Beyond the Boxscore Community WAR Project 2009
So Sky Kalkman at BTB has asked baseball bloggers to help him out in filling out a massive database grid with win projections for all thirty teams (to see what I have for the Rockies, open the grid and click on the COL tab). The basis for this idea is that fan communities for teams, while biased, may also have a better grasp on their team's depth charts and player health situations and may be better able to model playing time.
To start the discussion, I entered each Rockies CHONE projection, and then played around with the plate appearances and IP until I came up with a semi-satisfactory model. You'll note with the win estimator to the right registering 85 wins that CHONE is about as bullish on the Rockies with the way I dispersed the PT for 2009 as those other projections that I linked to over the weekend.
So to start this discussion, let's look at a few things:
- I'm operating under the assumption that Garrett Atkins will be traded mid-season with just 390 PA's. Is this a correct assumption? I'm just looking at it, and if Helton's healthy and Stewart's as good as projected, Garrett certainly would seem expendable.
- To come out to 85 wins after a 74 win season in 2008 there have to be a lot of happy rebounds built in, not all of them may come true. Do you think the expected comebacks by Helton, Tulo, Atkins and Francis are for real, or should we temper our expetations a bit and lower those projections?
- I didn't input baserunning at all yet, as the Rockies lost their two best runners this offseason. Who, if anybody, can we expect to provide value on the basepaths, and who will be a liability?
- Speaking of baserunning, Eric Young Jr. seems as likely as anybody to get a September call-up and see some PA's, where should we slot him in, and how many at bats should we give him?
- For the defensive values I put in, I mostly just guessed. Brad Hawpe was about 4 wins worth on the bad side of the defensive spectrum last season, which is about as bad as he could get. I have him rebounding all the way to just a two win liability, is this too much to expect? The rest I tried to conservatively keep within one win from zero either way (Atkins would have been worse with a full season at third) but if I'm off base let me know.
- One player that just doesn't seem to project well at all is Aaron Cook, is a 4.70 ERA really what we should expect from him given his FIP last season was nearly a full run lower than that at 3.80?
- In general, CHONE is pessimistic about our starters abilities to pitch a lot of innings. I kept the projections mostly the same for everybody except JDLR who I bumped to 145 from 108, and Greg Smith who I dropped to 128 from 143, is this too optimistic or too pessimistic?
- Manny Corpas may only be our fourth best reliever according CHONE, is that too conservative, or do you believe the hype about him getting back to an over the top delivery?
- At the other end, I really don't know if Glendon Rusch or Jason Grilli's projections are park adjusted, they seem a little too good to be true.
Okay, these are just some ideas to get us started with this discussion. I'm curious what everybody thinks will happen with the Rockies come 2009. As we get some community consensus, I'll modify the WAR spreadsheet accordingly.
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36 comments
Comments
oops...
I realized that the first time I input the data in the spreadsheet, it didn’t take all the way, Brad Hawpe’s defense brings us down from the 86.8 number I originally input to 85. Ouch.
by Rox Girl on Jan 14, 2009 2:42 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
DH?
I’m not sure how we get all those DH plate appearances. DId you mean PH?
Although we should have about 36 DH plate appearances next year.
by mkorpal on Jan 14, 2009 2:54 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it should be PH...
I just entered those guys into the default category Sky had on his spreadsheet down there without changing the label. It shouldn’t really affect anything, last season the Rockies had 250 PA’s as PH.
by Rox Girl on Jan 14, 2009 2:59 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
just tried changing it...
And it screws up the results on the spreadsheet, but since we can project about 290 PH+DH appearances, I’m just going to leave it as is until Sky lets me know how to fix it without making everything else come out to a null set.
by Rox Girl on Jan 14, 2009 3:09 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn't really matter where you place players.
For specific PHs, feel free to put them under DH. For players who will play a lot in the field, but rack up some PH ABs when they don’t start, feel free to just give them more PAs under their actual position. If it all adds, up that’s great.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Jan 14, 2009 7:23 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I also don’t think the assumption that Atkins would be traded works. We can’t project the effectiveness of a return on a trade if we don’t know what it is. The numbers would be highly altered if we receive an effective player.
It would probably be best to assume no trades.
by mkorpal on Jan 14, 2009 3:01 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
So how would you break down the PA's in a no-trade scenario?
If we do hang on to Atkins, how do you divide playing time with him, Stewart, Baker and everybody else given their positions?
by Rox Girl on Jan 14, 2009 3:11 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Possible trade
I see mkorpal’s point. Assuming Atkins will be traded is fine, but how do you account for what we get in return? I have to think we’d get at least someone who would contribute in the majors, but there’s no way to account for that in projections since we can’t just guess a random player. Might as well stick with Atkins the whole year rather than taking him out of the equation part way through when we have no way of projecting for an unknown return.
Any trade is going to skew the projections no matter what you do, though. So it’s a tricky proposition.
by holly96 on Jan 14, 2009 5:11 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I could see that, with my current projections the result means Atkins goes for prospects.
I’ll give him his 650 PA’s then, but I still have to figure out at who’s expense.
by Rox Girl on Jan 14, 2009 6:03 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m thinking that Stewart will be the starting left fielder now unless he just can’t play it defensively. He would play 3B for the 100 AB’s that Atkins will be forced to play at 1B, but Atkins will get the lions share of 3B. Smith will start in LF when Stewart is at 3B and Atkins is at 1B. At least that is how I envisioned it.
by mkorpal on Jan 14, 2009 5:25 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Stewart
My understand is that Helton won’t be back until Mayish, leaving us with
C Iannetta
1B Atkins
2B Barmes
SS Tulo
3B Stewart
LF Smith
CF Spills
RF Hawpe
And when Helton back, Stew plays 3B, 2B, and LF.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 14, 2009 5:53 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I hadn’t heard Mayish. I knew that Spring Training was doubtful, but I thought he was still on track to be back in April. Either way, it’s only a month missed.
by mkorpal on Jan 14, 2009 5:55 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I think there are some varying interpretations of that RMN piece
To me, it read that the goal of his rehab is to be ready to play by Opening Day, not to be ready to play by the beginning of Spring Training. That still says to me that he expects to be available beginning of April and I didn’t read into it that he expected to lose regular season games, but I did think that if they were cutting it that close that there’s little room for error and any setback at all would delay him.
I am scaling back his PA’s quite a bit at any rate, obviously, should I take back more? And do people find the CHONE projections accurate?
by Rox Girl on Jan 14, 2009 6:00 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Even if Todd is ready by opening day
(which I don’t think is a given at this point), hasn’t Hurdle vowed to rest him more this year? If so, are 500 PAs the right number?
by pedalpusher on Jan 14, 2009 10:53 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
My view
If you think there’s a 60% chance of a trade, project Atkins over a full season and a half season, then take a 60/40 weighted average. We should try to be as accurate as possible.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Jan 14, 2009 7:24 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone know
How CHONE is calculated? the guys on Fangraphs surmise it’s just normalizing BABIP, but I don’t know.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 14, 2009 4:18 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
I'm really not sure other than it's a different engine than what brings about ZiPS or Marcels
He’s added some nuances to tweak it since he first came out with it a couple years ago, but I haven’t been able to find where he explains it.
by Rox Girl on Jan 14, 2009 5:56 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Marcels isn't terribly complicated
I was reading that it’s really just weighted averages of the past 3 seasons, and that it isn’t very good at predicting counting stats among a group, but moreso averages among said groups. For example, it pegs HR leaders completely wrong, but if you average the top 10 projections and the top 10 actuals, it’s pretty close. So Ryan Howard might not actually hit 50 dingers next season, but he’ll be part of a group that’ll average like 48-52!
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 14, 2009 6:08 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
It's meant to be so easy a monkey could do it....
Or maybe so easy a mime could do it, hence the tongue in cheek name.
by Rox Girl on Jan 14, 2009 6:50 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh wow
I never even THOUGHT about Marcel Marceau
Good catch on that one
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 14, 2009 6:54 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
*ahem*
I made that joke like 2 weeks ago…. ::feels neglected::
"Of course, it’s downright frightening to imagine how two Adam Dunns would turn the double play." - Joe Posnanski
by DbacksSkins on Jan 14, 2009 8:18 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Its okay Skins, I saw it.
lol :)
by Brendan Scolari on Jan 15, 2009 2:54 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Most good projection systems (like CHONE) take Marcel to the next step.
They use better weightings, more data, minor league data, more adjustments, etc. Sean has not distributed the details of his system, but it performs as well as anything out there and it and PECOTA are usually insignificantly better than the rest of the pack.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Jan 14, 2009 7:26 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
I’ll admit that I barely understand any of the projections stuff (some of this is way over my head, and I haven’t really taken the time to really learn it), so I’m mostly looking at how you have the playing time divided. My question is how many PAs would any one player realistically have over the course of a season, assuming no injuries and a minimum of bench time? Looking at the total PAs for everyone, the person on there with the most is Spilborghs, with 700. Is that realistic? Is that because he’d be leading off, so he’d naturally get that much more? Or should we maybe throw a few more PAs to Gonzalez or even add in Podsednik?
by holly96 on Jan 14, 2009 4:46 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
I filled this out before I knew we were going to sign Posednik...
Last season, Atkins led the team with 664 PA’s, but he never batted higher than fourth, so somebody like Spilborghs, who would likely lead off or bat second most days, could definitely be expected to pick up more if he plays about as many games (155). The Rockies will have more PA’s than they had last season anyway since their team OBP is projected to be considerably higher. An average leadoff slot for the NL would get 730 PA’s, a team with an OBP as high as the Rockies might get up to 760 from what they were saying at Beyond the Boxscore.
by Rox Girl on Jan 14, 2009 5:50 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
We don't really have a leadoff candidate, do we?
I mean, it’ll be spilborghs, but even he’s not really ideal. I mean, if he can run bases and run somewhat fast, wheeee
So who’s our #3 hitter
uhhhh
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 14, 2009 6:13 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Lineup?
Spilly
Helton (when healthy)
Tulo
CDI
Hawpe
Atkins
Stewart
Barmes/Baker
I think Helton has to bat second because he gets on base more than anyone on the team. Tulo then bats in the larger run producing spot #3 with the “power” coming after him, although if he hits as many doubles and HR’s as he did in ’07 count him as power. I put Atkins in front of Stewart because Ian is still young and does not quite have the experience and L/R/L/R sounds good. How does this look to everyone else?
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby
JFK
by jrockies on Jan 14, 2009 6:26 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
no way
There is no way Atkins bats seventh especially if he is on the trade market…that alone cuts his value significantly suggesteing the Rockies have lost faith is his bat. I don’t expect Helton’s back to be very healthy, but I will grant you him as a #2.
Spilly
Helton
Atkins
Hawpe
Ianetta
Stewart
Tulo
Barmes/Baker
You don’t want your #4 hitter changing every 4th game. While Ianetta is a good bet to hit cleanup in some games, rhythm is a big deal in baseball w2hich is why stats for how players bat in certain parts of the lineup are watched so closely. Stewart is going to have to prove his way up higher though I think #6 is just right for his first full season in the bigs. Tulo will bat second whenver Helton is out of the line-up which figures to be an awful lot. He reminds me so much of Mattingly, great bat, great defense and a career totally obliterated with back issues.
by brainteaser on Jan 15, 2009 8:25 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
With your lineup here, although it’s slightly ironic that you say
You don’t want your #4 hitter changing every 4th game.
given that Clint Hurdle likes to drop Brad Hawpe down a couple spots in the lineup when facing a LHP
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 15, 2009 8:34 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
I think there will be a little less of that this year, and I wouldn’t do it, at least your roles are a little more defined in the NL. Your lead-off guy and second hitter are typically your 7-8 hitters when young or slumping. You flop your 6 and 3 hitters on occasion and if you are a lineup junkie your 4 and 5. There are just some unspoken guidelines that are time-tested and why try to disprove them like the ridonculous approach of hitting your pitcher #8.
In the AL, there is only one approach…get a leadoff hitter and 8 power hitters.
by brainteaser on Jan 15, 2009 8:59 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay
That makes sense. I still wonder if Gonzalez and/or Podsednik might get a few more PAs, though I don’t know whether I’d take any from Spilly or Fowler or both. I think I just feel like we’re in a bit of a transition this season when it comes to CF, so things might not end up skewing so heavily one way. But it all depends on performance, so you probably know better than I do.
by holly96 on Jan 14, 2009 6:32 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I actually think how it will wind up could be closer to what you say...
Although I run into the problem of if Spilly is playing this well, why would the Rockies wish to take him out for the inferior player? They wouldn’t, of course, particularly in a division like this where we should be right in the thick of things, so we would either have to tweak Fowler’s projections higher or Spilly’s lower, or maybe move him into left more as the season went along to make sense of changing the playing time like that.
by Rox Girl on Jan 14, 2009 6:48 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't go higher
than like 300PA for Fowler, and that’s my upper end.
I figure Spilborghs is a fulltime player, and having him batting leadoff or #2 for a majority of these PAs, I’d put him somewhere between 600-700PAs on the season. I don’t know anyone who’d supplant him in the lineup.
I’d put the 4th OF at like 250PA and the 5th at 175PA.
Barmes at about 400, Baker at 300
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 14, 2009 7:11 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
I love that this discussion is going on, especially with so many people who admittedly haven't looked at things this way before.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Jan 14, 2009 7:27 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Not sure how to take that
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 14, 2009 8:11 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
This thread will extend infinitely unless we break down exactly what we believe is going to happen (if our beliefs are shown to be completely off once the season starts, but the logic was sound, it can still be taken as a positive – after all, our beliefs can be wrong due to illogical managing decisions).
The Rockies have a few big messes that make this sort of task probably really trivial, but still really fun to do anyway. But every team has it’s share of messes so we’re not so different from any other club for the purposes of this exercise.
I think your projections for the bounceback season candidates are perfectly fine (maybe optimistic, but cautiously/reasonably so).
At 2b, Barmes is getting far and away the most time. Part of me thinks that Stewart might play there more because if Helton is back, Stewart will be bouncing between 3 positions or just benched (almost makes me want to see him in the minors instead of an MLB defensive position pinball). I’d rather see him in AAA than just benched. And Barmes figures to be somewhat poor offensively, so I see either Baker getting some more time, or (preferably) Stewart getting more time at 2b.
If Helton is back somewhere in April, Atkins should be playing 3b fulltime. He shouldn’t be bounced around or benched because he should be given every opportunity to boost his value for the trading (either with a hot start, or just simply not playing as poorly as he did last season). What this means is that Stewart shouldn’t really be playing much 3b if Helton is back and effective until and if Atkins is traded, thus really limiting Stewart to LF or 2b.
Having Atkins traded for prospects I think is a fine assumption here – since this entire task is based off assumption, I can’t really say why this assumption would be any more illogical than any other assumption, at best we would name this projection “Rockies 2009 season projection assuming Atkins is traded” as opposed to the same title minus the last part.
Also, how certain are we that Smith is the starting LF? I’m sold on Spilly in CF, and there’s no reason to move Hawpe, but although Smith is the logical choice to play LF, are we sure he is actually going to? It could make sense to platoon Stewart and Smith since while they’re both lefty, Stewart has shown a great ability to hit lefties – although that also seems like the type of move that could get in players’ head.
Okay, I think I’m done for now since it’s almost 2am and this post has gone on long enough. I would like to add a final point that with what I wrote above I’m not necessarily saying any of Rox Girl’s predictions should be changed, these are just some of the things I thought about that may or may not impact playing time distribution
by Resolution on Jan 14, 2009 11:50 PM MST reply actions 0 recs





















