Sunday Rockpile: Looking for the forest
I've just been trying to figure out where O'Dowd wants to be headed with the Matt Holliday to St. Louis trade. I'm trying not to look at the individual trees and see more of the complete picture. Your 2009 Rockies lineup after a Holliday to the Cardinals trade as it's currently rumored:
- Ryan Spilborghs or Skip Schumaker CF
- Troy Tulowitzki SS
- Ian Stewart 3B
- Ryan Ludwick LF
- Brad Hawpe RF
- Chris Iannetta C
- Todd Helton 1B
- Jeff Baker or Clint Barmes 2B
When Yorvit subs for Iannetta, you drop him to the eighth slot. Helton and Stewart could be interchangeable depending on who has the better bat next season, and the same could be said for the middle infielders. This does not make the Rockies any better of a team in 2009 than if they kept Matt Holliday and just traded away Atkins and Taveras but it doesn't make them worse and it makes them a little less reliant on a single individual to carry the team. This is a high OBP, decent powered lineup, but defensively deficient. Let's skip ahead to 2010:
- Dexter Fowler CF
- Tulowitzki SS
- Stewart 3B
- Iannetta C
- Hawpe RF
- Ludwick or Spilborghs LF
- Helton 1B
- ??? 2B
The Rockies hopefully will be in position to trade the lesser of Spilly, Hawpe or Ludwick a year from now because of Fowler. The defensive hit we take in 2009 has a reversal. I dropped the left fielders in the lineup because they aren't getting any younger, but if they're better hitters than Iannetta at that point, the status quo works fine. Schumaker would be kept as the reserve for his better defensive versatility. Again, trading Holliday doesn't necessarily make this lineup any better than not trading him, but because they'll be able to split the risk of regression between two players rather than just one and the potential of a secondary trade return, there's a better chance that the team is better. Second base remains somewhat of a mystery. It could be Baker/Barmes again, it could be EY2, it could be Chris Nelson, or various other scenarios, don't get scared by the question marks; just because there's no clear succession in place doesn't mean we're in bad shape at that position.
So my main point is that a trade with St. Louis isn't going to be made to add value to the team, it's going to be made to try and eliminate risk and to cut payroll. The problem is that Ludwick is an inherently risky venture, so much so that this is why the Cardinals would be willing to trade him in the first place. The irony for the Rockies is that they are adding risk to the system in a trade that looks like it's designed to do the opposite.
The wildcard in this would be the cost savings, the other key part of the design of this trade. Does the team use the windfall for an upgrade elsewhere or do the Monforts pocket it? For the sake of argument let's say we turn the $10 million around and sign some free agent pitcher like Juan Cruz. It's just a name I'm tossing out there, pick your own sub $10 million FA if you don't like it. In that event the trade breaks down to the Rockies giving up Holliday and three draft picks, two 2010 picks (one supplemental, one either a first or second round pick) and a 2009 second round pick for Ludwick, Schumaker, Boggs and Cruz. In my scenario, while the principal parts to the Holliday trade are a wash or less, a secondary part like Cruz does help the team by replacing the kind of high leverage reliever we lose with Fuentes. Keeping Holliday would mean that the team would have to hope to add that reliever with an Atkins or Taveras trade, tying O'Dowd's hands further.
Alright, now let's layer those proposed moves in and see where O'Dowd's going with this. The rumors this week were Atkins for an outfielder and a starter. Why would we need another outfielder if we're already trading for one with Holliday? Well if it's as risky a bet as Ludwick, it's clear that Cuddyer or a similar outfielder would be an insurance policy. A deal of Taveras looks to be adding a little more stability to the bullpen. The 2009 team at that point would be deep and cheap. Not spectacular, but not out of the running in the NL West. 2010 would depend on how Fowler, Stewart and our young pitchers progress.
This trade is not a doomsday scenario, it's not a fire sale. It's just not a clear gain without additional movement, that's the only way it will really work, but there's reason to think the Rockies will be in a decent position to make those moves. While this Holliday trade isn't bringing back a hitter as good as he is, it is bringing back two that are better than Atkins and Taveras, so the overall talent level of the team could still be going up. In the end if I have to, I'll live with this trade, but I just think there must be something better out there.
Here's a link to Woody Paige for some knee-jerkiness and Monfort/O'Dowd criticism.
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Breaking up is so hard to do... even for the rich people.
Poor Matty feels like he needs to lash out. He wants his $140 million and his seven years of security and he “despises” the Monforts for not giving it to him.
Awwww… poor little rich boy. I can see his lower lip sticking out right now.. pouting.
Holliday sent this whole thing headed straight for disaster when he dumped a family friend for Scott Boras. If he didn’t know this ending was inevitable, he wasn’t thinking very hard. And you damn well know he and Atkins have made a vow together to make life hell for the Rockies.
The clubhouse sees this. O’Dowd sees this… and he will get both of them out of here as quickly as possible.
Listen, the Monforts are the owners and that is not going to change. Other small/mid market teams trade their stars away and it doesn’t always end this way. The reality is that there are only a handful of teams that can shell out that kind of cash. So Holliday should shut his mouth and ride off into the sunset with his millions and a gracious smile… not a pathetic pout.
by roxhead on
Nov 9, 2008 11:47 AM MST
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Boras
does ruin his clients and makes signing them cost-prohibitive for small and medium market teams, I agree. He sets up high expectations just by bringing people on as clients that cause problems for most clubs. It’s inevitable that all of his clients are treated with suspicion because of his negotiating style. But don’t blame Holliday for the cult of personality that Boras involuntarily created for all of his clients. The problem is that there are owners and management that are always willing to go for the $20M+ pitch, even if the player is worth that (Holliday is, but not for 8 or 10 years).
Don’t forget that Holliday transformed himself from a dundering third baseman with a good bat into a solid major league LF with a great bat. As much as any elite player deserves the contract they get, Holliday deserves a chance to earn a market-value salary, which is above what the Rockies can afford to pay. Even if they could afford to pay, they aren’t the kind of team that can spend that amount of money on a player for the length that Holliday wants and can get. It’s just a fact of life that Rockies fans shouldn’t begrudge him. Do they get to the World Series without him last year? No way.
So, pray that they don’t end up trading him for Ludwick and Shumaker, but be happy if there is a good return for a Holliday trade this winter. It could set the team up well in 2009, and will almost certainly put them in a better position, both talent-wise and financially, down the road.
But seriously, no Ludwick. A Holliday-Ludwick, Shumaker, prospect trade would be akin to the Marlins trading Sheffield (with Bobby Bonilla and Charles Johnson) in 1998, and ending up with Preston Wilson in return (and eventually just Juan Pierre). Please find a way to get Crawford and a pitching prospect, providing the Rockies with a good leadoff hitter and a solid LF.
by deacs on
Nov 9, 2008 12:34 PM MST
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Woody Paige
is probably one of the worst sports writers alive, but this was an article that actually made some sense. I am usually on the side of sticking up for the Rockies and the plan of building from within, and I still am, but I don’t like the way some of these players have been treated on the way out. If the Rox want to trade Holliday and Atkins, then they should, but they don’t have to bad mouth these guys on the way out. I don’t like the comment about Holliday’s contract being a distraction to the team, and blaming it on that. Be classy and be appreciative for all the they did for the organization and then trade them for needs if thats what they choose, but don’t be immature about him not signing a contract below market value to stay.
I am angry about Holliday’s choice of Boras, and I definitely think that has changed his mind set about things, but the Rox should not treat him poorly over it. I think comments lately from the FO and ownership have made many of the guys angry and that is not good for the clubhouse. I don’t think there is any chance Atkins could play w/ this team any more, and I am starting to wonder how happy Hawpe is as well.
However, I still say that Paige is crazy, and his trade ideas would never have happened. He doesn’t even think logically when he says that stuff, why would these teams that are trying to cut costs and get prospects back trade for Holliday, and if we can’t sign Holliday, how are we going to sign Sabathia? I don’t think he understands the intricacies of baseball and payroll and building a team using a mid-market strategy, but he did hit the nail on the head when it comes to their treatment of these players.
by smokinRox on
Nov 9, 2008 5:17 PM MST
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Where's the speed
I see an evolution to a more speed approach coming into vogue over the next few years. This Rockies lineup has no speed whatsoever.
by PinchHitLancePainter on
Nov 9, 2008 12:06 PM MST
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2009's lineup is definitely plodding.
2010 could have Fowler and EY2, which would be significantly faster without sacrificing a whole lot of power and nearly equal in OBP if all goes well.
by Rox Girl on
Nov 9, 2008 12:10 PM MST
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The Paige Article
hits the nail on the head with respect to the Bros Monfort. The whole GenR thing was a joke. Let’s go with the kids and then we’ll follow the Indians model. That was poppycock. The kids went from horrible to mediocre to one month wonders and then back to medicore and now back to GenR II. The field talent as well as pitching for next year is not inspiring by any means. I am sure the turnstiles at Coors will be bustling with The Who concert fever over this squad.
The Rockies are teetering on a precarious line here. The credibility of the owners is basically gone. Hurdle/O’Dowd are on notice and the whole plan appears to be scrapped. I sense a return to the 2000-2005 editions on a the horizon. Let’s ditch everyone for cheaper guys and old guys on their last mile.
The Rocks fans deserve better for the support they have given a team with only 2 or 3 winning records in sixteen years.
by PinchHitLancePainter on
Nov 9, 2008 1:12 PM MST
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I hope the trade with the Cardinals doesn't come to fruition
As many of you have stated, Skip Schumaker is a fine player but he’s not too far away from what the Rox have in terms of OF replacements (Spilborghs, Seth Smith). Here’s a link to his numbers http://thebaseballcube.com/players/S/Skip-Schumaker.shtml
Not bad but whatever.
As for Ryan Ludwick, not to say he can’t be good, but I don’t think the numbers this year were representative of his true talent. I think the Cardinals want to unload him right after he just had an amazing year out of nowhere and I don’t blame them. Here’s a good article examining Ludwick’s past season and the underlying stats that show he’s a prime candidate for regression.
I’ve said this many time’s but if I’m DOD I’m shooting for a serious bat (if only the Cardinals would give up Brett Wallace) and a solid solid pitching prospect.
by Resolution on
Nov 9, 2008 2:45 PM MST
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My dead horse
I still maintain that any Holliday deal that does not bring back a (potential) front-of-rotation starter is a failure. Even the Crawford/Jackson rumor provides some hope for the pitching staff. But trading Holliday for worse offensive players is just foolish, this team is not going to return to threat status without better pitching than we currently project to have. Ugh. Again, I’d rather take the year of Holliday and the picks than try to stomach listening to the FO tell me that Ludwick is going to make us a threat.
I saw an ESPN bottom-line ticker yesterday that seemed to suggest that the Holliday/Ludwick deal was actually done, and I about walked out into oncoming traffic. This whole situation is like knowing you are going to get punched in the stomach, there’s nothing to do that can stop it, and just waiting…
by Teekalong on
Nov 9, 2008 5:35 PM MST
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Cardinals talks stalled for now
This article says the talks with the Cards are done for now. Apparently the Cardinals thought a package of Ludwick, Schumaker, and Mitchell Boggs was too much for Holliday. Maybe they just felt bad for Dan O’Dowd and ended the talks before he made a crap trade…
by Resolution on
Nov 10, 2008 7:58 AM MST
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