Tuesday Pebble Report: Compiled Top Prospects Lists for the Colorado Rockies
Here's a look at how our PuRPs list compares with three of the more reputable prospect rankings. Baseball America won't have the Rockies list until January 26.
| Rank | Minor League Ball | BP | PuRPs | BA |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Dexter Fowler | Dexter Fowler | Dexter Fowler | ? |
| 2 | Jhoulys Chacin | Jhoulys Chacin | Jhoulys Chacin | ? |
| 3 | Christian Friedrich | Wilin Rosario | Christian Friedrich | ? |
| 4 | Wilin Rosario | Christian Friedrich | Brandon Hynick | ? |
| 5 | Connor Graham | Casey Weathers | Michael McKenry | ? |
| 6 | Michael McKenry | Michael McKenry | Eric Young, Jr. | ? |
| 7 | Eric Young, Jr. | Hector Gomez | Chris Nelson | ? |
| 8 | Aneury Rodriguez | Connor Graham | Casey Weathers | ? |
| 9 | Casey Weathers | Eric Young, Jr. | Charlie Blackmon | ? |
| 10 | Charlie Blackmon | Charlie Blackmon | Connor Graham | ? |
| 11 | Darin Holcomb | Seth Smith | Aneury Rodriguez* | ? |
| 12 | Will Harris | - | Hector Gomez* | ? |
| 13 | Dan Mayora | - | Wilin Rosario | ? |
| 14 | Hector Gomez | - | Keith Wesier | ? |
| 15 | Seth Smith | - | Darin Holcomb | ? |
| 16 | Chris Nelson | - | Chaz Roe | ? |
| 17 | Brandon Hynick | - | Joe Koshansky | ? |
| 18 | Parker Frazier | - | Shane Lindsay | ? |
| 19 | Chaz Roe | - | Delta Cleary | ? |
| 20 | Delta Cleary | - | Cory Riordan | ? |
| 21 | - | - | Everth Cabrera** | ? |
| 22 | - | - | Matt Miller | ? |
| 23 | - | - | Christian Colonel | ? |
| 24 | - | - | Esmil Rogers | ? |
| 25 | - | - | Jeff Kindel | ? |
| 26 | - | - | Ryan Mattheus | ? |
| 27 | - | - | Corey Wimberly | ? |
| 28 | - | - | Jonathan Herrera | ? |
| 29 | - | - | Juan Morillo | ? |
| 30 | - | - | Aaron Weatherford | ? |
* - Tied for 11 on PuRPs list.
** - With the Padres right now after being chosen in the Rule 5 draft.
0 recs |
54 comments
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Comments
Since we're speaking about our prospects today...
This EY2 interview with Lisa Winston was posted last week. The one rule he would change is the four and five eligibility year, which I found interesting since he himself wasn’t picked in the Rule 5 draft last season despite being eligible.
by Rox Girl on Dec 23, 2008 7:05 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Triple A Ball
I have this perpetual concern about CSprings having a detrimental effect on hitters. It sounds absurd, but when you can put up a .290/.360/.600 line down there (exaggerated? most likely, but still) and then bat like .240/.310/.400 everywhere else, won’t it screw with a player’s understanding of their own power swing?
We have the humidor in Coors, which helps the pitchers to shake off the thought that anything hit is gone, and gives them room for error, which can build confidence, etc.
My concern with Csprings is that 1. For batters, they might overemphasize their own power potential rather than learn good plate discipline, a level swing, whatever. Normally I wouldn’t worry about this, but with the real talent, the progression is :
Do good in A ball for 1 or 2 seasons
During the 2nd season in A ball get called up to AA
OR after the 1st season get called up to AA
Spend 1-1.5 seasons in AA
Murder baseball
Get a Sept callup to the show
Thrive
But then with the borderline talent, we get:
Spend 2 years batting .250/.325/.380 in A ball
3rd year in A ball put up a .330/.410/.520 line in the first half
Get AA callup
Flounder
Put up a .280/.360/.440 line
Get AAA callup
Flounder
Middle in AAA
OK hold it there
The headcases:
Do good in A ball for 1 or 2 seasons
During the 2nd season in A ball get called up to AA
OR after the 1st season get called up to AA
Spend 1-1.5 seasons in AA
Murder baseball
And stop there
Now for both the headcases and borderlines, we THEN get
Get MLB Sept callup
Show promise
Start season on bench
Get rocked
10 Get sent down to “work on swing”
20 Get called up for injury relief
30 Get rocked
GOTO 10
Repeat ad infinitum
Apply the same for pitchers, and it’s even worse. The Springs has to absolutely devastate any sort of consistency or confidence a young pitcher might build as he watches the ball slowly float about 200 yards out of the park.
I’m concerned AAA CSprings will ruin Dex, Morales, Reynolds, and Hirsh.
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by Andrew Martin on Dec 23, 2008 9:11 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Oh no
That’s a wall of text, should I repaste it as a fanpost? Can a mod delete it if I do as such? Or is it ok?
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by Andrew Martin on Dec 23, 2008 9:12 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
This is good... it's a jumping off point for comments here
And it could help you fine tune your argument if you still want to do a fanpost on it later.
by Rox Girl on Dec 23, 2008 9:26 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Col. Springs
also has a pretty small park and is higher in elevation than Coors Field. I think the answer is a humidor. The Rockies would like the Springs to have one…..the Sky Sox then said, well if you want one so bad, you guys buy one, as we don’t have to provide that and it’s costly…….But the Rockies don’t want to buy one for another business (the Sky Sox).
If I was running things, I would also move the outfield bill boards to have an OF, the exact same dimensions as Coors Field. This would give OF’s a familiarity with Coors as soon as they get here, and shouldn’t be that hard or costly to do….I mean OSB boards and fence posts aren’t that expensive.
Thought Clint Hurdle should be fired before it was cool.
by Redhawk on Dec 23, 2008 9:27 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I should have added
I think Col. Springs hurts the pitchers developments more than it does the batters. They get no feel for locating breaking pitches. Altitude, and a dry ball, and a young arm, are a bad combo and completely different than it is at Tulsa. They get to Coors Field, and get a bigger field, and wet/normal balls, and it’s a new feel. The pitchers have to adjust not to hitters, but to their environment, at each level.
Thought Clint Hurdle should be fired before it was cool.
by Redhawk on Dec 23, 2008 9:30 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
That's the real concern
It almost feels like they take 2 steps forward and 1 step back in the Springs – they face tougher competition, but then they lose all the pitch development. They come to the show, they get roughed up a bit, and then the real talent settles in and builds on small things. It’s almost backwards, they learn to get destroyed in AAA and learn to rebound in Coors.
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by Andrew Martin on Dec 23, 2008 9:39 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
You'd think the Parent club would spring for a humidor
I mean, this is their future they’re investing into.
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by Andrew Martin on Dec 23, 2008 9:39 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I've got a longer post on this on the backburner..,
It should be up sometime in January, but I worry about the Rockies falling behind in what I would call infrastructure investment on the farm in general at an economic peer level. You read about teams like the Pirates (a big new DSL facility) and Rays (MLB’s first Brazilian academy) pouring a lot of money into their infrastructure, and I would consider something so simple as humidors for Colorado Springs, Casper, probably Tulsa and Modesto as part of that, but at the same time I see the complexity of pouring money into somebody else’s business. The solution is to own their minor league franchises like the Braves and Red Sox, but that’s a really expensive solution.
by Rox Girl on Dec 23, 2008 9:50 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think I see it the same way as far as our position players go...
I think Colorado Springs can provide a confident boost for young hitters that struggle in their first exposure to the big leagues. I’ve seen it with Iannetta and Stewart and to some extent Tulo after his rehab appearances down there, and I’m suspecting the same effect will take place with Fowler. The swings and approaches were actually more messed up in the MLB.
The pitchers? That’s a different story, as the only way to look at it positively is as a refiner’s fire that weeds out the pretenders or marginal talents and turn prospects from throwers to pitchers. If you don’t know how to pitch, you’ll get creamed at the Springs. I still don’t know if it’s beneficial to the Rockies, however, as Ubaldo Jimenez is the only Rockies starter that has seemingly emerged from a long stay down there as an asset.
by Rox Girl on Dec 23, 2008 9:36 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
errr... "confidence boost"
I’m in the process of replacing my editor, the last one was fired for wearing fuzzy slippers while blogging.
by Rox Girl on Dec 23, 2008 9:43 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
understood
yeah my type guy did his work in bed at 11:30pm, hence Huston Street is suddenly ambidextrous.
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by Andrew Martin on Dec 23, 2008 9:49 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
So are you praising the coaching staff?
I don’t know much about baseball development, beyond BB/9 in AA at age 22 etc etc, but it seems that young batters would try and develop an uppercut in CSprings because of the HR propensity, maybe even develop overconfidence.
Do you think Alan Cockrell was a problem up here? Or that Baylor might just help that much more?
I fear AAA because you get all the Sean Barker borderline AAAA types who feel they should be in the show, and I also fear that their attitude might spread to the young talent, hence the hopes that AA=>MLB works.
(I’m not actually accusing Barker of being a bad attitude, just using him as the AAAA example. I’m sure it’s not a reach for other players in similar situations, though.)
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by Andrew Martin on Dec 23, 2008 9:48 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Cockrell was the issue,
So much as it was just bad habits that the MLB team couldn’t afford to let the players work out on the fly. You have to let veterans like Atkins and Helton work their issues out on the major league level thanks to the CBA, so using the options for the younger players who are struggling at the same time is an efficient way of spreading the damage off the team.
That said, I think Baylor will be better at getting veterans over their issues quicker.
I haven’t seen the uppercut tendencies from C-Springs lately besides a few players like JoKo who already had that in their swing before they got there. I guess kudos to the AAA coaching staff for that. Smith, Stewart, Tulo and Iannetta all remain solid line drive hitters.
by Rox Girl on Dec 23, 2008 10:01 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
From the division OBP breakdown
Is O-Contact% something you can affect without totally messing with your swing? I’d love to see Iannetta become Helton 2.0 in terms of plate discipline.
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by Andrew Martin on Dec 23, 2008 10:10 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
BJ Upton is a pretty good example
of a player that saw a dramatic rise in his O-Contact rate in 2008 without affecting the rest of his peripheral batted ball stats, so I know it’s possible. Iannetta doesn’t exactly fit the scouting profile of Upton or Helton, however, so I’m a little skeptical that he’ll be able to as well.
by Rox Girl on Dec 23, 2008 10:28 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
He already has a wicked eye
I was more just saying Helton = THE Example of Plate Discipline, not necessarily that Iannetta would becoming Helton. Not nearly enough bat speed.
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by Andrew Martin on Dec 23, 2008 10:51 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Totally off subject
but Thomas Harding made another coherent response!
"Who has a better chance at starting in left field: Seth Smith or Carlos Gonzalez?
— Bobby T., Fort Collins, Colo.
The Rockies really liked Smith’s hitting approach last season. They feel his .350 on-base percentage, combined with his controlled swing and his strength, will translate into a high average and run production."
ON BASE PERCENTAGE and no mention of RBIs or anything.
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by Andrew Martin on Dec 23, 2008 11:55 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Shockingly
I also liked his point about the team talking up Seth Smith so as to insulate CarGo from outside expectations (although this is probably about insulating the team as much). Also saw a piece on the official team page about Gonzales having Dengue Fever earlier this year, but somehow he’s recovered enough to be crushing it in one of the Latin leagues. Interesting stuff.
by Hizilla on Dec 23, 2008 12:51 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
You didn't react like this....
….when Todd Helton recovered from smallpox, or when Andres Galarraga beat bubonic plague, did you?
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 24, 2008 2:52 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
God no. But I did react this way when Bichette got shingles.
by onholliday on Dec 25, 2008 12:15 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
What about
Eric Young Sr.’s tuberculosis, or when Larry Walker beat Marburg?
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 25, 2008 12:42 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Not involving the rockies but the Yankees just signed Teixeria
8 years 180 million. so they’ve now spent over $400 million this offseason
by purplesocks on Dec 23, 2008 2:01 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Plus
they now have the four highest paid players in baseball.
by holly96 on Dec 23, 2008 2:10 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Can the rest of MLB.....
pursue with the Obama Department of Justice any antitrust charges against the Yankees? After all, they are monopolizing the high profile free agent market, and restraining trade between other clubs.
(j/k, this team just needs more competition such as a 3rd NYC franchise located in New Jersey or Brooklyn.)
by GoRoxGo on Dec 23, 2008 3:12 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually Baseball
was granted along time ago, Anti-trust exemption. The only sport, and industry (I think) that has this exemption.
BUT….baseball really needs to address this. If they want a super-level of 7 teams, then just do it, and then set up something for the rest of us to play for. The inequality is getting out of hand.
Thought Clint Hurdle should be fired before it was cool.
by Redhawk on Dec 23, 2008 6:02 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess
But now may not be the best time to cry inequality since even with all these signings the Yankee payroll is still expected to drop from last year’s…
by Resolution on Dec 23, 2008 9:31 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on
the antitrust exemption. The NFL has antitrust exemption concerning sale of TV broadcasting rights after the passage of the 1961 Sports Broadcasting Act (you know, the act Arlen Specter wanted to revoke when some more important things could have been done).
"Never Surrender Dreams" - Inscription on J. Michael Straczynski's bench
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by Russ Oates on Dec 23, 2008 9:42 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Baseball's anti-trust is viewed as blanket exemption
The baseball antitrust exemption that has become such a hotly debated issue this year stems from a 1922 United States Supreme Court decision. The ruling came in a case brought by one of the teams from the defunct Federal League, a rival baseball league that sued the major leagues for allegedly trying to destroy it.
In its decision, the court ruled that baseball did not fall within the scope of antitrust laws because its business did not involve interstate commerce but instead was purely a state affair.
The Court affirmed the exemption in 1953 and again in 1972, when Curt Flood challenged baseball’s reserve system. The Court finally acknowledged that baseball engaged in interstate commerce and even noted the anomaly of its having such an exemption when other sports did not. But it determined that Congressional inaction to repeal the exemption implied a continued approval.
The Court has never delineated what is covered by the exemption. But it has come to embrace a blanket immunity from Federal court action regarding player movement, franchise shifts, expansion, broadcasting, team ownership, the minor leagues and the amateur draft.
From the NY times many years ago
Interestingly a fellow SB nation blog had an outline of it just a couple weeks ago
Thought Clint Hurdle should be fired before it was cool.
by Redhawk on Dec 23, 2008 10:15 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
The reasoning
behind the court’s opinion is absurd…of course, there’s the great rumor that the entire reason Tampa got the Rays is because SF was going to move there and baseball told the owners that it would not let SF move to Tampa …and when Tampa threatened to sue, MLB responded with expansion. Hard to say that the exemption has much value if the threat of legal action forces MLB’s hand (if true). Of course, other exemptions may apply anyway. I don’t know why this is all springing back to me, I took a class on this like 8 years ago. Anyway, sports law was not nearly as fun as it sounded. I think I did a whole paper on Elvis Grbac and for the life of me I can’t remember what it was about…
by Teekalong on Dec 24, 2008 1:15 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that's a rumor.
I think that’s the truth….
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 24, 2008 7:18 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of Curt Flood
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Baseball_Project
It’s a fun album, and there’s a song about Curt Flood.
by onholliday on Dec 24, 2008 1:22 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
It involves us indirectly, at least...
This muddies the Manny Ramirez situation, and in my mind makes LA a little more likely to sign him at this point, if one assumes that the Yanks are finally approaching their credit limit. I doubt the Nats/Orioles would be as interested in him, and I know his bridges in Boston are burnt.
by Rox Girl on Dec 23, 2008 4:17 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Why don't WE sign Manny?
I know this would never happen, and that Manny would butcher leftfield at Coors, but hear me out.
1. By signing Manny, we would be making a “blocking move” and prevent the Dodgers from getting him.
2. Also, imagine the numbers Manny could put up the next two seasons! Manny is still productive enough to put up a .300/.430/.600 year or two with us. That would be good for him, because…
3. It sets up Manny for a final 3-year, $60 million deal to end his career. Coming off his Coors stint, Manny will have the aura of a Barry Bonds offensive type player whose age does not affect his hitting much. With a better economy in the 2010/11 offseason, Manny would be sitting pretty.
We could sign Manny, potentially, for 2 years at $40 million. And he would be worth every penny. This is a bad year for free agents unless the Yankees want you, and Manny’s agent could be pitched on the benefits of a short-term deal.
Finally, the Rockies need to do something, SOMETHING, to motivate fans to go out and buy tickets for this season. What could get the fanbase more excited than to sign the most prolific slugger on the free agent market!?! It would be very unlike the Rockies to do such a thing, but could be just the stroke of genius to win us the division for the first time in team history.
Now, I know it won’t happen, but this is the type of “outside the box” thinking I’d like to see DOD and the Monforts do, and it would have a great chance of actually working!
by GoRoxGo on Dec 23, 2008 4:53 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, there is one reason
the Rockies don’t have the cash. It’s the same reason I don’t have a house in Genesse, and date model twins from UNC…like this month’s Playboy girls:
Thought Clint Hurdle should be fired before it was cool.
by Redhawk on Dec 23, 2008 6:07 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
UNC as in Northern Colorado?
DAMN
by purplesocks on Dec 23, 2008 9:43 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
19 year old twins from Greely…stayed at home to go to N. Col. and were Playboy’s playmates for Dec.
Thought Clint Hurdle should be fired before it was cool.
by Redhawk on Dec 23, 2008 10:07 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
The article
mentions that they are 22-years-young.
(Waits for funny response).
"Never Surrender Dreams" - Inscription on J. Michael Straczynski's bench
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
by Russ Oates on Dec 23, 2008 10:18 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
that’s really what you would do if you had the cash?
by onholliday on Dec 24, 2008 1:24 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
::insert Office Space reference::
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by DbacksSkins on Dec 24, 2008 2:53 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
what would you do with a million bucks
two girls at the same time
by purplesocks on Dec 24, 2008 3:57 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
I could see the Teixeira signing make the Angels really jump into the Manny game, even more so than the Dodgers. The Dodgers have a few holes but the Angels really only have one hole and that’s a power bat aside from Vlad. They needed Teixeira and Manny is their one other option. Of course, signing Manny would just make their OF/DH/crappy defense glut-problem that much larger, but hey, he’ll generate a ton of ticket sales…
by Resolution on Dec 23, 2008 9:35 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Our top 20 list has one flaw
and that’s Wilin Rosario and Brandon Hynick needing to switch places. Otherwise, it compares favorably.
Now our 21-30…
by David OhNo on Dec 23, 2008 6:25 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
A couple of omissions, but it could be a lot worse for a fan poll...
Scott Robinson and Kiel Roling deserve more attention and clearly Colonel and Kindel and Miller’s utility (I’d add Wimberly, myself to that list) to an MLB roster would be replacement level, but they aren’t total stiffs. What were your thoughts on that group?
by Rox Girl on Dec 23, 2008 7:24 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't have high big league opinions of
Colonel, Miller, Kindel, or Wimberly. I may look the other way on Wimberly, but I doubt you find many evaluators that believe Colonel, Miller, or Kindel are amongst the best thirty players in the organization. Both Roling and Robinson are guys worth mentioning, as was Tyler Massey, who was spoken highly of in BA’s draft report card, and I expect him to make BA’s list as well. Frazier is the most notable omission compared to where he ranked on my list (22), followed by Will Harris and Carlos Martinez.
by David OhNo on Dec 23, 2008 8:12 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I had Frazier in the same area (24).
Looking over the entries, Frazier appeared on three of the ten ballots (yours, mine, and malakian’s 27). And we were the only ones to have Carlos Martinez on our lists.
Kindel was on four of the ten ballots. I cast one of those votes, but two others placed him at or just outside the top ten.
Given the way Rox Girl originally set out the voting system (and where was your list in the last vote?), we see the flaws generated by the value system assigned to each spot. Given the different ways some here view a prospect, a more equitable system should be created.
"Never Surrender Dreams" - Inscription on J. Michael Straczynski's bench
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
by Russ Oates on Dec 23, 2008 8:58 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Dan Houston was another guy I had in the 20's (25)
I did go ‘08 draft heavy, but at the same time, our system just isn’t that strong in the “major league regulars” department.
by David OhNo on Dec 23, 2008 9:28 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I probably would have had Hollingsworth instead of Houston
But the same principle applied. I thought Frazier was such a slam dunk that I didn’t even notice he was missing.
My apologies to Russ by the way for no ballot. As to the flaws in the system, I think maybe a decent solution might be to do a star-ranking (make a list of prospects but also assign 1-5 stars) poll at each level before the PuRPs voting, and then assign prospects to tiers for a second vote based on the results of the first. It would be a little complicated but it would weed out a few of the non-prospects and allow a few more legit ones in at the end.
by Rox Girl on Dec 23, 2008 9:51 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I didn’t see this post when I wrote up the one below, however, I agree that if you want a poll that resembles the others, then a grading or star system is a must.
by roxhead on Dec 23, 2008 11:52 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't want Purple Row's poll to resemble the others...
The others miss players like Riordan or Weiser, for instance, who I think are worthy candidates. I want a poll that does a better job of catching them and players like Robinson and Frazier at the same time. I think by breaking it off into a poll for each level first and having voters weigh what they think these players’ future is, it could work.
by Rox Girl on Dec 24, 2008 7:09 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I think that’s the purpose – pick up on potential sleepers who might fall through the cracks in other rating systems.
by onholliday on Dec 24, 2008 1:27 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Too big
The reason that I rarely vote in the Purps poll is that I don’t feel that I can fairly rank players past the top 10 or 15 prospects.
Anything that established the pool of players first or otherwise made the poll a little less intimidating might be a good idea.
by MADness on Dec 24, 2008 1:42 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

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