Friday Rockpile: (More) Josh Fogg rumblings, future Rockies HOFers, and arbitration time
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jan 16, 2009 7:47 AM MST
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PrintThomas Harding offers his take on the non-roster invitees. He mentioned something that we have been hearing for the entirety of the off-season - the possible return of Josh Fogg. On one hand, I somewhat agree with the statement "a team can never have too many pitchers," but on the other hand, it's hard to agree when most of those pitchers are mediocre. Sure, Rockies fans will never forget Fogg's gutsy performances during the '07 stretch run, but is this a guy that the team can honestly count on to be a solid starting pitcher? I guess that remains to be seen. Harding also goes on to say that Matt Belisle (one of the non-roster invitees) is the type of guy that has experienced success with the Rockies in the past. Belisle, while never consistent, does seem to have the abilitly to be a solid Major Leaguer. His best year was with Cincinnati in 2007, when he posted an 8-9 record with an 88 ERA+ in a touch over 170 innings. Belisle had a decent K/BB ratio (2.91), but allowed entirely too many baserunners (1.44 WHIP). Hopefully, Belisle turns out more like Fogg and less like Kip Wells or Josh Towers.
Tracy Ringolsby checks in with a breakdown of former Rockies players who will be eligible for the Hall of Fame in the next few years. Out of the crop (which also includes Rockies greats Ellis Burks, Vinny Castilla, and Eric Young; not to mention not-so-greats Todd Zeile, Charles Johnson, and Jose Hernandez), the guys with the best (and only) chance seem to be Andres Galarraga and Larry Walker. The Big Cat is eligible next season, while Walker will make his HOF ballot debut in 2011.
Finally, Troy Renck provides a list of Rockies who filed for arbitration yesterday. As expected, GM Dan O'Dowd says that the club is prepared to participate in hearings for each case, though the Rockies have let things progress to that point only 3 times in the history of the franchise.
Eat. Drink. Be Merry. But the above FanPost does not necessarily reflect the attitudes, opinions, or views of Purple Row's staff (unless, of course, it's written by the staff [and even then, it still might not]).
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In Ringlesby Notes
He mentions that with the addition of Jason Marquis de Sade in the mix we now have 5 pitchers for the 5th spot: Jorge De La Rosa, Hirsch, Greg Smith, Franklin Morales, and Reynolds. He pointed out that only Reynolds has options left. If that’s accurate, then what do we need Fogg for? (unless he really wants to pitch for awhile in Col. Springs).
I don’t want to lose any of those 4 with out options to a waiver claim.
I assume Tracy is looking at a rotation of:
Cook
Jimenez
Francis
Marquis De Sade
OPEN BATTLE
"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009
Marquis
if he’s putting Marquis in the mix for the 5th spot, he’s really leaving the 4 and 5 open.
Marquis, DLR, Hirsh, Smith, Morales, Reynolds, and I wouldn’t rule out Belisle, Rusch, or any of those other “depth” guys that we’ll pick up on MLC’s.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 16, 2009 8:28 AM MST up reply actions
* With the addition of right-hander Jason Marquis, the Rockies will face an interesting decision in filling the fifth spot in their rotation from among left-handers Jorge De La Rosa, Greg Smith and Franklin Morales and right-handers Jason Hirsh and Greg Reynolds. Reynolds is the only one with an option remaining, meaning the Rockies would risk losing any of the others on waivers if they don’t keep them in the big leagues. The front four in the rotation seems set with Aaron Cook, Ubaldo Jimenez, Jeff Francis and Marquis, depending on how Francis bounces back from shoulder problems that cut short his 2008 season.
He’s assuming Marquis gets a rotation spot, and given his 9 million dollar contract, I’d assume that as well. (I mean we aren’t the Dodgers) That leaves 5 guys for 1 spot. Reynolds is out almost automaticly due to having options. Either Morales, Smith, DLR can go to the pen for long relief, maybe 2 of them but not all 3 of them.
I’m afraid, we are about to lose Jason Hirsch to waivers, as there is no way he clears and gets assigned.
"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009
Yeah I misread
I’d imagine Hirsh (no c!) to be our Taylor Buchholz from 07, the long reliever/spot starter, who in 2010 will magically become a blow-em-down late inning reliever.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 16, 2009 8:50 AM MST up reply actions
Is the bull pen big enough
for all of em?
(and as for my spelling…It’s lucky I didn’t spell Hirsh with a “z”…I was typing like a 13 year old written text message….before text messaging was invented!)
"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009
Not likely
If Spilly is your only guy on the roster capable of playing CF, it could cause problems (IMO he’s not a CF). I think that only leaves one more bullpen spot based on Hardings estimate – although Speier could be traded to freeup a spot to keep one more of those guys in the pen (Smith/Hirsh).
How long
do you think we can keep 26 or 27 guys on the roster (or off the roster but around) before anyone notices?
HA!
Just have them like stowed under bus seats and stuff
Seriously though, when a player gets sent down, he has to stay down for like 2 weeks before he can get called back up, barring injury or doom or whatever
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 16, 2009 9:36 AM MST up reply actions
Maybe the Rox can
keep 26 or 27 guys and get rid of their current slogan of “Generation R” or whatever that nonsense is and replace it with a “No Snitchin’” slogan. Word is bond and snitches get dealt with.
snitches get stitches
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 16, 2009 9:41 AM MST up reply actions
Ok...Hirsh
this week it’s your turn to be hurt…remember its your left ankle…so limp on the correct side…..Next week…….Smith……Smith what injury can you fake?…..Brain Tumor? Good one!
"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009
Wait, that would theoretically work
Right? Have someone (like Hirsh or whoever) on the DL until the inevitable strain/pull/tear/fracture/anal fissure(sorry Kaz) occurs ?
Theoretically Yes
it is however a violation of the Players Union contract, and Major League rules……if you get caught.
I had a friend that played WR with the N.O. Saints….Years ago, when Stabler was the QB…he said he knew his time was up when he went on the injured list…and he wasn’t injured…..so it happens
"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009
NFL teams used to stash players on IR routinely.
Heck, Joe Gibbs was famous for that tactic back when he was winning Super Bowls in the 80s and early 90s. Then came the salary cap….
"Of course, it’s downright frightening to imagine how two Adam Dunns would turn the double play." - Joe Posnanski
by DbacksSkins on Jan 16, 2009 10:20 AM MST up reply actions
Options
That’s not right. Morales and Hirsh both have one option year left, and Smith has three.
by Greg Stanwood on Jan 16, 2009 9:48 AM MST up reply actions
No problem bringing Fogg to ST
Especially on a non-guaranteed minor league contract. He’s familiar with the ball park and is a gritty performer. If he doesn’t make the rotation, easily could be waived. Plus, there’s always injuries that pop up before the opener. No downside to bringing him to Tucson.
Agreed
if it’s a zero risk contract, with nothing more than like a minor league stipend on the line, sure give it a shot.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 16, 2009 8:40 AM MST up reply actions
I really like the way this Rockpile was written
I didn’t even notice it wasn’t done by RG or Russ. Nice job.
Thank you very much.
All of the feedback is appreciated. And, Redhawk kind of elaborated on what I was eluding to. The Rox have a lot of pitchers competing for that 5th spot (with Marquis – as much as he is getting paid, you have to think that he will be solidified in the 4th spot unless he completely fails); most of which have a better upside than Fogg at this point (and all of them are at the very least at risk of being lost, with the exception of Reynolds, if they don’t make the big league club). The decision the Rockies need to make is whether or not they want to keep working with the upside guys (Morales, JDLR, Hirsh, etc.) or make an effort to win NOW. Hopefully, if one of the upside guys steps it up, they’ll be able to do both.
Rock rock 'til you drop!
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jan 16, 2009 8:52 AM MST up reply actions
Double Take
Nice Job OGB!!! Had to take another look when I noticed that your post was leading off the fan post. Presumed wrongly that RG had crafted. Now the pressure is on to repeat. GL!
TGFPR!!
I think it stinks
stinks stinks stinks
No it was good really. Good job stripping all the info possible out of that last quasi paragraph.
I hate how 3+ paragraphs are just fluff about their dogs or where they lived growing up, and then the last bit is all the interesting crap.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 16, 2009 9:03 AM MST up reply actions
Roster Spots
Just thinking about the last roster spots that Harding mentions. He has 21 that he considers locks – although mentions Francis and Speier as slightly less solid (Francis in that he needs to show he’s healthy in the spring first). So by his logic that leaves spots for 2 bench players and 2 pitchers. I’ll generally agree with this.
For the 2 bench players I imagine 1 will be an IF (ability to play good defense at SS or 2B), and one more outfield type, as he mentions probably a CF/PR type like Pods. As discussed yesterday I think playing Gonzalez and Fowler in AAA for at least the beginning of the year is probably the smart thing to do, let them earn their way on. The other benefit this could leave would be slowing down the service time clocks on either of them, should they pan out into something great. I don’t know enough about arbitration eligibility, service time or super-two players – but I do know that having Ryan Howard eligible for arbitration after 2 years sucked big time for the Phillies budget. So my hopes are for Omar and Pods for those last 2 spots, with either Gonzales or Fowler forcing their way into starting roles in May/June.
For the 2 pitching spots, I’m with RG hoping that JDLR shows his form from the end of last season and is more like a #3 in the #5 slot. I’d also like to see Morillo (who is out of options) show the command necessary to be effective. That leaves Hirsch and Rusch hanging in need of clearing waivers to make it back down to AAA – as Redhawk noted there is no chance of Hirsch clearing; also Smith and Morales – are they also really out of options as well? If so, the team may be better suited having one of these occupy that last bullpen spot.
I was thinking
with Fowler and CGonz being too raw for the majors yet, do you go LF (whoever) CF Fowler RF CGonz or switch ’em?
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 16, 2009 8:51 AM MST up reply actions
In AAA?
I would probably put CarGon in RF so at least you could take advantage of his arm, I guess you have Fowler shade a little to whichever side Gonzalez is not playing?
Yep Gonzalez in RF
assuming in the future, he bulks up, loses a little coverage, and Hawpe moves ot 1st to replace Helton
"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009
Hawpe
He is signed through 2010 it seems that maybe the option is declined and he either re-signs for a price more in line with what the market values his defense, or he takes that terrible defense elsewhere and McKenry is the every day 1B.
Mike McKenry?
We (Purple Row) talked about that situation a bit and I thought McKenry was the superior defender, therefore Iannetta=>1B
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 16, 2009 9:04 AM MST up reply actions
Joe Koshansky out of nowhere
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 16, 2009 9:12 AM MST up reply actions
HYPERADAMDUNN
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 16, 2009 9:18 AM MST up reply actions
Rusch wouldn't need to clear waivers...
Since he’s only on minor league contract, unless there was some specific wording to it tht says something different as was the case with Josh Towers last year or Brian Lawrence the year before.
I hear
they’ll have him working with Captain Earthman in the LF bleachers selling beer.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 16, 2009 9:30 AM MST up reply actions
um No...No....He didn't sell Popcorn at half-time
ok…so this really dates me….but that was the lead in to this song from 1976 Cheech and Chong song (actually safe for work!)
"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009
Yes
but usually there is a clause in the “Nor roster minor league contract invitee” that lets the veteran player not take the assignment to the minors, and become a free agent if he chooses.
Also there is an additional clause that he can walk if not added to the major league roster after a period of time, (like 30 days or on May 1st)
"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009
Is this confirmed
Or are you just basing it off of similar veteran contracts?
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 16, 2009 9:40 AM MST up reply actions
there's no way to make that sound like I'm not being accusatory. I'm not.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 16, 2009 9:40 AM MST up reply actions
those are "usually" standard contracts
with standard “outs”. I haven’t see too many that of the non roster invitees contracts that didn’t have them.
"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009
This is true.
It came up last season with Trot Nixon, when he failed to make our roster in ST. (He elected, instead, to stay with AAA Tucson, and was eventually traded to the Mets)
"Of course, it’s downright frightening to imagine how two Adam Dunns would turn the double play." - Joe Posnanski
by DbacksSkins on Jan 16, 2009 10:26 AM MST up reply actions
Not always...
Rusch and his agent talked with the team extensively before signing the contract about his expected role, but the fact that they agreed to the deal relatively early in the offseason leads me to suspect that there may in fact be a clause like that in the contract. I just don’t know one way or the other.
Well if he's not on the big league roster...
Then he can sign with anyone, even if he does accept AAA. Am I right?
Keepin' warm by the hot stove season.
unless he has an opt out like Towers or Lawrence, yes.
Which would make it seem like the likely scenario given the option situation of others. I think the team may wind up putting both Morales and either Smith or Hirsh in the bullpen (ahead of Rusch and Speier) but all three would seem impossible. The good news would be that all three have trade value, so it’s not likely that the Rockies will have a total loss in their decision.
yayyyyyyy
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 16, 2009 8:51 AM MST up reply actions
Morales isn't
He’s got two more years of minor league options, according to the answer to the question sixth from the bottom of the article here.
My guess is Smith is in the same boat.
Damn, Renck can be lazy and sloppy as hell when he’s talking about player options.
Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
MHCSports - Denver sports analysis from Denver sports fans
Er, Ringolsby can...
Although Renck’s made the same mistake before as well if I recall. There’s really no excuse for that.
Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
MHCSports - Denver sports analysis from Denver sports fans
yeah... no excuse...
<sheepishly ignoring fact that I’ve made the same mistake myself two or three times over by now>
None Of Them Are
Hirsh’s contract was purchased before the 2006 season, and was optioned down after ST. There’s one. In 2007 with the Rockies, he made the team out of ST, then got hurt and went on the DL, came back for a short time, then got DLed again. He was never option. In 2008, he was optioned after he came off the DL. That’s two options, so he should have one more.
Smith’s contract wasn’t purchased until last season when he was called up last year, and he was never optioned. He’s still got them all.
Morales’ contract was purchased before the 2007 season. He was optioned in both 2007 and 2008, leaving one year left.
by Greg Stanwood on Jan 16, 2009 9:52 AM MST up reply actions
whew, glad that's cleared up then...
With the RMN likely not printing for much longer beyond today or tomorrow, I imagine fact checkers are one of the first casualties. Ringolsby himself probably has a lot on his mind right now.
He has to try out first
and the pay is a little less then he was getting as a HOF writer
"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009
Oh... that's been my problem...
I don’t spend enough time on the street to see the payout. It all makes so much sense now.
Bingo
I’m sure you could walk through the hardest neighborhoods of Ohio and not get touched. Mad hood stripes.
Watch out for tax-hawking plumbers, though.
"Of course, it’s downright frightening to imagine how two Adam Dunns would turn the double play." - Joe Posnanski
by DbacksSkins on Jan 16, 2009 11:29 AM MST up reply actions
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