Official: Jennings dealt to Houston

by Rox Girl on Dec 12, 2006 3:04 PM MST in Rockpile

For Jason Hirsh, Taylor Buchholz and Willy Taveras!

This is quite a haul for JJ and Miguel Ascencio, I'm expecting that the Astros must have a contract extension already mostly finished. Hirsh is their top pitching prospect, Buchholz isn't far behind. Dan O'Dowd was just mentioned this afternoon by Baseball America as being one of the best GM's in the business in constructing trades, and I was about to question that until this news came in. Woohoo!

Here's more on Hirsh BA's top 10 PCL prospect list where he ranked #9:

Hirsh stood out with his major league presence on the mound, which opponents believe plays as great a role in his success as his overall stuff. That said, the 6-foot-8 righthander threw his pitches on an intimidating downhill plane. He has good command of a lively 91-93 mph, a late-breaking slider and an effective changeup that he'll throw in any count.

"His numbers speak for themselves," Moore said. "He got off to a little bit of a slow start, but after that he had great game after great game. He had a plan and didn't vary from it. With his makeup and mindset, he has a chance to have a lot of success at the next level."

"We Got Fleeced" says Astros blogger rastronomicals at Crawfish Boxes.

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Comments

Holding my breath

Holding my breath on this one until there is more confirmation but Rosenthal's information is accurate then this is really great for the Rockies.

by MADness on Dec 12, 2006 3:07 PM MST reply actions

STOP THE PRESSES.....PURPS ALERT

I think we need to temporarily cancel the PURPS voting as Jason Hirsh (Houston's #1 Prospect) would now be included in the Rockies' Prospect list. Where I'd assume he'll be battling for a Top 3 spot.

Wow...what a deal. I love it!

by sg8335aa on Dec 12, 2006 3:12 PM MST reply actions

I'm for that idea,

I'd definitely have him in my top 5, I'm guessing #4 right now behind Tulo, Iannetta and Stewart, but ahead of Franklin Morales and Dexter Fowler.

by Rox Girl on Dec 12, 2006 3:16 PM MST up reply actions

WOW

Please god let this be true.

If it is, I take back every bad thing I've ever said about O'Dowd.

Fantastic trade.

R you in?

by malakian on Dec 12, 2006 3:14 PM MST reply actions

Holy Hell

Nicely done, DOD. Center field is a problem solved, and we add starting pitching depth. Hirsh in particular has a chance to be just as good for us as Jennings was.

Suppose this means we're looking at Cook-Francis-Kim-Fogg-Buchholz/Rivera/Bautista/Hirsh/Jimenez in the rotation, which I think I'm OK with.

Godspeed, JJ - you battled your ass off for us for four-plus solid seasons. Keep throwing that cutter and attacking the strike zone, kid, and you'll be just fine.

Die-hard Rockies fan. On the bandwagon since 4/2/93. Not giving up my seat. EVER.

by Franchise26 on Dec 12, 2006 3:14 PM MST reply actions

Jennings will do well in the JuiceBox

I think the Astros will be happy with this trade as long as he signs an extension with them. Especially, if he takes them to the top of a weak NL Central this year.

by Rox Girl on Dec 12, 2006 3:17 PM MST up reply actions

Can somebody enlighten ne?

I expected this deal would be made, but a quick glance at Hirsh and Buchholz doesn't reveal evident and immediate returns - 6.04 and 5.89 ERAs, with 3-4 and 6-10 records, respectively. Now, I'm sure that there's something which I'm missing, but can someone tell me why we're targeting them?

I must admit, while this deal was predestined to be made for the whole winter, I'm completely neutral about it. It could turn out well. Or it could be a continuation of management's fixation with winning in a nebulous future, instead of winning now.

Info on Hirsh and Buchholz much needed so I have the full story. Thanks!

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time, and you annoy the pig. -- Mark Twain

by Silverblood on Dec 12, 2006 3:16 PM MST reply actions

Okay... answered my own question

Top pitching prospect for Houston. Hmm...

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You waste your time, and you annoy the pig. -- Mark Twain

by Silverblood on Dec 12, 2006 3:17 PM MST up reply actions

and....

Burch was Houston's #1 prospect in 2004 but dropped a bit afterwards due to injury..etc. Anyway, 2006 was his rookie year, so grade his stats with a grain of salt. He still has very good potential

by sg8335aa on Dec 12, 2006 3:19 PM MST up reply actions

Insane in AAA

He had an amazing streak of dominance in Triple A last year before being called up in the summer.

"named the 2006 Pacific Coast League Pitcher of the Year...held a current, franchise-record, 12-game winning streak with the Express...posted a 1.28 ERA (15ER/105.2IP) over that streak since 5/8 (17G)...posted a club-record 46.2 consecutive innings without an earned run during the streak"

Basically he dominated the minors and then held his own in the majors as a rookie.

by MADness on Dec 12, 2006 3:27 PM MST up reply actions

YES!

I am estatic Id be eeven happier if we didn't trade Asencio. Also does that mean we have a platoon of Taveras and Sully in CF or just Taveras

Die-hard Rockies fan. On the bandwagon since 7/6/93 (Day I was born). Not giving up my seat. EVER.

by rockiesfan4ever on Dec 12, 2006 3:23 PM MST reply actions

Guessing

I would imagine that Taveras would start and Sullivan would either be traded or be a bench player.

Never know with Hurdle though.

by MADness on Dec 12, 2006 3:28 PM MST up reply actions

If this coincides with Fogg

not being tendered, I'm going to petition the vatican for "prophet" status.

On second thought, I have more crow to eat than gloating. Props to rox girl for debating against me regarding the size of the return for Jennings. I doubted a major haul, she expected someone to cave, and right now, that looks to be the case.

Excellent deal in every sense of the word. Ascensio had almost no fit in the bullpen this season, and Hirsh and Buchholz puts two talented players at 3 and 4 in the rotation. Taveras should be an improvement in center.

I'm trying to study for a late afternoon final, I don't need this added excitement while I try to cram...

by David "ohno" on Dec 12, 2006 3:28 PM MST reply actions

Score

Hirsh and Taveras was a good deal for JJ.

Getting Buchholz added in for such a minor piece as Ascencio (even if he does have potential) makes this is an unquestionable great trade for the Rockies.

by MADness on Dec 12, 2006 3:30 PM MST up reply actions

If this does go down

O'Dowd might have his extension in hand before the start of the season. We didn't get a major piece to move forward in '07, but with this move, our future as a competitive franchise has really been strengthened.

Hell, with two new starting pitchers with plus potential, and a centerfielder that can be at least average, why can't we hang in it in '07 now?

by David "ohno" on Dec 12, 2006 3:34 PM MST up reply actions

Might not be done

While we could use Taveras, he might provide more value to a team that (over) values him more than we do - namely the Marlins.

I will be excited to see how Taveras fits in here, how he improves and will be happy to have him in center rather than our other options but if we can trade him for some more talent then I won't lose any sleep over trotting out one or all of our options next season.

by MADness on Dec 12, 2006 3:50 PM MST up reply actions

Or we deal Sullivan

there could be a market for a guy like Cory, especially in Florida. I think this also makes Barmes more expendable, who was being kept around in anticipation of taking a crack at centerfield. I think we'll have to make a few more minor moves.

I'm not so sure Taveras' value is much higher than Sullivan's to the point where it would be beneficial to take the return over what could be provided on the field for Colorado.

Side note: Looking at Dewan's defensive numbers from 2007, Taveras might be the best defensive centerfielder the Rockies have had in franchise history. He's Gold Glove worthy.

by David "ohno" on Dec 12, 2006 3:53 PM MST up reply actions

Taveras' D

Definitely a strong point for him, and a weak point for Sullivan. I'm getting more sold on him the more I learn about his skills in the field.

by Rox Girl on Dec 12, 2006 3:55 PM MST up reply actions

Sullivan's D

I really, really like Cory Sullivan defensively in center though the stats and many pundits apparently don't agree with me.

He isn't Andrew Jones or Torii Hunter in thier primes but he is, IMO, a very very good center fielder.

Just my 2 cents.

by MADness on Dec 12, 2006 4:10 PM MST up reply actions

Some stats do like him,

He doesn't misplay balls, but he doesn't get to as many as he should is the main problem. His arm is decent, but Taveras has a gun. Willy's definitely an upgrade, Houston's given up a lot on outfield defense this offseason by putting Lee and Burke out there over Taveras and Lane.

by Rox Girl on Dec 12, 2006 4:16 PM MST up reply actions

I prefer Willy T

Don't get me wrong, I think that we are better with Willy T than we are with Sullivan. The difference however isn't going to be huge but it will hopefully be noticeable.

If we can get a lot more for Willy T than we can for Sullivan then it just becomes a matter of optimizing value and increasing our assets.

If someone like the Marlins is stupid and wants to trade us a quality pitching prospect then I don't see how we can pass that up easily.

by MADness on Dec 12, 2006 3:59 PM MST up reply actions

I was thinking about this, too

The Marlins were supposedly willing to offer Yusmeiro Petit for Willy T earlier this off-season, I'd almost prefer him or another of the Marlins young pitchers.

Taveras has the big time speed though, and his arm is much much better than Juan Pierre's was, even though his batting contact skills are less right now.

by Rox Girl on Dec 12, 2006 3:54 PM MST up reply actions

I'm right there with you

Yeah, not too much studying getting done at UItR headquarters at the moment. I'm trying to find official confirmation, media reaction... I even went over to the FanHome message board (or as I like to call it, the House of Negativity - I generally avoid that board like the plague) but there hasn't been much activity over there regarding the trade yet.

It's been a good long while since the Rockies have done something this interesting and inspiring in an offseason. Let's enjoy it!

Die-hard Rockies fan. On the bandwagon since 4/2/93. Not giving up my seat. EVER.

by Franchise26 on Dec 12, 2006 3:31 PM MST up reply actions

Yes!!!

Am I dreaming? pinches self Nope?

This is great news. I am extremely pleased at what DOD was able to get for JJ.

Hopefully an official press release comes out soon!

by avsfan4ever33 on Dec 12, 2006 3:31 PM MST reply actions

They're announcing it right now!!!

WE'RE OFFICIAL!! SWEET DEAL!

At the official site.

by Rox Girl on Dec 12, 2006 3:32 PM MST reply actions

Purpura presser

Houston GM is talking now at a press conference - there's video at MLB.com you can access through the Rockies site. Says he's excited about adding a number two starter and a quality bullpen arm. I didn't know we'd traded Ramon Ramirez, too... oh, wait, he's talking about Asencio? Whatever, dude...

Die-hard Rockies fan. On the bandwagon since 4/2/93. Not giving up my seat. EVER.

by Franchise26 on Dec 12, 2006 3:34 PM MST reply actions

Buchholz

Any official confirmation that Buccholz is included as well though?

Everything I see so far still has it as Taveras and Hirsh.

by MADness on Dec 12, 2006 3:37 PM MST up reply actions

Yes, Purpura mentioned him as part

of the talent given up.

by Rox Girl on Dec 12, 2006 3:40 PM MST up reply actions

Re: Buchholz

Yeah, he's part of the deal - Pupura just mentioned him at the presser, saying that he's 'not big league ready'. That's news to Buchholz himself, I'm sure.

Die-hard Rockies fan. On the bandwagon since 4/2/93. Not giving up my seat. EVER.

by Franchise26 on Dec 12, 2006 3:40 PM MST up reply actions

Dollars

So how much additional cash does this give us and where do we spend it?

by Roberbola on Dec 12, 2006 3:36 PM MST reply actions

Hirsh and Taveras are still at the minimum,

I believe Buchholz might be arby eligible this season, but I have to look that up. It's more likely that this is his last non-arbitration year. In all the three of them should be getting less than $1.5 million next season which means we save $4 million plus.

This is a good point because it probably means we can make a stronger bid for Rod Barajas. Why would we do that and tender Yorvit? We could trade one of them (probably Torrealba) come the end of Spring training once we're sure Iannetta is ready to go. Catchers usually fetch a nice premium.

The other option is to go after another relief arm, but there aren't many of those left.

by Rox Girl on Dec 12, 2006 5:51 PM MST up reply actions

options

Perhaps we could look at somebody who was non-tendered today? Marcus Giles, anyone?

by Roberbola on Dec 12, 2006 6:02 PM MST up reply actions

I'd almost rather have Kaz/Carroll

Giles appears to be dropping off a cliff in production the last couple of seasons. I know San Diego will take a chance on him and he'll turn out to be an All-Star and lead them to another first round playoff disaster, but he's the type of player that would turn into Mark Bellhorn for us.

by Rox Girl on Dec 12, 2006 6:05 PM MST up reply actions

don't disagree with you there

Giles has dropped off a cliff the last couple of years...some of it is due to injury to be sure, but I had him figured for a perennial all-star a few years ago.

It is a somewhat recognizable name and could possibly be a moderate box-office draw...ok, maybe not.

Other nontenders that I noted: Joel Piniero, V. Zambrano, Alex Gomez (he of the clutch 2006 playoffs), Chin-Hui Tsao...oh wait.

by Roberbola on Dec 12, 2006 6:49 PM MST up reply actions

Chris Reitsma?

Weren't the Rockies interested in trading for him last winter?

He could be a decent option out of the pen (if healthy).

R you in?

by malakian on Dec 12, 2006 6:54 PM MST up reply actions

Kudos Dan!

For not caving in, and overpaying JJ in this crazy pitching market right now. He stuck to his guns, and he knew Houston had to make this deal. Also kudos on the attempt to trade Todd to the Angels (if this is true). I will miss Todd as much as everyone else, and he has meant a lot to this franchise. But, if we can make a similar deal with another team, it will help strengthen the core of this team for years with the money saved on his contract. Dan, if you build it (the team) they (the fans) will come!

by easccp on Dec 12, 2006 3:37 PM MST reply actions

Geez...

as a Twins fan, I really wanted Jennings, but man, Houston just basically traded their Garza (Hirsh), their Scott Baker (Buchholz), and a much better Denard Span (Taveras) for Jennings. That is a RIDICULOUS price. Fleece trade of the last couple years (since Kaz/Zambrano), no doubt about it. Congrats Rox fans.

by DJSkillz on Dec 12, 2006 3:38 PM MST reply actions

He pulled it off

We got someone to overpay.

I was losing faith here the last few weeks that we could do it.

by MADness on Dec 12, 2006 3:47 PM MST up reply actions

Nice

I just registered on this site right before this news came out. I'm glad my first post gets to be a positive one. This is a fantastic deal for the Rox! Great job by DOD here.

by cofan17 on Dec 12, 2006 3:42 PM MST reply actions

Welcome, by the way!

Hopefully you always come with such good news. Maybe next time it could be a Clint Barmes for Anibal Sanchez or something,

by Rox Girl on Dec 12, 2006 5:46 PM MST up reply actions

Confirmed

JJ + Ascencio for Taveras, Hirsh + Buccholz.

So sweet.

Even getting back young players this trade may give us a better starting rotation next year than if we had kept Jennings.

Hirsh may not match Jennings' performance but he very well could come close (and there seems to be a good chance that he will be better in the long-term) and even if Buccholz struggles he has the stuff to likely outperform Josh Fogg.

Between Buccholz, U-ball and Bautista I finally feel confident that we will have one young, talented starting pitcher step up next year and solidify the bottom of the starting rotation.

by MADness on Dec 12, 2006 3:44 PM MST reply actions

Wow...

I'm stunned. I would have been happy with Hirsh + Taveras, but Buccholz too? Definitely props to Dan O'Dowd...this is a great deal. I look forward to seeing the newer, taller Jason on the mound in a mere four months.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

by rockiesfan06 on Dec 12, 2006 3:55 PM MST reply actions

Buchholz

Any thoughts on his supposed failed physical last week? Just a publicity stunt perhaps?

Obviously it wasn't a concern for the Rockies, which is how it should be.

Is this deal pending a physical or anything btw?

by avsfan4ever33 on Dec 12, 2006 4:03 PM MST reply actions

Buccholz's physical

After the failed physical story came out, Buccholz stated that he had not taken a physical since before Spring Training of last year (or maybe it was 2005), which he passed.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

by rockiesfan06 on Dec 12, 2006 4:04 PM MST up reply actions

Yeah, I think this deal is pending physicals

But there's nothing to worry about there. The White Sox nixed the deal before the physical took place but just used that as an excuse to back out. Buchholz has had arm issues in the past with bone chips in his elbow, but he pitched healthy this season and the Rockies looked over his medical reports from the Astros doctors before making the trade.

by Rox Girl on Dec 12, 2006 4:09 PM MST up reply actions

Physicals

According to Purpurra's comments on his press conference there are no pending physicals. Apparently Houston doctors talked to Colorado doctors and it's all good.

by Roberbola on Dec 12, 2006 4:14 PM MST up reply actions

must have missed that, thnx

for the catch.

by Rox Girl on Dec 12, 2006 4:17 PM MST up reply actions

RotoTimes on the ball

I am scanning Taveras to Florida rumors on the net and I ended up at a RotoTimes site and they already had Taveras' player page changed to a Rockies logo, etc. Pretty quick (even if the process of making changes is automated it still means that someone hand entered the trade data).

Just a random note, I find it slightly interesting.

by MADness on Dec 12, 2006 4:13 PM MST reply actions

I just linked this in the thread below

but the Rockies officially tendered Fogg and Torrealba contracts, Chin Hui Tsao was not tendered.

by Rox Girl on Dec 12, 2006 4:25 PM MST reply actions

Woo!

by Russ Oates on Dec 12, 2006 4:27 PM MST reply actions

According to CBSportsline.com

Willy T- Rank 19
Hirsch- 156
Buchholz- 147

Jennings- 55
Asencio- 173

Sully-26

Die-hard Rockies fan. On the bandwagon since 7/6/93 (Day I was born). Not giving up my seat. EVER.

by rockiesfan4ever on Dec 12, 2006 4:42 PM MST reply actions

Wow

um wow....wow.....

Dowd finally did it. And Houston blinked. This is great news!

by Redhawk on Dec 12, 2006 4:49 PM MST reply actions

Yes!

DOD says...

http://hometown.aol.com/zepp36/dodh.jpg

by DeepPurple on Dec 12, 2006 5:15 PM MST reply actions

cute

So true, though. Speaking of O'Dowd, I've put up a new poll, by the way.

by Rox Girl on Dec 12, 2006 5:16 PM MST up reply actions

Buchholz

I was talking to my dad about the trade - he said he heard O'Dowd on one of the local radio stations (probably The Fan) saying that Buchholz could factor as a back-end bullpen guy for the Rox. I don't know what kind of stuff he has (my BA Prospect Guide 2006 says his fastball comes in from the high 80s to low 90s and that he has a plus curve) but that's just some food for thought.

It's nice to see such universally positive reaction about something the Rox front office does. We don't see that all too often. Mark at Bad Altitude hates it, but then again, he hates a lot of things (which is what makes him a compelling read, even though I don't often agree with him), and I think he's approaching the deal as though Taveras is the centerpiece from our end, which isn't right.

Die-hard Rockies fan. On the bandwagon since 4/2/93. Not giving up my seat. EVER.

by Franchise26 on Dec 12, 2006 5:54 PM MST reply actions

What is the web address...

for Bad Altitude?

Jason L. Evansville, IN

by jlot10 on Dec 12, 2006 5:58 PM MST up reply actions

Here you go

http://badaltitude.baseballtoaster.com/

It's also in the links section on the right.

by Russ Oates on Dec 12, 2006 5:59 PM MST up reply actions

Thanks

Jason L. Evansville, IN

by jlot10 on Dec 12, 2006 6:03 PM MST up reply actions

I know he's such the lovable curmudgeon

Kind of like Andy Rooney on 60 Minutes. That's how I expect Mark to turn out fifty or so years from now. Obviously, most of us see Hirsh as the central figure as far as the Rockies are concerned with the other two as bonuses. Plus, if Taveras is as good defensively as he was last season, that's a powerful throw in for the Rockies.

I don't buy the theory that a lack of power and plus speed doesn't translate well to the park, either. Look at what Dave Roberts did to us last season. Seven hits in 27 AB's isn't spectacular, but he also walked five times, stole six bases scored five runs and took twelve years off the life of our starters due to stress. I think with the right approach he can be successful at the top of the order.

by Rox Girl on Dec 12, 2006 6:03 PM MST up reply actions

More on Willy Taveras

I gave rastronomicals a few tidbits about Jennings and Ascencio (you can follow the link at the bottom of the lead in to this thread) but he gave me a book on Willy T:

Most though not all Astro fans will be sad to see Taveras go, although almost all Astro fans are at the same time aware of the deficiencies in his game. He will absolutely have to raise his OBP from the .330's where it's been these first two years of his career if he wants to stick in the majors, no matter what else he brings to the table. Taveras is impatient at the plate, in large part because he so likes to put wood on the ball and start running. But a player like him should strike out 40 times a year, not 100. And he will never ever hit home runs at a rate greater than 1:750 or so.

If he's so lousy at so many things, why then do I say that Astro fans will be sorry to see him go? Well, for one thing, Taveras tends to lunge at the ball in a way that gets him a head start towards first base. And he's got an uncanny knack for making contact while doing just that. But we Astro fans imagined that Willy would start batting flat-footed. If he could make contact lunging at the ball, imagine what he might do if he batted properly, reserving the swinging bunt stuff for special occasions? Doubles into the gap, no, triples into the gap. No, he'll never hit homers,. but it's not hard to imagine a lot of doubles, and 20 triples.

Defensively, Taveras is near the top of the NL. He has a strong, extremely accurate gun. You're I'm sure aware of how he threw out three Cubs at the plate in three consecutive games early in '05? They stopped running so much on Willy after that, but he still piles up outfield assists. More so in 2005, and less in 2006, Taveras would take bad, sometimes stupid, routes to the ball. His blazing speed sometimes allowed him to make up for his error, someitmes it didn't. But he was better in 2006. It's important to note the learning curve on defense, because it indicates that hoping for offensive improvement is not a pipe dream. Anyway, I believe not that he could win Gold Gloves around the turn of the decade, but that he should. That is, if he can stay in the league with his bat.

Last and maybe most importantly, Willy can be absolutely electric to watch. Down the stretch in '05, and during his 30-game hit streak in '06, he just had a way of igniting the team around him. That seems so unscientific, but there is just no other way to put it. After ANOTHER shortstop was pressured by Willy's speed into making ANOTHER half-bobble, and he beat out ANOTHER infield hit, and he started clapping his hands up the line the way he does . . . I seen it a bunch. If he can show any kind of improvement at all (and he should, considering what I've said about the learning curve on defense, and the fact that he only turns 25 on Christmas) he should be a big fan favorite at Coors.

This sounds nice...

by Rox Girl on Dec 12, 2006 6:19 PM MST reply actions

i'm not sold on taveras, and also...

well first of all, let me say that my favorite part of this means no darin erstad. not that erstad was ever mentioned as more than a vague rumor for the CF problem, but even that sent chills down my spine. brrrrrrrr.

beyond that im not sold on this deal in its entirety yet. hirsh and bucholz are fine. good, great, hopefully at least one of them can fill in with significant innings next year. but i dont like taveras much. the guy gets an extra base hit about once every solar eclipse and doesnt have the OBP you want out of a leadoff guy. i know his defense is good but im not comfortable with him getting 600 ABs yet. show me you can do more than single and steal a bag every once in a while. also, maybe more importantly, i want to see the $$$ we saved put to good use on holliday or atkins asap. if monfort doesnt want to overpay for pitching right now becasue the market's bad, that's fine, but make sure you put it to use somewhere else.

Rockies in October.

by LarryB303 on Dec 12, 2006 6:23 PM MST reply actions

ShhH! Don't remind DOD

that E-R-S-T-... is still available, he might get ideas with the extra money he has.

Anyway, I want to see Taveras this Spring before I completely make up my mind on that part myself, but the pitchers are solid, Hirsh in particular, but Buchholz and Taveras are just the kind of questionable throw ins that turn solid deals into Liriano/Nathan/Bonser for Pierzynski type hijacks. Remember at the time, Bonser was a failed prospect and Liriano had some big injury concerns. Buchholz is the one that now has the injury/inconsistency concerns, and Willy T hasn't shown the same patience in the bigs that he had in the minors. The key to me is that the skills are there, Rockies coaches just need to get them out now.

by Rox Girl on Dec 12, 2006 6:35 PM MST up reply actions

agreed

im not saying its not a trade they shouldnt have done. clearly were getting great, great value. even if hirsh or bucholz never catch on the whole package probably works out better for us than having jennings around for 06 and getting nothing more than a compensatory pick for him. i mean, it's fine, i'm satisfied, it's a deal we had to make. im just cautious about overstating the relevance of a guy like taveras- because i think hes the kind of guy who gets a lot of hype and ends up being drastically overrated because he's fast and makes webgems and such. frankly im not sold on him solving the CF problem, case closed, no need to worry about it anymore (like most posters seem to be).

oh yeah, and if hirsh and bucholz become liriano and bonser, even if it's 2-3 years from now, ill be sure to go back to this thread and delete my posts. haha.

Rockies in October.

by LarryB303 on Dec 12, 2006 6:41 PM MST up reply actions

yep, obviously that's an extreme

And I'll probably regret making that comparison, as someone I'm sure will try to throw it back at me. But I was meaning only to compare the trades and not really the players. Buchholz or Hirsh don't have the ceiling of Liriano, but both have higher upsides than Nathan and Bonser. Taveras' upside appears to be a Dave Roberts type player that can actually defend center field, but his downside somewhat lower if he doesn't improve at the plate.

by Rox Girl on Dec 12, 2006 6:51 PM MST up reply actions

Reasonable short-term

While it is possible that Taveras could turn into a good enough hitter to be an all-star caliber player it sure doesn't seem likely.

If we didn't have such an abysmal hitter in CF last year Taveras wouldn't be an upgrade at all.

That said, he should give us our short-term solution in center while we wait to either acquire a much better centerfielder via free-agency or trade or wait for Dexter Fowler to develop.

by MADness on Dec 12, 2006 7:37 PM MST up reply actions

Good job DOD

As I mentioned a few days ago about my opinion on this possible trade, I am happy, if not more happy, about this trade going through. I was hoping DOD wasn't going to pass and take some other offer. I think this is a very good trade on both sides. Jennings, as we know, is a very good #2 or #3 starter. He's very competitive and his numbers last year (despite the losing record based on poor run support) show how much he has improved, trusted his stuff, and become the type of pitcher the Rockies drafted #1. I was surprised to see that Miguel Asencio was included in the deal. That was probably one of the hold-ups was who else to include in the trade. Although Asencio has upside, I wasn't too bummed to see him go. He has a good chance of making their bullpen this year. As for the Rockies, they got their center fielder that they've been searching for this off-season (that is if he isn't turned around and traded to some other team) who has great speed, a really good arm. I think he's an upgrade to both Sullivan, Freeman, Spilborghs, and anyone else they want to throw out there. I'm also excited to see Jason Hirsh pitch as he has really been terrific the past two seasons in the Astros organization. He was basically the Astros version of Jeff Francis in the minor leagues. He's got tremendous upside and hopefully we'll get to see him in the rotation. Buchholz is one who i see as a long reliever for us next year. With Jennings gone, I see Cookie stepping into the #1 slot followed by Jeffrey Francise, Hirsh, B.K. and then Fogg (or Jimenez, Bautista). Despite losing Jennings - our #1 guy, career wins leader, homegrown, and a heck of competitor - this was the right move because chances were very slim he wouldn't have been a Rockie in 2008. Kudos to DOD!

by GenRfan on Dec 12, 2006 8:08 PM MST reply actions

i envy you all

we got chad moeller and bubba crosby, you get a number 1 pitching prospect. being a reds fan can suck sometimes. at least we have the number one pitching prospect in all of baseball. that's some consolation.

and weakening the asstros is always a wonderful thing.

Come worship at the Church of Baseball with Sister Daedalus!

by Daedalus on Dec 12, 2006 8:33 PM MST reply actions

I'm surprised Taveras

is taking so much heat in this trade! Keep in mind the options are Sullivan, Erstad, and Finley...

He's the best option left, and even if the improvement is incremental, we win on that account.

What's lost in most of this is that Taveras turns 25 this month, the same age of Sullivan when he entered the league! Take a stroll over to fangraphs.com, and you'll see that Taveras has improved on his BB rate each season in the bigs, and his BB rates in the minors were pretty solid. His BABIP, though still above league average, took a slight hit, and that number naturally increases at Coors Field.

All Taveras has to do is continue developing. If the BB rate continues to go up, he'll be a very useful player. Just looking at the Bill James Handbook, he's projected to have a better year than both Sullivan and our first target, Dave Roberts. With the way Coors Field grass slows balls down, Taveras should have little trouble hitting over .300, and an OBP over .350 isn't out of the question. Did I forget to mention that Coors Field lowers K rates?

It's not like we just got Grady Sizemore, but we might have landed Juan Pierre with more defense and a friendly contract, which could be worth a win or two in the standings. Is that huge? No, but this is no step backwards.

Let's not get hung up on his bigger flaws and forget to see that the Rockies landed a pretty useful player here, even if he's slightly better than league average.

by David "ohno" on Dec 12, 2006 9:35 PM MST reply actions

Geez...

WHY does this have to occur right in the middle of finals for me? Anyways, good trade. May hurt us in '07 unless Hirsh is ready, like, right now, but this should be great for us.

I've got a bad habit of picking losers... Rockies, Vanderbilt, Grizzlies...

by Rox Fan in TN on Dec 12, 2006 9:47 PM MST reply actions

I feel the pain of finals...

...except I finished my last one a mere two hours before the trade news broke. Talk about a nice break from school.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

by rockiesfan06 on Dec 12, 2006 10:35 PM MST up reply actions

I have one more

on Thursday. I guess you look at finals a lot differently when your final is your grade for the entire class. :)

I've got a bad habit of picking losers... Rockies, Vanderbilt, Grizzlies...

by Rox Fan in TN on Dec 12, 2006 10:44 PM MST up reply actions

Finals do suck

3 more to go on thursday.... but the big one got done tonight.

I won't have to analyze another circuit for at least a month.

Great trade by the way. Sad to see JJ go, but we got a very solid return for him. I wish him the best of luck.

by wolf213 on Dec 12, 2006 10:59 PM MST up reply actions

Analyzing circuits

probably can't be worse than analyzing how the law applies to ridiculous hypotheticals that have no chance of ever happening in real life.

I've got a bad habit of picking losers... Rockies, Vanderbilt, Grizzlies...

by Rox Fan in TN on Dec 12, 2006 11:12 PM MST up reply actions

True

I was a Criminal Justice major at one point and found out that I really don't like questions where there is no right answer.

Its not that debating isn't fun, its just the fact that humans are very picky creatures and no matter what logic presents it self, they are never going to think they are wrong.

That and I didn't want to spend the rest of my life trying to solve the same problems over and over just because people can't learn to respect and get along with each other. I have the upmost respect for the people who do chose that job for their career.

by wolf213 on Dec 12, 2006 11:32 PM MST up reply actions

I don't

normally feel old, being in my mid 20's. But seeing you guys talk about finals definitely makes me feel old.

by Knepster on Dec 12, 2006 11:43 PM MST up reply actions

Sorry

At 22 I feel old around here sometimes. :)

I've got a bad habit of picking losers... Rockies, Vanderbilt, Grizzlies...

by Rox Fan in TN on Dec 13, 2006 12:50 PM MST up reply actions

Haha

And I feel young around here being 18, and less than a mere 2 months away from 19 (superbowl sunday, the 4th)

by Rockiesbiggestfan on Dec 13, 2006 4:59 PM MST up reply actions

And you're not

the youngest here. I think someone is 13.

I think I have next week's poll topic.

by Russ Oates on Dec 13, 2006 5:06 PM MST up reply actions

Am I the Grandpa

around here at 30? Please tell me I'm not.

by Prospector on Dec 13, 2006 6:36 PM MST up reply actions

Of the regulars?

Maybe. I do know that we have at least one occasional poster who is older than you.

by Russ Oates on Dec 13, 2006 6:38 PM MST up reply actions

Also

just talked to one of my buddies from Houston who grew up there and moved back after college. He is upset at the trade and all of his friends feel the same. I hate to rub things in for fear it will come back to haunt me, but it felt good to hear how upset he was at the trade.

by Knepster on Dec 12, 2006 11:44 PM MST reply actions

Nice Deal

Good score for O'Dowd.

Hirsh is the key because the big three just took a hit.. let's hope he can fit right into the rotation at Camp Tucson.

Can we just time warp to Feb 2007 right now?

by roxhead on Dec 13, 2006 12:08 AM MST reply actions

Spring Training can not come soon enough...

I think I'm more excited for Spring Training this season than any other year in recent memory.

I can't wait to see what the 2007 Rockies team can do!

by avsfan4ever33 on Dec 13, 2006 7:21 AM MST up reply actions

Proven winner gone...more prospects in

While on paper this may have been a great trade, I'm still not sold on it, but how long is the Rockies management going to keep giving up starters for prospects? Eventually we have to stop trading for the future and try to win now. Why worry about homegrown talent if we are just going to trade it away the year before free agency? O'Dowd is good at making the future look bright while the present is horrible, and for some reason we Rox fans put up with it. I think now we have to start demanding that the Monforts and Dealing Dan O'Dowd start trying to win now, not off in the near future like we have for the past 4 years.

by its always next year on Dec 13, 2006 12:34 AM MST reply actions

In this case, I'm hoping the trade works for both

Now and next season, but I think your point is definitely valid. Really, trade or no trade, the Rockies have no excuse not to be competitive in the NL West in 2007, and I mean well into September, if not winning the thing. I know some would like to use the team's youth as that excuse, but given that the rest of the division is either also young (Arizona), old (San Francisco), both at the same time (Los Angeles) or just plain boring and mediocre (San Diego), I don't see why management should be able to use this as a reason for not winning in 2007. Fire the lot of them if they don't make it happen.

by Rox Girl on Dec 13, 2006 1:14 AM MST up reply actions

If

Monfort is to be believed in the Krieger piece, then the lot of them will be fired if we don't compete this year. While I can't wait for Hurdle to be canned, I (obviously) hope we win the division.

by Knepster on Dec 13, 2006 4:39 AM MST up reply actions

this season.

I wish we could edit our posts.

by Knepster on Dec 13, 2006 4:40 AM MST up reply actions

thats part of the reality

of being a team with a smaller budget. i see "next year"'s point, but the fact is, if we tried to sign every single one of our good players to long term deals, wed financially cripple ourselves and be unable to make any moves at all. plus not all of them would turn out to be worth the money. when your players are always at the risk of leaving through free agency and you cant afford to just ink them all without considering where else that money could be spent, youre forced to at least get SOMEthing in return for them. and if you're really lucky, somehow, some way, eventually youll get a bunch of young cheap players out of trades like this one that all start playing extremely well at the same time. then, theoretically, if you start winning, attendance goes up and payroll goes up with it and THEN you can start keeping players. see: 2006 detroit tigers, sort of. but until you make that leap, its foolish to keep every guy like jennings (good but not great) around when they want so much money. the "keep all our good players regardless of cost so we can win a few more games next season" philosophy doesnt work when your ultimate goal is to win a championship. im not totally sold on the trade either, but letting jennings go for nothing or resigning him to a payroll-crippling deal are worse alternatives in my mind. id rather take a shot at hirsh and/or bucholz developing long term and taking us deep in the playoffs with other key pieces kept in place because we freed up money to ink atkins/holliday long term than win 83 instead of 81 games in 2007.

Rockies in October.

by LarryB303 on Dec 13, 2006 8:20 AM MST up reply actions

PREACH IT BROTHER!

I'm sure the Oakland A's wish they could have kept Jason Giambi, or Tejada, or Molder, or Zito or...well it's a long list.

But they couldn't. They don't have enough money. Same with the Rockies. It's sad, and hard to see the players that have been productive go, but that's baseball. And the Rockies don't have a very good history of Dealin Dan making good deals to "trust" the Rockies to know who to keep and pay, and who (and WHEN) to trade.

This trade, looks great. I even like it this year. I really thing Taveras is the missing piece to our offense.

Though I'm a little worried about our rotation in 07. But I'm sold on the Rockies chance of winning in the NL west in 07. (unless the Dodgers get Vernon Wells...then the Rocks have to hope for a Wild Card)

by Redhawk on Dec 13, 2006 10:03 AM MST up reply actions