who thinks the rox wont be a .500 team in '07? (you know who you are, please read this)
during the past couple days ive been mixing it up with a few people on the boards here about the subject of what direction the rockies are heading in this year. in general, as anyone who checks the tuesday morning rockpile or last night's game thread can easily tell, i am of the opinion that its way to early to start making any drastic changes or worrying excessively. others share a different opinion.
first of all, before i begin: let me say that anything i say here is all in love, and i appreciate the opportunity to discuss the rockies with you. if ive offended anyone with my sarcasm or comments i apologize. i just get a little frisky when i talk about the rockies, as we all should.
anyhow im still buzzing from last night's yorvit-fueled thriller so i felt compelled to post some civilized comments about where i see the rockies going this year and why im 100% confident 2007 will be different than 2006. so lets get the ball rolling by getting all the givens and other things we know out of the way. yes, the rockies have not made the playoffs since 1995 nor have they finished a season over .500 since 2000. yes, they have recently shrunk their payroll and declined to spend "big bucks" on free agents when others in the NL west were more than willing to do so. yes, they have a pretty cheap ownership. and yes, as weve all seen, they are now a disappointing 6-8 and already 4 games back in the division.
but before you all take these facts and run with them you should really try to do the opposite of what most local sports columnists do when they write articles about the rockies. by which i mean, you should stop and think about who's on the team, what theyre capable of, and what direction the team is headed in as opposed to panicking and rushing to the conclusion that "well, theyve been bad for 6 straight years now so theres no way this year wont be 7." no! stop! wait! lets think/talk about this first!
- for starters, minus the 7-0 debacle to the giants on monday night, the rockies have been in every single one of their losses. none was by more than 3 runs, and 4 were by 1 run. im not implying that the outcome of 1 run games is purely determined by luck, but what if tony clark's ugly popup 2 run double doesnt fall last saturday night? what if jose cruz jr.'s 310 foot home run two sundays ago off cook gets knocked down just a tiny bit by by a gust of wind and ends up in brad hawpe's glove? what if matt holliday simply comes through with a sac fly (or better yet, a hit) against the dodgers last tuesday night with the bases loaded and 1 out in a tie game in the 8th inning? what if those 3 things all happened, we win those games, and are now 9-5? would we be having these heated discussions about firing hurdle or whatever else? of course not. but thats how close its been. its not like were getting blown out of games. were right... there. now im not totally exonerating hurdle or the team. they need to make plays. excuses arent wins. but from the perspective of asking "whats going on with the rockies? is 2007 just gonna be another 70-75 win season?" i think its important to note just how close we are to being at the top of the division.
- this is really just an extension of my last point. but here's 50 cents worth of free advice for all you out there that are ready to call the season a failure already: if youre going to be a big time rockies/baseball fan you need to get used to the concept of the irrelevance of small sample sizes. by which i mean: you need to understand that what happens over short periods of time is not always indicative of what will happen over long periods of time. there are literally millions of examples from throughout baseball history that i could use to pound this point into submission. i am completely overwhelmed in trying to choose which ones to use here. but i think these 2 make the point pretty nicely: the 2003 marlins started the season 6-9 and the 2002 angels started 6-14 (!). are you ready for the clever conclusion to that point? here it is, i bet you saw it coming... both those teams won the world series. for something more recent, albeit corresponding to an individual player as opposed to a team, remember that chris shelton guy who hit 10 home runs for the tigers last april? yeah, he finished the season with 16. he wasnt even on their postseason roster come october. the lesson, in a nutshell: in baseball, what happens over a short period of time is not always a good indicator of what will happen over a long period of time. and of course, subsequently, i encourage you all to take the first 14 games of the season with a grain of salt. i for one am strongly of the opinion that starting 5-7 in our first 12 games really isnt that bad considering how close all the losses were and the fact that 75% of those games took place on the road. yes, it would have been nice to win 6 or 7 of those. yes, making excuses doesnt move us up in the standings. but put simply, the rockies are better than a 5-7 team. once we get the opportunity to play more games at coors and stomp on some of the NL's doormats (im looking at you, washington, who the dbacks have already clobbered) our record is going to start looking a whole lot better.
- "ok", you say, "i understand this small sample size thing. i get it. but im still not convinced that were better than 6-8 at this point. im still not convinced were a playoff team, much less a .500 team." well of course youre entitled to your opinion. but stop and think (remember, we dont want to be a rocky mountain news or denver post writer here) before you write the team off. i know the rockies have been bad for a while now. but (and i say this with the least amount of sarcasm possible) you may be shocked to find out that that doesnt mean we'll be bad forever! yes, amazingly, scientific tests conducted by stanford university reseaerchers have shown that a sports team's performance on the field is actually capable of varying from season to season. strange but true. anyways, in order to try to convince you that we'll be a .500 team at WORST this year what id like to do is compare this season's roster to last season's roster. i dont want to micromanage this point and list the two rosters side by side and do an extensive analysis of every single difference, (thats been done very well by numerous people on this site over the course of the past couple months anyways). but just take 5 minutes and look at the 2006 roster compared to the 2007 one! the main upticks are this:
-the ianetta/torrealba platoon should end up absolultey crushing the production we got out of last year's catchers (danny ardoin and jd closser at the plate... shudder)
-3 of our 4 most important hitters probably have not quite peaked and should be at least a little better this year than last (which is saying something considering the 2006 campaigns they all had). most major leaguers peak in offensive production at age 27; hawpe turned 27 last june and atkins and holliday turned it during the offseason. im not saying any will suddeny turn into albert pujols. but all should be even better than last year.
-kaz matsui so far looks like a better version of jamey carrol who can steal bases. jamey has better plate discipline but if kaz keeps up the pace he's had going since last september, hes a definite upgrade over a guy that was an above average 2nd baseman already.
-helton is healthy again. sure looks like it anyways. im not saying hell hit like he did 5-10 years ago, but im confident hes going to better his 2005 and 2006 power numbers by a good margin.
-the rotation looks AMAZING so far. no, they wont keep up this pace, but we know what cook can do. now if we could just give him some run support... francis is a year older and a year wiser and should be entering his prime. lopez has been successful in the past and looks like hes regained a lot of confidence. hirsh was supposed to be ready for the majors and i think its pretty obvious so far that he is. and fogg looks pretty steady, like a better version of last year's foogg. certainly a respectable 5th starter. last year's rotation was great by rockies standards but it looks so far like this years will be even better.
meanwhile, the main downticks are this:
-taveras has been even worse than sullivan was so far. im pretty worried about him. but wait, lets go back to point #2... not time to panic yet.
-the pen has been shaky whereas last year it started out wonderfully. then again, last year it had a lot of really ugly stretches from about mid-june on when ray king and jose mesa got together and decided to stop getting people out. so really, the standard cant be set too high in comparing last year to this year.
so that's 2 downticks, which arent even necessarily downticks yet (taveras should be a whole lot better, and the bullpen should come together once hawkins stops pitching the 8th and we ditch kim, theres no lack of talent out there), compared to what i see as at least 6 upticks. put simply the rockies have unquestionably in my mind gotten significantly better than they were last year. 5 wins better, which would get us to .500? no doubt about it. 10 wins better, which would keep us in the wild card race well into september? possibly. 15 wins better, which might win us the wild card or even the division? probably not, but were closer to that than weve been in a long, long time. it probably sounds like rose colored glasses to many of you. but many of you are also too attached to the "theyve always been bad before, so therefore theyre going to be bad again!" idea i previously mentioned. im begging you... take some time. think about it. look at the changes weve made. consider how young the team was last year and what good a year of expeince did them. im telling you, all signs point upwards right now. but what about the 6-8 start? small sample size, my friend. small sample size.
- what about comparing the rockies to other local sports teams? this is tempting to do, especially considering their relative success compared to the rockies over the course of the past several years, but i urge you not to do so. (before i get into any of my analysis, id like to point out that the broncos didnt have a single winning record during their first 13 seasons, and didnt make the playoffs until their 18th year of existence. the nuggets had more success early in their existence but currently have won 1 playoff series in the last 19 years. food for thought.) anyways for starters, baseball is fundamentally different than basketball or football in that players that leave college (or high school) are not ready to contribute at the major league level for several years. additionally the rate of attrition for players that are drafted with high expectations is significantly higher in baseball than those two sports. im not saying there are never any highly touted busts in basketball or football, but go on wikipedia and look at the first rounds of the NBA, NFL, and MLB drafts from the past 10 years. theyll speak for themselves. beyond that, in baseball its pretty much impossible for one great draft pick to turn a team's fortunes around. but as john elway and carmelo anthony have shown in our own hometown, in football and basketball its much easier. yes, i know they both had help, its not like they truly did everything completely on their own, but the point is their impact on the team exceeds that of a great baseball player like a todd helton. what about building a team via free agency or trades, which the broncos and nuggets have also done? well, youve sort of got me there. the monforts learned a lesson from the mike hampton and denny neagle disasters and have decided to keep their pocketbooks closed for the most part recently. while this has kept us from even being in the running to land marquee players, it has also prevented us from drastically overpaying for mediorce ones (like gary matthews jr. this most recent offseason). im not a big fan of the monforts and i admit that the jury's out as to how important this development may or may not be. but if the money we havent spent in the past goes to locking up our current stars long term, i dont think theres too much of a reason to complain. we just had to endure 5 years of terrible baseball post hampton/neagle to get here. if it leads to 5 years of pennant contention as our current core works through their peak performance years and are supplemented by rising talent like tulo, ianetta, dexter fowler, franklin morales, etc., then it was probably worth it. and lesson learned about signing pitchers to 7 year deals as well, i dont think well be doing that again anytime soon. anyways, the point is: building a football or basketball team is much easier than building a baseball team when it comes to the draft. and while the nuggets and broncos have also done much better than the rockies in trades and free agency, theyve also had tons more payroll to work with. as for the avs, who ive conveniently avoided talking about so far in this point... well, theyre a damn well run franchise. again, in comparison to the rockies, they have an owner willing to open his checkbook to put a winner on the ice. they also consistently make fantastic personnel moves. but the money is the most significant difference. and although hockey has a farm system similar to baseball, "can't miss" hockey prospects are much less likely to miss than baseball prospects. basically im saying building a hockey team from the ground up is more like building a basketball or football team than it is a baseball team. baseball is unique like that.
- so now for the all important conclusion, id like to synthesize my previous points and try to explain why ive taken the laid back "lets wait and see what happens" approach. the most important point is probably #3, which is, the team is better than it was last year. probably significantly so, when you realize the holes in the lineup weve filled at catcher and shortstop. if you want to argue this with me... boy, i dont know what to tell you. youre really a no hoper pessimist at that point. moving from there to point #1, let stop and realize, hey, were almost never getting blown out! and thats definitely a sign of a great team. theres an old saying in baseball: youre gonna win about a third of your games no matter what and youre gonna lose about a third of your games no matter what. its what happens in that middle third that determines what kind of team you are. well, the rockies havent quite cashed in on every opportunity they could have in those "middle third" type games yet, but they been in almost every single one of them. were just a handful of plays away from being 8-6, or 9-5, or even 10-4. add to that point #2, about small sample sizes. are the rockies going to spend the whole season playing 9 out of every 14 games on the road? and are they going to lose more than 3/4 of their one run games? doubtful. the chips just havent fallen our way so far. but theyre going to, im 100% confident in it. that, my friends, is why im so sure were going to be AT LEAST a .500 team this year.
- better team with a key year of experience for young guys and 2 major lineup holes plugged
- no blowouts (ok, 1 blowout)
- SMALL SAMPLE SIZE
Eat. Drink. Be Merry. But the above FanPost does not necessarily reflect the attitudes, opinions, or views of Purple Row's staff (unless, of course, it's written by the staff [and even then, it still might not]).
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#1 is a great point
But #1 is a great point. Better the team at least be in every game and lose, that just get blown out each day.
And it speaks to the closeness of the team to competitiveness.
#2 I don't think anyone is arguing with. I don't see anyone saying Let's Blow Them Up after 14 games, but rather frustration setting in. I'm not calling for heads to roll (though admittedly I would like to see a regime change- though it ain't happening). I'm just not seeing the same level of positivness.
For example, you say "-tulo cant possibly be worse than barmes and has shown signs of breaking out and being much better."
Why does he have to be better? Why can't he be worse? He has the skills not to be, but if potential alone was the measure of an athlete's worth, Todd Van Poppel and Todd Marinovich would still be playing. If there is something beyond, "he sowed in double A that he could be" that's cool. I agree he has the potential to be MUCH better, but that doesn't mean he has to or he will. You can't bank on this.
Same goes for the catching situation. They definately COULD be better, but there is no guarentees.
Good stuff to chew on Larry!
by comedian on
Apr 18, 2007 9:31 AM MDT
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From the other side of the fence
1) Close games: You think this is good. This I think is bad. Good teams find ways to make the close game a win. The Rockies find ways to loose them. This to me is a sign of something. And it's not that we are good. I'll come back to this one in my conclusion, as I think this point is where we really differ in our opinion, and it's more then half full/half empty type of difference.
2) Small sample size: Yes, if you look at any point in a baseball season you will see ups and downs, for the World Series winner, and the team with the most looses. But I see a trend that is continuing for several years. So I'm basing some of this on a larger sample size.
3) Bad in the past does not equal bad now or in the future. I actually agree with this to some extent. But some organizations do have atmospheres/expectations of winning (Ex: Denver Broncos, Okla. Univ. Football, NY Yankees, St. Louis Cardinals) and others have atmospheres/expectations of loosing (Arizona Cardinals, Tampa Bay D-Rays, Univ. of Kansas Football). Which is a complex thing and if I had the full answer to this I'd be a bajillionaire. But in it's basic form, if you expect to win, you tend to win, if you expect to loose or try to not loose, you tend to loose. I'm afraid the Colorado Rockies are squarely and firmly at the moment in the "expect to loose" category. There is hope that it's not permanent: see Kansas State University Football or the Detroit Tigers
3 b) Our players are better: Yes I actually agree with on this. Which makes the loosing even more frustrating. I'm not sure I agree with you on "HOW" much better the players are though. To say Tulowitzki is definitely going to be good and not be a bust such as Bubba Crosby or K. Greene, is a little wishful thinking. Same with Iannetta. I also think Hawpe is a little over rated by the Colorado faithful. I love Helton, but again, he's not the same as he once was. As a whole I like our line up. But the fact is they haven't done it this year yet. Very troubling on a whole. Players do have career years, but they also have career low years too.....
- Comparing local sport teams. I agree with you on the whole. Denver is really spoiled as we have some local examples of well run teams, with expectations of winning. And one real clunker. I'd actually say the Rockies are one of the worst run organizations in organized professional sports. The Arizona Cardinals & Pittsburg Pirates are 2 that come to my mind in this category. Not only do the Rockies have an expectation of not winning, I don't think that is even a goal of the Rockies (not loosing money is the goal of the Rockies)
- Wait and see/ or Whadda gonna do `bout it now anyway. This is where we wildly differ and agree. I think firing Hurdle could be a good way of saying the Rockies won't tolerate loosing. A manager I believe accounts for about 5 games a season or as much as a 10 game swing (5-0 vs. 0-5) Which is huge for a marginal team in a fairly equal division. Also new managers usually get a bump in performance for at least a couple of weeks. After the honeymoon, not so much. I'm thinking of a manager the went like 10-2 his first week, then went 2-10 after that (Buddy Bell in KC a few years back?????) . I actually think a manager in baseball has a lot to do with getting players in the right place physically and mentally to make the close plays.. 90% of this game is 80% mental.
In conclusion I think this team (and organization) needs to be shaken up. To start making plays, making hits, picking up guys, to expect those close games to be wins, and to actually make them wins. A loss is a loss. There are no moral victories. Close counts the same as a blow out. The Rockies seem to mount up, coulda's woulda's and shoulda's way too much for way too long. And frankly I've gotten my belly full of it. If I look at the players and see like you do, an overall better team of better players, and the results are still the same. I get mad. I expect and demand of this team a winner this year. But it looks like we are on the same road that we have been on for far to long, to actually see it differently. That road will give us a 4th place finish, full of close losses, and hope for the "next year" that never seems to arrive.
The organization from the Owners on down need to really say (and mean) that loosing is no longer tolerated, nor rewarded. Changes in management on and off the field need to be made. Eventually changes in players need to be made as well. And if that means making changes in the payroll then that need to be done as well. If the owners can't make that change happen, we the fans need to demand a change in the ownership. And if the ownership doesn't care/expect winning, why should the fan buy a ticket or care about a team who's main focus is to not loose money and not to provide enteraining (which winning is) baseball
by Redhawk on
Apr 18, 2007 11:08 AM MDT
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oh and
I'm not trying to win a debate, or to have you changed your view or you to change mine. I'm glad you are still optomistic.
by Redhawk on
Apr 18, 2007 11:16 AM MDT
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*standing ovation*
by Franchise26 on
Apr 18, 2007 11:36 AM MDT
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Best team in years
I am very confident that this is the best Rockies team in years.
Coming into the season my big concern with the team was the quality of the 3rd and 4th starters (we already knew what the 5th starter would provide). I was not worried about the bullpen talent or depth and our offense was going to be better than last year by a significant margin due to a healthy Helton and not having Sullivan and Barmes at the top of the order for most of the season.
I am still not concerned about the bullpen or the offense (in terms of talent and flexibility) though there is no gaurantee that either will be managed correctly.
Rodrigo and Hirsh have both looked very good so far. If thier first few starts are any sort of indicator of what they are going to bring to the team this year then the Rockies should be within striking distance of the playoffs late into the summer.
I don't think that this team could win the NL West (90+ wins to get it done, IMO) on talent alone but we finally have enough talent and depth to possibly steal a division title or a wild-card birth.
by MADness on
Apr 18, 2007 5:09 PM MDT
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No way
by stuntdaddy1 on
Apr 21, 2007 6:36 PM MDT
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Losing is contagious
by stuntdaddy1 on
Apr 21, 2007 6:49 PM MDT
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So the Rockies team
by Russ on
Apr 21, 2007 6:59 PM MDT
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Ok
by stuntdaddy1 on
Apr 21, 2007 7:33 PM MDT
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I don't think the outcome
by Russ on
Apr 21, 2007 7:40 PM MDT
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Oh believe me
by stuntdaddy1 on
Apr 21, 2007 7:49 PM MDT
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Wait a minute
by stuntdaddy1 on
Apr 21, 2007 7:36 PM MDT
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Yeah
If that's the case you're an even poorer excuse for a fan than I've already deduced.
by Franchise26 on
Apr 21, 2007 7:49 PM MDT
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You don't even know me
by stuntdaddy1 on
Apr 21, 2007 7:51 PM MDT
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Let me say this
I'm a Seattle Seahawks fan. Every year before 2005, every loss brought people out of the woodwork on websites and boards like this one saying "Same Old Seahawks! This team isn't any good, they'll never be any good, why do I waste my time..." I seem to recall those same people being among the first jumping off the wall when the Hawks won the NFC title game.
All I'm saying is you can't have it both ways. If you truly feel like you're wasting your time with this team or whatever team it may be... then don't waste your time! All it's doing is making you miserable. Believe me, there are times when I wonder why I bother. But those times are far, far outweighed - if not outnumbered - by the times when I remember why.
I have never respected the type of fan who will belittle other fans for their optimism or their faith.
by Franchise26 on
Apr 21, 2007 7:58 PM MDT
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I guess what I'm trying to say is...
by Franchise26 on
Apr 21, 2007 8:05 PM MDT
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Don't worry about it
by stuntdaddy1 on
Apr 21, 2007 8:09 PM MDT
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I'm not wasting my time
by stuntdaddy1 on
Apr 21, 2007 8:07 PM MDT
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To each his own
Anyway, like I said... I won't begrudge you your pessimism. And I'm not questioning your bonafides as a fan. But I think it's a little too early still to be writing off this 2007 season. Are early returns good? No. Does that mean they can't turn it around? I wouldn't say so yet, and if this is where our opinions differ I suppose there's nothing wrong with that. I guess I'm just generally not too fond of absorbing pessimism. This is why I rarely go to the FanHome boards.
Ignore my comments above. Like I said, I get a little hot sometimes.
by Franchise26 on
Apr 21, 2007 8:13 PM MDT
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Speaking of bonafides
by Russ on
Apr 21, 2007 8:16 PM MDT
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Probably not
by Franchise26 on
Apr 21, 2007 8:17 PM MDT
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I get a little hot too
by stuntdaddy1 on
Apr 21, 2007 8:43 PM MDT
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And yes
by stuntdaddy1 on
Apr 21, 2007 8:45 PM MDT
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Rockies head South
by lizardlad01 on
Apr 22, 2007 12:55 AM MDT
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this is what it comes down to
in response, stuntdaddy offers this (in a nutshell): "well whatever. the rockies have been bad for a long time now and its three weeks into the season and were not in first place. so theres no way this season will be any different than last year or any others. i dont really care about your reasoning and analysis, my vague frustration-centered ideas and anecdotes are good enough for me."
i dont appreciate it. at all.
on the other hand, id like to sincerely thank comedian and redhawk for entering into discourse with me and directly addressing my points. in other words, doing what stuntdaddy didn't. i appreciate it.
by LarryB303 on
Apr 22, 2007 11:03 PM MDT
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It's all talk
I keep hearing about our minor league system being the best or the 2nd best in the league, but guess what? Nobody cares if you don't win on the big league level! Who cares if you have the best minor league system when it doesn't translate to wins on the big league level. We've produced nice to great players like Todd Helton, Matt Holliday, Garrett Atkins, Brad Hawpe, Jason Jennings, Aaron Cook, Jeff Francis, Clint Barmes, and Brian Fuentes, all of whom were on our team last year and what'd we have to show for it? Another losing season. About par for the course for the Rockies.
I read your post about all the nice little positive things you posted, and your theories why this team will be different, but no matter how many positive stats you put up or how many ways you try to break the Rockies down to make yourself feel better about them the bottom line in any sports is wins and losses, and in that category we have failed miserably. I have 11 years of history supporting me Larry. What do you have?
by stuntdaddy1 on
Apr 23, 2007 5:27 PM MDT
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heres what i have-
- a lack of desire to continue debating with someone who refuses to address the real issues. pay attention: were not arguing about whether the rockies have been bad for years and years. go back and read one of the first paragraphs of the diary. i conceded that fact to you last week when i originally wrote it. of course, if you ignore the past and just talk about the current 2007 version of the rockies, your whole argument falls apart because its based entirely on how bad weve been since whenever. so i can see why youd want to harp on that point so much. but honestly, youre not even close to contributing anything to the discussion at this point.
- a strong desire to have the last word as well. so my final ironclad point is: heres a list of the win totals of the detroit tigers from 1995 to 2005: 60, 53, 79, 65, 69, 79, 66, 55, 43, 72, 71. do you think we can get doctor emmett brown to build us a time machine so we can go back to last april and put a million billion kajillion dollars on them to NOT win the AL pennant in 2006? seems like a pretty safe bet... i mean, they hadnt been above .500 in more than 10 years! ill call my friend marty mcfly and ask him for the doc's phone number. this is a great plan, well be rich in no time.
by LarryB303 on
Apr 23, 2007 10:02 PM MDT
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Well thanks Larry
by stuntdaddy1 on
Apr 23, 2007 10:25 PM MDT
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My entire point
by stuntdaddy1 on
Apr 23, 2007 10:39 PM MDT
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This says it all. Bottom line is wins and losses.
Wild Cards
Year Record Manager
1995 77-67 Don Baylor
West Division Titles
Year Record Manager
None n/a n/a
N.L. Pennants
Year Record Manager
None n/a n/a
World Championships
Year Opponent M.V.P.
None n/a n/a
by stuntdaddy1 on
Apr 23, 2007 5:43 PM MDT
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Attendance
by stuntdaddy1 on
Apr 23, 2007 5:49 PM MDT
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Your last point
by stuntdaddy1 on
Apr 23, 2007 7:02 PM MDT
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