Tuesday Rockpile: The Rockies have names aplenty.

by Russ Oates on Dec 9, 2008 8:50 AM MST in Rockpile Comment 62 comments

Here are some bullets:

Glendon Rusch and the Colorado Rockies are close to a deal for the 2009 season. Troy Renck says Rusch wants his role clarified on the team before he signs the deal, but agrees that the deal is going to happen. Renck also reports that if Willy Taveras isn't traded he'll be non-tendered.

Rusch is going to be the swingman for the Rockies in 2009, so I'm not sure what he needs clarified. The money is nowhere near what Kip Wells was given last year, a good thing.

Patrick Saunders reports: Dan O'Dowd will look into a long-term deal with Ubaldo Jimenez once the new year comes around, but not for Chris Iannetta. The team wants to see what Iannetta can do in a full year as the starting catcher.

And Manny Corpas got his contract after a full season as the closer--whoops, that didn't happen. I think it's better to wait on long-term contracts for both.

In the last link, Dan O'Dowd has high praise for Seth Smith:

“He probably has the best swing mechanics of anybody on our team,” O’Dowd said. “I wouldn’t be shocked if he went out and hit 20 homers.”

And if he wins and keeps the job in left field. He'll face competition from Ian Stewart, who'll also receive som playing time at second, and Carlos Gonzalez, who'll compete at all three outfield positions.

The Rockies like Josh Bard, but with Yorvit Torrealba around. . . .
The Rockies might look to add Tim Redding from the Washington Nationals.

Redding was decent in 2003 and all right for the half a season he played in 2007, but other than that. . . . thanks, but no thanks.

The Mets are close to a three-yeal deal with Francisco Rodriguez.

Well, Brian Fuentes will have one less suitor if this deal goes down. Supposedly the Indians are interested in Fuentes. The downside on that is, the Rockies would receive the Indians' second-round pick since they have the 15th pick in the draft.

Reportedly, the Cubs and Padres are "very close" on a deal for Jake Peavy.

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Atkins....Posing or Serious

I’m having a hard time reading O’dowd on Atkins. It really sounds like O’Dowd is not really having any luck on trading Garrett, and expects to have him back, which creates a log jam in front of Stewart.

Now, the friend of a friend that I posted earlier if there was one thing he was really adamant and confident about, was the Rockies really, really wanted and expected to have Stewart starting at 3rd in 09.But now we have Stewie in LF, or at 2nd and NO rumors of current interest on Atkins.

So were the offers bad for Atkins? or were their really NO offers for him? I mean Garrett’s got a great natural swing. Not that great for power for a corner infielder, and his D is fair at best, and he’s hitting his plateau to decline years, but he’s still one of the better hitting 3rd basement in the Bigs. (which is more of slap at the surprisingly weak crop of current MLB thirdbasemen)

So is Garrett really going to be a Rockie in 09?

Thought Clint Hurdle should be fired before it was cool.

by Redhawk on Dec 9, 2008 9:13 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

I think the sense I get is that the Rockies were completely underwhelmed

By the offers or so thoroughly laughed off from their asking prices to end the conversation, and so we’ve been getting these stories about “waiting to see how Todd Helton’s back has recovered” which means they are hoping for a jackpot Spring Training trade, but not really planning on keeping Atkins. Basically, the theory goes that the Twins and Indians and Reds are going to go into camp and see that their options at third blow chunks, and that Garrett’s looking good, and they will be desperate enough to trade Kevin Slowey, Fausto Carmona or Johnny Cueto.

I’ve written about this before, but big trades in the Spring almost never happen, particularly late in Spring Training, so I think the team might not be acting in its best interest if they hold onto him past February but still expect to trade him before the season starts. I think if we still have him March 1, we may wind up keeping him into May or even June, but I’d expect to see him gone well before the July deadline.

by Rox Girl on Dec 9, 2008 9:29 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Jayson Stark

posed the thought that Minnesota, after losing out on Blake, could send Delmon Young to Tampa for one of their expendable starters (Edwin Jackson or Andy Sonnanstine) and then flip the pitching for Atkins. I would rather have Sonnanstine of the 2, but then again I’d also rather have one of the Twins pitchers.

by Hizilla on Dec 9, 2008 9:55 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

MLB Trade Rumors linked something the other day

Where a Tampa official completely dismissed the thought of Delmon returning. I don’t think Stark’s plan works out as well as he envisions.

by Rox Girl on Dec 9, 2008 10:08 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Which I realize is funny, since it was a link to Stark himself

Apparently his right hand doesn’t know what his left is doing.

by Rox Girl on Dec 9, 2008 10:09 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I imagine

that if Blake signs with the Dodgers the Atkins to Minnesota rumors will gain some steam again. O’Dowd kind of worries me with alot of the things he has said this fall. I don’t think either Atkins or Stewie have a ton of business playing anywhere but on the corners. Stewie didn’t start being his normal self until towards the end of the year when he was playing 3rd every day and comfortable. I can envision him playing out of position and having a similar effect that it did a few years back on Bill Hall (yes I know Stewart is a better player than Hall). I think if the team could get controllable pitching like a Perkins, a Blackubrn, a Sonnanstine for Atkinks that they should probably take it. I don’t disagree with waiting for Helton to show that he can play everyday again, but if the team could get something of use for Atkins that it should. If need be I think Hawpe could easily be shifted back to 1B, and it’s not like they don’t have plenty of bodies to stick into RF to play everyday and likely be productive (Gonzalez, Spilly, Smith).
I do imagine though if Garret were flipped for a 3/4/5 SP that the media backlash would be fairly comparable to the Holiday trade in that the general ignorant public (Yes I mean you Jim Armstrong) would see it as a salary dump and the Monforts giving away one of the teams star players. Anyway – those are my 2cents on Atkins.

by Hizilla on Dec 9, 2008 10:30 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Sonnanstine would at least be defensible to that sector of the media

He’s got a boatload of qualities that would buy him some time to prove himself to the ignorati.

2nd most wins for AL champs
2nd most IP
Playoff tested
Red Sox killerl
gritty athletic white guy

they’d eat that stuff up, and he’d at least get a Hamptonesque grace period.

by Rox Girl on Dec 9, 2008 11:04 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Trading Garrett

Let’s just assume for the moment that Garrett is moved. Probably for pitching. Just who becomes the Rock’s right-handed RBI bat? Tulo? not if you’ve got him in the 2 hole. And I’m not sure he sets up as a 4-5-6 hitter. Spilly? Maybe but that seems odd for someone who is being considered for the lead off spot. Seems like we’d be awfully weak from the right side.

by pedalpusher on Dec 9, 2008 3:36 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't forget CDI

Just because he’s a catcher doesn’t preclude him from the discussion of being an RBI oriented bat. Iannetta and Tulo would probably be expected to hold down the fort in that role until Fowler’s ready to hit leadoff or CarGon emerges, whichever happens sooner. Fowler’s ascent could push Spilly back to an RBI position, and Gonzalez is capable of being a bigger RBI threat than any of these others, including Atkins. Other darkhorse options would be if Barmes does the unlikely and hits like he did in 2008 again or Jeff Baker hits more consistently like the tears we’ve seen him go on. I guess the main point is that I don’t feel the Rockies would be lacking in this department without Atkins, or at least not for very long.

by Rox Girl on Dec 9, 2008 3:42 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I've got to disagree on offering commitments to Iannetta/Jimenez

Both fit into categories of central building blocks for contenders that makes them assets, whereas, say they were late inning relievers or backup outfielders, I’d scratch my head a little more. I suspect it might be more a matter of cost control for 2009 that keeps the Rockies from approaching Iannetta’s agent, though, more than “wanting to see what he does in a full year as starting catcher”, as there’s not a lot to dislike in his performance to date. An extended deal would imply a raise beyond the minimum for next season, and I think the team wants to pinch those extra pennies to spend on Alan Embree instead.

by Rox Girl on Dec 9, 2008 9:19 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

Maybe also seeing how Rosario does in Ashveille this year?

Before deciding how much to offer Iannetta or how many years of FA to buy out. The again, a controllable young catcher who can hit is always a monetizable asset.

Second half run?

by moomacher on Dec 9, 2008 10:25 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

And the Dodgers have begun

Not only are they getting Casey Blake, but also Mark Loretta! Scary Dodgers, scary.

by Rox Girl on Dec 9, 2008 11:12 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

Did McCourt have a lot of money invested

with Lehman Brothers or something? What’s with the sudden cheapness out of LA…

Second half run?

by moomacher on Dec 9, 2008 11:21 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

lol

Jiri Hudler...our underrated MVP

by TuLoRocks2008 on Dec 9, 2008 11:54 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I heard on Bloomberg Radio this morning...

That C.C. personally called Ned Colletti and said he wants to pitch in Dodger Stadium. Anyone seen this in any of the baseball related sites?

by Prospector on Dec 9, 2008 11:55 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Colletti said something of that sort yesterday to the media. ESPN had a story or something.

by Hizilla on Dec 9, 2008 11:56 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

yea i seen that also

he is also being wined n dined by the yankees and C C is just waiting to find somewhere near the $140 million that the yankees offered him….it seems like he does not want to play in New York though…he also said he doesn’t know if he can raise a family there.

Jiri Hudler...our underrated MVP

by TuLoRocks2008 on Dec 9, 2008 11:56 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

He actually said it face to face in Vegas according to Colletti

Which was reported in various locations yesterday. That would be a scary signing, but it’s putting the Dodgers under the gun to actually follow through and their money difficulties may be exposed because of it. I expect they’ll bid well under the Yankees offer, and perhaps under the Brewers offer as well ~~probably by offering a shorter term~~ to save face while hoping he doesn’t take them up on it. If they do sign him, there will be no further upgrades to their lineup, and their other pitcher acquisition will have to be of the John Garland lower tier caliber.

by Rox Girl on Dec 9, 2008 12:00 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

CC

CC really doesn’t want to play in NY, but there is still talk the players union may try to force him because the other offers might be so much less than what the Yanks offer.

If there’s one team that should be smart enough to not go after players who don’t think they would like NY its the Yankees. As great as CC is; he always seems to have a pretty fragile ego. The Yanks should probably cut and concentrate on A.J., but then again…they are the Yankees.

by brainteaser on Dec 9, 2008 12:04 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

yea there offering him so much more than everyone else

Yankees are treating him like he’s a god though. C.C is basically saying everything but no to N.Y. and playing there…they should cut there ties with C.C right now.

Jiri Hudler...our underrated MVP

by TuLoRocks2008 on Dec 9, 2008 12:07 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

So wait

if Taveras is non-tendered, does that mean he just becomes a FA?

by Resolution on Dec 9, 2008 11:28 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

I was hearing faintly from my friend that he see somewhere

Hawpe and a prospect for Ted Lilly? is this true..i doubt it but it wouldn’t be a bad deal since we have a TON of Outfielders but i seriously doubt it’s a rumor?

Lets Go Silver n Black!!

by TuLoRocks2008 on Dec 9, 2008 11:32 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

saw*

Lets Go Silver n Black!!

by TuLoRocks2008 on Dec 9, 2008 11:32 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Would make some sense to me

I haven’t seen it anywhere, but with the Cubs reportedly close to getting Peavy and desiring a Lefty RF that it wouldn’t be a terrible trade for either side.
I would sure miss Hawpe’s defense in RF though.

by Hizilla on Dec 9, 2008 11:43 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

yea there going after Abreu

right now but if they do not get him it looks like a trade that would make a lot of sense…and yes i would miss Hawpe a lot too….both Hawpe n Holliday gone in a matter of a month….crazyy

Lets Go Silver n Black!!

by TuLoRocks2008 on Dec 9, 2008 11:48 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Sounds like a one sided Chicago rumor...

And I don’t mean one-sided as in unfair, because it’s not that bad, but one-sided in its source. The Cubs have been coveting Hawpe for some time, but the Rockies have shown very little interest in dealing him. There’s a $6.5 million difference in the salaries between the two, so unless it was Lilly plus dollars, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense from what we’ve been seeing the Rockies do so far. That dollar difference also means that it wouldn’t likely include a prospect from the Rox unless the Cubs were picking up the full difference in salaries.

by Rox Girl on Dec 9, 2008 11:54 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

yea kinda figured it was only a chicago rumor..

my friend is living in chicago so i guess that’s what he has been hearing….yea it would only make complete sense if the Cubs do pick up the difference

Jiri Hudler...our underrated MVP

by TuLoRocks2008 on Dec 9, 2008 11:59 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I love Winter Meeting week

rumors flying rampant.

by Hizilla on Dec 9, 2008 11:55 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't buy it

The Rockies need his power from the left side; while there are capable fielders, the possibility of not having Hawpe and Atkins in the line-up doesn’t make sense right now. If Atkins were moved and some of the young of’s really crank you might see a deadline deal.

When Hawpe is made available, expect the Rangers to try and trump every deal in order to bring him to his hometown club.

by brainteaser on Dec 9, 2008 11:57 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Two things

First, the Cubs denied they were close to a deal on Peavy. They’re making it sound like the two sides were actually pretty far apart. Of course, it could all be part of the negotiating.

Second, supposedly Cleveland is close to signing Kerry Wood, which would mean they won’t sign Fuentes.

by holly96 on Dec 9, 2008 12:49 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

and K-rod offically signs wit Mets

Fuentes probably going to St. Louis

Jiri Hudler...our underrated MVP

by TuLoRocks2008 on Dec 9, 2008 1:12 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Or the Angels...

All other things equal, I imagine he’ll choose Anaheim (close to home, and a more likely contender). Good for him, though I never understood why they’ve taken the position that they’d not resign with us under any circumstance.

Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave

by Mondogarage on Dec 9, 2008 1:32 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

they have Arrendondo (idk how u spell it)

for future closer and probably won’t want to over pay for fuentes and spend money on other pieces they could use

Jiri Hudler...our underrated MVP

by TuLoRocks2008 on Dec 9, 2008 5:21 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Rockies might sign LHP Alan Embree

From my limited knowledge doesn’t look that bad

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/12/rockies-closing.html

The Fail boat is sinking

by rockiesfan4ever on Dec 9, 2008 2:20 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

There's also a link to this

Chicago Trib blog that the team’s discussed bringing back Henry Blanco, a move I could only see happening if we’re able to unload Yorvit on some poor saps this winter. Blanco would be a solid defensive complement to Iannetta, this would be a pretty decent move if it all comes together.

by Rox Girl on Dec 9, 2008 3:18 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Signing Embree

What does this do as far as bring back Rausch?

by pedalpusher on Dec 9, 2008 3:29 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

From the Rockies standpoint, nothing

But Glendon might not see the competition for innings the same way. I think the Rockies want Rusch as a long relief/swingman when a starter gets shelled or injured, and Embree as a go to middle reliever when they have the lead.

by Rox Girl on Dec 9, 2008 3:34 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh darn...

MLBTR is now saying that Livan’s not coming back. I say darn because this means I still might have to see him pitch frequently here in Cincy. I just don’t get the Reds sometimes.

by Rox Girl on Dec 9, 2008 3:13 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

And this is why you should never do drunk reporting

Apparently the source of this rumor heard that the Reds were getting a Hernandez and just wrote the name down wrong. Livan, Ramon, they’re similar, right?

by Rox Girl on Dec 9, 2008 4:01 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Rafael Furcal

I bet Furcal wishes he would have signed with the A’s now because according to Ken Rosenthal, his piece of the pie is getting chopped.

I wonder if the Rockies might think about him for 2B and leadoff? They might be able to get into the conversations now at bargin prices.

Nahhh.. the Rockies won’t do it….

by roxhead on Dec 9, 2008 4:18 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Eckstein

Further proof that Eckstein is completely done: He’s negotiating with the Pirates. With this, Pittsburgh solidifies its place, along with Kansas City and Baltimore, as a graveyard for washed up position players (and Matt Morris).

At least he’ll be nowhere near the Rockies. (Just kidding Rox Girl, except about the washed up part).

by deacs on Dec 9, 2008 4:28 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Hey... just watch, this pushes Pittsburgh over the top.

It’s clear that Eck was the last piece they needed. We’ve got next year’s Rays right there in Pittsburgh, PA.

Okay, maybe that’s stretching it a little, but I bet he’s more productive than Loretta in 2009.

by Rox Girl on Dec 9, 2008 4:35 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Let's Hope So

The Dodgers are looking old all of a sudden, and unless they get Furcal back, are going to have a low production 3B-SS-2B combo. Knoblauch could probably come back and be more productive than Loretta in ‘09. I don’t see a performance upgrade from Kent to Loretta, although I guess Loretta is less likely to get code reded inside the clubhouse.

by deacs on Dec 9, 2008 10:37 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Tim Redding

Ringolsby says a Taveras/Redding swap is close. I think this is favorable, although you have to wonder about a pitcher who the Washington Nationals are giving up on.

Redding had a good year in 2003, but has struggled to stay healthy since. If he can keep those homers down he could be useful.

by Roberbola on Dec 9, 2008 8:40 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Renck says this is dead - never mind

Geez these baseball writers are worse than the weatherman – they could post any story and never lose credibility.

Anyway, I liked the idea.

by Roberbola on Dec 9, 2008 8:53 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I liked/like it too

Let’s hope it revives in the next day or two. Redding’s a better bit of rotation insurance than Marquis would have been and fits the Monforts’ budget. At a cost of a player that doesn’t hold much value to the team anymore, it’s a good price for the innings he’d provide.

by Rox Girl on Dec 9, 2008 9:01 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

this link says the deal has fallen apart

because the Nationals also wanted CarGon.

http://hotstove.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/12/rockies_close_on_redding_acqui.html

by purplesocks on Dec 9, 2008 9:21 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

The Nats are lunatics, then.

Just because a guy’s your second best starter on one of the worst teams in the league doesn’t mean he should be valued as a #2 starter.

by Rox Girl on Dec 9, 2008 9:26 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

This is Jim Bowden

we’re talking about.

"Never Surrender Dreams" - Inscription on J. Michael Straczynski's bench

Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!

by Russ Oates on Dec 9, 2008 9:35 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

True...

It’s kind of weird how it’s getting reported from the two sides anyways, almost like Bowden thought the centerfielder under discussion was Gonzalez when O’Dowd was saying Taveras, and when Bowden realized who was actually being talked about panicked and pulled the plug.

by Rox Girl on Dec 9, 2008 9:41 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

And now we're back to the likelihood of Willy T being non-tendered

Unless something changes according to Ringolsby.

by Rox Girl on Dec 9, 2008 9:47 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

And Mike Rizzo, too.

He’s a sly bastard.

4/1/1983-11/27/2007 * RIP#21 * The Eternal Redskin

by DbacksSkins on Dec 9, 2008 9:59 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Apparently...

… no one told the baseball writers “what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.” The winter meeting rumor mill is worse than when panic strikes Wall Street.

by jefe_13 on Dec 9, 2008 10:06 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Barmes = 2B

Apparently Hurdle has named Barmes the starting 2B heading into Spring Training, in December. Bake could get some time at 1B, Stewie in LF? I don’t like the way this looks at all.

by Hizilla on Dec 9, 2008 8:44 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

It's sort of a devil's bargain at second either way...

I have a better appreciation of Barmes at second with Atkins at third as that leaves just one defensive liability out there. I just hope his bat wasn’t as fluky as all the numbers make it look last season. Still, not my preferred route, but in a lineup that has Spilly in center, that leaves just second as a hole on offense (assuming Atkins and Helton rebound) which is still well ahead of the curve in the NL so I’ll learn to live with it.

by Rox Girl on Dec 9, 2008 8:52 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

What's hilarious

Is how that story unfolds – we’ve got the “It’s not personal, it’s about personnel” quote from Hurdle (won’t be the last time we hear that, I guarantee you – it’s the new “We gotta slow the game down”!) and then the announcement that Hurdle’s binky will play everyday at second base.

Although, truthfully, I’m not sure there’s a better option out there in free agency, unless the Rox can sweeten a one-year deal enough to convince Mark Grudzielanek that his presence helps make them a contender. That’s the move I advocated for in my post on the subject over at my new blogging digs, Mile High City Sports – yes, I’ve come out of blogging retirement.

Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
MHCSports - Denver sports analysis from Denver sports fans

by Franchise26 on Dec 9, 2008 9:36 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Yay! Good to hear you've fallen off the wagon

Bad for your professional productivity, education and personal life, but Rockies fans benefit, so that’s all that matters.

by Rox Girl on Dec 9, 2008 9:43 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Ha ha

Well, the education is over with, and as far as a personal life goes, I’m living in small-town Wyoming right now, so there’s precious little of that to begin with. Which is why it made perfect sense to start writing again.

Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
MHCSports - Denver sports analysis from Denver sports fans

by Franchise26 on Dec 9, 2008 9:45 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

The grass must be greener

on the other side. Grudzielanek is the Answer? Wow. I’d much rather stick with Barmes. Let’s look at some of the other x-Rockie 2B floating around out there and how they performed in 2008… Belliard .287 AVG, .372 OBP, 11 HR, 46 RBI; Carroll, .277, .355, 1, 36; Matsui .293, .354, 6, 33; Miles .317, .355, 4, 31; Last season Barmes was .290, .322, 11, 44 vs Grud .299, .345, 3, 24. While Grud may be a career .290 hitter, he’s had plenty of .275 seasons. All of those numbers to say that Grud is certainly not the answer and no more promising than Barmes.

I would even prefer Barmes over someone like O-Dog (Hudson). With Clint back on track I’m looking for him to have an all-star calibur season barring any Big Game injuries sigh.

With Baker backing up Barmes and J Herrera in the pipeline, the only reason I’d bring in someone else is if we convinced someone like Furcal to play 2B, as he brings true speed to the lineup.

by jefe_13 on Dec 9, 2008 10:46 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Barmes/Grudz

Clint Barmes is a fine middle infielder with a good glove and moderate pop with absolutely no on-base skills and absolutely no ability to hit away from Coors Field. The notion that he is capable of an All-Star season simply does not compute – if he sniffs an All-Star Game in his career, I’ll join Al-Qaeda.

I think Barmes’ best fit on the Rockies is as a utility infielder off the bench. Since Colorado’s other in-house 2B options are a year or so away from big league impact (EY Jr., Nelson), I think Grudz makes the most sense as a one-year fill in who would play above average defense, hit for average, and steady the lower third of the batting order. I don’t like Hudson at four years if that’s what he wants, I don’t like Ray Durham since he can barely handle the position defensively, and I don’t like Felipe Lopez for the money he’ll command after 150 good at-bats with the Redbirds last year. Therefore, Grudz.

Clint Barmes OPS+, 2008: 99
Mark Grudzielanek OPS+, 2008: 100

Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
MHCSports - Denver sports analysis from Denver sports fans

by Franchise26 on Dec 9, 2008 11:33 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs