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Friday Rockpile: 2009 NL West Rotation Early Look

With today being the opening of free agent season, I thought it would be good to point out that every team in our division should be looking to the market to shore up their rotation. It's becoming clear, however, that just one team (Los Angeles) is intending to do that. The Padres have laid claim to team irrelevant, so similarly to the Giants before last season, I'm just going to ignore them completely to save myself some work. At any rate, here's a current look at what the other four teams are sporting as far as starters:

Arizona:

  • Brandon Webb
  • Dan Haren
  • Max Scherzer
  • Doug Davis
  • some junkballer that makes the Rockies look bad probably, right now Yusmeiro Petit

Really, that's a scary enough front end that it should make up for the back end woes, but 2008 proved that it's not scary enough to make up for the D-backs anemic offense. Arizona also continues to have a depth issue which leaves them vulnerable to injury. Will AZ's offense see more improvement in 2009 to give Haren and Webb more support?

Los Angeles:

  • Chad Billingsley
  • Clayton Kershaw
  • Hiroki Kuroda
  • Larry
  • Moe/Curly/Shep

Okay, so it's not quite that bad for Los Angeles, James McDonald is a decent prospect, but he's an unknown at the MLB level. Kershaw may take a step forward next season, but add him to McDonald and it seems to be a re-enactment of Rockies 2008 that the Dodgers are trying to pull. I do have confidence that the Dodgers will sign somebody better than Kip Wells to help the unstable youth situation (apparently they're looking at Randy Johnson), but for all intents and purposes, this rotation looks to be building for 2010 as much as we are.

San Francisco:

  • Tim Lincecum
  • Matt Cain
  • Jonathan Sanchez
  • Barry Zito
  • Noah Lowry? Kevin Pucetas?

The Giants are more relevant than the Padres now with the latter gutting their rotation, but San Fran probably still needs some offensive help to compete in the NL West. Their rotation shows the same ills at the bottom as everybody else, but they have more pitching depth than either the Dodgers or D-backs

Colorado:

  • Aaron Cook
  • Ubaldo Jimenez
  • Jeff Francis
  • Jorge De La Rosa
  • Greg Smith

Comparing the Rockies three LHP's at the bottom to the Giants three LHP's is somewhat encouraging. Last season our three combined for a VORP of about 50, but about thirty of that came from Smith's fluky good year. Still if you're going to knock him off that pedestal, you probably at the same time have to raise Francis, and if we're lucky, De La Rosa. The good thing about the Rockies is that their depth here is superior to anybody else's in the division. Breakthroughs by Franklin Morales, Jason Hirsh or Greg Reynolds are more likely than the AAA pitchers of the other three teams.

So how much are we going to miss that #1 guy, and is our strength at the bottom of the rotation enough to make up for it? Eh, probably not.

Let's look at Arizona first, consider that Webb and Haren were at least three wins ahead of Cook and Jimenez last season. Although I somewhat doubt this, U-ball might be able to make up some of that ground with improvement, but getting three more wins than Scherzer/Davis/Petit from Francis/De La Rosa/Smith isn't going to be easy. I'm particularly wary of Scherzer; as long as he's healthy, he's going to be very effective, and I can see that Arizona trio matching our 3-5 next season if they pitch all year. Where we'll be able to make up the most on the D-backs is with sixth starters, and because you're talking about unknowns there, it's hard to predict. The only two ways I see us cutting that three game deficit completely from the top of the rotation is with significant time lost by Webb, Haren and Scherzer or with a combined JDLR/Morales breakout. If Arizona loses a combined 20 starts from their top three, or if we get complete quality seasons from both of our most likely two down rotation candidates, the Rockies will have a better rotation in 2009, otherwise we have to make up the ground via the lineup or bullpen. I suppose there is a chance, however slight, that Greg Smith repeats his 2008 performance and inherits the Tom Glavine mantel for being the craftiest lefty on the planet, but of these three unlikely scenarios, this one seems the most remote.

How about with Los Angeles? Right now, the Dodgers rotation is too much in flux to know for sure, but Billingsley plus Kershaw plus Kuroda is not nearly far enough ahead of Cook plus Jimenez plus Francis to make up for projected replacement level performances at the bottom two slots. If the Dodgers sign RJ, they still figure to have a significant gap in the rotation when he needs to rest his back. Unfortunately, I know this isn't how they're going to enter next season. I just don't know who it will be that we have to worry about. My hope is that they get shut out of the starters completely, but barring that, I hope they overpay for somebody on a five year contract and that it's not Sabathia. Anybody else and I think we've still got a decent chance of staying with them in 2009.

While the Giants top two starters had a 4.5 game edge on the Rockies top two starters last season, the next three slots in the rotation were so bad for the Giants that we made up that entire deficit and the two teams were more or less a wash with their starters. Okay, that's a lie, but the Rockies could have made that ground up if it wasn't for Mark Redman/Livan Hernandez/Greg Reynolds. At any rate, thus far the Giants don't seem to be trying to patch the leaks in the rotation, actually looking to deal Sanchez if it helps their offense. Lacking depth at the moment, I think they'll have to continue to rob Peter to pay Paul unless they're willing to part with some of their highly thought of prospects. Otherwise it's going to be a few years of waiting before they're good again, but in this division they certainly could get lucky.

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Micah Owings went to the Reds

Player to be named later in the Dunn deal.

by RockyMtnRedbird on Nov 14, 2008 12:07 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Oops, it was supposed to say Max Scherzer

If you read the text, you’ll see that’s who I meant, I’ll correct it, thanks.

by Rox Girl on Nov 14, 2008 12:18 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I figured as much

I’m sure the Reds wish they had gotten Scherzer instead of Owings. I hope Scherzer is able to stay healthy. The dude can sling it.

MIZ-ZOU

by RockyMtnRedbird on Nov 14, 2008 12:22 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Sounds like a “Dunn” deal.

by onholliday on Nov 15, 2008 1:47 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Wild Card for Dodgers?

What hope, if any, do the Dodgers have of Schmidt giving them anything next year?

by RockyMtnRedbird on Nov 14, 2008 12:13 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Schmidt's an issue two ways...

As it’s just hard to say how healthy he’ll be, or how good he’ll be even if he is healthy. As you can tell, I’m completely writing him off at this point, but if he does return strong, he’d certainly help them.

by Rox Girl on Nov 14, 2008 12:21 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Even if he recovers from the shoulder surgery, I’m sure he’ll find some other injury to lose time to.

I do wonder if the Schmidt failure will make the Dodger hesitant to commit big money, long term to a pitcher again.

by RockyMtnRedbird on Nov 14, 2008 12:25 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Kevin Brown?

7 years, $105,000,000….I don’t think that franchise will ever learn.

by GreeleyRoxFan on Nov 14, 2008 12:54 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

How... how could you do that to me?

Okay, that’s a lie, but the Rockies could have made that ground up if it wasn’t for Mark Redman/Livan Hernandez/Greg Reynolds.

Don’t insult my Greg by comparing him to teh sackz of fail!!111

/yes I know Greg Reynolds was also a sackz of fail last year

//shut up

Blast and botheration.

by Silverblood on Nov 14, 2008 12:25 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Bullpen Preview

I’m going to probably have to do a complete post about the teams’ pens tomorrow, but after getting discouraged that there’s still a significant gap between us and the D-backs in the rotations, I wanted to see how likely we are to make some of that up with relief work this year.

So far, the D-backs lose Juan Cruz (1.123 WXRL in 2008) and Brandon Lyon (1.329), leaving them with Chad Qualls (1.957), Tony Pena (1.629) and they hope the Nationals version of Jon Rauch (2.026) rather than the AZ version(-0.635). After that they

The Rockies gain

by Rox Girl on Nov 14, 2008 1:35 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Urgh.. Stupid thumb and hypersensitive mouse pad

I was going to point out that the Rockies lose Fuentes, but gain Street and hope Corpas recovers. Right now, I guess it hinges on Vizcaino, Rauch and Corpas, but I was wanting to see a clearer advantage here.

by Rox Girl on Nov 14, 2008 1:37 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Did you

mean Rusch? I personally hope Corpas and Vizcaino recover, Street pitches the way he did in the end and Buchholz pitches the way he did all year. If this happens I think ADVANTAGE ROCKIES, but AZ could surprise me.

GO ROCKIES!!! JFK

by jrockies on Nov 14, 2008 2:46 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Nope, I meant Rauch

Although I admit it was awkward on my part to put the D-back between the two Rockies.

If Rauch recovers to his Nats work, but neither Viz nor Corpas do, advantage D-backs.
If either of the two Rockies recover to their 2007 form, then I think we do have the advantage, if both do and Rauch doesn’t, then I think we’ll make solid inroads into that rotation deficit we have. Otherwise, I don’t think the advantage we’ll have in the bullpen will be enough to make up that gap by itself and we’ll have to gain a couple of games or so on them with our lineup.

by Rox Girl on Nov 14, 2008 3:07 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I am not at all impressed

with what I’m reading on the Rox official site as possible bullpen targets.

…as well as Jeremy Affeldt, who helped the Rockies to the 2007 World Series but signed with the Reds last winter. Also, Eddie Guardado, Trever Miller, Mike Maroth and Ron Villone are potential targets…

MORE veteraniness/over-the-hillness/plain incompetence. No, seriously? SERIOUSLY? How are any of these guys better than what we already have?

Blast and botheration.

by Silverblood on Nov 14, 2008 3:33 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Better?

I don’t think they are. We still have Speier, Morillo (who didn’t pitch great last year in COS) and Grilli (if he doesn’t regress) for the bullpen. I am probably missing a couple people who could impact in 2009, but I think we need to get a front end starting pitcher instead of more bullpen help.

GO ROCKIES!!! JFK

by jrockies on Nov 14, 2008 3:40 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Me too.

Which was why I was so pissed we didn’t try to match the Holliday trade to our actual NEEDS, i.e. quality (or at least non-Kip-Wellsian) starting pitching.

Blast and botheration.

by Silverblood on Nov 14, 2008 3:43 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Speier?

I’m ready for him to move along. Grilli should be considered a decent option if he’s cheap. Has Morillo ever earned a spot? I agree we have other priorities, but let’s not behave as though the bullpen is a strength…

by Teekalong on Nov 14, 2008 4:17 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Our best lefty in the bullpen right now: Glendon Rusch

And behind him in the lefty hierarchy…. um… uh… do we still have Cedrick Bowers? (We don’t.)

The Rockies need a lefty reliever who can specialize in the late innings. Affeldt can do that and more – he was Cincy’s best reliever last year. Miller can do the LOOGY thing – lefties hit .209 off him last year. Villone fanned a batter per inning in the LOOGY role with the Cardinals last year and lefties hit .176 off him.

And that took me two minutes to look up, which to me is a little easier on the old self-esteem than “Eew, these guys are old and therefore must be awful.”

Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.

by Franchise26 on Nov 14, 2008 3:44 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I like bringing Affeldt back

never understand why he was so hated around here before, and obviously he seems to have improved. Not a cure-all, but not a bad acquisition at all.

by Teekalong on Nov 14, 2008 4:18 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Because

he was a lefty, that couldn’t get out lefties. His BAA was higher for left handed hitters then it was for righties. Affeldt wasn’t a LOOGy, but he was decent against righties, unlike most LOOGYs, and can work multiple innings.

Now, could everyday Eddie have enough in the tank to be LOOGY? Interesting name…not sure he’s got enough left.

Thought Clint Hurdle should be fired before it was cool.

by Redhawk on Nov 14, 2008 4:26 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Bad LOOGY

He was a bad LOOGY but appears to have turned into a pretty decent reliever.

by MADness on Nov 14, 2008 4:28 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Correction

He wasn’t really a LOOGY with Colorado but Hurdle did go out of his way to bring him in specifically to face left handed batters.

by MADness on Nov 14, 2008 4:29 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Smith and Street

I’m out of the loop on why Greg Smith and Huston Street are not looked upon more optimistically? They both are only 25 and spent pretty short periods in the minors with relatively good success.

Would not shock me at all to see both of these guys contribute a lot this year.

BTW – Isn’t there some sort of sports publication named Smith and Street??

TGFPR!!

by jlot10 on Nov 14, 2008 3:40 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Rule number 1 in the sabermetric community:

If you are traded by Billy Beane, you can’t possibly be of much value.

(And I say that with my tongue only slightly planted in my cheek.)

Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.

by Franchise26 on Nov 14, 2008 3:50 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Smith is supposedly one of the "keys to the deal."

I hope this isn’t one of O’Dowd’s observations like preferring Reynolds over Lincecum.

Blast and botheration.

by Silverblood on Nov 14, 2008 3:53 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Why wouldn't it be

"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum

by Broncoman on Nov 14, 2008 4:12 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Also

Smith reminds me a lot of Francis. Lefty, doesn’t have overpowering stuff, relies on location. So if he’s on, he’s likely to be pretty good (he also got the lowest run support in baseball last year, which helped contribute to the lopsided record) but if not, well, you know.

Blast and botheration.

by Silverblood on Nov 14, 2008 3:57 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Command

He lacks the plus command that Francis has.

My understanding is that Smith relies more on changing speeds and location than on command. His huge amount of walks seems to support this assumption.

by MADness on Nov 14, 2008 4:03 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Smith

His walk totals were generally very low in the minor leagues and he was considered a pitcher with excellent control on his way through the Arizona system. My guess is that he, like a lot of young pitchers without plus stuff, got caught nibbling in his rookie year, causing his walk totals to go up. I would not be shocked to see a reduction by over a walk per 9 in his rate next year as he gets more comfortable at the big league level.

Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.

by Franchise26 on Nov 14, 2008 4:07 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I would expect him to get lite up like a Christmas tree at Coors field

I think going to an Amercian league team got his ERA up, but coming here won’t solve that problem, I just can’t see why they want a BP pitcher, get guys who have power here.

"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum

by Broncoman on Nov 14, 2008 4:14 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

The gamble

That is the gamble that he represents.

Obviously the Rockies felt that he would make progress with his control but if he fails to do so there is a very good chance of him being a total disaster in Colorado.

If he pitched at Petco he would be a safe bet to be productive but he will need to have continued improvement in order to do so in Colorado.

Time will tell if the Rockies personnel guys and scouts were correct.

by MADness on Nov 14, 2008 4:28 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Reason for optimism

     His control was very good in the minors, and I’ve attached my hopes to that history. I think a young guy like that could lose his control in the majors for two reasons: 1) He’s just inexperienced and afraid to challenge major leaguers. 2) He came from a NL organization where the low strike zone was probably emphasized and then immediately played his debut season in the AL where the strike zone is much higher (as was evidenced by the World Series, I thought). So now on the positive he’s a year older, has moved to the NL (no DH either), and still has a very good defense behind him. I think that about offsets the new Coors-lite w/Humidor, and I’m cautiously optimistic that he will put up another good year. Say, close to 200 innings with an ERA in the zipcode of 4.25 while playing half his games at Coors. Very nice in the #4 or 5 slot in the rotation.

by IowaRockie on Nov 14, 2008 5:04 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Those numbers

If he puts up those numbers then I would think that he would have to qualify as a huge win for the Rockies.

by MADness on Nov 14, 2008 5:23 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Tradeable

I like having a lefty that might work out but if not is tradeable because of his age and because he is left-handed. I’m not sure he actually sticks in the rotation to begin the year; I think it will be a great competition in the spring. I keep holding out that Hirsch will become the talent he can be, but injuries and consistency have really hurt him.

by brainteaser on Nov 15, 2008 4:07 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Right On IowaRockie

I’m speaking with a little inside knowledge, but you are right on the money IowaRockie. There is more to Smith than the numbers show. Franchise26 must be new to the sport of baseball as anything Billy Beane trades turns to gold – see Dan Harren (Arizona) and Joe Blantan who won a world series with the Phillies. Based upon Franchise26 comments, those guys were crap. Can you explain that Colorado logic Franchise26?? I take it neither of you have talked to Smith or played against him. He has very good stuff and has a tremendous knowledge of the game and how to pitch in critical situations. Smith should fit in nicely as the #4 or #5 starter maybe better depending on how he corrects his control problem – which is more mental than mechanical I believe is his case. When looking at Smith’s stats, notice he received the lowest run support of ANY major league pitcher this past season. Records and ERA’s can be deceiving — last time I looked he couldn’t bat in the American League. There were a few games he lost 1-0 (his first complete game against Anahiem in Anaheim) ; 2-1 or 3-1. He did his job of keeping the A’s close in the late innings; it is not his fault the A’s can’t hit. When Smith was with Lancaster in the High-A California league, his ERA was in the low 2’s as it is widely known that the ballparks in the Cal High A league are hitters / home run parks. So I suggest MADness and Franchise26 do their research before criticizing. It’s always easy to criticize what you are not familiar with…..Hope to see a retraction from you guys when Smith starts to produce in 2009 but then again that may not be the Colorado thing to do.

by TexasTodd on Nov 17, 2008 6:57 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

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