Monday Morning Rockpile:
While I'm always happy with outcomes like yesterday, having one starter who can't lose and four who can't win doesn't help us in the long run. Trade for another? Maybe, but the quality and service time of the starter the Rockies would need certainly limits our available options on the trade front to just about zero. I think we've got to wait a little to make sure that we're really in a position to contend this season in the first place and also to see if other teams open up the availability of their young and talented pitchers. I certainly don't think it's in the club's best interest to trade for a pending free agent or give up prospects if we're still ten games back at the All-Star break.
Clint Barmes didn't start yesterday, but his productive bat has been a definite positive for the Rockies in the wake of Tulo's injury. Jack Etkin writes about what he's been doing to elevate his hitting skills .
Woody Paige learned a valuable lesson about baseball from the Rockies last season; that early May is not the time to panic. Still, the issues facing the Rox right now are a bit more complicated than they were at any point in 2007, and the start of the D-backs more daunting.
I speculated in the game thread that Chris Iannetta's opposite field sac fly with the bases loaded yesterday might have been more impressive
to Clint Hurdle than a walk in regards to his playing time , even though the latter saves the out and leaves the team in a better position to score more. I may have been right:
We are knocking on that door," Hurdle said. "Iannetta has done a good job with the at-bats he's had. He's been very productive."
Meanwhile, Taylor Buchholz figures to see more late inning work given his strong performance in 2008 to date.
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Pebble Report:
I knew I should have written it last night, but I’ve got a lot of work to finish today, so it will probably have to wait until this evening just before the game thread.
by Rox Girl on
May 5, 2008 10:36 AM MDT
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Gee Hurdle
Ya think? PR has been banging the “Start Iannetta Dammit!” drum for over a year now and you’re just now waking up to smell the hummus?
We're all going to die!
by Silverblood on
May 5, 2008 10:57 AM MDT
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Don't worry,
he’s also just realized that he ought to pitch our best reliever more in high leverage situations.
by moomacher on
May 5, 2008 11:36 AM MDT
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Has he figured out
that if the pitcher bats, don’t bring in a reliever?
Garrett Atkins for 2nd ! Ian Stewart for 3rd !
by Redhawk on
May 5, 2008 2:33 PM MDT
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Hurdle
Hurdle isn’t an idiot.
He eventually makes the right moves.
He is just agonizingly slow in doing so sometimes.
by MADness on
May 5, 2008 11:45 AM MDT
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Trading for pitching
Very hard to do this part of the season, but realistically the Rockies need to do it to salvage this season. Too early for out-of-contention, free-agent-to-be trades that happen around July (and the Rox shouldn’t do that anyway … chances of re-signing a free agent pitcher for Coors Field aren’t good) It’s also too soon to tell if other team’s U-balls and Morales’s will pan out or not. (Look at the Yankees’ can’t miss prospects that other teams coveted in the offseason … Hughes and Kennedy … they missed, for now.)
A trade would also require a team with excess pitching (and there are VERY few of those) that needs what the Rockies have to offer: centerfielders or corner infielders).
I keep track of 3 teams pretty closely: Astros, Rockies and Rays. (I guess I have an underdog fetish or something.) It so happens that Rays fans are crying for (a) a right-handed hitting outfielder, and (b) a leadoff hitter (Aki Iwamura’s batting near .200, Carl Crawford doesn’t want to lead off). Willy T. or Spillborghs would fit their team to a T. They’re just getting their ace, Scott Kazmir, back and are trying to figure out which “extra” starting pitcher to remove from the rotation. They’ve got 3 set starters: Kazmir-Shields-Garza and “pick 2 of 3” from Sonnanstine, Edwin Jackson (ex-Dodger prospect, outstanding stuff but erratic) and Hammels.
The two teams’ needs certainly match up. Worth a look.
There is a bright side to the '08 season.
Barry Bonds & Roger Clemens are out of baseball.
by maris61 on
May 5, 2008 12:29 PM MDT
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The Rays seem like the most logical here.
Possibly getting one of the starters from Pittsburgh also. Haven’t the Pirates tried to get Hawpe before?
Francis, Cook, and OH GOD DON'T LOOK....
by The Lodo Magic Man on
May 5, 2008 12:52 PM MDT
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Rays
Haven’t they always asked way more than market value for their players?
The poster formerly known as Blake20th.
by NewMexicanSteven on
May 5, 2008 1:12 PM MDT
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Twins
Twins have Mike Lamb starting at 3b, presently hitting .216 and a .518 OPS.
They also have a number of major league ready pitching prospects, such as Glen Perkins, Kevin Mulvey, Brian Duensing and Kevin Slowey (presently on the DL), as well as Francisco Liriano, who would not be available.
Jeff Baker and a good Single A pitching prospect for one of these guys would make a lot of sense. This is a trade waiting to happen
by Drewan on
May 5, 2008 2:13 PM MDT
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But the Twins
always start any conversation, with this: “we want Stewart and Morales”.....but we haven’t even said who we are interested in…..doesn’t matter, Stewart and Morales
Garrett Atkins for 2nd ! Ian Stewart for 3rd !
by Redhawk on
May 5, 2008 2:31 PM MDT
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Just to try my best to add something positive,
is the scheduling over the next 3 weeks or so. The D-Backs have some tough games against Philly, at Chicago and Detroit along w/ us. Obviously we need to play well and hopefully we turn it on, but if we do, no reason we can’t make up some ground during that time.
by smokinRox on
May 5, 2008 1:14 PM MDT
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Why do we need to trade for more Starting Pitchers?
1) do we think we are in contention for anything this year? Or will be? We currently have the 3rd worst record in the NL. (amazingly Sunday morning we were the worst team in all of baseball!) One pitcher isnt going to help much. We are far closer to competing for worst then first. Sorry that’s reality this year. Our issues go deep then getting another De La Rosa/Towers/Fogg/Edwin Jackson type pitcher.
2) Next year I assume we will have these SP’s ready for major league play:
Francis, Cook, Jimenez, and remade Morales, Reynolds, Hynick, Hirsch. Not to mention Wells, De La Rosa and Cappellan. The Rockies actually will have too much young starting pitching next year.
3) you can never have too much pitching that is true…..but don’t make the move for THIS year. Make it for next year, and try to get an ace in the off season. (if that is possible like this idea of a trade: Toronto Roy Halliday for a Rockies SP prospect, Stewart, Koshanski, Seth Smith, Tavares. they get 3 guys that could start for them right now w/ DH and a young staring pitcher to replace the old pitcher. That’s a great trade for both teams!)
4) our biggest issue, is trying to find out what the long term plans are for Holliday/Atkins/Stewart, and getting a 2nd baseman. And bull pen but most teams have issues there.
Garrett Atkins for 2nd ! Ian Stewart for 3rd !
by Redhawk on
May 5, 2008 2:29 PM MDT
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I am a huge Halladay fan
buy there is no way in hell Toronto is trading him, sadly. Now if we wanted Aj Burnett (we don’t) I’m sure they would listen.
by moomacher on
May 5, 2008 2:47 PM MDT
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Agreed
Toronto is not going to send their ace packing, especially when they feel they could find themselves contending for the AL East again. Secondly, they aren’t really wanting for corner infielders up in the great white north currently. They just picked Rolen up and honestly, their outfield isn’t in bad shape either.
by Rox R Champs on
May 5, 2008 2:55 PM MDT
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Kind of sucks to be them, though
They have to compete with the Red Soxs, the Yankees, and now the insanely talent-rich D Rays.
by moomacher on
May 5, 2008 3:00 PM MDT
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Agreed again
I think we might be seeing the beginning of the turning of the tide in the AL East though, away from the perrenial Yanks/BoSox domination to a more balanced division, and possibly for the Rays and Jays to start battling it out. Boston isn’t going away quite yet, but it is starting to decline in NY.
Back to the idea of trading for pitching, there just isn’t anyone worth going after right now. Trading for a guy who will be a free agent gets us nowhere, except holding the bag when they are looking for big money pay-outs. Trading away our current stars for pitching puts us in danger of repeating our Hampton/Neagle fiasco and also undermines the philosophy of the front office of building up from within. Anybody worth going after in place of our up and coming pitching prospects is going to be a bank buster, and more often than not, history tells us that they are typically just busts in Colorado
by Rox R Champs on
May 5, 2008 3:16 PM MDT
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So
you are saying we shouldn’t make any trades and keep valuable pieces, that won’t ever break into our line up cause they are blocked….and letting them die on the vine?
And I didn’t just pull Roy Halliday’s name out of ass…I’ve read that the Jays would consider moving him. Due to his age, and their needs. Shannon Stewart had a one year contract, and is old, and batting .227. They need one outfielder. They need a catcher to go along with the great duo of Zaun and Barajas. They need a corner infielder as Rolen is hurt and they would like to upgrade over Overbay at 1st. Not to mention that they are starting Ekstein at short, whose batting average, goes down every year. And they have only 2 back up OF’s: Matt Stairs (main DH) and Adam Lind.
By the way, this was just an example. And I didn’t mean today….I clearly wrote ” in the off season”.
Garrett Atkins for 2nd ! Ian Stewart for 3rd !
by Redhawk on
May 5, 2008 3:37 PM MDT
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We don't agree on a lot
And I don’t know if you are primed to argue because I don’t agree that our season is over and that we are a crappy team, but I don’t think you read my last post very carefully. I have no problem trading Stewart and Koshansky, but I don’t see us getting an ace for them, even if we throw in a prospect pitcher. I also don’t see a catcher’s name in your list there… Plus, Rolen is off the DL and playing again. I think they would be looking for stars who are currently starting for the big league club to ship ol’ Roy out of town. And I can read. I saw that you said in the off-season. But that’s after we trade Hawpe, Torrealba, etc during the season this year as you suggested in the other thread right? Like I said over there, I’m glad, as a Rockies fan and believer, that you aren’t in our FO to make such trades. I just don’t think there is a lot of baseball sense in there…
by Rox R Champs on
May 5, 2008 3:52 PM MDT
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you are right
lets keep em all. Lets never ever, make any trades. all our guys are great! we have all-stars all around! And god forbid, I as a fan, might throw a suggestion out. you of course know that no other team ever trades their starting ACE pitcher when they think they might be in contention for something.
I’m glad you like last place.
Garrett Atkins for 2nd ! Ian Stewart for 3rd !
by Redhawk on
May 5, 2008 4:08 PM MDT
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We LOVE last place
Which is precisely why we’re telling you, a fan, that acquiring Roy Halladay is little more than a pipe dream.
Oh, wait… A has nothing to do with B.
Hey, I’m glad you hate last place. But I’m also glad your brand of overreacting isn’t a part of the Rockies organizational philosophy.
Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
by Franchise26 on
May 5, 2008 4:12 PM MDT
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Yeah,
That’s what it is. I like losing. Get real.
I hate losing and these early season struggles are very frustrating. But I’m not going to concede the season. How would an off-season move help us out of last place this year anyway?
Know what else I hate? Your defeatist attitude and lack of faith. You should have been a fan in the early days when your type of knee-jerk reaction was the MO for our club. It wasn’t pretty… And guess what? We were in the basement year in and year out.
by Rox R Champs on
May 6, 2008 7:23 AM MDT
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Somehow
I’m willing to think that U-ball and Morales can pull their acts together enough to be decent pitchers pretty soon. U-ball especially. What I’m more worried about is the shoddy state of our bullpen. I realize most teams always have bp issues, but ours is bordering on pathetic. If there’s some decent help out there somewhere, I think Dan needs to find it. And find help that’s better than Girilli has offered up to date.
Herges, Bucky and Tito can’t pitch in every game.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~ Earl Wilson
by rockhead on
May 5, 2008 3:35 PM MDT
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Answers
1. No. It doesn’t look like we’re winning the West unless Arizona falls apart, and the odds of us catching lightning in a bottle two years in a row are pretty slim. I suppose there’s still an outside shot at making the playoffs, but I don’t think we’re close enough to contention to justify trading away prospects for starting pitching or bullpen help.
2. Reynolds should be ready next year. I’m having second thoughts about Hynick with some of the struggles he’s had at AA; he’ll probably need to start next season at AAA.
3. Getting a player the caliber of Halladay means likely trading away several prospects, and there’s no guarantee the Jays would be willing to part with him. I’m not sure I want to do that. What we need to do is start looking in the draft for guys who have the potential to be an ace in a few years, and forget about signability—that should NOT be our #1 concern in the draft.
4. I have no idea why the Rockies aren’t having Stewart play second base at AAA right now. What, do they think Jayson Nix is going to turn things around and be back up for good in a few weeks? Send him to the bench, and let Stewart get reps at second since he’s not going to be pushing Atkins aside any time soon.
by Tom (RFTN) on
May 5, 2008 3:55 PM MDT
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#3 is a really good point
Since last year’s playoff run seems to have stabilized the financial side of the franchise, we definitely need to look for more high upside pitching in the draft.
by moomacher on
May 5, 2008 4:30 PM MDT
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BTW
“No” on #1 may seem a little harsh, and to clarify my point is more that we shouldn’t try to pull off a big trade mid-season because our playoff hopes are slim as it is. Of course, last season we had that run in May and June after starting slow, so I wouldn’t count the team out yet.
by Tom (RFTN) on
May 5, 2008 5:24 PM MDT
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High-upside pitching
You can never have enough of it. Now, the Rockies have done a pretty good job of getting power arms from Latin America (i.e., Jimenez, Morales, Morillo, Corpas), and while Morillo hasn’t really panned out and Jimenez and Morales aren’t front-line starters (yet), you have to expect that some of your projectable guys aren’t going to pan out. Of course, that’s why you want as many of them as you can get. It’s fine to have a few “safe” guys like Reynolds in the system, but the truth is that you can get pitchers like that in the later rounds. I didn’t dislike the Reynolds pick per se, only that it was so early in the draft and we probably could have gotten a pitcher like that in the second or third round.
The only reason signability should be an issue is if you’re worried that the player won’t sign, period, not that you might have to pay a lot for a signing bonus.
by Tom (RFTN) on
May 5, 2008 5:30 PM MDT
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Ouch!
Sometime around 1999 or 2000, the Rockies were considering trading their ace, Pedro Astacio.
One of the proposals they supposedly turned down was for three Toronto prospects—-Halladay, Vernon Wells and Chris Carpenter.
Instead, Astacio was traded to Houston in 2001; the Rox got Scott Elarton.
by alex colfax on
May 5, 2008 4:21 PM MDT
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That trade proposal doesn't ring any bells
All three were extremely highly regarded prospects coming up through the Jays’ system, and getting even one of them for Astacio would have been a coup. It would have been nice, though.
by WanderingRoxFan on
May 5, 2008 4:24 PM MDT
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On the flip side
Anybody remember when Buddy Bell was our manager and he was trying to engineer an even-up swap of Todd Helton for Tony Clark?
Yeah, sometimes the best trades are the ones you don’t make.
Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
by Franchise26 on
May 5, 2008 4:26 PM MDT
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Re: that trade proposal
Two minutes on Lexis-Nexis led me to this article, written by Mike Klis in the Post on August 1, 2000.
“CHICAGO – The Colorado Rockies were one three-letter word from elevating Julian Tavarez to the staff ace.Two contending clubs presented serious offers to the Rockies in exchange for starting pitcher Pedro Astacio. Led by general manager Dan O’Dowd, the Rockies were listening, then discussing, then thinking seriously about accepting. But they couldn’t agree to say ‘yes.’
The New York Yankees offered starter/reliever Ramiro Mendoza, shortstop/center fielder Alfonso Soriano and one other prospect. In the morning hours of the Monday trading deadline, however, the Yankees pulled out. They wanted Astacio, but they weren’t crazy about taking on about $ 2 million still owed him this year, $ 6.6 million in 2001 and a $ 1 million buyout on a $ 9 million option in ‘02. Apparently, even the Yankees have a budget…
Thus, Astacio – the third-best strikeout pitcher in baseball, behind Pedro Martinez and Randy Johnson – was there for the Toronto Blue Jays to take. Toronto put together a package industry insiders say would have been a great deal for Colorado: starting pitcher Chris Carpenter, Triple-A outfielder Vernon Wells and either Triple-A second baseman Brent Abernathy or Single-A pitcher Coco Reynoso.
Carpenter has pitched poorly this year, but he was 12-7 for Toronto in 1998 and 9-8 last year. He is only 25, and Rockies scouts like him more than they do Roy Halladay, the former Arvada West star. Wells, 21, once was considered one of baseball’s top prospects. He was the fifth player chosen in the 1997 draft. Abernathy is considered a year away from becoming a solid major league second baseman. Reynoso, unlike Armando Reynoso, throws hard.
Still, the Rockies wondered if a 3-for-1 deal was enough for Astacio. They could get five pitchers for Astacio, and none of them could do what he does for the Rockies. Astacio is the only starting pitcher in Rockies history who has survived the test of time at Coors Field. Wasn’t the idea to get better starters around him?
Then again, Astacio has slipped this year, going from 17-11 in 1999 to 8-7 entering his start today at Wrigley Field against the Chicago Cubs. And the Blue Jays were offering a lot of talent…”
The bit about Wells in the article leads me to believe that his prospect luster had dimmed at that time. And who could have seen Carpenter’s emergence into a Cy Young caliber starter in his early 30s?
Soriano might have solved our second base problem for a few years, though… always fun to play ‘what if’.
Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
by Franchise26 on
May 5, 2008 4:34 PM MDT
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Follow up
A New York Post article the day before indicates that the Yankees-Rockies deal for Astacio was all but done until the Rox got cold feet.
“It’s very hot and heavy,” a source close to the Rockies told The Post last night. “[Alfonso] Soriano is the key name.”In addition to giving up Soriano, the Yankees will send Ramiro Mendoza, minor-league lefty Ted Lilly and minor-league infielder Scott Seabol to the Rockies. The Yankees were looking for another player in return and talked to the Rockies about outfielder Butch Huskey and second baseman Jeff Frye.
The Rockies have been shopping Astacio, a 30-year-old right-hander, to the Blue Jays the past few days but yesterday those talks fell apart when Rockies GM Dan O’Dowd and Blue Jays GM Gord Ash couldn’t come to an agreement on names.O’Dowd wanted major-league pitchers Chris Carpenter and Roy Halladay, outfielder Vernon Wells and minor-league hurler Pasqual Coco.
So O’Dowd wanted that Carpenter, Wells, and Halladay package, but the Jays nixed it – and, as it turns out, wisely so.
Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
by Franchise26 on
May 5, 2008 4:37 PM MDT
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Thanks for the clarification...
I’m just glad to know the Rockies weren’t the ones who rejected that deal. I remember a trade seemed imminent at the time but I had forgotten about the Yankees’ offer.
The less said about Scott Elarton’s stint with the Rockies, the better.
by alex colfax on
May 5, 2008 4:43 PM MDT
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How about two words?
On Elarton’s stint in Colorado: He sucked.
Every day is a Holliday!
by free7694 on
May 5, 2008 4:45 PM MDT
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Elarton
Elarton had legit big-league stuff, for sure – but once he got hurt, he never really cut it loose again. He always looked like a guy pitching scared – like if he tried to throw too hard or tried to break out a big breaking ball, his arm would fall off of his body.
Turned out we got him as damaged goods and he was never the same kid that was so impressive as a rookie in 1999. Oh, well.
Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
by Franchise26 on
May 5, 2008 4:46 PM MDT
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Carpenter, Wells, AND Halladay for Astacio?!
NOW you tell me this. [moans, mumbles]
We're all going to die!
by Silverblood on
May 5, 2008 5:04 PM MDT
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I stand completely corrected
Ah … what if
by WanderingRoxFan on
May 5, 2008 4:51 PM MDT
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