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The Oakland Trade: A Better Fit?

When I started writing out posts on the upcoming moves for the off-season, I stressed two critical factors in the Rockies trying to maximize their performance with a limited roster:  Play better defense and get more (or luckier) out of your bullpen.  Not so surprisingly, these two factors often play a role on teams that win more than their run differential suggests they should.  In the coming bulletin points, we’ll see just how this trade did in attacking these goals and why I believe the Rockies made the deal with the right intentions.

Star-divide

Carlos Gonzalez (We’ll start with the big fish)

The Rockies received the high end young talent they were lacking in the St. Louis trade-  This isn’t Colby Rasmus, but it’s pretty close.  This is a highly regarded prospect.  Coming into the season, Gonzalez was the top rated player in the Diamondback-then-Athletics systems according to Baseball America, and was a five star prospect by BP’s Kevin Goldstein.  Gonzalez is said to have otherworldly tools and has flashed these a little more often in his recent minor league stints.  It’s easy to look at his MLB numbers with disappointment, but in his defense, he did not appear ready for the challenge of the major leagues (offensively, I should say), and he made his debut at the still young age of 22.  He’ll likely play an entire year in the majors next year at just 23, and the tools aren’t going anywhere.  Goldstein floated the Hanley Ramirez comp, and someone in the trade thread used Beltran, and both are possible outcomes for Gonzalez because his skill level is that high.  Sometimes, things suddenly click for guys like this and the sky becomes the limit.  He’s still too raw to worry about walk rates yet, let the power blossom and allow him to find his own way at the plate, Ramirez wasn’t exactly the most patient young player but the numbers have come with better performance.  Bottom line, we weren’t getting this type of player from St. Louis, and because of that I figured Gonzalez would have been off limits.

+5, +5-  I won’t make you guess what these are, those are Carlos Gonzalez’ plus/minus numbers in center and right.  This goes to the first part of “beating your pythag,”  Gonzalez’ plus/minus in both positions represent an upgrade over our current output.  I don’t quite get the left field talk with Gonzalez.  Sure, we need to find a replacement for Holliday there, but Spilborghs and Smith were already stretches in center, and Gonzalez plays it better right now than anyone Colorado has.  Long term, Gonzalez will be Hawpe’s replacement.  CoGo has a very strong arm and though he had four kills in a smaller MLB stint, his strength in controlling the running game came as much in teams declining to run on him than him throwing them out on the basepaths.  He may need to clean his accuracy up a tad to increase the number of kills going forward, but again, Gonzalez has just turned 23 and has plenty of time to refine his defensive skill.  What he doesn’t need is any more range.  Go to the Oakland A’s website or Carlos Gonzalez’s MLB player page and you can watch highlight after highlight of diving catches in the gaps at Oakland’s McAfee Coliseum.  For 2009, the Rockies can pencil in Gonzalez in center and trust it’s playing a guy with plus speed, plus arm, plus first step, and a solid understanding of routes and angles.  Assuming Gonzalez can repeat his ’08 plus/minus, he represents a 10 run swing over Taveras in center, and that alone could be an additional win next year.

 

Future and Financial Flexibility-  Aside from being talented, Gonzalez also gives the Rockies another chance at developing a star on the cheap.  The team should have few qualms finding a role for him next year, and with the possibility of a breakout, the Rockies could have yet another major asset costing them close to nothing.  In addition to payroll flexibility, the Rockies could have additional roster flexibility.  Assuming both Gonzalez and Fowler blossom next year, Gonzalez has the tools to slide to right field with no problem and give the Rockies a plus defender with high end offensive tools at the position, and back to the financial flexibility, allow the Rockies to look into moving Hawpe down the road.

 

Huston Street  (More valuable than most think)

Was it that bad?-  If the Rockies were to deal with the A’s, I figured Street would be the key major league part to the deal, but I’m surprised at talk he could be flipped again.  I’ve read some of the post-trade scouting reports, but a lot of them just don’t jive with the data.  Street threw his fastball on average .4 mph slower, the slider .9 mph slower, and the change .4 mph harder.  All in all, the velocity numbers from the pitch type data just don’t reflect a major change in that regard.  Those numbers don’t reflect drops in movement, and he may have suffered there, but Street’s FIP for ’08 was still a better number than Fuentes’ career FIP (though not better than his ’08 number).  On August 19th, Will Carroll wrote in his UTK article that Street believed he had figured out what was wrong and would revert to his old self thereafter.  From that date on, Street’s ERA dropped from 4.42 to 3.74, and he pitched to a 1.74 ERA in September.  That may be a small sample size, but it’s still ironic that his improvement coincided with a believed mechanical fix.  All told, Street was worth almost two wins out of the bullpen in Oakland (based on WXRL 0f 1.943).  The Rockies’ expect closer Corpas?  That number finished in the red (-.243)

Don’t upset the apple cart-  Point two of “beating your pythag” is a good bullpen.  A good bullpen does not have to have a great closer, but it does need a great leverage pitcher.  Street is not ’08 Fuentes, but you can make the case he is every other year Fuentes.  Street picks him K’s without a big fastball and generally keeps the walks down.  He’s coming to the easier league (good bye DH, hello pinch hitting, slap swinging, fourth outfielder) and will be facing hitters who have not adapted to his unorthodox mechanics and sweeping breaking ball.  Add in supposedly cleaned mechanics, and you have the chance for a solid rebound (and we aren’t looking for much, he was still pretty good last year).  One of Street’s attributes is his “closer history.”  Street can settle into the ninth inning role, and his managers and teammates can have confidence in him getting the job done.  That’s important because then the Rockies can release the better pitcher, Buchholz to tackle the eighth and high leverage appearances in the seventh.  This also means the Rockies don’t have to move Corpas to a role he hasn’t earned back and make allow him time to regain form (namely getting back on top of his pitches).  Remember, closers are overrated as is, and Street allows the Rockies to replace Fuentes one for one without upsetting the balance of the bullpen.  This also gives the Rockies versatility in playing the free agent market for additional relief help. 

 

Financial Flexibility…-  I’m sure some can spin this as being cheap, but again with Street, the Rockies can have a “proven closer” not making 7-8 million per year, and will allow the Rockies to spend money elsewhere.  Street’s likely in line for a bump in salary from 3.3 million last year, but the Rockies are just going year to year, and assuming they do put Street in the closer’s role, I’d expect in two years, the Rockies would be looking at another Type A free agent, and subsequently, a couple of first rounders again (He’s a projected A this year).

 

Greg Smith (As long as he doesn’t fail his physical)

There is still upside here, maybe?-  I’m not thrilled with this piece, but this should be Smith playing the “J.A. Happ-Skip Schumaker role,” so his contribution isn’t AS critical.  On VORP and SNLVAR, Smith was as good as our top two arms last year, but when the year is peeled back, there were obvious fluke signs.  That said, Smith can still make improvements in areas he’s shown proficiency for in the past and hope to keep some of his gains.  For one, Smith’s BB/9 rate was much higher last year than it has been in any of his minor league stops.  Smith can improve this through reputation, once the umpires gain respect in his nibbling ways, they will be more inclined to give him the black.  Smith can also “give in” more to hitter, using the two seam fastball a little more when he gets behind in counts.  The other improvement Smith can make is in his GB%.  Smith’s sub 40% GB% won’t cut it in Coors, but he’s been above this number several times in the minors.  Smith has the two-seam and diving cutter to be better in this department, but it was easy to take advantage of Oakland’s spacious foul territory.  He’ll have to make improvements here, but Apodaca has been fairly successful at milking pitcher for all their ability to keep the ball on the ground as much as possible.

Financial, Trade Flexibility-  Here it is again, Smith gives the Rockies a fifth starter that has tasted big league success, and he won’t cost anything.  Smith allows the Rockies to become more open minded in their return for Taveras and Atkins.  Now, getting a guy like Sowers or Broadway becomes redundant, and if the Rockies can find a better trade fit for a right handed bat, reliever, or even second baseman, they can do so without worrying as much about starting pitching.  There’s always a chance that Smith be packaged with Atkins or Taveras to improve a haul.  Lastly, Smith must still take and pass a physical, so before looking more into Greg, we need to first make sure he’ll be coming this way.

Overall, I consider this trade a big improvement on the Cardinals’ package.  Though the talent may not have the same track record, all three pieces fill a distinct hole, and the Rockies are afforded even more payroll flexibility to pursue improvements in any number of positions.  Keeping Street could not only impact the bullpen, but also uphold the value of the two first round picks lost in dealing Holliday before his sixth season.  The Oakland package offers more upside, long term potential, financial savings, and “scheme fits.”  The success of the trade ultimately hinges on Gonzalez, but banking on five tool, highly regarded talent is the type of risk this team needs to take, and for this O’Dowd deserves much credit.

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Excellent piece

This will hit the email boxes of a lot of people I know tomorrow morning. You just ought to change your screen name to “The Voice of Reason” at this point. Well done as ever.

Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.

by Franchise26 on Nov 10, 2008 11:51 PM MST reply actions  

Gonzalez over-rated

I don’t buy this “five-tool can’t miss” label folks are trying to put on CarGo. His plate discipline is atrocious, he has never controlled the strike zone, and he was lost against southpaws last season. He also hit much worse in his final 150 ABs than his first 150 ABs. His AAA performance in Sacramento was uninspiring.

I’ll bring up two names of the past, both “can’t miss” 2nd basemen. One was Jose Ortiz, a player/bait O’Dowd bit on that Billy Beane peddled to us. His AAA numbers and power were off the charts compared to CarGo, hitting over .350 his final season in Sacramento, compared to CarGo’s .286. The other player this reminds me of (offensively) is Roberto Mejia….. the first hotshot high ceiling hitter in Rox history. And we know how that turned out.

Look, prospects are crapshoots. All of them. They are called prospects for a reason. They’ve proven nothing at the MLB level. In CarGo’s case, he has proven to be a scout’s dream talent-wise, and very undiscplined. Can’t we do better than that from the A’s system? Or any other system?

I also don’t see why we want him blocking Seth Smith’s emergence.

As for Greg Smith, he’s just another arm to compete with Hirsh and Morales for a spot in the rotation. He has an edge over those two based on 2008, but underwent offseason surgery to remove loose bodies from his elbow. This is the type of pitcher we could get in any garden variety trade, not one involving our team MVP.

Street is moot since reports are he will go elsewhere, so we will just have to see what he turns into before judging this completely.

Thus far, I am underwhelmed, but nice write-up nevertheless, David.

by GoRoxGo on Nov 11, 2008 12:49 AM MST reply actions  

CF and other OF spots

I don’t think CarGo will take AB’s away from Seth Smith but rather he may steal them from Spilborghs. We’ll have to see how Fowler and CarGo perform in spring training, but let’s assume Dexter needs more time on the farm. If that is so, then Gonzalez splits time with Spilly in CF while Smith gets the majority of the starts in LF.

Coors needs a defensive highlite reel in CF. Smith and Spilly fall short in that regard while Gonzalez mimicks Sully to the nth degree. Smith fits in LF way better than he does in CF. Spilly can play all three spots with equal ability. If Hurdle feels the need to platoon, he’ll do it in CF with Spilly and CarGo rather than in LF.

As for Greg Smith. He may be another DLR but he certainly can’t be a Hirsch or Reynolds, who both seem lost at the Major League level.

Please don’t get caught up in the equal trade value for a MVP. Holliday is a 1 year rental and then he says, “Pay me Suckers or I’ll seeya later, Suckers”. At least he saz that to some other Suckers rather than to me and you. Oh wait… he already did….

by roxhead on Nov 11, 2008 1:36 AM MST up reply actions  

Exactly...

Compare what Colorado got to what Minnesota got for Johan Santana last season – a lesser CF prospect than Gonzales in Gomez (although he worked out well) and a couple of minor league starters that just aren’t going to come anywhere close to performing like Santana did. This is a very good trade for a player one season away from free agency in today’s MLB. Cost control is crucial in adding value, had we traded Matt after going to the WS in 2007 we could have expected a lot more, but really, we wanted Coors Field to withstand the winter also and not be burnt to the ground by rioters.

by Rox Girl on Nov 11, 2008 6:12 AM MST up reply actions  

Spilly? Even worse....

If CarGo is going to take ABs away from Spilly instead of Smith, that’s even worse since I think Spilly is a more proven MLB bat than either of the other two, and is poised to have a breakout season.

The idea of having a “highlight reel” CF, when the downside is playing a guy who will probably hit .260/.300/.400 over another guy who should hit .310/.390/.530, is a costly one. Spilly is more than adequate in CF, even if he’s no highlight reel.

by GoRoxGo on Nov 11, 2008 6:38 AM MST up reply actions  

Not to worry

I think Spilly’s the everyday LF next season with Smith as the utility fourth OF. Gonzalez is going to play center.

Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.

by Franchise26 on Nov 11, 2008 7:27 AM MST up reply actions  

This

is the Voice of Reason.

Smith will be the fourth OF, but will get starts in left (with Spilly in RF to spell Hawpe once in a while).

Fowler is going to be a stud, but he looked overmatched in his late season callup ABs. I believe he will spend all of next season in the Springs (until September, anyway), and won’t step into the regular CF role here until 2010.

Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave

by Mondogarage on Nov 11, 2008 7:48 AM MST up reply actions  

One of the issues being missed here

is mainly a comparison to the STL deal, and I have to agree in every way that this deal is far better for the Rox. First of all, one of the debates is going to be offense vs defense, and I think David’s point was that defense is critical in winning games you probably shouldn’t. Especially when pitching is still not solid at this point, and when you work inside the “friendly confines” of Coors Field. Gonzalez is a huge upgrade defensively over Ludwick, and can play all 3 OF positions, which Ludwick can not. I think it has been stated in the past, but an OF w/ very athletic players at all 3 spots would be ideal for Coors, and w/ an eventual combo of Gonzalez and Dex, this could be very good. I understand that none of us want to see Taveras II, but I don’t we will be.

This deal also brings back 2 pitchers, instead of 2 OFers, which we don’t need. Street is valuable in this trade, either to bring back additional pieces or to help our BP, which we can all agree is in need.

by smokinRox on Nov 11, 2008 7:56 AM MST up reply actions  

Street

What do you think happens with him?

Do we swing him for more players or keep him?

The Fail boat is sinking

by rockiesfan4ever on Nov 11, 2008 6:39 AM MST reply actions  

I could see an Atkins/Street trade

Just to boost the value of Atkins, and I could see a return on that that would satisfy a Holliday and Atkins combo. The return on the Atkins/Street trade could be a surprise, and it would make the Holliday deal look even better.

Or look to a possible Taveras/Street, as I do believe he will be in a bundle with someone to get that much more.

Oh, and I’m super excited about Holliday being gone. I don’t know why, but I feel like we got away with something big on this trade. Holliday now moving to a pitchers park and in a FA year, I think we’ll see a decline in numbers. And, look at the upside of a Fowler/CarGo combo in the OF. Not bad.

by roxintober on Nov 11, 2008 8:16 AM MST up reply actions  

I think what we are missing here is huge...

First of all, we need to realize that a 1 year rental who is not a pitcher does really not get much. Texeria is an exception obviously, but in years past, pitchers constantly get more. Texeria is also fricken amazing.

Also, you could argue letting him go and taking your draft picks. This is rough because you have no idea what team picks him up. You could get pegged with a 20-30 spot pretty easily based on the money Holliday is asking. Then you look at these players still have 3-4 years before we even see them, unless we happen to get a rock-star.

I look at this with excitement, as I was ready for Holliday to be gone.

by roxintober on Nov 11, 2008 8:23 AM MST up reply actions  

Hmm posting just went awry....

Posted twice, but neither actually happened….

by roxintober on Nov 11, 2008 8:24 AM MST up reply actions  

Not sure

I like Street and don’t mind hanging onto him at all but I also think it entirely possible that Atkins and Street can net an extremely solid starting pitcher and that Taveras either now or perhaps if the Rox let him start in center and he re-establishes himself can net a solid bullpen arm thus offsetting the loss of Street and also setting up the 2010 bullpen nicely (whoever they acquire, Corpas, Buchholz, Weathers). Also some people were saying the Rox should acquire a solid free agent pitcher like Sabathia or Sheets. Here’s a link to next year’s free agents. Some notable names include Bedard, Duchscherer, Kelvim Escobar, John Lackey, Brett Myers, Brad Penny, and Rich Harden. Just something to think about…

by Resolution on Nov 11, 2008 8:17 AM MST reply actions  

EY2

Does this mean EY Jr. goes back to 2B ?

by Hizilla on Nov 11, 2008 8:45 AM MST reply actions  

EY2 will continue to work on as many positions as possible

His primary future will be as an important bench bat, as Joe Sheehan pointed out at Baseball Prospectus a couple of days ago. That’s not to say that he might not be a starter at second or some other position down the road for a team, but if he is, it would likely be as a temporary fix in a rebuilding season. Of course, the Rockies seem to have a perpetual need for exactly that at second, so maybe he winds up there as the season progresses, but I don’t think that’s the Rockies plan.

by Rox Girl on Nov 11, 2008 8:56 AM MST up reply actions  

what about uggla?

isnt he being shopped around? he would help ease the loss of power to the lineup without Atkins or Holliday. Also wouldnt he be fairly cheap? Are the Marlins still interested in Torrealba?

by purplesocks on Nov 11, 2008 11:04 AM MST up reply actions  

Uggla

After what I saw him do to Cook in the ASG no thanks

The Fail boat is sinking

by rockiesfan4ever on Nov 11, 2008 3:29 PM MST up reply actions  

I'm old school....

or maybe I’m just old.

Anyway, I can’t make any judgments about this trade based on stats or what others tell me. I honestly can say I’ve never laid eyes on Carlos Gonzales or Greg Smith, so I’m unwilling to say yay or nay to either. Frankly, the A’s are so far below my baseball radar that I’ve maybe seen Street pitch two or three times.

Unless any of the folks out there have been regular watchers of the A’s the past couple years, I suggest we all have the same attitude. Let’s watch in Tucson and see exactly what we’ve got here. I still have enough faith in O’Dowd to give him the benefit of the doubt. When I see for myself, I’ll determine if he’s right or wrong this time.

by BroJB on Nov 11, 2008 11:25 AM MST reply actions  

info

smith..soft tosser…86-90mph…doesnt pitch to contact..nibbles on corners…at times plus changeup. decent cutter/slider…tries to pitch inside but he gets burned with that velocity..very little margin for error. flyball pither, issue with hr’s…his makeup and competitiveness is off the charts…great pickoff move, completely shutsdown running game

street…i was a huge fan a few yrs ago…i thought he was one of the best closers in mlb..last couple yrs nagging injuries and drop in velocity. when he’s right an above avg closer..i’d say top 15 in mlb. relies on changeup too much against lefties than being aggressive with fastball. back in 05 at times he was hitting 95/96mph..recently 90-93 with sinking action. rockies shouldnt trade him my opnion better fuentes

cargon- 5 tool type, athleticism and tools off the charts. but not your typical A’s player …very impatient, doesnt walk much…he didnt in the minors either. high upside, high bust potential . hated to give him up, but at the same age A’s seemed to be okay with ryan sweeneyc/unningham who have a bit more polished offense approach but obviously not the hugge upside

by Asfan4ever723 on Nov 11, 2008 4:03 PM MST up reply actions  

Thanks

for the info. I respect the A’s a ton but aren’t too familiar with all the details of the prospects. A plus changeup sounds good. Too bad his BABIP was so low last year. Makes me a little skeptical for the future but w/e.

by Resolution on Nov 11, 2008 5:28 PM MST up reply actions  

After a day of pondering

    After a day of reflection upon this trade and reading all the fellow purp’s thoughts, the one thing that really struck me is that regardless of the actual “fit” of the pieces that we recieved (which I think is good), is that we probably got a better package for Holliday than the Twins got for Santana! Now you might argue a position player is a surer bet than a pitcher…. But this was a Rockie player who it’s been argued (justly or most likely unjustly) will see a decline away from Coors Field, and the single most dominant starting pitcher of the last half decade. Now I gotta admit the Twins probably got royally hosed on their deal, but it does certainly say something about the deminishing value of one year rentals and the increased value of prospects/young players. So, I’m gonna give Mr. O’Dowd an atta-boy for getting pretty decent value for Holliday….. And I sure hope one or all of these guys reach their potential, or I assure you it will be your ass. ;)

by IowaRockie on Nov 11, 2008 4:17 PM MST reply actions  

Rotation Effect

I think the most overlooked part of this trade is Greg Smith.

Does anyone remember how our rotation looked going into last year? We had Francis and Cook, and then we rolled the dice on everyone else – Morales, Hirsch, U-Ball, Reynolds, Redman, and I’m probably leaving some out, too. We ended up scrambling for back-of-the-rotation starters and rushing prospects (Reynolds) because we didn’t have enough rotation spots locked in.

Fast forward to this year. Assuming that Francis will return to being at least a solid #3 (which is likely, in my opinion), this is what we had before the trade:

1. Cook
2. U-Ball
3. Francis
4-5. JDLR? Morales? Hirsch? Rusch? Reynolds?

Besides a much improved U-Ball, I don’t think this was leaving us any better off than we were a year ago. Throw in Greg Smith, though, and you at least lock up the #4 spot. In the best case scenario, JDLR has a breakout year and Smith ends up being a solid #5. In the worst case scenario, we roll the dice on the JDLR/Morales/Hirsch/Reynolds crowd to fill one spot rather than two.

After living through the every-five-games-we-are-woefully-overmatched-because-Glendon-Rusch-is-pitching era, I think this is a big step up.

by onholliday on Nov 11, 2008 4:56 PM MST reply actions  

I think

its an improvement on last year, for a few reasons (1) losing the Red Man and Rusch (who actually wasn’t terrible a lot of the time); but mostly (2) because we now know Cook and UBall can be, if not aces, still legit pitchers. I agree Francis should be 3/4 worthy, and I’m cautiously optimistic about JDLR.

That said, I still think improving the #5 spot is just that…improving the #5 spot. Worth doing, to be sure, but not enough imo.

by Teekalong on Nov 12, 2008 9:56 AM MST up reply actions  

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