Tuesday Rockpile: Are the Colorado Rockies ready to Dye?
ESPN's Phil Rogers has an article on Chicago White Sox GM Kenny Williams' interest in trading basically anyone on the roster. Rogers brings up Williams' already-known interest in Willy Taveras, but he also mentions that the Rockies (and the Dodgers) may be interested in Jermaine Dye. Dye has a limited no-trade clause, allowing him to block a trade to 6 teams.
Now as Rox Girl brought up tangentially almost two weeks ago, Jermaine Dye was a Rockie for a short time in 2001 before being traded the same day for . . . let's not drudge up bad memories of the past.
First up, Dye's contract status: Dye is due $11.5M in 2009 and has a $12M mutual option for 2010 (with a $1M buyout).
After a severe dropoff from his 2006 season performance in 2007, Jermaine Dye bounced back in 2008. He'll be 35 in 2009.
| Year | PA | R | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | BB | SO | SB | CS | AVG | OBP | SLG | EqA | VORP |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2005 | 579 | 74 | 29 | 2 | 31 | 86 | 39 | 99 | 11 | 4 | 0.274 | 0.333 | 0.512 | 0.289 | 27.7 |
| 2006 | 611 | 103 | 27 | 3 | 44 | 120 | 59 | 118 | 7 | 3 | 0.315 | 0.385 | 0.622 | 0.326 | 64.6 |
| 2007 | 561 | 68 | 34 | 0 | 28 | 78 | 45 | 107 | 2 | 1 | 0.254 | 0.317 | 0.486 | 0.277 | 12.2 |
| 2008 | 645 | 96 | 41 | 2 | 34 | 96 | 44 | 104 | 3 | 2 | 0.292 | 0.344 | 0.541 | 0.293 | 37.7 |
Now, trading Dye won't be a sell low situation for Williams as it was in the Nick Swisher trade from a couple of weeks ago. However, Dye is an aging veteran who regressed after a strong season in 2006. While he came back strong in 2008, can Dye continue that level of production? And what about his legs? Reading over at South Side Sox, I get the sense that many of the fans over there expect Dye to wind up with a leg injury soon.
Ken Rosenthal has a new report out that the asking price for Dye is a young starting pitcher and more.
Vote in the poll.
-----
At the end of the last link, Rosenthal writes that the Rockies are inclined to keep Garrett Atkins, "at least for the moment." Or to put it another way, they haven't found the right deal yet.
-----
The Denver Post adds another name to the lefty reliever list: Brian Shouse.
He was the third best reliever on the Brewers last year with a 0.922 WXRL, behind Salomon Torres (2.930) and Carlos Villanueva (1.497). He'll be 41 at the end of the 2009 season.
And while Clint Hurdle, at the end of the article, said the Rockies internally discussed Will Ohman, Ohman's agent has yet to receive a call from the Rockies.
-----
Don Baylor on what he plans to do as hitting coach:
"What I like to preach a lot is the mental part of the game. We have to be more selective," Baylor said. "You don't have more than one sac fly (by mid-April), that says there's not a lot of thinking going on at the plate. That's a lot of freelancing." Baylor talked of having a game plan, of inflating pitch counts. But will he be able to reduce the number of strikeouts at the same time?
Comments
This off season
is going to be so different. Looks like no one wants to spend the big money for free agents, or to trade for big contracts, or to get the short end of a deal on a trade for prospects.
There is no way Dye and his $11 million dollar contract become Rockies
Thought Clint Hurdle should be fired before it was cool.
by Redhawk on
Nov 25, 2008 8:41 AM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
Dye
If Williams wants “a starter and other players” and that starter can be Willy Taveras and those other players can be a low-minors pitcher (or perhaps just credit for claiming Jayson Nix), then why not? There’s plenty of backup in the OF if he goes down; if it’s a White Sox salary-dump/roster-space opener, the Rockies can afford $11.5M and a $1M buyout (if he stays healthy, $12M might actually be reasonable), and it gives Fowler or Gonzales plenty of time to learn in AAA.
But if it costs any real prospects… no thanks.
by deacs on
Nov 25, 2008 9:23 AM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
"starter" always means of the pitching variety
Williams certainly wouldn’t be asking for one of higher quality than what the Rox got for Holliday, so it seems to me it would actually look like a Taveras plus one of Hirsh/Reynolds/Smith for Dye and his salary deal that he’d have to accept if he wants a trade with the Rockies or similar value from any other club for that matter. At that cost, of players that really are only marginal, it might actually be worth it. I think GM’s are overvaluing some young pitching by clumping them all into one general category without a proper distinction of the tiers of talent involved. If you look at Dys as a starting OF, there isn’t much of an upgrade from what we already have. The projections I’ve seen for him have an OPS between .825 and .863, whereas Ryan Spilborghs is between .814 and .853. Give Dye a little boost for moving to Coors and the NL, but his OPS is SLG heavy compared to Ryan’s more valuable OBP driven numbers, and as Russ mentions there’s considerably more injury lost playing time risk, so they are pretty much a wash for what value they’d bring to the team as starting OF’s in 2009. That said, regardless of who ends up starting, Dye does give us back a depth/bench advantage that was weakened with the Matt Holliday trade, but $11.5 million and two players for that seems like a luxury that the Rockies are highly unlikely to pursue.
by Rox Girl on
Nov 25, 2008 10:22 AM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
No real need for Dye
I would imagine that in any trade for Dye that his 2010 option would have to become guaranteed and I would stay away from that. Spilly needs to be in the line up everyday, and he cannot cover enough ground to play center on an everday basis especially if Hawpe and Dye were on each side of him. Nice bat, but he needs to stay in the AL where he can dh some, and I think a deep stable of pitching possibilities next year is a must for the Rocks. As they say, you can never have too many arms.
by brainteaser on
Nov 25, 2008 10:34 AM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Shouse
I would love to see Shouse with the Rockies. His brother is a friend of mine. Shouse bounced around the minors for year and years, and even did a stint in Japan. Then a pitching coach had him drop his release point waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down, and it was basically like a switch being flipped – he became much more effective.
by kosmo99 on
Nov 25, 2008 8:42 AM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
No way we get rid of Matt H. and then trade for Dye
He’s a right fielder. Seems we’ve got a pretty good one there. If we’re looking for an outfielder, center is the place to concentrate on.
by pedalpusher on
Nov 25, 2008 10:57 AM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
I love what I'm hearing
from Baylor at this point. We will see if he is able to coach this in away that actually takes hold, but that has been an issue of mine w/ the Rox philosophy for awhile. I have been hoping for a more patient approach from this team for several years. Look at the Cubs’ offense, it way overachieved, IMO. Most of that was because of OBP and being patient at the plate.
by smokinRox on
Nov 25, 2008 11:28 AM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
I'm fine with Dye.....
ESPECIALLY if we trade Taveras and non-mpact bodies to get him. We are only tied up contractually for a year or two, and he would give us “Hollidayesque” production even at age 35. Someone mentioned he’s a rightfielder, but obviously he can play left.
We need the righthanded power that we have lost with the Holliday trade, and may still lose by trading away Atkins. I am surprised I’m in the minority here, with about 72% saying NO to Dye in the poll.
by GoRoxGo on
Nov 25, 2008 11:31 AM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
I'm actually surprised by how many "no" votes there are.
I mean, I understand fiscally why the FO would turn a deal for him down, but from a fan’s standpoint, there’s not much downside here.
by Rox Girl on
Nov 25, 2008 12:11 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
What about defensively?
He is below average in RF, and not getting any younger
Second half run?
by moomacher on
Nov 25, 2008 12:37 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Below average, but considerably better than what we have in right
And he projects as well as putting Jeff Baker out there. He’s worse than Spilly, though, which is another reason to think of it as a lateral move as far as our starting outfielders are concerned, but it’s an overall talent upgrade still and I don’t know why so many fans would be against that.
One aspect of this potential (and I still say highly unlikely) move which I’m sure would be even less popular with Rockies fans would be that it would give the team greater flexibility to trade Hawpe, should the right deal come along. Brad would command a much better return package than Dye,we could probably expect at least one premium player, and given the slight upgrade in right field defense from Jermaine and a similar downgrade in his bat, the Rockies would probably come out even to 2009’s projected performance and far ahead for future seasons should we decide to go that route.
by Rox Girl on
Nov 25, 2008 1:18 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Bradley
What sort of return do you think we could get out of Hawpe? I understand he’s still a 120-130 OPS+ guy that’s controlled for 2 years, but his defense was atrocious last year.
by Hizilla on
Nov 25, 2008 3:03 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
He's a lefthanded power bat
with good plate discipline, and that cost control through 2010 is a big deal in this environment. I’d expect a return around, maybe just under, what the Pirates got for Jason Bay (Hawpe’s a slightly lesser player but his left-handedness carries some of a premium)
and hopefully the Rockies would do a better job of identifying prospects beyond their hype than Pittsburgh did.
by Rox Girl on
Nov 25, 2008 3:22 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Have you seen Brad's arm?
Dye is working his way toward a DH role. I’d much rather keep Hawper. We have sufficient depth in the OF, to the point that we need to focus on filling out our p staff.
by jefe_13 on
Nov 25, 2008 9:50 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Defense is not just the arm.
"Never Surrender Dreams" - Inscription on J. Michael Straczynski's bench
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
by Russ on
Nov 25, 2008 10:24 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
True.
Comparing him to Dye, Hawpe is a career .976 FCT vs Dye’s .982 mark. However, Hawpe has half as many Assists in only a third as many innings. I would expect Hawpe to bounce back from last year’s poor showing, where as Dye is much more likely to make the “safe” play as he gets older.
Dye maybe a 30+ HR, 90 RBI guy, but Hawpe is a 25+ HR, 90 RBI guy with a better OBP.
I’m not entirely saying Dye would be a bad addition though. Postseason experience is always a plus. I would just rather the Rox pursue pitching.
by jefe_13 on
Nov 25, 2008 11:11 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Dye would be an okay addition, but...
Selling Dye to the fans as a reason to keep buying in the post-Holliday era is silly (mostly because most Rocktober bandwagoneers could care less who Jermaine Dye is), and while we would be thrilled to see the Monfort’s plug Holliday’s 2009 salary back into the club, a 1-year rental of a declining player at a position of non-weakness for the club is not nearly the optimal play.
I don’t see why we can’t take Holliday’s $13.5m and use it towards a market offer for Fuentes, even if that’s overpaying a closer generally. He’s not going to get Rivera money, and if we can offer something like J.J. Putz money, maybe he’d actually stay.
Then, we’ve got Corpas/Street (if we keep him) for high leverage 7th inning issues, the Lemur for the 8th, and the bullpen becomes a strength again.
Either that, or throw the money at Orlando Hudson…
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
by Mondogarage on
Nov 26, 2008 7:50 AM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Maybe the White Sox fans.....
are coming onto this site and “freeping” this poll. I can’t see why this move would be so unpopular among Rox fans.
by GoRoxGo on
Nov 25, 2008 1:06 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
you can have him, his stats are dropping and he's popping up everywhere.
I hate dumbass people who don't know shit but think they know me. I say FUCK everybody who doesn't like what I say, You Can Kiss My Mixed ASS- Kalinda
by pierzynskirules on
Nov 25, 2008 5:28 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I would MUCH rather spend...
… $11mil on Orlando Hudson for 4 yrs. I do not understand why the FO would not look at that signing. I do not buy that EY2 or Nelson are that close to MLB everyday players at this point. Besides, let them “knock down the door” as O’Dowd said Stewart had to do. Hudson would give us a top of the order bat and a gold glove caliber 2nd baseman. And, I do not buy the “we’re just a small market team”. Granted, we are not a large market team, but I think we could make a legit argument for being in that middle tier team, that doesn’t have to soley exist as a talent feeder to Boston, NY and LA,
by Fos on
Nov 25, 2008 2:25 PM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
I could see that argument
If the choice is Dye or another player not currently with the team, there are any number that I’d rather have, including Hudson, and you’re right that for 2009, that would be a better allocation of $11 million (the three or four years after that? probably not so much) and I suppose that’s where a majority of the nay votes are coming from. I was looking at the poll more from a Dye or no Dye view, which given who we currently have, I don’t see how it would hurt that much.
by Rox Girl on
Nov 25, 2008 2:33 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Starting pitcher
If it takes a significant starting pitching prospect to get it done then I say no. But if it was Smith then it would be worth looking into.
by MADness on
Nov 25, 2008 3:19 PM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
Kenny Williams wants that significant guy
But if the Rockies couldn’t pry one away with Matt Holliday, there’s no way one’s going to Chicago for Dye. There are too many Jermaine rumors (Mets, Reds, Rockies) out today anyway, it seems like a whole lot of fishing by Chicago for a deal that’s not really there .
by Rox Girl on
Nov 25, 2008 3:31 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Dye, Alexei Ramirez, pitching prospect
for Morales, Huston Street and Willy T. Do it?
by deacs on
Nov 25, 2008 4:19 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
No. That's a hard sell
Probably for both teams, as I imagine White Sox fans would be less than thrilled by that return. Ramirez clearly has some significant power, and he’d be either some decent insurance for CarGon/Fowler not panning out or a slight upgrade at second over Baker. He’d be really cheap, but at the same time, there’s no further projection there and he has very little plate discipline, which isn’t likely to get better as he ages. Dye is productive but sort of old and fragile. We’d be losing a two win reliever in Street, the best baserunner in the majors in Taveras, and be selling low on Morales. We’d be going the wrong way on the peak/age scale, giving up youth for age and experience, but I don’t believe it’s enough experience or enough of an upgrade on our chances of winning in 2009 to justify that cost, because if Morales pans out, that’s a doozy of a loser for us.
From the perspective of a White Sox fan, I’d see it as giving up two decent OF’s and a pitching prospect for an inferior OBP and power challenged outfielder, a prematurely declining reliever and a control lacking LHP prospect who may be a bust.
I think Morales is the type of pitcher the Rockies should stick with until they’re a bit more certain he’s not going to be what he’s capable of, even if it means holding him until he’s lost his trade value. I think that’s just too much of an upside to give up so easily.
by Rox Girl on
Nov 25, 2008 5:00 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Is there
a second baseman worth trading for, given all the considerations that go with the Rockies roster and payroll? Morales for Cano? He’s only 26. Fits for the Yankees, and pretty much assured O-Hudson would be out of the NL West. What about cash for the right to arbitrate with Aaron Miles?
Do you still consider Eckstein a worthwhile free agent?
by deacs on
Nov 25, 2008 6:58 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
One player I've been thinking about more
That would fit with the Rockies budget and still potentially fill a need at second is Alex Cora. He projects to be a neutral defender there, bats left-handed and had a .266/.378/.363 line against RHP’s last season. You combine that with Barmes’ .303/.333/.614 line against LHP’s and you have a pretty potent platoon. This would allow Jeff Baker to be used strictly as a super-sub and strengthen the offensive capabilities of our bench without sacrificing the defense at second like you were arguing for the other day.
The problem with Cora is that he’s had some pretty divergent results in the past, so you can’t be really certain that’s what you’ll actually be getting, but he’s probably a safer bet than Eric Young for 2009 and that patience he showed last season was pretty impressive. Boston has served him well, I think. We’d have to lose Quintanilla, but it would probably be worth it for the overall upgrade that split would provide at second. He’d be half as cheap as Eckstein and may even be had for less than the $2 million he made last season, and Cora/Barmes would probably be more productive at the position anyway, so I guess I’ve moved off of that previous thought somewhat.
by Rox Girl on
Nov 25, 2008 8:41 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Perplexed
I don’t understand how a franchise can be in its 16th year of existence and had only one long term second baseman, Eric Young the First. The only other person who’s started at least 79 games in consecutive seasons at second for the Rockies is Aaron Miles, whom they didn’t want to pay in arbitration and traded for Ray King. (Technically, Mike Lansing was a long-term second baseman, but missed most of his second year and was gone in his third). The team has never spent a first or second round draft pick on a second baseman (maybe this is due to draft position year-to-year, but still, it’s been 16 years).
For whatever reason, aside from Young, this has been a position management has deemed unworthy for investment. As Kaz Matsui proved last year, having a capable offensive/defensive second baseman can make a huge difference. Unfortunately, none have been developed for the Rockies and there’s been no effort to make a long term committment to an established free agent or attempt to pick someone up in a trade.
by deacs on
Nov 25, 2008 10:22 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Meh...
Dye’s a terrible defensive OF, they won’t trade Alexei, and the only pitching prospect the Sox have right now is Poreda, and they aren’t really sure if he’ll be a starter or reliever (sound familiar). I’m not a fan of Dye, even though I could see us getting him for a year only to turn him into a draft pick the following, but I don’t feel like that’d improve us for this year. Not enough is being said about the Cuban connection the Sox currently have going (Contreras, Alexei, Viciedo), so I don’t see them moving Alexei either. The word is they didn’t have the best offer for Viciedo, but they were able to land him anyway thanks to Alexei and the Count being on the roster.
On our end, moving Willy T would be nice but not 100% necessary. There are some Sox’s fans who want him, but just as many against it. The one’s who look at OBP and such are against it, the ones who look at speed say ‘ooh pretty.’ I’d like to see Street hang around for a little while just to see what we have there, then decide whether we move him or keep him. As far as Frankie goes, I don’t really want to give him up unless we are getting an ace in return, which won’t happen. Was only a year ago that people were talking about his stuff being that level, and I’d hate for us to write him off after one bad year.
You know you want to check out Matt's Korea blog: http://koreamatt.wordpress.com
by MattTheRock on
Nov 25, 2008 8:49 PM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I don't really get...
The ‘09 Rox going for Dye. He seems like the sort of guy you trade for in July when you think you’re one guy away from the playoffs, not the sort of guy you reach for in November. He’s good, or he was, and he may have one or two left in him but I’m not sure the Rockies are the team that would be the ones looking for him right now. The cost could be way higher than Willy plus a throw in, too.
by Since1993 on
Nov 25, 2008 9:34 PM MST
reply
actions
0 recs
they wouldn't
Like I sad a few posts above, this is just ChiSox fishing expedition, throwing a lot of rumors up against the wall to see what sticks. But having said that. If the choice is having Dye or Taveras, I think I choose Dye at this point.
by Rox Girl on
Nov 26, 2008 5:27 AM MST
up
reply
actions
0 recs














