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Prospect Debate: Nelson vs. Gomez

With both players homering yesterday, I thought now would be as good a time as ever to bring this up:  when it comes to the young shortstops in the system, I'm a Nelson guy.

Hector Gomez, as rox girl points out, has received a crazy amount of recent press, and was rated one spot higher in Goldstein's Top Ten.  While I'm very excited to see where Gomez goes with his talent, for the time being, I'm picking Nelson ahead of Gomez for the time being, and will deliver my case with a few points:

-Nelson was considered one of if not the top high school hitter in the 2004 draft.

That's not to say Americans are better than international ball players, but it's more a statement of Nelson's pedigree and can explain the recent upswing in his talents.  In Goldstein's recent top ten, he talks about how things suddenly can "click" for toolsy players, where they start to add production to their athleticism and not turn back.  For Nelson, that looks as if this is the case in the second half of this year.

First half:  .260/.330/.389
Second half:  .314/.390/.607

From that standpoint, Nelson might be the organization's best offensive player in the second half of the year.  With that type of pop, Nelson is starting to add performance to his projection as a middle order hitter.

-Nelson has already passed the "McCormick Threshold" and improved his performance.

This may not be completely fair to Gomez, because he hasn't had the opportunity to prove himself outside of Asheville, but for Nelson doing it, he should still earn credit.  You could make the case that Nelson should be docked for not making gains in Asheville, but since prospects should have more emphasis placed on their performance at higher levels than the lower ones, and the most recent season compared to past ones, Nelson has redeemed himself this season.  

The concern with Gomez is that he not having near the success away from McCormick, and his current pop may be more park than skill.  Still, he's very young, and still projects well down the line.  I'm just willing to give more credit to the guy who has shown progress away from McCormick.

-Nelson has a more polished skill set.

Gomez' phenomenal raw tools have drawn all kinds of comparisons to the elite players of the league.  Yet, when you're this raw, these comparisons come more often.  Before we really know what Gomez can be, we need to start to see some refinement in his plate discipline.

Nelson has already begun to show a mature approach at the plate.  His walk rate is a healthy 10.1%, his K rate is an acceptable 17.2%, and he has improved both of those numbers from last year while at a higher level.  Because of these gains and their current levels, we already have a rough idea of the type of hitter Nelson will be, and where he can fit in the lineup.  That expectation is a hitter with solid contact skills, good patience, and above average pop for his likely positions.  Where Gomez has the chance to blow these numbers out of the water if he reaches some of the comparisons thrown his way, he could just as well fall short with his missing plate discipline.  Young players like Gomez can make big strides in this department, but for the time being, I'm siding with the safer bet to have a refined approach at the plate.

-Nelson is relatively close to the big leagues.

Though it's possible Nelson takes the minors step by step and makes his Rockies' debut in 2010, there are signs that his arrival could come much sooner.  For starters, if he has finally "clicked" in the second half, than he'll carry his big performance to the Double A level.  As soon as you establish yourself in AA, you're on the doorstep.  Should Nelson put up a line like .300/.380/.500 in Tulsa next season, it's entirely possible that he could be in Colorado next year.  He's already showing a refined offensive profile, so we should expect a good performance in Tulsa, and who knows from there.

Gomez, on the other hand, is just a teenager, and will need to prove he can hit away from McCormick, refine his plate discipline, and turn more power projection into power production.  I wouldn't be surprised if he accomplishes all these things in Modesto, but that's a pretty big leap and doesn't necessarily have to happen in High A.  

So in summation, I prefer to go with the guy that has a better chance of reaching his potential than the guy with the considerably higher ceiling.  The difference isn't great; if Nelson is position prospect number one, Gomez is one A.  Neither is going to be the next Rockies shortstop, and the positions they end up at could change these rankings.  Nelson seems like a good fit for second base, and Gomez' comparisons to Hanley Ramirez could look more apt once Ramirez makes his eventual shift to centerfield, as Gomez likely will in the next two seasons.  If there's a moral to this story, it's that the Rockies still have two very high ceiling talents coming down the pipeline despite graduating two on the left side of the infield over this year and next.  Blue chip position players don't stop with Tulo and Stewart, the future contributions of Nelson and Gomez (and Fowler) could make an already bright future even brighter.

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Shouldn't the first point
be "Nelson was considered one of if not the top high school hitter in the 2004 draft"?
"Don't give up the ship!" - Capt. James Lawrence

by Russ on Aug 23, 2007 9:24 PM MDT   0 recs

I think you must be
forgetting the three years Chris Nelson spent at the University of Georgia...

Of course you're right and it has been edited to reflect that.  Simple oversight.

by David OhNo on Aug 23, 2007 10:39 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

I still like Gomez better
Some counter-points:

-Gomez is three years younger and one level below.  The whole "closer to the big leagues argument" is kind of invalid if the two players are only a level apart.  I'd say that the chances of either panning out are about the same at this point.  

-You speak of the McCormick factor and Gomez?  What about the California League factor? Look at Nelson's splits.... 14 of his 17 homeruns have come on the road.   He also has a .753 OPS at home and a .945 OPS on the road.  While John Thurman field in Modesto is neutral, most of the other ballparks in the California League are extreme hitters parks (High Desert, Lancaster, ect.).   Not to mention that Nelson had a .729 OPS while playing 50% of time at McCormick last season.

-Seeing is believing.   I think you rely too much on stats in this instance.  Gomez is a real flashy player and one of those toolsy types that scouts love.   Maybe if you watched both of them your opinion might change (on the other hand, maybe my opinion might change if I had seen Nelson recently).

Keep in mind the "fluke factor" also.  Outside of a fantastic July, Nelson has been a below-average player for the last 3 years.  He doesn't have much of a track record of success. All players go through hot streaks.... Nelson will need to prove that his red-hot July was no fluke.

by malakian on Aug 23, 2007 9:47 PM MDT   0 recs

Corrections
Serves me right for not doing any research and writing that in haste....

Nelson is 2 ½ years older, not three.
John Thurman is more of a pitchers park than I realized, but my argument about Nelson's home/road splits is still valid.
I am clearly biased, as Nelson is also something of a toolsy/flashy player as well, but his prospect luster / scout love has faded since 2004.  

In short....
-Nelson and Gomez have approximately the same ETA and probability of panning out IMO.
-Gomez has higher upside.
-I am just as wary of Nelson's stats as I am of Gomez's, so the upside/tools infatuation rules out.

by malakian on Aug 23, 2007 10:30 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Counters to counters
-While both Nelson and Gomez are only apart by one level, there development gap is considerably wider.  Gomez's K rate of 21.4% and BB rate of 5.5% pale in comparison to Nelson's rates, and while I feel a player of Gomez's age can cover ground quickly in these departments, it isn't there right now, and there are enough teenage flamouts in prospect history to not accept improvement as a given here.  Nelson's polish could make his ETA late 2008 with continued performance, where Gomez needs to first improve his rates.  The K rate has steadily improved, so that's a positive, but when will the BB rate go up?  Gomez's ETA is still largely a toss up.

-Seeing is overrated in this instance.  We aren't comparing Joe Gaetti to Colby Rasmus, we're talking about two players with elite phsyical tools.  Flash is overrated.  Hanley Ramirez has flash and he's the worst defensive shortstop in major league baseball.  I have no doubt I'd be impressed by both players watching them in person (I'll see Nelson next season).  I also wonder if Gomez' ceiling is reportedly so high because he is so raw.  Guys like Joaquin Arias are good cautionary tales about putting to much projection on a young player.  

I often wonder if "ceiling" and "raw" are synonimous.

-I don't deny that Nelson's splits are real, but the away splits are more representative of performance in the league.  Thurman is like the RFK of the Cali League, so it's a little unfair to be overly critical of Nelson's splits.  If Nelson played his home games in a normal Cali League park, he'd be approaching 25-30 homers, which for a 21 year old shortstop in the Cali League, is mightily impressive.  That's not necessarily a tangible point, but what is is that Nelson played in extreme hitters parks on the road, and a strong pitchers park at home.  His splits are less useful than Gomez'.

-Does Gomez' road line of .245/.304/.386 not give anyone pause?  In comparison, Nelson hit .259/.304/.421 away from McCormick Field in 2006.  That's not a huge difference, but it also shows that compared to the league, Nelson was not a lesser hitter than Gomez when leaving McCormick.  If anything, it shows that McCormick didn't play to Nelson's strengths.

This is all just splitting hair with our top two positional players in the minors, but if I had to pick a player to top my list, I'll take the guy with a better performance line with similar athletic talents.

by David OhNo on Aug 23, 2007 11:12 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Valid points
Thanks for responding.

Another point.... As you know, Gomez is still filling out and building muscle.  
That he's tall/skinny/gangly, in his first full season of pro-ball and undoubtedly dealing with a culture shock and ---regardless of these factors--- is still holding his own, is remarkable in my opinion.

One point I'd like to stress some more is the fluke factor....  Nelson had a fantastic July, but other than that, his stats over the last three seasons have been mediocre at best   It could be development/progress, but it also could very well be an aberration.  I'd rather err on the side of caution and see more results before declaring Nelson a top prospect again.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that this argument is a bit premature. Both players could go either way really.... I need to see continued success out of Nelson before I change my opinion of him, while you need to see something more tangible out of Gomez before you alter your opinions on him.

A little off/topic... where did you find Nelson's 2006 splits?  Did you have them saved on your computer or did you use a website?  Finding pre-2007 minor league splits is difficult....

by malakian on Aug 23, 2007 11:39 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Great points all around
To David: Yeah, "ceiling" and "raw" basically are synonymous.  Scouts and coaches drool over hitters who can hit the ball a mile, but have no plate discipline to speak of, or pitchers who can throw 99 mph but have no command, thinking they can turn them into some beast who can dominate at the major league level.  Basically these players are looked at as having all the things you can't teach, while it's assumed that what they lack are things that can be learned.  Problem is that it's really debatable whether some of these things can be learned, or whether the player will actually care to learn these things.  It's hard to convince somebody to bother with command or secondary pitches when they've gotten away with it for so long because hitters in high school and the low minors will swing at anything and just sort of flail at their fastball.

Meanwhile, "polished" players (i.e., those who have already developed secondary skills) are seen as having a low ceiling because the scouts basically believe that what you see is what you get with these players.  If they've already learned most of the things that can be learned, the belief is that there really isn't that much room for development.

But this is no different from other sports.  Like basketball coaches who burn a scholarship on a 7-footer who's never played basketball in his life.

Malakian: Good point about Gomez still having growth left to do, physically.  But in this post-steroid era environment, it's tough to assume that he will.  There are plenty of men who, for whatever reason, can't put on weight (at least, not in a way that will make them athletically useful.)

The Coors Effect... thinking about changing the name to The Humidor Effect.

by Rox Fan in TN on Aug 24, 2007 1:51 AM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Tools vs. Production
I'll be honest now.... Despite superior production/statistics, scouts/experts still prefer Gomez's potential over Nelson's tangible output.  This influenced my judgment some.

I probably wouldn't of dived in to this argument had Baseball America not been on my side.  I already loved Gomez's potential while I also questioned Nelson's 2007 output, but that BA preferred Gomez strengthened my beliefs a little.

Anyway,

I'm glad that people care enough about the farm system to even have an argument like this.  Gomez over Nelson or Nelson over Gomez isn't a slam dunk either way--- They're still relatively close as far as prospect status goes.

by malakian on Aug 24, 2007 12:42 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

I got the splits from
First Inning.

Just enter the player's name in the top right search box, and then when you pull up his profile, you can scroll down to the "Extended Statistics" group, and underneath that heading is a set of tabs that give the year and the team for a player from his last two minor league years.  Click those tabs to pull up the splits.

It looks like they only go back to 2006 on this site, but it's better than nothing.  I have a hunch that another site I have used in the past can go back further, but I haven't tried it yet.

And just for general reference for everyone, Fan Graphs does have minor league rates and other SABR numbers for the last two seasons.  Just enter the name in the search at the top right, and once the names pull up, there will be two tabs above the names, one that says Major Leagues, and one that says Minor Leagues.  Click on minor leagues (obviously) to find the player you're looking for.

by David OhNo on Aug 24, 2007 1:07 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

To touch on the positional thing
Is there any thought that Nelson will be moved to CF?  As I understand it, Nelson has a ridiculous arm, at least he did in high school.  I am not sure if injuries or surgeries have affected his arm, as I have not seen him play in person.  If his arm is still similar to the one that threw almost 100 mph in high school, then I for one would like to see that arm put to use.

It would be a valuable tool in turning the DP, but I would rather see it in the OF, if it won't be used at SS, and most of us agree that it won't.  Even RF for that matter, but again if his arm is not the same, then I see the reason for the likely move to 2B.  

I would love to see Fowler make a move in the coming year, and eventually get the shot in CF, but if not Nelson might be perfect for that, or again RF.  I would only think RF might be an option if scouts believe he can produce power at the big league level, somewhere between 25-30 HR's, and I'm not sure if anyone thinks that is a possibility at this point.

by smokinRox on Aug 24, 2007 8:01 AM MDT   0 recs

Another Consideration
I haven't watched either player, but Gomez makes a tremendous number of errors.  How many extra pitches were required of Asheville pitchers as a result of these errors?  Now they are in the heat of a pennant race and without exception every relief pitcher and some of the starters are wearing down significantly from their earlier level of performance.  Three (Burok {now with Modesto}, Katz and Jarrett are done for the year, Baker is back on the DL, Sullivan and Kreidermacher have been frequent visitors to the DL, Harris and Baumgardner are no longer invincible, and Simons has lost his early season effectiveness. Now Andy Graham is hurt, and of course Josh Sullivan began the year as a starter. I wonder what the number of extra pitches and unearned runs attributed to these pitchers would look like if one were to factor in the errors by Gomez.Errors are of course a part of the game, but they are a huge part of the game of Gomez at this stage of his development and have probably impacted the pitching squad.  Hopefully all of these pitchers will be able to perform as they have in the past, but it appears for all the heroics of the entire team the second half pennant is about to slip away.

by lahardball on Aug 24, 2007 9:13 AM MDT   0 recs

Nelson has committed 70 errors..
..over the last two seasons.

So focusing entirely on errors, they're a wash defensively.  Although, errors are a poor indicator of defensive ability regarding players in the lower minors.    

It's funny....

Nelson had exhibited most of Gomez's flaws before this year.

20 year-old Nelson in 2006 vs. 19 year-old Gomez in 2007
-Poor K/BB ratio (101/32 vs. 107/29)
-Poor numbers away from McCormick  (.721 road OPS vs. .691 road OPS)
-High error totals  (41 errors vs. 37 errors)

by malakian on Aug 24, 2007 12:17 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

That last bit is the crux of my argument
I don't doubt Gomez has a serious amount of upside, he just needs that "click" that Nelson has exhibited.  That's why Nelson's recent two months of success don't worry me a great deal.  He's rounding out his profile with plate discipline, which will go a long ways to prevent further slumps or struggles down the line.  If Nelson's July and August were all BABIP I'd be more concerned, but his breakout has come with across the board offensive improvement.  

That's why I think Nelson has "clicked" but Gomez has the same opportunity to do so, but until he does, he's not on the same developmental page as Nelson.

Great job of pointing those factors out by the way.

by David OhNo on Aug 24, 2007 12:59 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

From a Tourists Fan Prospective
So, I watched Chris and Hector and I have to say I favor Chris. Asheville wasn't a really good place for Chris mentally and it showed up in his game. The first year he was too pre-occupied with his injury and the fact that he was "behind" people he used to play against. Last year he managed to put some of that past him and started to relax and enjoy playing again. He's normally very consistent and really focuses on the game. If it went towards him, he got the ball and because of his pitching, had a very nice fast and consistent throw (and no, he does not throw as hard as he did in high school, but it's still hard).

As for Hector, I think he needs a few more years to get under control. He definitely has the talent, but he is still way to inconsistent. He can come up with big plays and then blow the next play. But I think that will change with maturity. I know he wants to get to the Big Leagues in two years (along with Rodriguez), but unless he can get his head more in the game and read the pitches better so he's strike out less, I'm thinking it'll be more like three. I know scouts like the showmanship of it all, but you have to produce consistently and not be all flashes.

Right now, I'll take Chris' maturity over Hector's flashiness. In the next few years when Gomez matures and gets some more play and coaching, it may change.

by wsmith on Aug 24, 2007 11:08 AM MDT   0 recs

Another Tourist fan vote for Nelson
These kinds of comparisons are, of course, unfair. Inevitably, the more recent memories prevail in arriving at a choice. Nelson has certainly exceeded my expectations this year after watching him in Asheville. Good for him. Maybe Gomez came in with inflated expectations, but his performance, in my opinion, hasn't measure up to the hype. Gustafson has been quoted twice (including once here in Asheville) as saying that Gomez will replace Tulo in three years. For those of us who have watched him commit the same kinds of errors night after night at SS as well as hack away at any virtually any pitch thrown in his general direction when at the plate, that is an astonishing prediction. First, it's an insult to Tulo. I've never seen him in person, but on TV he looks terrific. As for Gomez, I've now seen him about 30 times, spread pretty evenly throughout the season. Is he athletic? You bet. Can he make the occasional great play? You bet. Does he have a great arm? The best I've seen in a long time for any infielder (Tourist or otherwise). Is he fundamentally sound? Ugh. Good footwork? Whoops. Dependable on routine plays? Ah, c'mon.
Kidding aside, I can't understand why he's still double clutching throws all the time. In April, I assumed this obvious shortcoming (it's really more like showboating--tempting the runner to get closer to first before he fires his cannon) would be eliminated by the Rox brass. Not so. He's still doing it. Still reaching for grounders rather than moving his feet. Still shying away from hard hit grounders hit directly at him rather than squaring up. Judging from comments from some other bloggers, I guess we're supposed to dismiss defensive shortcomings at this point in his career. I don't understand that logic. Even the locals seem to be playing make believe. Just after the BA designation as the best shortstop in the SAL was announced (during the latest homestand), he made several obvious errors that were scored as hits by the Asheville official scorer.  When posted on the scoreboard, it was embarrassing. People in the stands started to laugh. His supporters always end their comments with "but he's only 19." That's a cop out. Just like "he's got a high ceiling" is. Somebody better start devoting lots more time to solving his defensive weaknesses or else target him for another position. I honestly don't see him as a SS in the bigs.
In fairness, he's doing much better with plate discipline. Taking LOTS more pitches, getting deeper into the count. This is to his credit and should be a good indicator of what can happen when coaches work with him. I think the jury is still out regarding his hitting. Though he can swing it to all fields, lots of Asheville doubles are imbedded in his stats, if you know what I mean.
Bottom line, he is very talented, very young, and VERY raw. He has some real holes in his game right now. Let's all give him some time and hope that the Rox tone down the accolades and turn up the coaching help.      

by hobfan on Aug 24, 2007 1:36 PM MDT   0 recs

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