Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Leandro Damiao Is Still Really Good

Saturday Morning Rockpile:

With Brian Fuentes' arbitration case being settled yesterday, the Rockies 2008 player payroll settles right around the $67 million mark (very unofficial estimate) which is nearly 25% higher than the 2007 payroll and brings us right in line with where the payroll was in 2003. Let's hope our return on that investment is a little better this time around. The team's estimates heading into the winter were for $70 million in payroll, so I'm sure the beancounters are happy that we wound up on the low side there.

What does this all mean? From a midseason trade perspective, there is some positive potential here. The Rockies certainly seem able to keep Fuentes for the entire season if need be, either he or Atkins would have been at a much higher risk of being shipped out in a salary purge if the total was too far over that seventy figure. That keeps some leverage on our side should a trade happen, however that's something I'm seeing as less of a possibility after yesterday's ruling.

----------------

San Diego's team number-crunchers have decided they're the favorites, and this reporter goes into details why, which amount to solid pitching and a better than they look offense. The second part is mostly true, everybody who's not really paying attention underrates the Padres offensively. The first part is more dubious though

Starting pitchers Jake Peavy and Chris Young, at ages 26 and 27, are entering a pitcher's typical prime years - one season after Peavy won the Cy Young Award in a unanimous vote and Young approached August with a 1.82 ERA. Behind them is a veteran cast of starters led by Greg Maddux, the nutty professor who even at 41 is a solid bet to deliver close to 200 innings and a solid ERA. Behind them is a bullpen that Towers said should be as good or better than last year's, which led the NL in ERA.

That veteran cast at the back of their rotation is where the Padres downfall will lie in 2008. Peavy will be one of baseball's best pitchers again; Young might not be as good as he's been the last two seasons but he'll still be well above average; but then you get to Maddux, who's seen his average IP/start drop from 6.42 in 2005 to 5.8 last season, and every indication suggests the downhill slide will continue this year. Randy Wolf is neither healthy or good and Mark Prior won't be pitching until late May at the earliest and isn't a very safe bet to be effective when he does return. The three of them combined could be lucky to get 300 IP this season, and that's where you start to get into some major issues.

If Peavy and Young can combine for 440 innings, and that's being very generous to Young in making that assumption, the Padres will still be left with a good 250 starter innings or so that they'll need to divvy up between Justin Germano, Clay Hensley, Jack Cassell and Wade LeBlanc. The first three are weak-stuff command specialists that get in trouble once MLB hitters get used to them. Germano hasn't been quite exposed like Cassell and Hensley have, but he will. LeBlanc's a bit different, he's better and a more legit MLB arm, but he might not be ready this year. In short, none of the four are safe bets to be league average in 2008.

Given the track records of Wolf and Prior and the decline of Maddux, I just see a lot of potential here for more than half of San Diego's starts to be below league average in quality, despite the presence of Peavy and Young at the top of their rotation. At that point, they'll have to rely on their offense and bullpen to save them, and unlike the Giants, the Padres offense certainly could, but there are several issues in the batting/fielding department as well, and once injuries start to take a toll, you'll see San Diego fall further off the pace of the other three NL West leaders.

One area where the Padres traditionally do very well, however, is in assessing their needs mid-season and getting the help they need without giving up anything of value. If that trend continues this year, maybe they will find a way to hang around all season, but right now I'm not a believer.

Comment 62 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Score!
Opening Day, Section 147!

150 freakin' dollars, but I had stashed year-end bonus money just for today so it's ok. Can't wait!

Anybody else get tickets?

2007 National League Champions, baby!

by rockhead on Feb 16, 2008 10:43 AM MST reply actions  

I Did
I wasn't as lucky as you but I got section 313. I also got tickets in 159 for Sunday, they day they get their NL Champion Rings! This is going to be a great year.
GO ROCKIES!!! JFK

by jrockies on Feb 16, 2008 11:02 AM MST up reply actions  

I am in Sec 130 for Opening Day
and Section 141 for the game on Sunday.  This will be my 13th Rockies Opening Day, and it can not get here soon enough.

by Prospector on Feb 16, 2008 4:00 PM MST up reply actions  

No Opening Day tix for me :(
But I'm going on the 7th against the Braves, Section 155 Row 7! Also got games in May and June for now.
Every day is a Holliday!

by free7694 on Feb 16, 2008 12:39 PM MST up reply actions  

Bummer
I don't know how I got so lucky. But hey, you've got a great game early on to look forward to! Should be an exciting year for our Rox!
2007 National League Champions, baby!

by rockhead on Feb 16, 2008 1:37 PM MST up reply actions  

I hate you all
I won't have the chance to go to a game until the middle of May (16th onwards). I'll have to go to Mets games to get my baseball fix, and while they are tolerably inoffensive, it is not enough.

by Silverblood on Feb 16, 2008 1:42 PM MST up reply actions  

Think of it this way,
you can say you went to Shea in its last year of existence.
"Don't give up the ship!" - Capt. James Lawrence

by Russ Oates on Feb 16, 2008 2:09 PM MST up reply actions  

I'm jealous too..
I have never been to a Home Opener, although I usually make it to the last game of the season. My dad is trying to talk me into buying a 15 game package with him. The package is a good deal, but it's still $500 bucks a person for decent seats.
There's only one Rocktober!!

by Charlie77 on Feb 16, 2008 4:00 PM MST up reply actions  

I'm definitely excited
I've always had a soft spot for the Braves because I have a lot of family in Atlanta, so I try to see them when they come.
Every day is a Holliday!

by free7694 on Feb 16, 2008 1:57 PM MST up reply actions  

Also...
the only two years before this I missed Opening Day were 1995 and 2007, and we all know what else those seasons had in common. :)
Every day is a Holliday!

by free7694 on Feb 16, 2008 1:58 PM MST up reply actions  

No Opening Day Tix
for me either.  I did get a Coors Guys night out package, (every Tuesday night game 12 for $149, plus 2 FREE Coors Beers EACH game) and a "Seniors Package" (6 games for $99!)...even though I'm a long way from being a "Senior" but that's 20 games or 40 tickets...for $ 250!

I was going to get a mini-plan..but no post season priority so not much point in that, and only 2 had opening day tickets in the plan (the 2 25 ticket packages)

No opening day...but I really don't care (much).  That's a cluster f(*$ anyway, and way too much money.  I'm just happy to have baseball tickets!  I can almost smell spring!

I miss Kaz! He really could Rock-a-Rhyme, even if it was Tricky

by Redhawk on Feb 16, 2008 4:04 PM MST up reply actions  

I finally
get to go to my first Opening Day this year :D . We have Fri/Sat tix, all upper deck.  Fri is behind home plate, Sat is up the 1st base line a bit (I'm not sure of the exact seats, I didn't buy the tix directly).

by oo_nrb on Feb 16, 2008 11:35 PM MST up reply actions  

Holliday
They talk about how good the Padres are going to be but they end the article mentioning Holliday never touching home plate. Get over it and good luck getting to that point this year.
GO ROCKIES!!! JFK

by jrockies on Feb 16, 2008 11:08 AM MST reply actions  

In the words of Ron Burgandy...
"Go F*** yourself, San Diego."
It's amazing how much free time I have during the off-season.

by jcd823 on Feb 16, 2008 2:25 PM MST up reply actions  

Padres, looking towards 2009...
I am not afraid of the Pads, they are this year's version of the 2007 LA Dodgers. Good pitching with an older lineup hoping to compete before injuries break them down. They have Adrian Gonzalez and then a bunch of AARP members. Usually I am a big fan of San Diego, and their stadium is one of the most beautiful in baseball. However, this year they are starting over with a new outfield, second baseman and wishfull hoping that 3rd and SS will finally develop.
There's only one Rocktober!!

by Charlie77 on Feb 16, 2008 4:08 PM MST up reply actions  

Padres
I've learned to never bet against the Padres.  Every year, they don't look that great to me on paper and every year they seem to compete for the division title.  

My guess is that the Padres, Rockies, D'Backs and Dodgers are within 4 games of each other when the season ends--you can speculate which one will come out on top, but let's face it, circumstances that cannot be predicted at this point (injurires, luck, midseason trades) will be enough to make up whatever little difference there is among the teams at this point.  If nothing else, I predict another great divisional race.

by DenverBears on Feb 16, 2008 12:31 PM MST reply actions  

This is a wise and level-headed response
There is so much randomness in baseball, truly anything can happen.  All the predicting and modeling starts to look silly when you realize this is the game of inches we are talking about.

by Roberbola on Feb 16, 2008 2:30 PM MST up reply actions  

funny....
just after I posted this, I noticed the PECOTA projections from Baseball Prospectus.  They have the D'Backs winning the division with 86 wins, the Rockies fourth with 82 wins....just like I said 4 teams within 4 games...must be within the error of any projection--in other words it is wide open.

by DenverBears on Feb 16, 2008 2:33 PM MST up reply actions  

Barmes....
According to one analysis, the best fielding SS in the majors from 2002 to 2005 was.....Clint Barmes.

http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/10647918

by DenverBears on Feb 16, 2008 1:01 PM MST reply actions  

We know he can field
What we don't know is if he can ever hit worth a crap again.

by Silverblood on Feb 16, 2008 1:14 PM MST up reply actions  

maybe we should

give him some bison meat to drop maybe that will reverse the curse on him
At least the broncos dont totally suck

by roxfan4life on Feb 16, 2008 1:55 PM MST up reply actions  

I agree that....
we knew he could field, but the best SS?  If true, he should have some real value to some team somewhere---think Adam Everett--or even as a light hitting/good glove second baseman (not that we don't have another one of those already).

by DenverBears on Feb 16, 2008 2:36 PM MST up reply actions  

Surprised?
I am not at all surprised by this statement. In fact I would have been saying that as well. He never had a problem fielding, it was the hitting after he fell down the stairs that hurt him. Now it is true the Rox DO have the best fielding shortstop in the majors, even if some people will not admit it and give him a gold glove. Nix has been speculated to be the best defensive second baseman in the game and having the two of them would be amazing. If Barmes takes the second base job the combination will still be outstanding. Let's get the season started.
GO ROCKIES!!! JFK

by jrockies on Feb 16, 2008 5:08 PM MST up reply actions  

surprised...
that he comes out as a good fielder...no

that he comes out as the best fielder...yes.

Do we really believe that he is better than everybody else?  I didn't think so, but it certainly is possible that I am wrong.

by DenverBears on Feb 17, 2008 11:26 AM MST up reply actions  

Be careful with this
It's commonly assumed that because somebody's a great shortstop, that they'll also be great at second base. While it's typically true that the best shortstops are also very good second basemen, the added skill of the pivot on DP balls as well as the quirky throwing angles on plays to the player's left make the transition more difficult than it would seem sometimes. Nix is outstanding at the pivot, Barmes is pretty good but not quite up to his or Quintanilla's level.

by Rox Girl on Feb 17, 2008 11:35 AM MST up reply actions  

THE WORLD CHAMPION A'S OF THE EARLY 70'S...
used a rotation of 3 Second basemen.  Andrews and Green plus a hitter. Sometimes they started Andrews and pinched hit for him every at bat and sent others out to play def.  Rox: Baker rh bat...Stewart lh bat..Barmes Def. with Nix and Quintinilla (sp?) in the wings or some 3 man rotation of these 5.  Of course some stud rising to the top of this group would be preferable.
92 in 08

by 86 wins in 07 on Feb 16, 2008 2:42 PM MST reply actions  

I like this....
Given the players the Rox potentially have in place, there is a good opportunity to get creative--although I wouldn't consider Hurdle's creativity one of his strong suits.

You've got Barmes/Nix---good glove/questionable bats; a number of decent pinch hit possibilities and some potential stop-gap defensive fillers at 2B.  You could bat the 2B 8th, which for home games, that gives you 2-3 innings of a stud fielder before you think about pinch hitting.  If the 2B slot comes up in a key situation, you don't think twice about using a ph, since you have another stud fielder to replace him.  Granted, this uses a lot of roster spots and bench flexibility, but it would be fun to see.

by DenverBears on Feb 16, 2008 3:05 PM MST up reply actions  

TIX
I think I am going to all 3 games in KC this year. First time they have been to KC since I moved here.
Die-hard Rockies fan. On the bandwagon since 7/6/93. Not giving up my seat. EVER! rockiesfan4ever reffered you

by rockiesfan4ever on Feb 16, 2008 2:56 PM MST reply actions  

Ugh
Royals series.... bad flashbacks...

Let's hope this one goes better than that one.

by Silverblood on Feb 16, 2008 10:44 PM MST up reply actions  

I'm pretty lucky
that I'm seeing the Rockies much earlier than last year as they're going to be in Houston in April. If Fuentes comes in and gives up anything in any of those games, I'm going to die in freakin Minute Maid Park.

by A.J. Haefele on Feb 16, 2008 7:50 PM MST reply actions  

Padres are pretty good
But I have them as the 2nd best team in the NL West in 2008.

ZIPS 2008 Simulator likely win totals:
My simulator ran 25 seasons for each team based on 2008 schedule.

LAD: 85.88
SD: 82.70
ARI: 82.36
COL: 81.68
SF: 75.16

Of course if Juan Pierre and Nomar get lots of playing time then all bets are off. :)

vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on Feb 16, 2008 10:01 PM MST reply actions  

Hmm
Funny how the Dodgers keep coming out on top of these things...

by Silverblood on Feb 16, 2008 10:05 PM MST up reply actions  

Well,
it had the Red Sox coming out on top in last years pre-season sim.  We all know how that turned out. :)

vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on Feb 16, 2008 10:14 PM MST up reply actions  

So basically...
If a team has a full roster of old ball players on the verge of injury your predictions rank them #1?
There's only one Rocktober!!

by Charlie77 on Feb 16, 2008 11:40 PM MST up reply actions  

well, not quite
2008 ZIPS are plugged into the simulator.  It has the division favorites as...

2008
NL West: LAD
NL Central: Cubs/Reds/Brewers (Toss up)
NL East: NYM
AL West: LAA
AL Central: DET
AL East: NYY

vr, Xeifrank

by Xeifrank on Feb 16, 2008 11:53 PM MST up reply actions  

Just stop with the Red Sox
Coming out on top thing as a measure of some sort of skill on your part. You had them win via a single elimination bracket -mimicking college basketball- wherein they were given the number one seed and not a true simulation of baseball's 162 game season. In other words it was a completely random coincidence and not a true measure of the accuracy of your sim program. Who did you have win your midseason sim? Where were the National League champions in your preseason predictions?

Pointing to that is just like me pointing to my 89-73 projection for the Rockies last year and saying how smart I am for getting it so close to being right (if it weren't for the play-in game) when in fact I know, and everybody else should know that it was just a lot of luck that the events of the season would unfold that way. There's so much that's variable that you me or nobody else can project for certain the position of any of these teams when they are that close to each other.

We'll see if you're luckier with your Rockies sim this year, but if we do wind up in fourth place like you say, it has little to do with the strength of your simulator.

by Rox Girl on Feb 17, 2008 6:00 AM MST up reply actions  

Rockies 25 man roster
Anyone who closely follows the team, care to give me the Rockies most likely 25 man roster, for the start of the season?

vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on Feb 16, 2008 10:16 PM MST reply actions  

Roster
  1. P Jeff Francis
  2. P Aaron Cook
  3. P Jason Hirsh
  4. P Ubaldo Jimenez
  5. P Franklin Morales
  6. P Manny Corpas
  7. P Brian Fuentes
  8. P Taylor Buchholz
  9. P Kip Wells
  10. P Ryan Speier
  11. P Josh Towers
  12. P Matt Herges
  13. C Yorvit Torrealba
  14. C Chris Iannetta
  15. 3B Garrett Atkins
  16. 2B Jayson Nix
  17. SS Troy Tulowitzki
  18. 1B Todd Helton
  19. RF Brad Hawpe
  20. CF Willy Taveras
  21. LF Matt Holliday
  22. OF Ryan Spilborghs
  23. IF/OF Jeff Baker
  24. OF Seth Smith (or Cory Sullivan/Scott Podsednik)
  25. IF Ian Stewart (or Clint Barmes)
There will be minor changes, depending on which of Smith, Sully, or Podsednik wins the second backup outfielder spot behind Spilly, and if Stewart or Barmes wins the second backup infielder job. But that should be close.

by Silverblood on Feb 16, 2008 10:40 PM MST up reply actions  

Middle infield spots
If Barmes and Giles are left off the team, then who backs up at 2B and SS?  Barmes can play both middle infield spots and Giles can play 2B.  I don't see any other backups for MI on your list.
Quintanilla could be another option I suppose. Thoughts?
vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on Feb 16, 2008 11:35 PM MST up reply actions  

You forgot Vizcaino...
He'll certainly be in the 7th-8th inning mix, so I'd probably delete Towers or Speier.

Otherwise, I think you've got it just about right.

by alexcolfax on Feb 16, 2008 11:53 PM MST up reply actions  

My Roster Picks
SP
Francis
Cook
Jimenez
Hirsh
Towers

RP
Corpas CL
Fuentes
Viscaino
Herges
Bucholtz
Redman (or Wells)
Speier

Lineup
Taveras       CF
Tulowitzki  SS
Holliday      LF
Helton        1B
Atkins         3B
Hawpe        RF
Torrealba   C
Nix              2B

Bench
Barmes (IF/OF)
Baker    (IF/OF)
Spilborghs (OF)
Podsednik (Smith or Sullivan)
Iannetta  (C)

Smith and Stewart go back to Colorado Springs to get consistent at bats and Morales will go to get a few more innings, and if an injury occurs, which is likely, they will be the first called up.

GO ROCKIES!!! JFK

by jrockies on Feb 17, 2008 12:16 AM MST up reply actions  

Yeah this is about right
I don't think Towers gets the #5 spot in the rotation, but it could be anyone.  This might end up Morales spot by default.  I'm just not fired up for the other 3 (Wells, Towers, Redman) and Redman looked ok (barely) as a lefty/long relief guy out of the pen in 07.  If I had to really guess, I'd say we break with 11 pitchers for April with Redman being the #5 guy if we need him, then Morales getting called back up if he was sold in his AAA starts

Last OF is a 3 way toss up between Smith, Sullivan, and Podsednick....I think Pods wins cause of the veteran factor, and the speed factor. Though I'd rather have Smith as a lefty PH off the bench. Pods has to hit in spring training or he's gone. (again, if I had to say, we break camp with 2 of these 3...then one goes down/or out when we need the 12th pitcher.

Last bench position player will be Barmes or Quintenilla.  We have to have a back up SS.  These are the only 2 we have.  Barmes should get the nod over Q.

Stewart goes back to AAA, just no spot to play regularly in the show and that's what he needs now.

I miss Kaz! He really could Rock-a-Rhyme, even if it was Tricky

by Redhawk on Feb 17, 2008 12:57 PM MST up reply actions  

There's no way..
..the Rockies break camp with 11 pitchers.  They have a hectic schedule to begin the season (28 games in 29 days starting April 2nd) and will likely opt to go with a full 12-man staff.

by malakian on Feb 17, 2008 2:23 PM MST up reply actions  

when are we gonna have tulo projections?
Like the ones we had with holliday? cause i think we need some. http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/feb/16/sense-unfinished-business-haunts-rockies/

good article, sorry if it has been posted already

At least the broncos dont totally suck

by roxfan4life on Feb 16, 2008 10:40 PM MST reply actions  

Simulators
I am really sick of this use of sim engines to project the season.  Theoretically, it shouldn't be that bad, but in practice, all it does is introduce additional sources of error (the quality of the simulator and the assumptions about player usage required to run it).  And there's really no reason to think that there's anything a sim will capture that a simpler, more transparent method (calculating projected WAR for every player) will not.  (Besides, even a perfect simulation engine is only as good as the projections fed into it, and ZiPS isn't very good).

"Pointing to that is just like me pointing to my 89-73 projection for the Rockies last year and saying how smart I am for getting it so close to being right (if it weren't for the play-in game) when in fact I know, and everybody else should know that it was just a lot of luck that the events of the season would unfold that way. There's so much that's variable that you me or nobody else can project for certain the position of any of these teams when they are that close to each other."

Well said.  At the very least, anyone pointing to past results to validate their system should have a semi-meaningful sample.  I've got that - my 2007 projected standings turned out to be the best in the business, despite of course missing badly on our Rockies - but it's still nowhere near as strong as the method-based argument is.

Onto the more interesting topic here, the Padres' rotation:

"In short, none of the four are safe bets to be league average in 2008."

So what?  The average team has only 2.5 starters who are "safe bets to be league average."  The fact that the Padres #4-8 options on the SP depth chart aren't exciting doesn't mean that they're particularly vulnerable in that area, it just means that they shouldn't be expected to win 95 games or something similarly ridiculous.

Put another way, here's the average projected ERC for NL starting pitchers, by rotation slot:
#1: 3.45
#2: 4.03
#3: 4.36
#4: 4.59
#5: 4.97

The Padres are obviously likely to beat the NL averages in the #1 and 2 spots.  Maddux will beat the #3 starter average unless he falls off a cliff, and while that's certainly possible, it goes without saying that falling off a cliff is never a "safe bet".  As for the #4 and 5 spots: the Padres' options are the following (ERC projection in parentheses): Germano (4.62), Wolf (4.82), Enrique Gonzalez (4.53), and Wilfredo Ledezma (5.06).  Is that ugly?  Sure.  But it's precisely what a normal back of the rotation looks like.  And in a division with no really dominant team, getting merely average results out of the back of the rotation isn't going to knock them off the pace.

by Heltonfan on Feb 17, 2008 8:53 AM MST reply actions  

Plainly I see the chances of that cliff
being hit for Maddux as a lot higher than you do and I really doubt he beats the #3 starter average. In fact, as far as I can tell, he's the single most at risk starter in the division to have a massive drop-off in value unless you're counting Morales' short stint with the Rockies, but Morales at the same time has a lot better chance at keeping his value at least fairly high (just to make it clear, I'm not saying that he'll keep on producing like last season). I think the back of that rotation becomes uglier in the face of the instability created by Maddux as if he drops to #5 starter quality, somebody else needs to be asked to step up and I just don't see it happening. Germano and Gonzalez' projections certainly seem better than I think they should be.
While I think the Padres will hang around all year even with these weaknesses -sort of like how I see the Rockies for 2008, actually- I don't currently see them having the legs for the stretch run right now. Once again, I like the profiles of the players we'll be adding as the season progresses a lot more, with the exception of Antonelli.

Like I said in the post though, if there's anything Kevin Towers has proven over the last five seasons is an ability to identify his team needs midstream and get what he needs for dirt cheap. For this alone I'm not counting them out but my main contention is that they certainly should not be considered the favorites in the division. That distinction has to go to LA or Arizona, depending on how for real you think the D-backs players are.

by Rox Girl on Feb 17, 2008 10:41 AM MST up reply actions  

Maddux
Is there some red flag in Maddux's performance record that I'm missing?  Aside from the fact that he's in his 40s, is there any reason to expect a significant decline?  Put another way: it's hard not to be at least close to league-average when you only walk 4-5% of batters faced and have a good groundball rate.  And I have a hard time believing that Maddux's control is going to suddenly desert him. The guy is a master of his craft.

Germano and Gonzalez's projections are right in line with their '05-'07 numbers.  If you're expecting a couple 26-year-olds to fall well short of their three-year averages, that's just... weird.

by Heltonfan on Feb 17, 2008 1:08 PM MST up reply actions  

Maddux collapsing?
I don't see him collapsing either. He hasn't won fewer than 13 games in a season since 1987. That is due to control pitching and not power. Sure he is not the guy who won 19-20 games a season in the early to mid 90s but he still gets the job done. The park he is currently pitching in helps as well. If he does falter this year it will be great for the Rockies but I wouldn't count on it.
GO ROCKIES!!! JFK

by jrockies on Feb 17, 2008 1:28 PM MST up reply actions  

Signs that a slow erosion with Maddux
have been accelerating:

Average 2 seam FB velocity:
Chicago Cubs 2004: 88 mph
Los Angeles Dodgers 2006: 86.5 mph
San Diego Padres 2007: 85.3 mph

I think Maddux threw just two or three pitches over ninety MPH last season, easily the lowest totals of his career.

which leads to...

BABIP:

  1. .291
  2. .288
  3. .286
  4. .290
  5. .294
  6. .296
  7. .311
It's way out of line from his usual and it isn't good for a GB pitcher at PETCO. There's a tipping point where pitches no longer become effective.

Percentage of games started, 7 IP or more:

  1. 41.7%
  2. 39.4%
  3. 31.4%
  4. 32.4%
  5. 17.6%
Percentage 5 IP or less:
  1. 27.8%
  2. 12.1%
  3. 22.9%
  4. 14.7%
  5. 26.5%
Just five years of this doesn't show it as much, but the trend is definitely toward a much higher percentage of bad starts. He's not getting younger, the signs of fatigue that the 7IP or more start% shows will show up earlier in games this year.

OPS allowed, innings 4-6

  1. .627
  2. .715
  3. .783
  4. .792
  5. .699
OPS allowed, innings 7-9
  1. .760
  2. .518
  3. .593
  4. .773
  5. 1.018
That last number is absolutely brutal, especially for his homepark and those in-game collapses are going to be creeping into earlier innings. I really think you're going to see major trouble from the fourth inning on for Maddux this year. The article I linked above said that Maddux was good for nearly two-hundred innings. If the Padres use him that much, the rest of the division will be absolutely thrilled.

by Rox Girl on Feb 17, 2008 4:34 PM MST up reply actions  

Germano and Gonzalez
You've got way too much confidence in your MLE's on those two if your 2005-2007 data indicates they are capable being #4 starter level. Too much of their experience in that time frame was spent against inferior hitters and I'm betting that's skewing the data. Given the quality of their pitches, they aren't ever going to be better than #5 starters, and they're not going to be very good #5's at that. I like Germano's chances at proving me wrong more, I see Gonzalez as a AAAA player.

by Rox Girl on Feb 17, 2008 4:59 PM MST up reply actions  

Pads pitchers
Re: Maddux: trends are a horrible way to do analysis.  This is pretty basic logic.  If you expect a downward trend to continue, you're effectively penalizing a player for having been good in the past.  It's nonsense.

Germano and Gonzalez: it's not just MLEs.  It's the fact that Germano's MLEs are right in line with his big league performance, and Gonzalez's big league performance was actually better than his MLEs.  You're up against every statistical indicator imaginable here.

by Heltonfan on Feb 17, 2008 8:38 PM MST up reply actions  

Maddux
To further elaborate on Maddux: keep in mind that my projection already has him declining by almost half a run from his 2007 FIP.  So merely pointing out that he's likely to significantly decline isn't good enough.  At the very least, we would need to know that Maddux's yearly progression in the numbers you quoted is abnormal.  We can talk ourselves into any inane conclusion imaginable if we don't have a proper baseline to compare things to.  In other words, neither you or I have any clue what your numbers mean.

You've got signs that his slow erosion has been accelerating.  Which is great.  But your whole argument is based on the assumption that "has been accelerating" = "will continue to accelerate", and I don't see any way, logical or statistical, to support that assumption.  It goes against everything we know about the value of multi-year weighted averages.

And that ugly situational split (OPS against in the 7th inning on) is based on a whopping 50 PA.  Come on.

by Heltonfan on Feb 17, 2008 9:08 PM MST up reply actions  

Sample size
But how well can we really project stats for a 41 year old pitcher?  I'd be much more inclined to look at trends than the multi-year weighted averages of 41 year old pitchers.  Isn't there a "break-down" factor that needs to be incorporated at some point?

by Roberbola on Feb 17, 2008 9:54 PM MST up reply actions  

Aging patterns
"Isn't there a "break-down" factor that needs to be incorporated at some point?"

Of course.  That's why we incorporate aging patterns.  But that's very different from looking at trends.

by Heltonfan on Feb 17, 2008 11:18 PM MST up reply actions  

Stathead argument...
There's a problem with your argument, looking at stats alone ignores the physical factors of the game. By breaking down earlier in the game it puts an emphasis on Maddux to push harder from the beginning on. Pitching is an artistry of control and acceleration. If one pitch is off kilter then it affects the way the pitcher approaches the hitters, and the way hitters approach the pitcher. Eventually the pitcher pushes too hard to get his trouble pitch acrossed the plate and his arm breaks down.

Last year both Trevor Hoffman and Curt Schilling were affected by the velocity of their fastball dropping to levels too close to the speed of their changeups. Suddenly the Brad Hawpes of the world are jacking homers all over Fenway and Tony Gwynn JR's are slicing game winning triples because they can sit on the fastball and get a two for one pitch.

There's only one Rocktober!!

by Charlie77 on Feb 17, 2008 9:55 PM MST up reply actions  

Strange examples
Given that Hoffman and Schilling's 2007 performance wasn't any worse than their '05-'06, I don't see the point here...

by Heltonfan on Feb 17, 2008 11:20 PM MST up reply actions  

Haven't you heard..
Schilling is out for the season and possibly his career with a shoulder injury and Hoffman blew his last two saves of the season. Both turned out to be pretty good situations for the Rockies. Who knows if Trevor will recover this year.
There's only one Rocktober!!

by Charlie77 on Feb 17, 2008 11:38 PM MST up reply actions  

Have you seen the lines of other 40+ year olds?
If you look at their 76-100 pitch splits, the 7-9 inning numbers, they don't survive for longer than a season after a late-game spike like Maddux (or Jamie Moyer for that matter) had last season. They simply don't show late inning deteriorations like that until they are at the end of their careers.

These numbers show that it's taking Greg every ounce of effort just to reach the mid-80's on his fastball and that he can only sustain that for about 75 pitches. You complain about the 50 PA sample, but the fact that the sample is so small compared to the rest of his career tells me that this is exactly what's happening. Do you think San Diego doesn't want more than 75 pitches per start from one of the greatest pitchers of all time? There were no stories of shoulder problems for him, nothing to indicate that this was due to anything other than age related deterioration of his pitching arm. There is absolutely nothing that your three year averages with a "normal aging pattern" will do to stop that deterioration from happening at the pace that it's going. The averages can't go against the laws of physiology and to suggest that they can, that's inane.

This is another one that we'll have to step aside and see how it comes out because we're clearly in a wide gulf of disagreement. I'm pretty confident in saying that he loses about a run from his 2007 FIP (3.56 according to THT) and I think he's capable of losing even more. I'll give you anything less than .8 as a sign that I don't know what I'm talking about.

by Rox Girl on Feb 18, 2008 5:19 AM MST up reply actions  

Sims
Some good points about simulators, alot of it depends on how good the simulator/model is and how good the projections used are.

Simulations or Monte Carlo methods if done correctly can give you a more accurate measure of how strong baseball teams are.  There is no mathematical equation (that i know of) that can determine the win expectancy of a game, there are just way too many variables.  Metrics like WAR or Log5 can approximate it, but they also have flaws that you are railing against.  WAR uses projections and assumptions about defense, base running and aging.

Why do some of the most respected sabermetricians use simulators?  They must be important.  Read the recent stuff at USSM or Book Blog for examples.

Thanks for the comments.

vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on Feb 17, 2008 10:19 AM MST reply actions  

Re: Sims
"There is no mathematical equation (that I know of) that can determine the win expectancy of a game, there are just way too many variables."

Sure.  But we don't need to work with win expectancy in order to determine team quality.

"Why do some of the most respected sabermetricians use simulators?"

Because they're fun, and because they're great for evaluating in-game strategy.

But they're not the right tool for what we're doing here.  And (warning: elitist rant ahead) when used for this purpose, they dumb down the discourse within the sabermetric community.  The typical sabermetrically-inclined fan would be much better served to be told "Player A is 20 runs per year better than Player B, and here is why, and that works out to 2 wins per year, and here is why" than to be told "When I replace Player B with Player A, for 25 simulated seasons, the team improves by an average of 2 games" (with no real explanation of why that is).  Sort of a variation on the give a man a fish / teach a man to fish thing.  A simulator is an opaque tool the likes of which hardly anyone has the time or knowledge to create.  But any halfway intelligent person can put together a WAR spreadsheet in 10 minutes.  Good sabermetrics is a hell of a lot simpler than most people think it is, and by hiding behind needlessly impenetrable methods, we do the community a disservice.

by Heltonfan on Feb 17, 2008 1:09 PM MST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about the Colorado Rockies, established 28 April 2005.

Community Guidelines
RockiesRoster.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Getattachment_small
# 2 Tulo ...
Rockieshat1_small
Purple Row Cares: In memory of Thomas Harding's son
Small
On Addiction and Major League Baseball
Paul_by_jerichasmall_small
PRMLB February Thread
Small
Musical Analysis of Baseball
Rockies1_small
2012 Projected Opening Day Payroll
2009__1_small
Opening Day & Fireworks Tickets
Img_1229_small
PRMLB: The January Thread
Avatar_small
Off Season Picture Time
Happy-face_small
Taking Out The Trash (And How Michael Cuddyer Can Help Us Do It)

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Colorado Sports Blogs

Mile High Report (Denver Broncos)
Mile High Hockey (Colorado Avalanche)
Denver Stiffs (Denver Nuggets)
Burgundy Wave (Colorado Rapids)
The Ralphie Report (CU Buffaloes)
SB Nation Denver

Top 30 PuRPs

  1. Drew Pomeranz, LHP - AA/MLB
  2. Nolan Arenado, 3B - A (Adv)
  3. Wilin Rosario, C - AA/MLB
  4. Chad Bettis, RHP - A (Adv)
  5. Tyler Matzek, A (Adv), A
  6. Alex White, AA/MLB
  7. Kyle Parker, OF - A
  8. Tim Wheeler, OF - AA
  9. Josh Rutledge, SS - A (Adv)
  10. Charlie Blackmon, OF - MLB
  11. Rosell Herrera, SS/3B - Rookie
  12. Trevor Story, SS/3B - Rookie
  13. Edwar Cabrera, LHP - A (Adv)
  14. Tyler Anderson, LHP - unassigned
  15. Rafael Ortega, OF - A
  16. Peter Tago, RHP, A
  17. Christian Friedrich, LHP - AA
  18. Joe Gardner, RHP - AA
  19. Corey Dickerson, OF - Low-A
  20. Thomas Field, 2B - AA
  21. Will Swanner, C - Rookie
  22. Kent Matthes, OF - A (Adv)
  23. Albert Campos, RHP - A
  24. Jordan Pacheco, C/UT - AAA/MLB
  25. Cristhian Adames, SS - A
  26. Ben Paulsen, 1B - AA
  27. Josh Slaats, RHP - Low-A
  28. David Kandilas, CF - Rookie
  29. Jayson Aquino, LHP - DSL
  30. Hector Gomez, SS - AA/MLB
HM:  
Edgmer Escalona, RHP - AAA/MLB
Dillon Thomas, OF - Rookie
Sam Mende, IF - Rookie
Mike Zuanich, 1B - AA
Dan Houston, RHP - AA

updated 10/25/2011. 


Managers

Rox_girl_small Rox Girl

35l7yvb_small Andrew Martin

Staff

Jeff_aberle_small Jeff Aberle

Poison-the-well-the-tropic-rot_small Bryan Kilpatrick

Avatar2_small Andrew T. Fisher

Wittgenstein_small Greg Stanwood

Special Assistants to the GM

Rockies_lost_americana_small holly96