Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: The Worst Team Ever Projected?

Friday Rockpile: The Marquis of Sod

According to a Tracy Ringolsby post this morning, the Rockies are getting outgunned in their pursuit of a pitcher that they want, Tim Redding, so rather than competing with other teams in the matter -which correct me if I'm wrong, competing with other teams is the point of sports, right?- they're thinking of opting for an expensive player that nobody else wants in Jason Marquis. The path to victory doesn't usually go the way of least resistance, last I checked, and I was about to go off on this idea, but at half salary Marquis isn't a bad option, with an ERA + the last two seasons of 101 and 99, and a tRA+ of 99 and 98, he's pretty much the definition of league average. If you're talking about that from a guy you want in the middle of your rotation in the NL West it would be scary, but if you're talking about that guy as a safety if your better hopes don't work out, then I can think of far worse directions we could go (Josh Fogg). CHONE's projection for Marquis sees a decline this year to #5 starter level, but still values him at $4.6 million for 2009 which is just a bit below what a 50% share of his salary would entail. Redding figures to be less valuable, but could cost more, and certainly will come at a greater premium over his projected $2.9 million value.

The one aspect that isn't factored in at all is if a trade of Marquis would also involve a player cost, which could tip it into an unwise use of resources category, but there are a few options that could work. A Marquis for David Patton and cash considerations trade makes some sense, for instance, since Patton's already on Chicago's roster after the Rule 5 draft and there's already some risk of the Rockies losing him, but he would have to clear waivers before that could happen. I was originally thinking I was going to be upset about this plan, but there's little reason to be at this point.

About a year ago I did an audit of Rockies player contributions for 2007 by the year of original acquisition, and I'm working on a similar study for 2008 to be up sometime this weekend, hoepfully tonight, but I've got my traditional Boxing Day festivities to work around.

Ringolsby also did a Winter Ball update, I just wanted to add a couple of other notes. Xavier Cedeno is doing very well out of relief in the Puerto Rican League, with a 1.35 ERA and 2.83 GB ratio. Carlos Gonzalez, meanwhile, is struggling after an initial burst in his return to DWL play with a .216 average and a 1/10 BB/K ratio in his last ten games.

Comment 4 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Marquis

Growing up as kid my family had very little money. At Christmas I would have prefered that they pool that money and get me one quality present instead wasting the money on disposable knick-knacks.

The Rockies take the same angle to the offseason. While I was in favor of trading Holliday to free up cash to fill holes, they’ve used that cash to ink Rusch, Embree, and possibly trade for Marquis.

Say we take Marquis’ $5 mill, Embree’s $2.5 mill (with incentives), and the fraction of a mill used on Rusch and offered Brad Penny a 1 yer deal, would we be better? I think so. We’ll assume injuries aside Penny could perform at a slotted 2 or 3. I also think that his performance would have a greater effect than 3, 4, 5 or even 6 players of the above mentioned caliber. 4 times zero is till zero.

Oppertunity costs are involved as well. Going after Marquis says that Reynolds/Hirsh/Morales/Smith…etc couldn’t match Marquis’ season out put (which I think it can) and as a result a young arm gets left in the bull pen or worse-the minors. For Penny I could justify making this kind of move but going after Marquis plus others looks like quantity over quality.

InToddwetrust

by InToddwetrust on Dec 26, 2008 9:49 AM MST reply actions  

There are some flaws in this argument

1. Brad Penny isn’t going to sign with Colorado, certainly not at $8 million a year likely not at all. He’s trying to rebuild his value for a better payout next winter, which makes Coors Field a destination of last resort. If you can find me a quality starter who would sign for Colorado at that price, the argument would be more valid, but I’m not seeing one. So let’s set that aside though and assume for a second that there is such a pitcher…
2. You can’t ever assume “injuries aside”. Penny is an inherent injury risk, and you always have to figure that into the cost. Marquis is much less an injury risk. So while 30 games of Penny easily beats 30 games of Marquis, 10 games of Penny plus 20 games of a starter the caliber of say 2007 Reynolds would be devastating, especially considering that you’re paying more and weren’t able to fill other slots.
3. Speaking of which, who do you get instead of Rusch or Embree for their roles at that point? The options become Greg Smith and Franklin Morales, which might not be bad, but are fairly substantial risks as unknowns and there isn’t any safety net should they get injured or prove ineffective. The cost in trade of an emergency relief fill after the season starts is substantial, you’re putting our better prospects on the line by taking this risk.
4. As for those opportunity costs you mention, I don’t see them. If Reynolds/Hirsh/Morales/Smith are substantially better than Marquis in 2009 (none project to be, but I too see that potential, the key point though is that we don’t know that they can) the Rockies should be able to trade Jason pretty quickly given that the Cubs would be picking up half his salary and making his cost more in line with his true value.

If you understand that there is not an outside rotation upgrade available to the Rockies right now, which I think is the primary hurdle you have to get over, the task is to stabilize the rotation we already have. Raise the floor if you can’t raise the ceiling, and Marquis does that.

by Rox Girl on Dec 26, 2008 10:31 AM MST up reply actions  

Ok

Here’s what I think

1) Brad Penny probably isn’t going to sign with the Rockies, that’s true. $8 Mill for one year of a pitcher re-establishing his value does seem fair-as far as a pitcher goes, Juan Cruz. Is he the same tier as Penny, no. Marquis, I think so. Is there one of similar value on the market-not sure but give me a day or two and I’ll get back to you

2) Yeah, I know you can’t assume he won’t be injured-that’s true. Picking Reynolds as your fill in is picking the worst of the lot but ok. By going with prospects we at least make a commitment to a direction. Trading for other teams garbage doesn’t guarentee an upgrade.

3) Who do I get instead of Rusch and Embree? How about Juan Cruz as the swing man out of the pen, yes he has A status. Embree is a solid if unspectacular and could be a stable force.

4) Billy Beane-love him or hate him-makes other teams look silly by sticking with no name prospects in the pen then selling high. Could we? We traded Ramierez,lost Newman, lost Patton, etc. While I don’t know enough to peg any the next K-Rod it’s worth a look.

We just saved 13.5 big ones by dumping Holliday. My response to today’s article has to do with my displeasure with the little we’ve done to get better-Marquis is fine in the role he’s got..barely hanging on as the 4 or 5 on a great pitching staff. Considering the difference in where the cubs and the rockies are I simply feel we could spent that money elsewhere while relying on all that homegrown talent I hear about.

As for my understanding, several seasons ago you specifically jumped on my disbelief that BK would be a solid contributor in a fashion that’s similar to now. While I don’t run a rockies blog its fair to assume that I throw out names that are better (Garland, Sheets, Perez). There are upgrades available if we step outside of “self imposed salary cap” could help the team. Is that Utopic? Maybe.

Worst case scenario we agree to disagree

InToddwetrust

by InToddwetrust on Dec 26, 2008 6:47 PM MST reply actions  

I think that's where we end up...

Agreeing to disagree. I think it’s kind of weird how we have different memories of things, I think you’re referring to this Diary about me “jumping on” your disbelief that BK would be a solid contributor, and I can tell you that I wasn’t jumping on your disbelief then about that nearly as much as I am your disbelief in Marquis now. He’s not garbage, he’s had one bad season out of the last five, which is just as many as Juan Cruz has had, it’s just as many as Brad Penny has had, otherwise he’s been remarkably consistent.

Have you looked at Penny’s projection by the way? The numbers are only marginally better than Marquis’. Garland’s and Perez’s projections are even closer to Jason. While I think we could possibly sign Garland, Perez and Ben Sheets aren’t coming here. I don’t know if it’s worth it to pay $3 million more to Garland over Marquis for a quarter run difference in ERA and a downgrade in the bullpen from Embree. Over 28 starts (avg 6 IP), which would be a bad case scenario that entails Morales, Hirsh, Reynolds or Smith not stepping up, you’d be talking about less than five runs difference between them.

Cruz would cost a second round draft choice and pitch only sixty innings, but I actually have advocated going after him already this offseason. Is he a better option than Marquis? I really don’t know. I guess it depends on how confident we are in Street/Corpas, but I see signing him at that point fits essentially the same purpose in the bullpen as acquiring Marquis does for the rotation. He’s there in case the guys you already have aren’t everything you hope they could be. Given that starting pitching is typically more valuable, I could see why the Rockies would choose to prioritize insuring that side of things.

Finally, I just think the money situation is what it is. We gave up Holliday. The Padres are trying to unload Peavy. The D-backs are going to be giving up Webb next winter. It’s the same story in every town outside the big metro areas and the same arguments used by fans that think they could better run the team by racking up debt to pay salary. It will all work out if they’re one of the six teams to make the playoffs and get a little lucky in the first round. That’s not running a business, it’s gambling. Yes, some expenditure is required to return capital, some investment will be needed to make gains, but the kind of massive investment that’s required to give an NL team a solid chance for the playoffs just isn’t available unless we want to see the franchise devalue itself again like it had to do in 2003 when FSN bought their stake because ownership was under the gun. I’d rather the team continue to build a product and a brand that will be sustainable than one that sees it’s value eroding under the weight of multiple ill-conceived long term commitments.

by Rox Girl on Dec 26, 2008 9:08 PM MST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about the Colorado Rockies, established 28 April 2005.

Community Guidelines
RockiesRoster.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Paul_by_jerichasmall_small
PRMLB February Thread

Recent FanPosts

Rockieshat1_small
Purple Row Cares: In memory of Thomas Harding's son
Small
On Addiction and Major League Baseball
Small
Musical Analysis of Baseball
Img_1229_small
Better Things: Starting Pitching in 2012
Rockies1_small
2012 Projected Opening Day Payroll
2009__1_small
Opening Day & Fireworks Tickets
Img_1229_small
Mount Olympus on Lake Otsego
Img_1229_small
PRMLB: The January Thread
Avatar_small
Off Season Picture Time

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Colorado Sports Blogs

Mile High Report (Denver Broncos)
Mile High Hockey (Colorado Avalanche)
Denver Stiffs (Denver Nuggets)
Burgundy Wave (Colorado Rapids)
The Ralphie Report (CU Buffaloes)
SB Nation Denver

Top 30 PuRPs

  1. Drew Pomeranz, LHP - AA/MLB
  2. Nolan Arenado, 3B - A (Adv)
  3. Wilin Rosario, C - AA/MLB
  4. Chad Bettis, RHP - A (Adv)
  5. Tyler Matzek, A (Adv), A
  6. Alex White, AA/MLB
  7. Kyle Parker, OF - A
  8. Tim Wheeler, OF - AA
  9. Josh Rutledge, SS - A (Adv)
  10. Charlie Blackmon, OF - MLB
  11. Rosell Herrera, SS/3B - Rookie
  12. Trevor Story, SS/3B - Rookie
  13. Edwar Cabrera, LHP - A (Adv)
  14. Tyler Anderson, LHP - unassigned
  15. Rafael Ortega, OF - A
  16. Peter Tago, RHP, A
  17. Christian Friedrich, LHP - AA
  18. Joe Gardner, RHP - AA
  19. Corey Dickerson, OF - Low-A
  20. Thomas Field, 2B - AA
  21. Will Swanner, C - Rookie
  22. Kent Matthes, OF - A (Adv)
  23. Albert Campos, RHP - A
  24. Jordan Pacheco, C/UT - AAA/MLB
  25. Cristhian Adames, SS - A
  26. Ben Paulsen, 1B - AA
  27. Josh Slaats, RHP - Low-A
  28. David Kandilas, CF - Rookie
  29. Jayson Aquino, LHP - DSL
  30. Hector Gomez, SS - AA/MLB
HM:  
Edgmer Escalona, RHP - AAA/MLB
Dillon Thomas, OF - Rookie
Sam Mende, IF - Rookie
Mike Zuanich, 1B - AA
Dan Houston, RHP - AA

updated 10/25/2011. 


Managers

Rox_girl_small Rox Girl

35l7yvb_small Andrew Martin

Staff

Jeff_aberle_small Jeff Aberle

Poison-the-well-the-tropic-rot_small Bryan Kilpatrick

Avatar2_small Andrew T. Fisher

Wittgenstein_small Greg Stanwood

Special Assistants to the GM

Rockies_lost_americana_small holly96