Were the redsox really after helton?

by jaxROXdisciple on Nov 1, 2005 9:49 PM MST

i read this story shortly after epstien resigned.
it gives some information on the blown trade before the deadline which kept bigbie in a rockies uniform perminently. supposedly the rockies were offering shealy aswell. which makes me wonder if the redsox were really trying to get helton instead of shealy.the redsox may have dropped out because the rockies werent trading helton. even though helton trade rumors loomed. the redsox re-signed varitek ofcourse last offseason. even though shoppach was ready for the bigs. this tells me the redsox arent have no patience with prospects.competing teams never do have patience for prospects any way. i posted this on theory on espns boards i wanted to see what everyone here thinks.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/11/01/intentional_walk/

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Prospects

Teams like the Red Sox, Yankees, and Cardinals generally get little contribution from their farm systems because their fans put so much pressure on them to win and thus they can't afford to wait on prospects to develop, so you're right in that respect. Those teams would rather have a "proven" commodity at a given position than an unproven prospect. Basically, the theory is that they'd rather have a guaranteed .280 with 20 homers and 80 RBI than a guy who could hit .300 with 35 homers and 100 RBI, but could also hit .240 with 15 homers and 40 RBI.

I never heard anything about Helton potentially being involved, but trading for Shealy would make little sense for the Red Sox since buyers at the trade deadline generally want proven veterans rather than prospects. Certainly the Red Sox weren't complaining about Varitek's production this season, but for every Varitek there are five guys who unnecessarily block a top or even above-average prospect from getting his shot in the bigs.

by Rox Fan in TN on Nov 1, 2005 11:44 PM MST reply actions

Deeper thoughts

First off, I hadn't read anything much concerning Helton other than the columnist from Baltimore who wanted to create some readers by including him in a trade there early in the season. However, the Red Sox would be one of a select group of teams out there that could afford a Helton size contract... so your theory holds some water, jax. The other names in the trade would have to be different, though, depending on how much of the contract the Sox were willing to take on.

I want to bring up something Rox Fan in TN wrote above and that's the bit about impatient fans in the big baseball markets like Boston, New York and St. Louis. If we include LA in that sentence, which is also a big market with impatient fans, then we can get a a better idea as to why a disciple of the new "Moneyball" way of thinking like Depodesta was fired so quickly into his program.

Those type of 'new' GM's will never work in the big markets for just that simple reason. The fans want stars who hit for monster numbers and they aren't willing to be patient with any type of rebuilding through a new type of player development program. The smaller markets can take their time readjusting their drafting philosophy in order to compete through the farm system against the big money bags like New York because the fans have come to the realization the revenue system in MLB isn't fair like it is in the NFL where a Greenbay can compete against a team from NYC.

Bringing that thought home here to Denver and you could also argue that the Billy Bean philosophy won't work here either despite the fact we are not a big league market. I believe someone brought up the fact that O'Dowd traded for Jeff Cirillo, who fit the 'Moneyball' profile, yet we all know he was a dud (although he did net us Brian Fuentes, but that was a different thing). Coors Field demands power hitters at certain spots in the lineup and most times those type of ball players aren't so concerned with taking pitches and all that Billy Beanie crap.

by roxhead on Nov 2, 2005 1:03 AM MST up reply actions

Theo versus Larry

I doubt that Helton had entered the conversation and the return doesn't seem equitable at all, but with all the infromation that is coming out about the two men in charge of the Red Sox I wouldn't be surprised if Lucchino would have been more in favor of that deal then picking up Shealy, while Epstein seems to look more at the bigger picture and probably liked Shealy.

This saga has gotten more and more interesting as it cascades into some very strange ramifications. Unfortunately, for the Rox, I'm wondering if the fallout means the Shoppach for Bigbie deal will be quashed a second time. I expect more Helton rumors to swirl this offseason, especially after Konerko signs, and although it's slim, I think there's a minute chance that we could actually move him.

by Rox Girl on Nov 2, 2005 2:45 AM MST reply actions

witasick resigns with A's

the redsox were prepared to send minor leaguers such as adam stern, abe alverez, and kelly shoppach and an unnamed minor leaguer in the deal. according to dan shaughnessy's article. i havent heard any solid rumors involving helton yet. but this hot stove season will be very interesting. especially with the lack of big talent in free agency this year. witasick re-signed with the A's with a 2 year deal. there goes one coors proven pitcher. hopefully Dejean pans out.

by jaxROXdisciple on Nov 2, 2005 3:38 AM MST reply actions

Further commentary

Sherriff Sully has some more useful tidbits about the inner workings of the Red Sox and columnist Dan Shaugnessy's own possible conflicts of interest in covering the story.

It shouldn't be long before Byrnes in Arizona gives his take now, that's what I'm looking for since he was the most smeared by the whole thing.

by Rox Girl on Nov 2, 2005 6:37 AM MST reply actions

Sox

I hope the Sox weren't after Helton, his contract v. the amount of porduction he'd put out outside of Coors just doen't thrill me.
Varitek v. Shoppach The Sox resigned Varitek because he's the team leader, the rock in the clubhouse. Shoppach hit .233/.320 with 22hr's in AAA in 2004, he was not at that time a viable option. He has a shot at the backup position for next year but he simply has not earned a starting role.
Boston does value it's young players though. Youkilis, Papelbon, hansen, Meredith, Nixon, Shoppach, Dinardo, Hanley Ramirez, Manny Delcarmen and Abe Alvarez all played for the Sox this season and were all products of the Sox minorleagues and most are expected to contribute next season.
Dustin Pedroia is expected to be the Sox starting 2B next season and Jon Lester and Anibal Sanchez are expected to contribut soon in the bullpen or rotation.

by crimsonliederhosen @ Purple Row on Nov 6, 2005 11:01 AM MST reply actions