Holliday to the Cards?
Tracy Ringolsby wrote an article in the Rocky Mountain News about the Cardnials seriously chasing after Matt Holliday. He notes that Ryan Ludwick could be part of a package deal with the possiblity of some young prospects. Do you guys think there is any suitable trade that could happen between the Cards and the Roxs? Personally I just don't feel like the Cardnials have any suitable arms to throw in to make it worth it.
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There are suitable deals for Holliday involving the Cardinals, but I’m not sure I want to take Ludwick, although taking him may be a given for any deal for Holliday. The Cards don’t have any top-of-the-line pitching prospects, but they do have some depth in guys who profile more as #2/#3 starter types; several of those might at least make dealing Holliday palatable to us.
Interesting
Ludwick most certainly had a career year last season, and there’s very little chance that he comes close to that kind of season again. However, he is good for being a right handed Brad Hawpe for a few more years, so the step down from Matt in our lineup wouldn’t be nearly as severe as it is with other deals we’ve been talking about and the Rockies would still wind up with a solid ballplayer. I’m curious why the Cardinals would do this, though. Holliday’s a better hitter, but if they are willing to give up Ludwick and prospects to get him, they’d have to be pretty confident that they could sign him to an extension, I would think.
A Cardinals deal starts with Rasmus. Period.
Taking Ludwick is a foolish gesture at trying not to upset the apple cart. As rox girl notes, Ludwick had a career year likely not to be repeated again. While he has three years of arb left, they will be for ages 30, 31, and 32. Considering Ludwick’s late arrival and old player skill set, you’re likely getting the expensive years of his eventual decline. Ludwick will hit with power if he comes over, but his defense was already sliding and now he would have to cover a much larger outfield. An outfield of Ludwick-Spilborghs-Hawpe would be less than ideal for a pitching staff not made of five Aaron Cook’s.
Sure, Rasmus hits left handed, as many Rockies do…BUT, he’s going to play most of next season as a 22 year old, he was voted the top prospect in the PCL despite a lost season, is consider a plus defender in either center or a corner, and has a more dynamic offensive profile. Just one year ago, Rasmus dominated the TL, coming a homer shy of 30 in a minor league season, and was on everyone’s wish list. A knee injury and some frustrations may have tanked his AAA season, but he was beginning to find it before being shelved for the season. The core of the team offensively appears to be Tulo, Iannetta, Stew, and Fowler. Would it not make sense to add another one in that age and arb level? If they all pan out you have an offensive jauggernaut for several years.
Ludwick would be okay if the secondary parts were great. That would mean Chris Perez, and possibly another starting pitcher prospect. I don’t think you can get Chris Perez or even Jaime Garcia if you ask for Rasmus as well, but the Cardinals still have a surprisingly deep pool of 2-3 type pitchers. Jess Todd is a bulldog of a pitcher that could become a better late inning arm. Clayton Mortensen took his lumps in AAA, but he’s still throwing a power sinker to get groundouts. Plus, the Cardinals do have interesting C grade guys to round out a trade.
I believe a deal can get done with the Cardinals, but if Ludwick is the main course I hope the side dishes are to die for.
Now the Phillies… there’s an interesting trade partner. Not coming in a Holliday trade will be Shane Victorino, and honestly, that’s just fine. Victorino won a gold glove despite being the third best centerfielder in his own division, according to plus/minus. He may be an upgrade to Taveras, but Coors’ dimensions seems to surpress plus/minus totals in the outfield, and Victorino would be coming from the smallest to the largest outfield, skewing expectations. Offensively, he’s okay, but if people want to talk about Holliday’s home/road splits, Victorino isn’t exactly a force outside his band box.
What the Phillies do have are near ready prospects in needed positions. Carlos Carrasco has to be an enticing arm, in that his stuff is lively, it can be molded to a groundball oriented approach, and he has the upside of a durable number 2-3, with an outside shot at becoming a 1. Carrasco competes for the fifth spot in the rotation from day one and stand to make a nice longterm impact on the pitching staff.
After Carrasco, the Rockies should be able to request Jason Donald. Donald is a middle infielder that’s likely to find a permanent home at second, but should be playing in the bigs quickly. Donald seems to carry the same mentality to the game as the other young Rockies, and has a well rounded offensive profile. Donald reminds me of Kinsler minus a little pop, and could be a pleasant surprise. Obviously, he’s blocked in Philly, so I think the Rockies could request Donald as well.
Happ is the other mentioned name, but at this point in his career, he’s teetering on “throw-in” status. As a tall, soft throwing lefty, there’s a chance for a back end role, but at 26, he may need to stick in the pen or become unwanted roster clutter. I’d like to see a relief talent with the possible third player in a Philly deal.
As to the last rumor of the evening, I like the idea of pursuing Cuddyer in conjunction with an Atkins trade. My fear here is that the Rockies would be lucky to get Blackburn or Slowey straight up for Atkins, let alone with Cuddyer. Perhaps Kevin Mulvey/Cuddyer? I suppose there are still better deals.
Jason Donald
The reports on Carrasco vary so wildly that I am hesitant to offer an opinion on that part (if the Rockies scouts like him though then he is definitely a quality pitching prospect to go after).
Jason Donald, on the other hand, seems like a very good solution at 2nd. He has the defensive skills, the right personality to fit right in on this club and he brings offensive value to a middle infield position. He is one of the few guys being mentioned in trades that seems to be realistically available AND to be a great fit for the Rockies.
He's why I like the Phillies best so far
as a rumored contender for Holliday
I don't see any way to get Rasmus
But the Cardinals do have quite a few prospects that I like and with Mulder off the books this year, Izzy as well and Glaus’ more than 10 mil next yr I think the Cards would sign him long term. Imagine a Holliday-Pujols lineup.
I am intrigued by the arms in the Cards system, I’m not in love with any of these deals so far though
I am a huge cards fan btw and Ludwick has another 3 yrs of cost controlled baseball
And if he stays healthy like this yr which is a big if i think we have a 34-45 HR player in Ludwick. I don’t think it was a fluke this yr and this guy has some serious pop which would be great at Coors.
But we should still ask for 1-2 significant pitchers I believe back.
Also a side note the majority of the guys on the cardinals blog don’t want the cards to do Ludwick-Holliday straight up right now they have such faith in ludwick.
Most of them are nuts with the Holliday won’t do anything outside of coors which i dont’ buy at all, but I would love Ludwick-Stewart-Atkins-Hawpe being part of this lineup and gain some nice specs for years to come
not to be rude
but as a Cards fan why would we trade a 5 tool OF that is cost controlled for several years and is a top 5 prospect for a one year rental of Holliday?
Especially considering he can walk after the year and is looking for crazy money?
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Nov 8, 2008 12:38 PM MST up reply actions
Thats why the Cards do not make a good
trade partner for Holliday. I know LaRussa wants a big bat and Holliday would give Pujols some protection, but they have a lot of OFers, and the ones they are willing to give us don’t match up IMO. Maybe this is a case of 2 teams overvaluing their own players, as has been said before, but there is no way Ludwick is worth Holliday and I can’t believe that is even being talked about. Cards fans wouldn’t even do that deal straight up, which is completely insane to me. I think we really need to work out a good deal w/ the Phils or Reds, if not let’s keep Holliday and take our 2 picks.
I hope we don’t trade Holliday just to prove a point, or to make a deal. I am in agreement about Atkins though, we should deal him if we get something reasonable.
we would certainly do the deal straight up talent wise
but not money wise fwiw.
I kow we have a semi large payroll but this team has many holes to fill and they are always reluctant to spend money.
so its a (no offense) worst case marginal improvement in the OF but its going to take away most of our payroll flexibility and some trading chips.
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
by jealousblues on Nov 9, 2008 12:57 AM MST up reply actions
two more things
Garcia just had TJ surgery, so you might shy away from coveting him
and you might find this amusing
http://www.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=585278
www.GriffinandtheGargoyles.com or www.myspace.com/GriffinandtheGargoyles
Dont take me seriously :-D
Hasn't Holliday gone to the A's?
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