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Thursday Rockpile: Holliday trade a must win for O'Dowd, but how hard is that?

How the Matt Holliday trade has gotten interpreted seems to hinge on the confidence level that Carlos Gonzalez will ever turn his storied tools into actual MLB worthy baseball skills. If you are 100 percent certain that he'll be successful in this endeavor, the trade looks like a theft from the Rockies end. If you are 100 percent certain that he'll flop, Billy Beane looks like an omniscient super-genius who needs to get hired away by Goldman Sachs, pronto. There's a whole spectrum of variations in between the two extremes.

Beane's pulled fast ones over Dan O'Dowd in the past (remember that Jermaine Dye/Neifi Perez/Scruyu Raquis three way?) in deals of unproven but promising commodities for single players. In fact, in his three trade history with O'Dowd prior to this week, Oakland's come out decisively ahead, receiving Jermaine Dye, Ron Gant, Joe Kennedy and Jay Witasick for Robin Jennings, Mario Encarnacion, Jose Ortiz, Todd Belitz, Eric Byrnes and Omar Quintanilla. It's not a pretty tradition we have to look at here for a guide of what to expect, and O'Dowd's springtime ulcers will probably come over anxiety that Gonzalez doesn't turn out to be the second coming of Ortiz for the Rockies. Nevertheless, I think simplifying the exchange down to a Holliday for Gonzalez swap misses something crucial.

First of all let's start by making clear that most trades aren't competitions between the dealing parties, they can be win-win or lose-lose as well, the only real time when this isn't possible is when the teams involved are dealing like for like, players at the same age, salary and position. That's not the case here, either or both of the Rockies and Athletics could benefit from this deal. So I'm going to break down what has to happen for each team to consider this trade a success, and while trades involving prospects could have windows of five seasons or more, for purposes of this exercise, I'm going to give each team three seasons to accomplish their goals:

For Oakland:

  • Matt Holliday continues to perform at the level he has the last two seasons in 2009
  • OR Holliday doesn't perform at that level but helps the A's reach the playoffs anyway.
  • OR Holliday contributes some and then returns in trade at the July deadline something similar to what the Athletics gave up for him.
  • OR Oakland re-signs Holliday before he's a free agent and he accomplishes either of the first two bullett points before 2011.
  • OR the compensation draft picks Oakland receives for letting him walk in 2010 are seen as likely upgrades on Street/Gonzalez/Smith.

For Colorado:

  • The sum contribution of Street plus Smith plus Gonzalez to the team in any one season in 2009-2011 over players currently on the Rockies roster betters Holliday's anticipated contribution over his replacement (currently Ryan Spilborghs).
  • OR the sum contribution of those three plus the contribution of a free agent player signed with 2009 money budgeted for Holliday likewise contributes.
  • OR the sum value of any received player(s) from trades of one of the three players we received from Oakland when added to who's left from the deal likewise benefits the Rockies.
  • OR these players don't contribute to the level of Holliday but are nonetheless instrumental to the Rockies reaching the playoffs.
  • OR any one of these players contributes at Holliday's level sometime over the next three seasons.
  • OR the Rockies receive a player with the potential of matching Holliday via trade or draft compensation for these three players.

Did I miss anything? Colorado was trading one season of Holliday, so one season of Holliday's production over what we otherwise have is what we're looking to replace. Anything added beyond that goes to making up for the lost draft picks, and once that value's been replaced, we're getting gravy. While some of the "win" thresholds for the Rockies are comparatively easy, others might be more difficult than they appear. The only player received potentially capable of replacing Holliday's added value one for one is Gonzalez. If Gonzalez isn't better than Dexter Fowler or Ryan Spilborghs next season, the onus of replacing Holliday's added value then falls on Smith plus Street plus a possible free agent signed with the leftover Holliday money. The two pitchers combined aren't going to cut it by themselves, we better hope we find a bargain with that cash. None of these scenarios are going to be easy if CarGo doesn't develop, if Smith doesn't show better fastball command. However, making the playoffs, an instant justification for any trade, is probably going to be easier for Colorado than it is for Oakland given the different levels of competition in the two West divisions.

Because they got more players and more money in this exchange, the Rockies do have more roads to success than Oakland does. There's also a risk factor at play, if Matt Holliday gets seriously injured early, that's it for Oakland, the trade's a loss. If any one of the players the Rockies received gets injured, well, pray it's not Gonzalez, but there will still be roads open to making the overall return a success.

The Rockies also benefit in that the positions that are being replaced by Gonzalez, Street and Smith were so bad in 2008, and Ryan Spilborghs is such a decent replacement for Holliday, that the added value bar seems to be a lot lower to reach for the Rockies than people seem to be realizing. All three of the new parts will be replacing a bare minimum level of perfomance from their predecessors. Street, realize, isn't replacing Brian Fuentes, since Fuentes' departure is a separate issue, already factored into the 2009 equation before this trade took place. Instead, Huston's bumping out the guy who would otherwise be our seventh best reliever. Similarly, Smith needs to be evaluated in comparison to the performance of the most likely candidate for the fifth starter's job had he not arrived, either Jason Hirsh or Greg Reynolds. Finally, the bar of improvement over Willy Taveras, due to Wily T's inability to get on base or hit for power, in center field just is not that difficult a hurdle for Gonzalez to clear. We do have to factor in the cost of downgrading the bench from Spilborghs to Eric Young Jr. or Christian Colonel (who's having a great winter, BTW) or whoever we sign, but that won't be nearly as significant as the exchanges taking place in the starting lineup in evaluating this trade.

Now, with this relative ease of coming out with a winning trade also comes a cost for O'Dowd. Even not taking Matt Holliday's iconic status among Rockies fans into account, there's no room for error in this trade for our GM. His history of exchanges with Beane has shown the Rockies to be more or less a AAAA farm club for the Athletics. We've been the place where Oakland can come for a quick and painless upgrade at near zero expense. This can't be the case this time around. The Rockies need to act and play at the level of a major league franchise if they expect to keep the interest of fans and sponsors. If this trade results in another lopsided benefit to the A's, O'Dowd's next move should be to petition Beane and the team he's helped so much over the last decade to make his Athletics employment official.

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Dealing with Scott Boras

Another small benefit to the trade is the method in which O’Dowd dealt with Scott Boras. I would compliment O’Dowd in this area. It is as if O’Dowd is saying “If you are in it for the money so much that you hire Scott Boras, we will trade you.” As much as I like Holliday, and totally appriciate his total efforts not only to improve at the plate, but also in the field and on the bases, if he is sending the message to the Rockies that money is all that matters, and that is what he is doing by hiring Boras, then the Rockies need to move him.

by brian8065 on Nov 13, 2008 2:01 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I really find that bothersome

Scott Borras represents many players, and to sit there and say, if you hire this agent we will not sign you is going to hurt the Rockies long term and allow for players to have greater leverage over the Rockies. If all you have to do is say, sign me to a long term deal or I will hire Borras, then that leaves the Rockies in a horrible position. Like him or not, O’Dowd is going to have to realize he will have to deal with him sooner or later and he might as well work on a good relationship with him. If anything, having the attitude that you will ship guys off if they retain a certain agent is going to lower the value for a player to another team because they know you will take less for him because you are not willing to deal with that agent and have no intention of getting a long term deal in place.

"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum

by Broncoman on Nov 13, 2008 2:38 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can't agree.

Scott Boras also represents Willy Mo Taveras too. Do you think the Rockies are trying to trade Taveras only because Boras is his agent?

Aut Vincam Aut Periam

by PioneerSkies on Nov 13, 2008 3:09 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm just bothered

by the FO’s attempt to demonize Holliday (or anyone) for wanting to get what the market will pay. If we start trying to read into these guys souls and determine who is selfish or not, I suspect we won’t be happy with what we find…

by Teekalong on Nov 13, 2008 3:40 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

exactly.

the Monforts are more greedy than Matt Holliday or Scott Boras combined.

Aut Vincam Aut Periam

by PioneerSkies on Nov 13, 2008 3:57 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why is one greedier than the other?

Every one of those parties is trying to maximize their own profit potential — so why is any one of them worse than the other?

I mean, I pretty much hate Boras more than anything, but in his dealings, more of the blame for those contracts goes on owners like Tom Hicks foolish enough to bid against themselves. Boras’ job is to advocate for his clients and get as much as possible. His client is the player, not the fan or the team.

As for the player, do you give your employer a hometown discount?

The Monforts are lousy owners, but they are entitled to run their franchise in as profitable manner as possible. What makes them lousy is not their payroll level, but the fact they can’t run a team as well as other similar markets who are actually competitive year in and year out for the most part (Twins, As, Cleveland, etc…)

Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave

by Mondogarage on Nov 13, 2008 4:05 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

making money is great and all

but baseball is not the proper forum for cutthroat capitalism—not when it comes at the expense of the fans and the product on the field. read my fanpost for the whole rant.

Aut Vincam Aut Periam

by PioneerSkies on Nov 13, 2008 4:12 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree, the Monforts can try to be profitable

But I think when you run a bad product on the field year in and year out and expect people to keep supporting it is what irks me. I am tired of the arguemnet that small market teams can’t compete, look at the A’s, Twins, Marlins, they get it and are able to field a good team every other year or so and develop talent. We can’t do any of that, outside of an incredible win streak last year, this team has been aweful for 10 plus years.

"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum

by Broncoman on Nov 13, 2008 4:35 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Running a bad product

But after 2007, who here actually thought the Rockies were trying to run out a bad product in 2008? In the end, the FO placed way too much faith in the ability of guys like Morales, Reynolds, and Hirsh, but 2008 wasn’t the result of ownership being cheap. Being wrong, yes, but not cheap.

Remember, it wasn’t Fogg who made Fogg a Red (not that he was any good anyway). The FO offered him the same contract, but his agent swore he’d get 3 years at $7-8m per. Vizcaino’s contract wasn’t going on the cheap — he simply pitched on the cheap (and should have been scouted better).

I’m somewhat convinced that if Helton’s contract were off the books, the team would have offered Holliday 6 years at $20m per. But you tell me which one of the Rockies previous nine-figure contracts worked out, and why signing Holliday to the same bears a greater than 60% chance of not being as much an albatross by, say, 2013.

It’s easy to point to the Monforts here, but signing Holliday to the deal Boras is looking for is just bad business sense for any team that doesn’t have a $120m payroll, and if you think a payroll that high is justified when you’re drawing 28k a game, that’s just nuts.

And beyond that, given Boras’ actions re ManRam, it’s 110% obvious that he wasn’t going to sign any extension until hitting his free agancy anyway. So trading Holliday is the only reasonable option. The issue is really did we get proper value, and that is unknowable at present.

It’s easy to argue ownership as cheap, but let’s see…they sign Tulo to the biggest contract ever given to a 1-year player. They sign Corpas, Cook, Hawpe all to large extensions. Maybe at a discount, but they committed tens of millions to these four players nonetheless. It seems clear they’re trying to put a decent product on the field.

You say the Marlins “get it”, yet they just dumped four arbitration-eligible players this week alone. Where they “get it” is that they’ve been fortunate their young pitching (which they built through scouting and development, not through solid ownership) has actually stayed healthy for the most part, and hit their ceilings. Yes, we fall short of the A’s and Twins, but that particular shortcoming is now ownership fault, but a combination of GM, scouting and development, minor league coaching, and to a certain extent, the simple truth that no one can truly know how a bunch of 18 year old draftees and signings will make it when they’re 23.

One can suggest overhauling the entire minor league and scouting departments, though recent successes (Jimenez, Tulo, CDI, Stewart) would seem to indicate that steps taken a few years ago are now bearing fruit.

Yes, small market teams can compete, but not when you’re paying your first baseman $16m a year AND your left fielder another $13m. That’s the salient point.

Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave

by Mondogarage on Nov 13, 2008 5:10 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Great points, but then they should of unloaded Helton two years ago to the Soxs

Much like the A’s, Marlins, and Twins, those teams understand the law of diminshing returns, the Red Soxs were open to bringing in Helton and yet the Monforts and O’Dwod couldn’t work on a deal, why because they claimed they had to be loyal to a franchise player and they weren’t getting value? The real reason was they were scared that trading Helton from that team would of killed any attendance that they had. Fact is, this team got very lucky and caught lightning in a bottle 1 year ago, but otherwise has been a failure. Just tired of the same old excuses from the Monfort clan, fact is, as long as they know there are 15,000 to 20,000 suckers willing to waste good money to see a lousy product they won’t change their ways. It has nothing to do with winning or losing, only to do with a profit margin. I guarentee that if attendance dropped to under 10,000 a game (hopefully it will) they would start looking at changing their model.

"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum

by Broncoman on Nov 14, 2008 2:17 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If Attendence

drops I will start skipping my classes to go to games. And if you must know I do not miss my classes for anything, I go to Colorado School of Mines, and missing them could be bad.

GO ROCKIES!!! JFK

by jrockies on Nov 14, 2008 2:29 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

And have 1/4 the IQ

"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum

by Broncoman on Nov 13, 2008 4:31 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think the demonizing has been going both ways

But I really don’t think it’s coming from either the FO or Holliday. You read O’Dowd’s comments about the trade without any context and he’s not laying any blame at Matt’s or Boras’s feet, nor are Holliday’s comments directly blaming the FO until they’re spun that way by reporters (one paper, one direction and the other vice versa). I think any animosity is mostly a media construction to sell copy, the actual people involved all seem to be aware that this is just a business like any other, dictated by market forces just like any other.

by Rox Girl on Nov 13, 2008 4:05 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm thinking

more about the “Holliday’s contract was a distraction” comment. In any event, I don’t blame the FO/owners for deciding not to pay market (well, I don’t like their cheapness, but I agree with Mondo’s note above); I just wish they would admit it. But of course, they’re damned if they do, damned if they don’t on that front.

by Teekalong on Nov 13, 2008 4:11 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wasn't it a distraction?

I remember reading about it a lot throughout the season, but the article in question went and implied that the FO was using said distraction as a primary excuse for how 2008 went, which seems to have been taken way out of context. That’s exactly what I’m talking about how the media’s playing this thing. At any rate, given that, I’m sure the Post would give the Monforts a free pass for saying they didn’t sign Holliday because he was too costly and that they’re in this for the money, right? Like you say, they’re in a no-win spot, but I don’t know if anybody’s crying over that.

by Rox Girl on Nov 13, 2008 4:44 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is so true

and so obvious as you read the average fan’s comments after an article written in the Post. One minute they will be going off on the Monforts for not paying Holliday what he wanted, and within seconds they will blame much of it on Helton and his contract. I just can’t figure out how people don’t see that they are asking ownership to do the same thing they are complaining about w/ another player.

by smokinRox on Nov 13, 2008 4:55 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If the so-called "contract situation"

for a player who just signed a 2 year contract influenced any performance on the field, the team was doomed for much bigger reasons.

by Teekalong on Nov 13, 2008 5:33 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree

To me, we can’t demonize someone for trying to get paid. I never heard him say, I will never sign a long term deal with the Rockies or give them a discount, I think the FO just tries to make these guys out to be all about the money.

"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum

by Broncoman on Nov 13, 2008 4:31 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Media

I have to agree with Rox Girl in her multiple posts above. The mass media tend to make people out to say things they didn’t just to get attention and sell things. While Matt didn’t say anything about not signing a long-term the FO, outside the “contract situation” never made any comments negative toward Matt either.
In short lets blame mass media for putting thoughts into people’s minds.

GO ROCKIES!!! JFK

by jrockies on Nov 13, 2008 5:40 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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