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Sunday Morning Rockpile:

Hello, June. Good bye, 9-19 May. Nothing like the start of a new month to hopefully win a game.

And on this first day of June, Woody Paige and Mark Kiszla decided to have a debate on the merits of trading Matt Holliday before July's trade deadline. Paige believes the "Skid Rox" should trade Holliday and lists eleven possible destinations. Two of those are Clevelan (for C.C. Sabathia) and San Francisco (for Tim Lincecum). Mark Kiszla doesn't believe that's possible:

But do you really believe a Holliday fire sale is going to land the Rockies a stud pitcher such as Cleveland's C.C. Sabathia or Tim Lincecum from San Francisco?

Dream on.

Only a sucker who thought the Rockies were a better team than the Red Sox might believe Holliday would bring equal value in trade.

Even if the Rockies could land C.C. Sabathia, does anyone seriously believe, as Paige does, that the Monforts would "get over the Hampton/Neagle debacle" and give Sabathia the money he wants?

Ubaldo Jimenez faces Sean Gallagher in a few hours.

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First off.

I do not want to see Holliday in our division. Period. I’m thinking AL only.

C.C. Sabathia? That’s like my last choice ever. I’ve always thought they should trade for a couple top prospects, a potential #1 starter being the first on the list.

Do these guys really expect any team to trade their ace, especially if they are competing for something?

We may have been suckers, but we also know how trades work, and what trades are most valuable…

by roxintober on Jun 1, 2008 9:22 AM MDT   0 recs

Paige is delusional.....

Not only would the Rockies not pay to keep Sabathia, but one stud pitcher is NOT the cure that would fix what ails the Rockies right now. Sure, we should have an ace, but our problems are much deeper than that.

The Rockies are scoring an average of 4.2 runs per game this season, a pace of 689 runs for the whole year. The all-time franchise low in runs scored for a full season is 740 runs, so we are on pace to break the record-low in runs scored. Would trading Holliday for an ace pitcher fix that? No. Nor would trading a soon-to-be expensive Holliday for a soon-to-be expensive ace like Sabathia help our financial situation.

By the way, we are allowing 5.52 runs per game, which is not breaking any team records for most runs allowed. It’s the highest since 2004 when we allowed 5.70 runs per game, also during the humidor era.

So, while our pitching and DEFENSE have resulted in other teams scoring in droves, especially lately, it’s not unprecedented in Rockies history. 4.2 runs scored per game, however, IS unprecedented. So, unlike most of the unsophisticated Denver media, we should all appreciate how the Rockies need more HITTING as well as tighter defense, better baserunning and more consistent starting pitching.

So many problems, and yet media hacks think there’s a simple solution. Let’s hope our front office thinks a little more clearly than Paige.

by GoRoxGo on Jun 1, 2008 9:28 AM MDT   0 recs

Uggh

I don’t even have the energy today to consider trade possibilities. Can we just win a frickin game, please? How about a quality start from Ubaldo? too much too ask for?

The 2008 Rockies: All loses, all season

by moomacher on Jun 1, 2008 10:31 AM MDT   0 recs

Quality Start from U-ball too much to ask?

No. He’s had four of them this season, second most on the team to Cook. Asking us to win one of those quality starts is probably too much to ask.

by Rox Girl on Jun 1, 2008 10:41 AM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Just so some reporters can get it straight:

A real fluke month is like July 2004, when the Rockies went 18-10 in between two months of 9-17 and 9-18, and that represented the only winning month of the season. Last September was a very good month for a decent team that had only one losing month. For that matter, actually April of 2007 seems more of the fluke than September does.

Now whether 2007 was a fluke season needs to be answered, as right now it looks like a good year will be sandwiched by two awful ones. If the team comes back for a handful more winning campaigns in 2009 and beyond, than we’ll be able to accept it in retrospect as the start of a broader run. I’m still taking this stance, but we’ve got to fix some serious problems this summer.

by Rox Girl on Jun 1, 2008 10:52 AM MDT   0 recs

Kizla's Point was about the same as mine

Yes, Holliday will walk….but I don’t think we will get much in value for him ala the Texiera trade didn’t exactly help the Rangers. I say let him play it out…..we get the Draft picks, and the Monforts can pretend they didn’t dump him, but Holliday and the evil Scott Boras snubbed us.

My other point not made by Kizla, is I think we have a shot at good 09 season. I don’t think trading Holliday will help us get back more then we will lose just for that one season.

Colorado Rockies: Continuing a long tradition of playing meaningless games in June!

by Redhawk on Jun 1, 2008 11:06 AM MDT   0 recs

The Teixera trade did help the Rangers

It just didn’t help them in 2007. Salty’s got a 116 OPS+ this season. Neftali Feliz is 5-1 with a 2.05 ERA and a 59% GB rate at low A as a twenty year old, and looks to be at least as good a prospect as Jhoulys Chacin. Matt Harrison looks like a decent mid-rotation starter and had a no hitter at AA (7 innings) earlier this month. Elvis Andrus still looks to be a solid shortstop in a couple of seasons. That’s four players that are at least at the level you would expect from picks in the 16-60 range (compensation picks) and a couple of them seem more like top 15 type of players. Make the argument that Matt would help us more in 2009, but the argument that the return from a trade won’t be better than the draft picks is bogus.

by Rox Girl on Jun 1, 2008 11:31 AM MDT to parent up   0 recs

The Rangers

also needed to add talent to their system. The Rockies need talent in the major leagues more than A ball talent. I guess my point was Holliday in 08 (wasted year) and 09 (year of potential) is greater then 4 kids with a shot at the bigs in 3 to 4 years who, may or may not pan out. Throw in the fact that Holliday as a walking FA gets us 2 good draft picks anyway….I don’t see the upside of getting rid of Holliday now.

If this was BEFORE the Rockies rebuilt their minor league talent a few years ago, and we were going through, 04, 05, 06 crap years, It’s a different story.

Colorado Rockies: Continuing a long tradition of playing meaningless games in June!

by Redhawk on Jun 1, 2008 11:55 AM MDT to parent up   0 recs

I see your point...

I think I still trade Holliday, though. Especially if I can get a package that includes #1 starter type at the AA level or above. There aren’t many teams that qualify in this regard, I think the best fit is Tampa, any of Jake McGee, David Price or Wade Davis would work as a headliner, they have plenty of talent to make a strong package, and they could have Holliday taking over for Gabe Gross to make a scary lineup that legitimately could surprise the Red Sox or Yankees. I think the move makes a lot more sense for both clubs than those Paige endorses, and it still gives us a decent shot in 2009.

by Rox Girl on Jun 1, 2008 12:12 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Now do you think

we could get that same #1 starter you ask for if we move Jeff Francis? Some teams/GMs tend to over value major league pitchers (see, Carlos Silva, Gil Meche, etc) and under value “prospects” I think we could really fleece someone with Francis

Colorado Rockies: Continuing a long tradition of playing meaningless games in June!

by Redhawk on Jun 1, 2008 12:22 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

BUT before you CALL and BUY

remember that Francis is 17 game winner! And we’ll throw in a free set of Genzu knives! But wait there’s more, well also throw in a minor league middle infielder of your choice (cause the Rockies appear to have a abundance of mediocre middle infielders that can’t hit in the minors)

Colorado Rockies: Continuing a long tradition of playing meaningless games in June!

by Redhawk on Jun 1, 2008 12:31 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Not at as high a level

I think we could get a #1 starter type, but it would be a raw toolsy guy with lots of stuff but command issues at the A ball level. I still think we could fleece a team for Francis, but it would be more along the lines of the Jennings deal where our best bet is to look for young once hyped guys who have been too quickly written off by their current team for struggling too much at the MLB level.

I think the best possibilities for getting an ace are with Holliday or Atkins. Hawpe probably would have been an okay bet before he came out of the gate in 2008 like he did.

by Rox Girl on Jun 1, 2008 12:34 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Hapton/Neagle

Good god, I’m tired of hearing about this. Every team makes blunders. The good ones put them in the rear view mirror.

by BroJB on Jun 1, 2008 11:59 AM MDT   0 recs

Cubs still hear about

the Lou Brock for Shantz and Broglio trade and that was 1964! Some blunders are just monumentally bad.

But I agree with you. Does the Hampton/Neagle deals mean the Rockies will never offer a good free agent a contract ever again?

Colorado Rockies: Continuing a long tradition of playing meaningless games in June!

by Redhawk on Jun 1, 2008 12:27 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

It means that

Instead of going after the Dan Haren’s of the world, we go after the Josh Tower’s of the world. It seems the Rockies FO is too obsessed with finding a “diamond in the rough” instead of spending the money on a legitimate mid-rotation pitcher. Sometimes it works (Rodrigo Lopez in 07 when he was healthy), most times it doesn’t.

I’m not discounting the offensive woes in here, though – I know full well that Haren’s start to the season has been helped with run production, and that he probably wouldn’t get as much here in Denver. But he’s gotta be a better option than Towers/Wells/Viz/any other name you throw up there.

by oo_nrb on Jun 1, 2008 2:09 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Speaking of Haren...

The Cardinals trading him away was one of the dumbest moves ever, in retrospect. Every team makes bad deals.

The fact is that, generally speaking, more teams are doing more to hold on to their own players, which means that the free agent market isn’t what it was a few years ago, when you really could go out and get a top-notch player through free agency. And greater competitive balance means that it’s tougher to pry such a player from another team through a trade. Over the last few years, there have been fewer teams that have been so completely out of it by the trade deadline that they’re willing to trade guys away and play for next year, and there are even fewer who truly believe they have no shot at competing before the season.

Being completely honest here, the Rockies didn’t have the prospect depth to be able to match the package that the Diamondbacks sent to Oakland to get Haren. They sent six players to Oakland just to get Haren, and really none of them were filler material. Maybe the Rockies could have swung a trade for Bedard, but it would have required giving up Dexter Fowler and probably a couple of pitchers.

And to be realistic, a good #2 or #3 guy alone won’t really make the difference between where we are now and contending in the West. A good #2 or #3 guy coupled with Francis being, well, Francis instead of the impostor we’ve been seeing… well, that would help.

by Tom (RFTN) on Jun 1, 2008 6:36 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

THE ROX HAD THE DEPTH....THE TRADE WAS IN PLACE EXCEPT......

they didn’t want to part with Chris Nelson…ergo: he was the deal breaker.

by 91 wins in 08 on Jun 1, 2008 7:17 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

He better be worth it, huh?

Not showing it so much this season.

by Rox Girl on Jun 1, 2008 7:18 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

You are making it sound so insignificant

Just Chris Nelson? That’s it? No, there were roughly four other high quality players involved.

by David OhNo on Jun 1, 2008 9:59 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

TRUE BUT THE ROX WERE AGREEABLE TO THE OTHER 4....

it was Nelson that was the deal breaker…no one ever intimated it was Haren for Nelson…. that would be your favorite rappa…Ludikrus!

by 91 wins in 08 on Jun 2, 2008 3:15 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Also from today's Baseaball Notes

Jason Jennings, had season ending surgery. The bad news is this is the SAME elbow he had surgery on last year. This is not good news for the ole elbow!

Now this is actually interesting. JJ signed a one year deal, hoping to reestablish his value. Now his value is at an all time low. But I think there is one team, who would actually value him next year, and offer a nice scrap heap type contract. The team that loves veteran scrap heap pitchers more than any other: The Colorado Rockies!

Colorado Rockies: Continuing a long tradition of playing meaningless games in June!

by Redhawk on Jun 1, 2008 12:16 PM MDT   0 recs

You sell the team short

We’ve had plenty of veteran scrap heap hitters, too.

by oo_nrb on Jun 1, 2008 2:05 PM MDT to parent up   0 recs

Holliday

The everyday Rockies fan will not understand trading away Holliday. They don’t really care about the Scott Boras variable because all they will see is that he is gone. With that in mind, O’Dowd and the Monforts will have the media’s ear and will constantly feed them favorable info much like they did in the case of Jason Jennings and what is currently happening with Atkins. However, Holliday is much more popular so the spin will have to be intensely negative.

The Jennings trade worked out well.. O’Dowd can and has made some decent trades and since Matt is under contract through next year, then there is no hurry so he should be able to work a fair deal. The thing the fans may have to accept is watching Holliday playing on the big stage either as a Free Agent signing or a trade. It may make baseball sense to talk trades with all the teams, however, there won’t be a trade to a small market club in the AL (Devil Rays) because those type teams don’t trade for Boras players, they instead trade them away. Boras is basically working for the big market teams and probably already has had conversations about Matt with Boston, NY, NY, LA, Cubs.. etc.

by roxhead on Jun 1, 2008 12:34 PM MDT   0 recs

The silly factor in all this

is how overrated compensatory picks are becoming.

Let’s look at this realistically. The Rockies have always held a firm budget when it comes to drafting, and while they won’t lowball anyone, they won’t really go over slot in the first few rounds either. The more high picks you add, the more likely the budget will allow for less money for each first rounder the Rockies select. If we are looking at Baseball America’s Top 100 as a rough guide, it would be unlikely that the Rockies would nab several players in the top fifty on that list for budgetary concerns. On top of that, the Rockies second pick rarely seems to come from someone falling, but more often falls in the reach category. Good player or not, the Rockies are again less likely to take a high rated player on pundits lists later on the first day.

That’s just the first issue. The second is the myriad of issues that relate to all Type A type guys. Do you really want them back if they accept arbitration? If a bad team signs him, are the low Comp One picks worth the value of the player? Comp picks are a pretty big crap shoot.

Lastly, you’re holding on to a guy so that you can get one or two players that will start at the very bottom rung of the system. On the flip side, you can trade the guy for one or two players that have already reached Double A, have a developed skill set easier to forecast, and could provide quicker dividends to the club.

I’m a big draft guy, but let’s not get carried away with the allure of a draft pick. Prospects are prospects, and if I had my drouthers, I’d get them from Double A before I’d get them from Rookie Ball.

There’s no talent gap either, if you offer a Fuentes or a Holliday or an Atkins, you’ll get some players back, and they’ll have a smidge more certainty and an earlier ETA. Trades make so much more sense.

by David OhNo on Jun 1, 2008 10:12 PM MDT   0 recs

It's ronic...

That Mark Kiszla is the voice of reason – even though it’s only in a debate with Woody Paige. Crazy year.

by Since1993 on Jun 2, 2008 12:00 AM MDT   0 recs

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