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Reflections on the Holliday trade

*****RANT WARNING*****

To me, how I feel about the Matt Holliday trade is a completely different issue from whether the Rockies got a good deal or not.

...though there is some overlap.

Star-divide

1) Did the Rockies get a good deal?
In short, it remains to be seen.  At first blush it looks like the Rockies are giving up a perennial All-Star for a poorman's Jeff Francis, a poorman's Brian Fuentes and a poorman's Dexter Fowler.  Too much depends on how these young players develop, what additional trades happen and any free agent signings that take place.  Everything remains to be seen ...but I'm skeptical.

2) How do I feel about the trade?
There is no quicker way to alienate a fan base than to sell/trade away fan favorite players.  Just ask the Florida Marlins' attendance numbers.

It's been a few days, but I'm still choking back the bile of contempt for the Monforts.  I'm inclined to agree with Kiszla and Donohue, in that this trade exposes Dick and Charlie Monfort in a way that never has happened before.  The Monforts have placed their profits above fielding a winning team and that makes me want to vomit and/or go buy an Eric Byrnes jersey.

The Rox only traded one year of Matt Holliday's service.  This necessarily assumes that the Rockies would not have had Holliday in 2010.  Therein lies the Monforts' telling flaw.  The Monforts were never going to make a serious effort at resigning Holliday.  It's not because he was asking for too much, and it's not because he had Scott Boras as his agent.  Holliday was only asking for what he was worth.  A below-market-value offer was made this spring, but only so that the Monforts can save face. 

The reason that ownership decided not to pay Holliday what he's worth wasn't because they couldn't afford it.  Small market teams are a myth in this age of revenue sharing.  Moreover, Rocktober generated a lot of money for the team.  Still, the Monforts didn't want to hang on to Holliday because they didn't think it would be the most profitable course of action.

The bottom line is that Dick and Charlie Monfort don't care about winning.  They care about making money.  The trade with Oakland was really just a salary dump.  Would anyone be surprised if the Monforts don't sign any big name free agents and just decide to keep that extra money?

Some people might not think that making money is such a bad thing.  I'm not trying to say that it is.  This is not some anti-capitalism rant.  All I'm saying is that Major League Baseball is the wrong forum.  If you want to be a millionaire, that's fine.  Go start a business, or invent something.  Best of luck to you.  Just don't mess with baseball.  The Monfort brothers are nothing more than greedy pimps using the National Pastime as their whore.

Additionally, in the drive to line their pockets, the Monforts are sacrificing more than just the competitive level of the team.  They are sacrificing their fan base.  Again, the Florida Marlins--a team that has had greater success than the Rox--are the prime example here.  The Fish are in a constant state of fire-sale and they struggle to get anyone to come to their games.  With the Holliday trade, the Rockies got one step closer to their fellow 1993 expansion franchise.

While I'm angry enough to write a scathing-yet-rambling post, I'm not at the point where I'm swearing off rooting for the Rox.  No, that would be an insult to the game itself.  Nevertheless, I have no misgivings about identifying myself as a former season ticket holder.

*****RANT OVER*****

Eat. Drink. Be Merry. But the above FanPost does not necessarily reflect the attitudes, opinions, or views of Purple Row's staff (unless, of course, it's written by the staff [and even then, it still might not]).

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I think you're missing some info

Holliday wouldn’t have signed with the Rockies unless they paid him more than what his agent thought he could get as a free agent on the open market. By keeping quiet about this intention, he loses nothing, the fans flock to his side because they think he’s been played by the greedy owners, when in fact they’re all just about as greedy as each other. He’s playing the exact same game in Oakland as we speak, and that’s why there’s also been an immediate understanding that he could be traded away from the A’s as soon as July even with an owner that’s publicly stated that they have money to spend. Do not kid yourself that he was only asking for what he’s worth. Seven years at $20 million per season is more than any team would go in this environment.

Second, signing Holliday to that kind of contract would have the same kind of crippling effect that the Todd Helton contract has on the Rockies, even if the Monforts sold the team to a different ownership group. Bud Selig carefully selects who owns franchises, and he’s been slowly weeding out the troublemakers. Do you really think he’d let a freespender by the Rockies?

You’re acting like MLB is some sort of pure sporting landscape outside of Denver where everybody signs their homegrown sluggers to massive contracts to keep them in town, but look around, it’s not. In those cases where players do sign with their initial club upon free agency, it’s usually due to some extenuating circumstance (the player just isn’t that great to begin with, the player’s willing to go below market to stay). I think this pure, poor Matt Holliday BS needs to stop. Go ahead and get mad at the Monforts, they’re greedy bastards too, but don’t let Holliday off the hook. If he really wanted to stay with the Rockies past 2009, he could have, they would have given him a below market deal like Jake Peavy got in a heartbeat. He still can come back and the Rockies will be glad to deal Carlos Gonzalez to his next club, but let’s not kid ourselves. Reality is that Matt wants what he thinks is coming to him, and that’s his right, but he’s placing money above loyalty, the Monforts are doing likewise, sun rises in east, sets in west.

by Rox Girl on Nov 13, 2008 4:36 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think

Mixing the Todd reference in here is odd. Did Todd really cripple this team? I think its a very self-serving argument, because the Monforts are the ones who unilaterally say (or imply) Todd’s deal stops them from doing other things. Nobody outside of Colorado has enforced some rule that the Rox shall no longer invest in free agents because of Todd Helton. The Monforts/FO have made the choice.

I’ve yet to hear any compelling case to justify how the team would be better if Helton would not have been given this deal, likely leading to his departure in the early 2000s (when, of course, he was one of the 5 best players in the game). Maybe the savvy FO would have used that money to turn the squad into a perennial contender. Possibly we’d be a solid small market team like Minny. Based on the FO’s other moves, however, I suspect we’d be the Royals.

by Teekalong on Nov 13, 2008 5:02 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hay...

I think the “Helton’s contract broke the camel’s back” card is way over played. He’s one of the few things that kept people coming back to the park through the thin years, as well as the one who started the ball rolling in 2007 with the shot off of Taco Stand.

One thing’s for sure, there will be plenty of elbow room at Coors Field in 2009.

by jefe_13 on Nov 20, 2008 6:51 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd be interested in your (or anyone's) thoughts

on a salary cap. I know its probably not realistic for baseball considering the massive restructuring it would require, but its a no-nonsense, objective way to marginalize the whole “profit-seeking owner” thing out of the baseball equation. I know salary caps are far from perfect in other sports, but at the end of the day you can’t really discern the Steinbrenners from the Monforts in pro football—and to the extent you can, Jerry Jones doesn’t have a massive compeititve advantage over Green Bay or AZ or whoever. Add the NBA style salary floor concept, and you’re on to something.

I know the cap is far from revolutionary, and MLB presents unique challenges. I’m sure the players would oppose it too, but I agree with your notions in principle. Dodgerfan to this day decries the way Fox’s corporate approach ruined baseball here for a long time.

by Teekalong on Nov 13, 2008 4:43 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think Baseball needs it

But as long as you have a sniveling coward like Selig running the show, then it won’t happen. It would make baseball more competetive and generate more interest from a fan presepctive and generate highre revenues. The NFL realized that they were selling a product and having unwatchable games because teams couldn’t compete because of revenue was bad for the league, baseball tries to market teams (Yankees, Red Soxs, Dodgers, Cubs, Cardinals) but doesn’t see that it would be better for the league long term to market baseball instead and make it a bigger appeal to smaller market teams.

"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum

by Broncoman on Nov 13, 2008 4:49 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Salary cap

I think the Union is a far bigger hurdle to getting a salary cap than Selig is. I doubt he would argue about how successful it’s been for the NFL. But it would take a crisis or a long strike for the Union to ever agree, I think.

by holly96 on Nov 13, 2008 5:26 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree the Union is against it

But big market teams like the Yankees, Cubs, Red Soxs, and Angels are also against it. Selig doesn’t have the guts to stand up to either the union or owners, what they need is someone like Pete Rozell that is willing to listen to both sides and do what is best for the game, but since Selig was an owner, he carries no cred with the players, and most owners see him as their personnel lackie.

"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum

by Broncoman on Nov 14, 2008 2:22 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually, the union sees all commissioners as the owners' lackey

That is because it is the owners who directly pay the commissioner’s salary, and have the authority to hire and fire the commissioner.

Selig is seen as more so than the others, but to a great extent, all commissioners are seen as such.

Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave

by Mondogarage on Nov 14, 2008 4:13 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

as much as I am angry at the Monforts right now

it will never compare to the anger and disgust I direct toward Bud Selig—I hate the Used Car Salesman with the fire of a thousand suns. I’ll spare everybody another rant and keep this short: once an owner, always an owner.

Aut Vincam Aut Periam

by PioneerSkies on Nov 14, 2008 5:30 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A vote against a Salary Cap in MLB

First, its been proven time and again recently that you don’t have to have a huge payroll in order to compete with the big money teams (See the Rockies, Rays, Twin’s, A’s, etc.). Yes, a high salary team may have a better chance at staying in the playoff hunt year after year but there are numerous examples of failed big spenders (See the Mariners, Orioles, Rangers.. etc)

Second, if they set a cap, they will also set a minimum (the Union will demand it). This minimum will most likely be higher than at least 25% of the teams are currently spending. This may actually hurt a small market team because they will have to spend a bigger portion of their revenues at the big league level leaving less to spend in scouting and development. The big market teams will then have a huge advantage that will be much more damaging than what is happening now. Right now, all teams have a fairly equal chance at developing players. Most scouts are paid the same whether or not they work for the Yankees or the Marlins. Most teams have a similar structure throughout the farm system. This will change big time if smaller revenue teams are forced to spend more at the big league level year after year. Revenue sharing will help this problem but only slightly. The NFL and the NBA don’t have this problem because they have no minor leagues. MLB lives and breathes through player development.

I also believe not having a salary cap will help keep TV revenues higher for all teams because the one thing that is shared is TV Network contracts. Face it, the reason why the Boston’s and the New York’s are on ESPN so much is because there are more of their fans watching Sports center. If a salary cap is implemented and league wide parity emerges, we may then have the privilege of watching the Rays and the Pirates of the world in the World Series. That is just not good. Big Salary teams are big city teams and thus bigger TV ratings which means more money for all teams. You can bet your last dime that the main quarrel behind the scenes in the NFL is the television networks fear of having a small market team in the Super Bowl. It hurts ratings and their overall revenues. Revenues that are placed back into the league through higher future television contracts.

Beyond all that is my belief that salary caps and revenue sharing is not really necessary in MLB because every team can develop or trade for a solid starting eight without spending huge dollars. Once that is in place, then any team, big or small, can pay market value for top pitchers and win fairly regularly.

by roxhead on Nov 16, 2008 2:32 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I disagree with a lot of this

but some of it has good points.

A salary cap in baseball, would be different then the NFL, where turn over is great from year to year. In baseball, there is the factor of development from the minors.

A salary cap in baseball would have to include, signing bonuses, draft slot contracts, a salary minimum, better revenue sharing, a limitation on signing of overseas free agents (Boston, paid $50 million just for the right to negotiate with Matsusaka!), among others.

But right now MLB is breaking down into 3 groups. The big boys, the middle class and the have nots. Anybody CAN win sure, but being able to sign a Holliday or an A-Rod or Sabathia really helps a teams chances….and the fact is, 2/3 of the teams, can’t do that. They are competing with one hand tied behind their backs. As an example: I’ve seen the Rockies, and the LA Dodgers, and both have holes that need to be filled for the 09 season. But if I had to bet on who wins the NL West, I’d put it on the Dodgers, cause they have the Cash to fill their holes, while the Rockies have to pray that minor league prospects pan out.

Better revenue sharing, and a salary cap would help even out the playing field. Poor management, poor scouting, bad luck all will happen, but under the conditions right now, Boston will be in 9 out of the next 10 playoffs, or at least in a race in September, while the Orioles have already been eliminated for 09.

Thought Clint Hurdle should be fired before it was cool.

by Redhawk on Nov 17, 2008 8:05 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree with your points

Denver has shown that fielding a winning team will fill the stands and make the team profitable, the Monforts can’t see the forest for the trees, and see only salary and poor attendance. Well salaries don’t cause poor attendance, poor teams cause poor attendance, get rid of O’Dowd and Hurdle and get some real leadership, do whatever you can within reason to keep your good players and people will give you a pass if they know you are trying, but I swear I have no urge to ever pay for a Rockie game with the Monforts ruining the team and caring only about their pocket books.

"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum

by Broncoman on Nov 13, 2008 4:44 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Owners care about making money?

Holy crap, dude, you’ve stumbled on something revolutionary. I’ll wait for the film at 11.

Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.

by Franchise26 on Nov 13, 2008 4:48 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmmm

I can’t get onboard the “this is a salary dump, the Monforts have to go” bandwagon after this one move. Did we save money? Yes. Are we worse today than we were Monday? Probably. But we’ve got a long way to go this offseason. If we take some of the savings, invest that into the rotation, and find a nice upgrade at 2nd, the team could very well be improved next year. Now, if spring training rolls around and the Monforts have pocketed all of the money saved in this deal, while there are still holes in the rotation and at 2nd, then I’ll revisit this conversation.

by mattrob on Nov 13, 2008 5:00 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is my take as well

BUT…I’m in the glass half empty, and I assume it’s a salary dump. If the Rockies do the right thing and invest in a quality starting pitcher, then I’ll be ok. But we are several months away from pitchers and catchers reporting…so we have time to see what happens next.

Ben Sheets

Thought Clint Hurdle should be fired before it was cool.

by Redhawk on Nov 14, 2008 8:05 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

everybody remember

that this was just a rant. I’m just an aggravated fan and ownership is an easy target. Sure this post was over the top and I definitely ignored all these relevant points that you folks have pointed out. But I was venting—it doesn’t mean I’m 100% right about everything and it doesn’t even mean that I’m trying to convince anyone that any part of anything I say was right. Just venting. Just a rant.

If I had it in me, I would consider every viewpoint and be completely right about everything all of the time. If I had it in me, to stop my random thoughts and my dumb dreams, I could deal with this non-stop spinning world.

But I’d rather sit back, just smoke cigarettes, be the one with the loudest mouth, and be the most closed minded as I could get.

Aut Vincam Aut Periam

by PioneerSkies on Nov 13, 2008 9:11 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You are excused....

for ranting. I do it a lot myself, and it does help one feel better after getting it off your chest.

I think there are too many apologists for the ownership, so ranting is a good balance. Fact is, too often the owners are excused from making impact player free agent signings, which the Monforts have NEVER done. The Hampton/Neagle signings and Helton extension occured when the team was under the control of Jerry McMorris. Since the Monforts bought out his stake, not a single high-priced free agent has been signed. Nor have we traded for any All Stars.

This is inexcusable. It seems that since since some use the hindsight of what lousy contracts Hampton/Neagle/Helton were, the owners are excused for never trying again. This is absurd. If you fall of the horse, and aren’t willing to get back on, then maybe you should stop riding horses. That is, maybe if ownership is institutionally incapable of making a long-term committment to an All Star player, even one of our homegrown stars, then maybe they aren’t cut out to own an MLB team.

We are nearly perrenial losers for a reason (nearly, since we had one miraculous month this decade). We don’t have owners who make consistent effort to contend each year. The three ordinary players we got for Holliday were and are replaceable with players on our own roster. They are just “depth”, not quality, for 2009. Thus, we could have waited until the July 2009 trade deadline to make a deal, and wouldn’t have been missing out on much. With Holliday playing in his contract year, he may have had his best year ever and led us into 1st place by the All Star break. Ahh, but THAT’s the conundrum, isn’t it? If we are in it at the deadline, ownership would be even more scewered for trading Holliday than they are now! Thus, they decide to absorb the arrows of fan derision when they think it’s least painful.

I’m hopeful other moves will be made to make 2009 a season to be hopeful about. But I ain’t holding my breath.

Rant over. And now I feel better. :)

by GoRoxGo on Nov 14, 2008 10:01 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree with some of your points

Although I think fans are hitching to the wrong wagon in Holliday. Ringolsby’s column today is right that Boras clients simply don’t work that way and there is more reason to think Holliday would have followed their typical pattern than there is to think otherwise. That said, I think you’re absolutely valid that this shouldn’t excuse the Monforts from going out and finding other quality players via free agency. We still have a glaring hole in our pitching staff, oh look we have a windfall of profit from dealing Holliday, why can’t we use it to fill the hole? Why can’t they go after Orlando Hudson (I’d much rather the team spend money up the middle than at the corners) or sign Rocco Baldelli -who’s likely to be more affordable than most OF’s this year) to take some of the pressure off Spilborghs. I think these are moves, save Hudson, that could be done relatively affordably that would still help the team considerably, but there’s not even an attempt to look for solutions except via the scrapheap or hoping that Atkins nets the answer in a trade. The team will never get over the last hurdle until it’s willing to go a little farther than it has. Instead, I’m afraid we’re getting closer to another cycle of mediocrity or worse, but I don’t think Matt was the solution that most Rockies fans do.

by Rox Girl on Nov 14, 2008 2:58 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Keeping Holliday wasn't my priority.....

however, trading Holliday for a special talent was. I have no problem with the IDEA of trading him. My problem is with the EXECUTION and TIMING of the trade. It seems that we could have packaged Holliday last July with Fuentes, and gotten a true ace-type young pitcher such as Price or Hughes. It seems that, lacking that special talent being avaiable, we could have held on to Holliday until next July to see if he explodes in his contract season to become a true MVP.

Alternatively, why wouldn’t Charlie and Dan want to wait to pull the trigger on this type of trade until season ticket payments are made by December 3rd? I’ll bet that they cost themselves about 1,000 re-ups by holders from the timing and results of this one trade alone. Not a good idea to piss off your fanbase just before asking them for money.

That’s not only incompetence, it’s bad business.

by GoRoxGo on Nov 14, 2008 6:04 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Those trades weren't happening

Teams are hording their young pitching like nothing else lately. The last elite pitching prospects to exchange hands were Garza and Volquez, and it cost equally young, cheap and elite players. Holliday could have exploded in his contract season or his femur could have. The former wouldn’t have effected our return as much as the latter. And to your last point to the timing of this, well, I have nothing to say except you’re right.

by Rox Girl on Nov 14, 2008 6:14 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

someone special

could have been acquired, if not those ace types. Certainly, Fuentes/Holliday could have bagged us a nice haul compared to what we got.

by GoRoxGo on Nov 14, 2008 7:45 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hey, when you are right you are right

Don’t be sorry, all of your points were very true.

"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum

by Broncoman on Nov 14, 2008 2:23 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I feel you

Sometimes it’s irritating being a fan when you really DO want to make an emotional, knee-jerk reaction, and then a bunch of people come swarming in to pick it apart. Part of being a sports fan is being irrational (I firmly believe this) and on occasions such as this, um, trade, I tend to censure myself since I don’t want to have to deal with people telling me I’m being irrational. Uh, yeah, I am. I know this.

For the record, I am not at all crazy about the trade either. A third center fielder, a third closer, and a “project” pitcher. Hurray. I’m thrilled. Just what our needs were.

Blast and botheration.

by Silverblood on Nov 14, 2008 3:22 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

On the subject of salary cap

Remember, it was the owners’ attempt to unilaterally impose a salary cap that caused the 1994 strike — you know, the one that cost an entire season and World Series.

Baseball revenues are now 3x what they were in 1994, and the union will never accept a salary cap. And frankly, nor should they. Ultimately, pro athletes are in the entertainment business. Why shouldn’t they try to maximize their value. No one says Hollywood actors, or rap stars, etc. should be subject to a salary cap. No one is subjecting owners to a profit cap.

And while teams like the Yankees will always have significant revenue advantages, how many World Series have they even been to this decade? Exactly zero. As long as teams such as the Rays, Astros, Cardinals, etc. can make it to the World Series, who says there’s no competitive balance?

Yes, there are caps in the NFL, NBA, and NHL. And look how weak the unions in each of those sports are. The NBA players decertified their own union, because their top salaried players didn’t want to go any longer without their bling. The NFL players couldn’t get guranteed contracts. The NHLPA? A complete cave job.

No, I can confidently predict there will never be a salary cap in major league baseball. It’s not the players’ problem that some owners don’t step up to the plate, and revenue sharing is an owners’ issue, not a players’ issue.

Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave

by Mondogarage on Nov 13, 2008 10:21 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think

the cap is not realistic for the reasons you mention, and because baseball has had a massive surge in popularity recently. Also, I frankly don’t think that baseball power brokers have any interest in improving competitive balance (I disagree with your assertion that just because they Yankees don’t win every year, that equals competitive balance) because baseball is such a regional sport. Unlike the NFL and to a large part NBA, most baseball fans care about their team, and to a much lesser extent their division, and that’s it. As such, only the true “national” teams draw eyes for the playoffs and WS. MLB/Fox is probably still crying over narrowly missing a Dodgers/Sox series. Anything that increases the possibility of a Rays/Rox series would be actively discouraged.

by Teekalong on Nov 14, 2008 10:55 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

depending on what rockies do w/ street

apparently, beane was very flexible and realistic with his value since he was getting expensive + sort of regressing/injury issues

O’Dowd is trying to market him as a former all star closer who is still pitching at that high caliber level

looking at the current market, its suddenly filled with several available closers + teams could opt for setup types

by Asfan4ever723 on Nov 15, 2008 2:57 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nothing wrong with marketing him that way

And then other teams can counter-offer according to what they think his value actually should be. It’s looking to me more than likely that the Rockies wait until July to trade him, hoping that he starts the season performing more like the pitcher O’Dowd’s marketing him as (against NL West lineups, that might not be difficult) than the expensive, injured regressing arm you (and probably many, if not most, others) see him as. I think ultimately what the Rox will look for is a trade like the Nationals got for Jon Rauch last season.

by Rox Girl on Nov 15, 2008 3:50 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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