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Thursday Rockpile: Baseball Analysts NL West SWOT; plus, are FA's the new inefficiency?

Patrick Sullivan did a SWOT analysis of the NL West the other day, but in many respects he's continuing with the old memo. Under weaknesses for Arizona he writes:

A lineup that was supposed to all rise up as one and become Major League standouts in 2008 decided to put it off a year. Stephen DrewChris YoungConor Jackson and Justin Upton - potential superstars all - did not hit the way the D-Backs needed them to in 2008 in order for them to repeat as division champs. Until a couple of them step up and show they can anchor a championship caliber offense, the offense will remain a weak spot.

With the exception of Young (who if it wasn't for a certain team in Denver would have batted .233/.292/.374) Arizona's weakness on offense in 2008 had little to do with the players mentioned, and a lot more to do with the supporting cast. On most, non-Rockies playing days, the Snakes have four good parts to their lineup -Drew, Jackson, Upton and Snyder- and four not so good parts. What's more, as I was mentioning a couple of weeks ago, the days of potential superstardom for any of these four except for Upton have pretty much passed by. Drew could still be a star (sans super) or a standout if things continue to go well for him in 2009, Jackson and Young (the latter once his defense is taken into account) are decent contender worthy starters, but the days of projecting the Snakes with a championship caliber offense are gone.

Sullivan's points about the Rockies are accurate (notably our weakness on D) with the exception of this one:

ThreatsCarlos Gonzalez replacing Matt Holliday could kill this offense, and I am afraid that Todd Helton will not be posting another 144 OPS+ season.

Helton's not going to post another 144 OPS+ season, that part is true, but does not necessarily imply a threat. The Rockies should not need that much offense from first this season. The real threat would be that Helton posts another 100 OPS+ season in just 83 games as he did in 2008, which is indeed a danger. The real inaccuracy, however, is one that you may see more of from pundits unfamiliar with the team's intentions. The error springs from the fact that the Rockies starting left fielder Holliday was traded to Oakland in a package that included the A's outfielder Gonzalez, so therefore it's assumed that the Rockies intent is to fill Holliday's slot with CarGon.  

Of course, the Rockies haven't quite settled on who will be in left so I guess technically that the slight slight chance that they wind up choosing Gonzalez remains a threat. The best dreamworld scenario for Rockies fans is that Dexter Fowler shows up as an undeniable force in Spring and wins the center field position outright, pushing Spilborghs to left, Stewart to third and the front office to trade Garrett Atkins. The more likely scenario is that Spilborghs starts in center and either Ian Stewart or Seth Smith in left, but neither option is the offense killer that Gonzalez is projected to be.

Give Sullivan credit though, at least he actually looked at the Rockies and identified most of the major issues rather than just labeling the team "an afterthought" in a cheap and lazy way to fill up column space and collect a paycheck.

Even as they signed Rafael Furcal, the Dodgers did little to dispel my belief that the team has some money issues that need to be resolved and that they are ultimately going to come up short when it comes to recreating last season's division winner. Furcal's three year $30 million deal is backloaded to the point that a full fifty percent of its value is in the 2011 season, with just $6.5 million due in 2008. Furcal really wanted to play for LA, so he was willing be flexible in that way to work things out, but to expect other free agents -particularly Manny Ramirez and agent Scott Boras- to be similarly generous might be asking for a bit much. 

Charlie at Bucs Dugout has some interesting thoughts and a spirited, intelligent conversation going in the comments in response to a Dejan Kovacevic Q & A. Specifically the Q whether the Pirates should be following Billy Beane's lead this winter and trading prospects and stocking up on free agents because they'll never be cheaper, or hording prospects to build for the future. It's brought up because Beane traded for Holliday and the assumption becomes that Beane's playing smart while the Pirates in trading away Jason Bay (and by unwritten implication the Rockies) are not in sticking with the build your own success model. 

My own thoughts on the matter say that it depends on a bunch of factors; such as where along the success cycle your team is, what the current status of the farm is, how valuable your current personnel are and how far away they are from FA, who your competition is, etc.., that will make as many different answers to this question as there are teams in the league. I can say that several teams have not answered this question correctly. The Pirates do not have the surplus of talent that the A's do to pull off a trade like that. The Rockies really don't either, right now. If you click on the link to John Sickels' list of our prospects a couple of posts down, you'll see that while there's talent in the system, it's largely unproven and therefore less valuable outside of two players. I hope and expect by next winter this will change, but in the meantime, Rockies and Pirates fans have to understand that they don't have the goods in the minor leagues at the moment.

Neil Huntington (who came from the same John Hart/Cleveland GM lineage as Dan O'Dowd,) has decided that the Pirates are too far from being competitive with the Cubs and Brewers with their current core, which despite coming into their primes are close to the bottom of that division, and that the team lacks enough minor league depth to challenge that status quo. So the important parts of Huntington's talent acquisition seem to be trying to augment a second core group around Andrew McCutchen, Pedro Alvarez, Neil Walker and Jose Tabata that should start to peak about five seasons from now. That's why I think Bryan Morris may have been the most important component of the Jason Bay trade for the Pirates, even if everybody was focusing on the MLB parts Craig Hanson and Andy LaRoche. This is what similar to what O'Dowd did with the Rockies in 2003/2004. Likewise, when the Rockies traded Holliday for Gonzalez, et al, they weren't trading for 2009 and extending the success of the 2007 core (which was the primary goal of the rumored St Louis trade) but instead trading for an important piece (two if you count Greg Smith) to augment a second core that's forming around Tulo, Jimenez and Ian Stewart. Beane's plan in trading for Holliday, on the other hand, seems to be using a surplus to give one last chance to Eric Chavez, Jack Cust, Justin Duscherer and that group to compete before handing the reins over to Oakland's next generation in what they hope will be a seamless transition. Holliday could still possibly be kept as a mentor/stable veteran presence but it seems that there will be considerable personnel movement for Oakland before 2010.

 

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At the risk of seeming Nitpicky

Are we not considering Iannetta to be part of the new core? I kind of lump them together, as Tulo and Iannetta got their callups right around the same time.

Follow me on Twitter! http://www.twitter.com/rockiesmagicnum

by RockiesMagicNumber on Dec 18, 2008 9:40 AM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Two reasons.

1. I thought people would understand that I too consider him part of that core along with those I did mention, I’ve been pretty outspoken about my desire to see the Rockies extend him (the Pirates are close to extending Doumit, BTW). I consider Manny Corpas part of it, I hope Franklin Morales and Jhoulys Chacin are part of it as well.

2. Even though Iannetta is a part of that core, his age doesn’t quite match up with the others, similarly to Snyder on one side of Arizona’s current core group and Upton on the other. Leaving him out is a written device to hopefully allow readers to look at the players I did name and see that O’Dowd’s targeting players around 22-23 years old for this group and expecting them to peak around 2012.

by Rox Girl on Dec 18, 2008 9:52 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sometimes I wonder how the Rockies seem to always just fall short of what's needed

The Braves are shopping Kelly Johnson for an outfielder says Ken Rosenthal, trying at different points to get Ryan Ludwick from the Cardinals and Corey Hart from the Brewers. Part of why I would have been at ease with the Ludwick/Shoemaker/Boggs for Holliday deal (even though I like the Oakland deal better) is that we could have then flipped Ludwick for Johnson and solved several issues. As it stands, the Rockies still have an outfielder that’s of that caliber, but Rosenthal neglects to add two key words: right handed. Brad Hawpe doesn’t solve the problem Frank Wren is trying to solve because he doesn’t hit LHP’s.

by Rox Girl on Dec 18, 2008 9:41 AM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So for Holliday,

the Rockies would have gotten Johnson, Shoemaker and Boggs? I like Johnson, but I assume the Braves would have wanted something else with Ludwick, because they are the ones holding up the trade (according to Dave O’Brien of AJC). Maybe Boggs would have gone with him (?), which would have been fine because Boggs didn’t look like an A or B major league prospect in ’08. Or, some other young pitcher goes and the result is the same: it reduces the trade to Holliday for Johnson and Shoemaker. So, the Rockies would have their first legitimate long-term second baseman since EY the 1st and a younger Scott Podsednik.

I’d be a big fan of trading for Johnson if the price wasn’t so high, but I don’t really understand why the price would be Ludwick+something good. The Oakland trade was better even if Johnson could’ve been had in a flip. Hopefully Street can be flipped for something good during the season and the Rockies will end up with a decent position prospect or a couple of good, young arms (and the Nationals will fall over themselves and offer John Lannan for Carlos Gonzales – Bowden’s not that dumb, right?).

by deacs on Dec 18, 2008 10:07 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's why I liked the Oakland trade more, and was only grudgingly accepting of the St. Louis deal

I think it wouldn’t have taken much beyond Ludwick to finish the deal, but as you say, the sum return wouldn’t have quite matched what we got from the A’s. That doesn’t stop me from still wishing we could get a Johnson type of fill at second for a cost of Brad Hawpe, however. If I were O’Dowd, I’d try and get the Cubs to surrender Mark DeRosa and a pitching prospect for him. It would be cost neutral for both the Cubs and Rockies on 2009 salary, which is important to both teams. It gives the Cubs the left-handed outfield bat they want and have coveted for awhile. It gives the Rockies a rental upgrade at second and some upside. The Rockies offense wouldn’t take that much of a hit because the upgrade of DeRosa over Barmes levels the downgrade of Hawpe to a Spilly/Fowler/Smith or Stewart alignment while our outfield defense will be greatly improved. I don’t know if Chicago would go for that, they might just want a straight up one for one trade thinking that DeRosa also likely brings a pair of 2010 draft picks, but it makes some sense to me.

by Rox Girl on Dec 18, 2008 10:39 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mannywood

Rox Girl-you are looking at the glass half empty. As a Dodgers fan, the contract that the Dodgers gave Furcal was backloaded for a reason. They still have two albatross contracts on the books for Andruw Jones and Jason Schmidt…they come off next year. Plus, the lower salary in 2009-2010 frees up a little more money to sign Manny, and a pitcher, don’t you think?
Colletti had approx. $60-65 million coming off the payroll this offseason and has spent:
-$6.5mm on Furcal for ’09
-$1.3mm on Loretta
-$5mm for Blake

That’s $13mm of the $60mm he has to spend….that is if he maintains the ‘08 payroll. He has plenty to spend on Manny and a starting pitcher.
The market is slow to develop, and it appears that the GMs are waiting for contract demands to come down again. I think come January there will be alot of good bargains to be had.
A full year of Furcal, Blake and possibly MAnny is almost certain to make for an improved LA team in ’09. Blake and Manny are better than what they had playing 3b and LF last year.
LA has to replace Lowe in the rotation. I don’t count Penny because he was out for most of the year, and when he did pitch, he did not pitch well, so anyone can put up his numbers from last year….and more than likely pitch better.

raygu

by raygu on Dec 18, 2008 10:57 AM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks for the perspective...

And I don’t want to negate it, but I still really doubt the Dodgers sign Manny at this point and restore the $118M payroll. But I’m going to assume for a moment that they really have $47M left to spend which is an optimistic view for LA, a pessimistic view for the Rockies and the rest of the division. Arbitration raises for Martin, Ethier and Broxton probably take $6M. Ramirez turned down $22.5 M, so let’s say that at the end of the day he has to accept that. $18.5M would then be left to fill three holes in the pitching staff. The Dodgers need two starters (one a top of the rotation type, one an innings eating fifth starter type) and another reliever. Since Lowe doesn’t want to return to LA, who’s left as a reliable top starter? Sheets is the same sort of half-reliable injured arm that the Dodgers have run into problems with signing in the past (Penny and Schmidt). RJ? Same deal, although older and more likely to be used as a hedge. Oliver Perez is healthier, but more expensive in terms of dollars and years and less consistent. $18.5 M wouldn’t be enough to sign both Sheets and Randy Johnson or Perez and Johnson, and neither scenario gives the innings you’d need to replace Lowe and still provide veteran insurance when Kershaw or McDonald struggle. It also wouldn’t allow the team to also re-sign Saito or another similar reliever. I keep coming down to the answer that in a salary level environment that the Dodgers aren’t going to sign Manny, but will instead go after Dunn or Burrell or another of the lesser outfield FA’s, and then they could possibly have enough to get some pitchers. If they are cutting salary, the situation is worse.

Counting on Furcal for a full season is sort of like Rockies fans counting on Helton for one. It’s a sketchy proposition either way, but the difference is that your Plan B in that situation (Loretta or Hu) is a steeper drop-off than ours (Atkins/Stewart). A heathy Fucal will be extremely important to your team, especially if you can’t sign Manny.

by Rox Girl on Dec 18, 2008 11:34 AM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually

The Dodgers didn’t have 60-65M to spend because of raises to guys on the payroll. We had somewhere near 45M to spend. I think there’s still about 30M left or so. We will try to add Manny and one other SP. I disagree with your thinking that we aren’t likely to get Manny though.I think that we are the favorites because McCourt will not want to lose the money Manny would bring the team. If Tex signs with the Angels (a big if to be sure) there isn’t really another good match out there for Manny.

I have to disagree with some of your statements Rox Girl:

“Even as they signed Rafael Furcal, the Dodgers did little to dispel my belief that the team has some money issues that need to be resolved”

There’s been no clear evidence of this and I see no reason to believe it is effecting the team. They’ve spent money to fill their holes and are still going hard after Manny, so I’m not sure what else they would need to do to show they have money.

“Furcal’s three year $30 million deal is backloaded to the point that a full fifty percent of its value is in the 2011 season”

Thats not true. Maybe being nitpicky but 12.5m is NOT 50% of 30M any way you wanna look at it. And they want to have more room to spend this offseason to get the guys they need and then be able to shed Jones/Schmidt’s contracts next offseason, so I don’t see this as a sign that they are short of money.

"The Dodgers need two starters (one a top of the rotation type, one an innings eating fifth starter type) "

This is a matter of opinion I guess but my question is why? Lets looks at the Dodgers and Rockies rotations by ERA+ in 2008.
Dodgers:
Billingsley: 135
Kuroda: 114
Kershaw: 100
FA
McDonald/Stults: Probably will be around 4/5 starter level, I see no reason they’d be worse than the Rox 5 starters

Rockies:
Jimenez: 115
Cook: 116
Francis: 92
De la Rosa: 94
Smith/Reynolds/Morales: Not very good (okay, sorry, but these guys don’t have a large sample size anyway, and I doubt any of them will do better than an average 5th starter)

To me, it looks like we are better off than you rotation-wise already, assuming we get even 1 half-decent starter. Randy Johnson had a 117 ERA+ last year, and Pettitte had a 98 (but with a 3.74 FIP in the AL East so you can expect that to go way up), so if we add one of those two, it looks like we’re better across the board. I see no reason why we need a frontline starter and an innings eater, thats sounds way unrealistic on your part, unless were trying to compete with the Red Sox or something. It looks like you guys will lose ground here. And I know you want improvement from Jimenez/Francis and your young guys, but we want improvement from Billz/Kershaw/McDonald as well. Bottom line, we need 1 back end starter to come out ahead of the Rox and if Colletti gets 2 thats just a luxury (or stupidity, more likely).

“It also wouldn’t allow the team to also re-sign Saito or another similar reliever”

Well, Saito is a bigger question mark than Furcal to contribute, but again I don’t see the need for a reliever, even if Ned might. Broxton and Kuo are both better than most teams best reliever even, and Wade and Troncoso are above average. I think Stults/Elbert would fill out they back end just fine, though in the end we will probably sign some relief filler. I think the Dodgers bullpen is much better than the Rockies though, even as currently constructed.

" I keep coming down to the answer that in a salary level environment that the Dodgers aren’t going to sign Manny, but will instead go after Dunn or Burrell or another of the lesser outfield FA’s"

I don’t see it. I think we’re going Manny or bust, which is a positive or negative depending on how you look at it. But from everything we’ve heard it sounds like they’ll let Pierre/Andruw compete for the last spot if we don’t sign Manny. I question how much of an upgrade Burrell is over Pierre anyway, when you consider defense. 1 win maybe? Not worth it too me. i think if they don’t get Manny they’ll spend the rest of the money on pitching.

In the end, if we sign Manny and a decent SP, I think we are definitely better than you guys. If we don’t, its probably closer than I think. But I would say we are probably both too optimistic about our teams, and the answer is probably somewhere in between. As always, great writing Rox Girl, I enjoy reading your blog.

by Brendan Scolari on Dec 18, 2008 12:36 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Okay...

There’s a lot to cover here.
1. As raygu points out, they’ve only spent $13 million thus far after having a considerably amount more come off the books after 2008. To show they have the money, they simply have to spend $118 million again. You say they will, I say the McCourt’s are making every indication that they’re not going to get that far. We’ll see by Spring Training who’s right.
2. Furcal’s making $12.5 million plus a deferred $3 million signing bonus in 2011. That’s a total of $15.5 million of the $30 milllion contract, if you still want to argue that’s not over 50% fine, but I’d like to see how the math works on that.
3. If you really want to count on Kershaw plus McDonald/Stults be my guest, but I’m pretty sure you’re GM’s smart enough not to. Kershaw’s never thrown more than 162 innings in a season, I know would like to stretch him out to maybe 180 next year, but going over that’s going to be a huge risk on his future health. He’s also only a year removed from AA, and a serious risk of regression before he lives up to his potential. If they get 180 from him, they’ll still need at least 50+ elsewhere. McDonald’s never pitched more than 142 innings. The Dodgers will max him out at 160 as a starter. Billingsley had a huge spike in his IP last season, he’s in line for a Verducci effect. I would absolutely love it if your team did the same for Kershaw and McDonald as it would give the Rockies a lot less to worry about come 2010 and beyond. That’s where the need for a second starter comes from.

I’m going to get into those issues and how you underestimate the Rockies rotation in a separate post, but I don’t think it’s the Rockies you want to be comparing rotations to, anyway. The Dodgers clearly are behind the D-backs and Giants in this category.

4. I think your bullpen is better than the Rockies also, but if you don’t sign anybody else, we’re a lot closer than you think.

5. Well, Manny’s at least $22.5 Million, if you’re right and you have $30 million left, that leaves you $7.5 million for a pitcher… I’m curious what you’ll get for that.

And finally, I agree with your last couple of sentences.

by Rox Girl on Dec 18, 2008 1:22 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sorry... I lose coherence when I'm trying to get thoughts out too quickly

“…considerably higher amount more come off the books.”

“…I know the Dodgers would like to stretch him out to maybe 180 next year.”

There are probably a few more, just wanted to correct the most egregious errors.

by Rox Girl on Dec 18, 2008 1:31 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Alright

1. I don’t think they have to spend 118M to show they have money nor did I say they would. I said they would spend to fill their holes. I think they will try to sign Manny and a SP, so whatever that brings them to. If they don’t get Manny I don’t think they will sign another OF’er so they will be under 118M but I think that is a smart move unless they could get Dunn on a cheap deal or something. I don’t think either of these scenarios points to them not having money, remember, you don’t spend money just cause you have it.

2. My bad then, didn’t realize his bonus was payed then. But I still stand by my belief that this is not a sign of them being short of money, its a strategy to pay Furcal when we have more room to because Jones/Schmidt are gone.

3. I think they are going to skip Kershaw when they can to limit his innings so he should come in around 180-190. I do think he will be in the rotation though. McDonald and Stults will probably be in the bullpen at some point and I see their innings being limited because of that, but keep in mind McDonald is already 25 so the rules are a bit different for him (he was an OF in the minors for a while). They may very well sign two guys but that only helps them become better so i don’t see that as a problem. Either way they don’t need a frontline starter really. And I am aware of the Verducci Effect but its not universal and even if Billingsley drops off some he could still be the best starter between our two teams. And yes the Giants and D-Backs have better rotations probably but i was comparing the Dodgers to the Rockies because his is a Rockies blog and I figured your comparisons were hoping the Rox were better this year.

4. You still don’t even have one top bullpen arm, unless your counting on Street, which is risky. I think there is a sizeable difference between the two, and I think the bullpen will be a problem for you guys this year.

5. I see us getting one of Johnson/Pettitte/Perez/Wolf/Garland, with that being my order of preference, with maybe another filler starter as well. We will probably pickup one negligable bullpen arm, but we had one of the best, if not the best bullpen last year, and I still see that as a big strength for our team.

by Brendan Scolari on Dec 18, 2008 1:44 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm just going to let most of this go,

I’ve made my points, and I’ll do a more thorough rotation analysis later in the offseason, but as to the bullpens:

Dodgers 2008 relief tRA* 4.03
Rockies 2008 relief tRA* 4.28

It was a quarter run of difference between our pens last season. We lose Fuentes (156 tRA+ in 2008) but gain Street (120 in 2008, 159 in 2007). If you lose Saito (154) who are you replacing him with?

Broxton 138
Kuo 161
Troncoso 118
Wade 107
Elbert 81
Stults 89
?

Rockies:
Street 120
Corpas 98
Buchholz 135
Vizcaino 107
Grilli 126
Embree 108
Speier 109

It’s not glitzy, but we don’t have the holes or question marks your pen has, this is why I think that we are a lot closer than you might be realizing in this department.

by Rox Girl on Dec 18, 2008 2:26 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Manny and LA

I think the Dodgers end up pulling a 1 years deal on Manny to make him the highest paid player in the league and Boras looks for a 3 year deal next year in hopes the economy is on an upswing.

Apparently no team is willing to pony up 4 years for him and 2 is an insult. The bridge to the situation is a one year monster deal. The Dodgers want Manny on their billboards and magazines, but they don’t want a long-term commitment. As it stands, only the Yankees, Angels and Dodgers have a desire to give him a deal and with none offering more than 2 years, he will be a Dodger. With all the drama he provides when he’s not happy, Hollywood is a fitting place.

by brainteaser on Dec 18, 2008 12:39 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

All time Rockies team... home grown vs. acquired

I am doing a project for the off season where I am comparing the best all time roster of home grown players vs. the best all time roster of acquired players

I just finished writing the post for The Rockies

Basically I compare a 25 man roster of home grown players like Helton and Tulo and Hawpe vs a 25 man roster of players like Gallaraga, Bichette and Larry Walker.

It was kind of tough putting together a 10 man pitching staff for both teams (Kevin Ritz and Jerry DiPoto get honored) and I have a personal reason to honor Quinton McCracken

I would love to get some Rockies fans take on this.
In full disclosure I am a Red Sox fan but I am doing this for all 30 teams

Let me know what you think, if I left anyone out and if I was too harsh on Matt Holiday (he should NEVER have been picked off)

All the best

by SullyBaseball on Dec 18, 2008 11:04 PM MST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Some interesting choices, but.....

you forgot the best relief pitcher in Rockies history, this side of Brian Fuentes….

Steve Reed

by GoRoxGo on Dec 18, 2008 11:18 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ellis Burks

Starting CF, acquired.

Joe Girardi C, acquired.

John Vander Wal PH, acquired—most feared PH in the game.

Swift or Saberhagen for SP, acquired, instead of Fogg.

Chacon should be a starter for homegrown. I try to block his bullpen stint out of my memory. And get Yorvit Torrealba the hell of that team immediately. He is like Toby on the Office—the worst.

Those Blake Street Bombers were flat awesome to watch, yesirree.

Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jabberwocky on Dec 19, 2008 3:17 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Vander Wal

is on there already as reserve outfielder.

And yeah, I say Girardi as starting catcher.

Also not accounted for is Curtis Leskanic. At least for being the guy on the mound when they clinched the Wild Card in 1995.

by holly96 on Dec 19, 2008 4:24 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I realize that...

And am saying that he should be the PH, Burks in CF, and Taveras a long way from the team.

Also, I have an irrational hatred of Curtis Leskanic.

Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jabberwocky on Dec 19, 2008 4:58 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree

about Burks and Taveras.

I don’t think the blogger has a specified PH spot for any of the teams he’s done this for. If so, I’m sure Vander Wal would be it.

I always liked Leskanic. But I feel you on irrational hatreds, as I have them too. Can’t think of any baseball players at the moment, but I have a seething, irrational hatred of Fry’s Electronics (I don’t think they exist in Colorado). I’ve never set foot in one and I refuse to ever do so.

by holly96 on Dec 19, 2008 5:14 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oops

*If he did, I’m sure Vander Wal would be it.

That didn’t make sense the way I have it there.

by holly96 on Dec 19, 2008 5:14 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fry's Electronics?

Really? I love that store….

#33, Washington Redskin 1937-1952, Pro Football HOF Class of 1963.

Rest In Peace, Slingin' Sammy Baugh

by DbacksSkins on Dec 19, 2008 5:20 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's why

it’s irrational.

To be honest, it’s mostly due to their advertising. I was never exposed to them until I moved here to the Bay Area in 2000, and their advertising is ubiquitous. But it’s not so much that I suddenly saw too much of the ads, but that I cannot stand the ads themselves. They make me want to stab something.

by holly96 on Dec 19, 2008 5:50 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I always kind of liked how they all have different design themes

Like the alien spaceship in Burbank which makes them a little less cookie cutter, but I’ve never actually bought anything in a Fry’s, so maybe there is something sinister underneath the surface that I haven’t seen yet.

by Rox Girl on Dec 19, 2008 5:26 PM MST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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