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Saturday Morning Rockpile:

2008 has pretty much lost meaning to Rockies fans, as last night's anemic game thread would indicate, so increasingly our focus is going to be on 2009. This offseason is shaping up to be an interesting battle as all five teams will enter with big holes to fill, and whoever does the best job at that might well head into April as the favorite. While it's easy to get caught up in the Rockies big rotation question marks heading into the offseason, it's important to note that our rivals aren't much better off:

AZ 2009 Lineup with their ages and 2007 OPS+ figures:

C: Snyder 28, 111

1B: Jackson 27, 121

2B: ?

SS: Drew 26, 104

3B: Reynolds 25, 108

LF: Byrnes? 33, 63

CF: Young 25, 85

RF: Upton 21, 101

Rotation:

Webb 159

Haren 153

Johnson? 109

Davis? 95

Scherzer? 156

Petit? 146

Arizona's rotation looks a lot better on paper than it does in real life. Driveline Mechanics (whose bloggers are apparently going to be joining SBN soon, woot!) outlined the risk that is Scherzer, a risk that became reality earlier this year when he was shut down for "shoulder fatigue". He's in a sort of Mark Prior/Joel Zumaya class of pitcher that will be great until the seemingly inevitable crash against that injury wall, a wall he may well have already hit. Petit is that rare breed of a finesse righty, something that almost never works very long at the MLB level without some sort of ball scuffing or slopping technique. Davis and Randy Johnson are both showing age related slides to mediocrity or worse, a condition that could be expected to continue next season. As troubling for the D-backs might be the lack of development with the lineup, as it's looking more likely that they will have just one superstar player in Justin Upton, a pretty good one in CoJack, but merely solid regulars at four other positions, and outright holes in left and second base. Adding in several bullpen departures, the situation for the D-backs in 2009 shows a team that will have troubles maintaining contention, even with the pair of aces at the top of the rotation. Without help from the farm, the only recourse left to the Diamondbacks to make fixes is to spend a boatload of money. As a Rockies fan, I don't want them to get those funds, it's one big reason to hope the Dodgers keep them home this year.

Speaking of LA and having to spend a boatload of money:

C: Martin

1B: Loney

2B: DeWitt?

SS:?

3B: ?

LF: Kemp 24, 111

CF: Jones? 32, 35; Pierre? 31, 69

RF: Ethier 27, 103

Rotation:

Billingsley: 142

Kuroda: 113

Kershaw: 117

#4: ??

#5: McDonald?

Brad Penny's back issues are making it more iffy that the Dodgers pick up his option, and at any rate they're going to have to dip into the free agency pool to shore things up or rely on a tremendously young but talented group of pitchers. The Rockies of this year can tell them the perils of doing that. But LA's going to be having to also fill several position player holes, and there might already be a tight supply of decent available players to do that via free agency. While Los Angeles has the money anyway, the short supply of FA talent makes it more likely they'll have to dip into their farm system to make trades.

Now let's look at the Rox:

C: Iannetta 26, 128

1B: Helton 35, 102

2B: Baker? 28, 93

3B: Atkins 29, 105; Stewart 24, 125

LF: Holliday 29, 159; Spilborghs 29, 134

CF: Fowler?; Taveras 27, 59

RF: Hawpe 30, 129

Rotation:

Jimenez: 117

Cook: 119

Francis: 85

???

???

I think I'm changing my position from a few days ago and am right now in the camp that we keep Holliday unless we get a quality starting pitcher. After looking at the other teams, I'm just starting to see too much opportunity for next season to let him go right now. Atkins is another story, as there's no way we're going to be able to deal Helton, Garrett's looking like a good player who will have greater value to the team in trade and a better opportunity for long term security on some other club. I think the Rockies need to give Hawpe some first base time, in fact, I'd like him to be pencilled in as the starter for 2009 as I think that layout with him at first, Spilly in right, Holliday in left and Stewart at third gives us our best offensive and defensive look not to mention one of the NL's most potent lineups so long as Fowler adjusts well and Tulo hits like he did last night. The next question would be to how to go about telling Todd (barring a miracle cure) that he'd have greater value to the team as a potent bat off the bench than a starter, but that's where Clint Hurdle can really earn his keep. If he's successful at that, it makes up for a multitude of in game strategy decisions.

I'll try and look into the two teams below us in the standings tomorrow, the Giants are a lot closer than I thought they'd be and the Padres seemingly might be destined to be at the bottom in 2009 again the way things are looking right now. The point is that there's a big opportunity for the Rockies this offseason to become divisional heavyweights with relatively minor fixes.

Jorge De La Rosa's outing last night was his fourth quality start out of his last five. When we got him, he was more of a one good start, two or three bad ones type of pitcher, so I'm hopeful that this trend continues for the rest of the season, as he'd be a surprisingly decent asset to carry into next season if it does.

0 recs | Comment 13 comments

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I think this is the perfect opportunity...

To thank you and Russ for all the work you do for this site. This post is beyond great.

And to add, I also think that Atkins is as tradable now as he’ll ever be, especially since he’ll net us another MLB ready pitcher.

I feel bad for Arizona’s offense just as much now as ever.

by roxintober on Aug 16, 2008 11:05 AM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Los Angeles

I’d assume they bring back Furcal, as both sides, have said they want Furcal to be a Dodger. Also there aren’t many teams that could afford to sign him.

But this from the LA Daily News earlier this month Backs up Rox Girls idea, that there will be some holes for LA to fill:

The Dodgers will have considerable flexibility with their payroll this winter. They have several veteran players who are potential free agents whom the club isn’t expected to try seriously to re-sign, including pitcher Derek Lowe ($10 million this season), second baseman Jeff Kent ($9million) and infielder Nomar Garciaparra ($8.5million). The club also could lose shortstop Rafael Furcal ($13 million). And pitcher Brad Penny has a $9.25 million club option for next year.

I would move Atkins for sure. Holliday, I’m 50/50 on. As Helton’s back looks worse and worse, I would assume Hawpe moves to first. If Holliday goes as well, that’s 2 out field slots to fill. BUT…we also need some quality prospects as well.

Does this mean the Rockies can be competitive next year? I’m less sold on that idea right at the moment.

Thought Clint Hurdle should be fired before it was cool.

by Redhawk on Aug 16, 2008 12:18 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Furcal's also going to be 31 next season

And coming off a year where he had some major back issues of his own that limited him to less than 150 AB’s. And while those 150 AB’s were great, I’m seeing shades of Clint Barmes’ venison injury in this in that they apparently have the Dodgers overvaluing what he’s actually going to give them next year.

Spilborghs will fill one outfield slot just fine. Why I don’t think we should trade Holliday is because I don’t see Spilly filling two. And while Seth Smith might rise to a starting caliber, it’s safer for the team to keep Holliday until at least July to see if he does. Will that limit our return for Matt? Yeah, but it will also not open a gigantic hole in the lineup for next season that we don’t have to open. If Los Angeles signs Manny plus a Sabathia or Sheets, unloads Pierre or Jones and draws in Orlando Hudson to play second, then the Rockies should absolutely trade Matt, but right now I see the positives of keeping him outweigh all but the most ridiculous offers.

It will be easier to fill that prospect need

by Rox Girl on Aug 16, 2008 12:54 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

d'oh, forgot I was going to say something more about the prospects.

Getting back elite prospect talent wasn’t happening at the trade deadline where one consensus top fifty prospect was traded (Matt LaPorta, although Andy LaRoche would have made that category at the beginning of the season) and only a handful of very good ones got moved. I don’t know what kind of draw we’ll get for Holliday even this winter because the team’s with the biggest LF needs are either in the division (AZ, SD, SF, even LA if Manny bolts) or are teams that haven’t lately been willing to give up the best of their young like the Yankees, Mets or Marlins.

I think a player the caliber of Atkins it’s okay to deal him off for quantity of midgrade talent, but with Holliday you’d want the showstopper.

by Rox Girl on Aug 16, 2008 1:10 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The point about the OF is a good one

Spilly can only play one position. Seth Smith is nice, and I like the idea of him having more at bats, but not sure he is ready for prime time full time starter. Also, throw in Dexter Fowler, may have trouble adjusting to the big leagues, and that’s the entire OF being question marks to some extent.

But….if Holliday walks after next year, ….where/who is his replacement in 2010? If he can’t bring back a starter or close to a starter either at 1b or a corner OF type bat, I guess Holliday should stay. Colby Rasmus straight up?

Thought Clint Hurdle should be fired before it was cool.

by Redhawk on Aug 16, 2008 2:09 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hawpe starting at 1st base

I like this idea for 2009, assuming diminished playing time or absence of Helton. More consistent contact from Hawpe at the plate would help matters. I think Hawpe could develop into a fine left-handed 1st-baseman defensively. I guess this possibility has always been on the back burner—just haven’t heard it brought up much lately.

by DeepPurple on Aug 16, 2008 1:34 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know Hawpe has range issues...

…which is no small problem at Coors but he really has a huge arm out there. Would that be wasted at first base?

I also tend to think this could be it for Helton. It’s my understanding his disc(s) is/are decaying. A doctor can replace them with, like, a polyurethane “doughnut” but he might not be ever able to play baseball again. Atkins played first in college and has done nothing but shown he’s a hard worker at playing whatever position he plays. I’m not refusing to trade him but wondering if he doesn’t offer us more value in uniform than as trade bait for Rox Girl’s “midgrade” prospects.

I believe we’ll need to be ready for Dexter Fowler to have a tough time making it to the bigs, like Iannetta and Stewie have had. I think jumping him from Double-A to Denver could be a two-year, back-and-forth-from-the-Springs-type process.

Finally, forgive me for holding on to the hope that we do resign Matt Holiday.

by Since1993 on Aug 16, 2008 1:45 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hawpe vs Atkins at 1b

Hawpe has a nice, arm in RF, but I wouldn’t call it a cannon right now. It was, but not sure it hasn’t dropped off a little. He takes terrible routes to balls. And he’s not getting in younger, and his range which was never great seems to be starting to drop . He’s a better 1b candidate than Atkins because he is left handed, AND because he is more athletic.

At a certain point, the Rockies really need to trade these major league players into more prospects if they are to follow the build with-in model. Atkins is the odd man out. With Stewart at 3rd, and Atkins lack of athleticism in the field either at 3rd or 1st, he has the most value in a trade. Is Atkins a good hitter? Yes! that’s why he has value, and should bring back some players. Atkins was a terrible defensive 3rd baseman, that became fair. Playing 1st so far this year, he’s back to terrible. Given his age, I don’t see him becoming even fair at first. In fact the more I’ve seen him in the field, the more I think he’s a DH in the making.

Oh, and I don’t think Joe Koshanski is an quality option either at first. He’s old to be a “prospect” and he’s got too long and slow of a swing for the major’s

Thought Clint Hurdle should be fired before it was cool.

by Redhawk on Aug 16, 2008 2:19 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The runs allowed from the range issues add up a lot quicker than

those prevented by his arm, but admittedly it’s not like Spilborghs has been that much better in right field this season. Given his skillset, Spilly should be better in right going forward though, and gets much better reads typically off the bat than Brad does. The few plays per season where a cannon in right field is necessary just probably aren’t worth emphasizing over the many plays where a gazelle would be preferred.

Fowler’s MLB transition issues shouldn’t hurt us much if Tulo comes back. The terrible T’s (Tulo, Taveras and our early over reliance on Torrealba) were what made Jayson Nix’s struggles that much harder to bear. If Tulo and Baker or Barmes (or a better outside option?) can provide at least average offensive production, the Rockies will be able to weather a difficult transition by Dex. If not, that much more pressure’s going to be put on him, and at that point you’ve just got to send him to the Springs.

by Rox Girl on Aug 16, 2008 2:26 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

DOES ANYONE KNOW IF MLB TEAMS HAVE INSURANCE GUARANTEEING.......

the salary of an injured player such as Helton, if he can’t return?

by 91 wins in 08 on Aug 16, 2008 3:09 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Helton's contract should be at least partially guaranteed

by insurance, moreso than huge pitching contracts I imagine, as there’s less risk typically with position players, but I bet it’s sort of like a mattress warranty in that the further you get from the date of purchase, the smaller the portion of the contract that’s insurable.

by Rox Girl on Aug 16, 2008 3:41 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The big challenge

I see for this organization is who are we? Are we the team that played great for a streak in 2007 or the dismal underachievers this year. My guess is somewhere in between. You look at the stats year on year and the team lost production from basically every position sans Catcher (thanks to Iannetta). 3B was likely a push. Point here is that the 2007 Rockies needed seemingly career years from everybody to contend and then had to make a record breaking streak to get in.

The issue of pitching depth will continue to be the main focus. For two years they have tracked a recycle type approach. Last year they got lucky with Jimenez and Morales giving them more than adequate fill. This year outside of Cook and Jimenez the 3-5 slots have been dismal and inconsistent.

My main issue is that since a November day in 2006 (when the Jennings trade went down) there have been basically no significant moves to upgrade this roster by O;Dowd. How much of this is front office constraints, how much is too much love for a farm system that has historically struggled in yielding quality pitching talent is up for debate.

I think the balance of 2008 should be dedicated to giving personnel like Smith, Stewart, Fowler, Koshansky, and Morales some quality playing time. I view Taveras, Yorvit, Sullivan all as expendable.

I know people will want to keep Holliday but history shows any Boras client will bolt. Trade him to the Yankees this offseason for some pitching talent rather than draft picks if kept. Atkins also must go since there will be know place to put him.

As much as it hurts to admit it, the Rockies will always be at best the NL version of the Minnesota Twins for the foseeable future. Developing quality talent to star talent and seeing them leave for greener pastures. Constantly having to backfill through shrewd moves and a productive farm system to stay competitive.

Since the Monforts will never sell (unfortunately) that is the way it is.

by PinchHitLancePainter on Aug 16, 2008 11:33 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Great comment, and I'd like to expand on a point
As much as it hurts to admit it, the Rockies will always be at best the NL version of the Minnesota Twins for the foseeable future. Developing quality talent to star talent and seeing them leave for greener pastures. Constantly having to backfill through shrewd moves and a productive farm system to stay competitive.

Several teams have tried this “model” of building a team. Baseball has a huge issue with money disparity there are 2 classes, a haves and a have-not class. The Rockies seem to be in the Have-not class. There is little to no money for anything. The Rockie have stepped up to around the league average payroll this last year of around $75 million, which isn’t much per player considering there are 25 players, plus, those with major league contracts in the minors. It means there just isn’t room for a 21 million per year for 7 year deal (cough Holliday cough),

But lets look at the teams that use the “cheap-O” model. The Indians, The Twins, The Royals, The Rays, the A’s in the American, In the National League: The Rockies, the D-Backs, the Padres, the Reds, the Pirates, the Brewers, the Phillies, the Nationals, the Marlins, plus new converts the Cardinals, the Braves, and the Orioles.

But lets look at the teams that are consistently over the last 5 years, Division Winners (03,04,05,06.07)
AL East; New York Yankees 4 times
AL West: Los Angeles Angels 3 times Oakland 2 times
AL Central: Minnesota 3 times
NL E Atlanta (while still having a payroll of over $100million) 3 times
NL Central: St. Louis 3 times, but the Chicago Cubs 2 times
the NL west, had the best parity, 4 different division winners, and 2 wild card teams
Speaking of the Wild Card: Boston, 3 time winner

Does that mean money is the answer? Well, not if you are the New York Mets, Detroit Tigers, Los Angeles Dodgers, San Fransisco Giants, the Seattle Mariners or the Texas Rangers. And of this list, the Tigers want to get below 100 mil, the Mariners would like to get below 100 mil and I know the Rangers have cut payroll considerably over the last few years and are near the league average, (maybe below.)

Besides the the Twins, no small payroll team has been a consistent division winner. Oakland did it twice, and St. Louis could be considered one of the few middle class teams usually with a payroll around $90 give or take did it 3 times. The window for the “have-nots” is small. They have to get a lot of quality young players in a short period of time, and then turn them before they hit free agency years, at the same time replacing them with equal quality players. It’s very hard to do. To make it work there has to be a dedication of the organization to draft and sign the best players. And then once in, they have to be developed by the best coaches. And since the window is so small, that development has to occur at the major league level as well as the minors. I’ve not seen this full dedication to the plan from the Rockies.

Now the best model for success: the Braves (before being sold) and the Red Sox. Develop a bunch of players, re-sign a few key players, let a few walk. If you have a hole, either trade for with some prospects, are just sign a free agent to plug the hole. Use both money, AND the minors to their fullest.

Brains plus money is a scary combo. Personally I look at the Rockies organization, and see too little of either.

Thought Clint Hurdle should be fired before it was cool.

by Redhawk on Aug 17, 2008 10:16 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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