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The Greg Smith Conundrum

If you are Clint Hurdle and you have Greg Smith as a flyball pitcher in your rotation and Coors Field as your park....

A) Do you pitch Greg Smith on the 5 day rotation or...

B) Do you just try to make Smith pitch on the road and/or against teams that suck at hitting homeruns when he has to pitch at home or...

C) Hope to God Dan O'Dowd trades him quick.

I'm leaning towards option B/C but I don't know if anything like that has ever been done in baseball.

Eat. Drink. Be Merry. But the above FanPost does not necessarily reflect the attitudes, opinions, or views of Purple Row's staff (unless, of course, it's written by the staff [and even then, it still might not]).

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Frankly, before you even start you need to show conclusively that Smith is a flyball pitcher

Last season saw him have the highest flyball % of his professional career, in three seasons in the minors his career split was 44.2% GB, 14.5% LD, and 35.7% FB. Are you certain that his showing in Oakland was a verifiable fact for what we can expect for his MLB career, or was it just a fluke?

Second, the idea that a flyball pitcher will automatically fail at Coors needs further investigation, particularly since the humidor era started. The Rockies most FB prone pitchers last season to get any significant chunk of innings included Luis Vizcaino, Taylor Buchholz, Brian Fuentes. The year before they also included Ramon Ramirez and Jason Hirsh. You can’t point simply to the flyball rate to predict how a pitcher’s going to do at Coors Field.

I think a lot of people are looking past Greg Smith because of old wives tales both with his pitching and with Coors Field. Let’s see some legitimate evidence before jumping to any conclusions here.

by Rox Girl on Jan 30, 2009 1:50 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

If I didn't know better

I think we are all getting antsy for the season to began. Hopefully, we can stop discussing stats. Rox Girl, where do you find those stats for Smith?

by lizardlad01 on Jan 30, 2009 2:22 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

MinorLeagueSplits.com

Click on Smith’s Career Stats to see his career batted ball splits.

by Rox Girl on Jan 30, 2009 2:43 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

To present a counterpoint

Smith hasn’t found that control yet. All levels of the minors, he showed good control and good HR/9, with average K rates to go with them. Now that he’s hit the majors, he looks like he’s really filled out, right?

Well, he walked too many, and really benefited from McAfee really being a pitcher’s park this year.

I’m working on something here, just you wait.

Follow me on Twitter! http://www.twitter.com/rockiesmagicnum

by Andrew Martin on Jan 30, 2009 3:54 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure what you mean by "really filled out"

In fact, I’m arguing the exact opposite, I say he’s still growing into the pitcher he could be and what was a somewhat typical rookie season last year should not be considered anything more than a data point on that journey to him becoming whatever it is he’ll be.

There are certain lucky aspects to his performance which everybody sees and talks about such as the McAfee park factor, but on the other hand there’s evidence that he was still developing as an MLB pitcher which as he progresses (increases his GB, reduces the BB) should nullify some or even much of the regression he’s going to experience in other luck (his pick-off/strand rate for instance) and park factors.

by Rox Girl on Jan 30, 2009 4:56 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Can I call you "The Sheriff"?

You don’t let anyone get away with nothin’ in your county. It’s not like it’s just a fanpost, but still it needed proper backing instead of just spouting off some crazy argument. Cause that’s when RG steps in and lays down the law!! BTW its hot that you can talk about baseball with such authority, but that’s what we expect from the Western Slope. Way to represent!!!

Keepin' warm by the hot stove season.

by Charlie77 on Jan 30, 2009 9:45 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

It's taken a lot of time for me to develop that feeling of authority...

I’m not sure exactly when I became so confident in being able to write about baseball and not sound like a complete idiot. Every now and then, I’ll lapse into idiocy, of course. Hopefully, I’m not too much of a lay down the law type that people will be too afraid to call me out for it.

by Rox Girl on Jan 31, 2009 8:07 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

When you lapse

is usually followed by Russ showing up.

by rockieprogress on Jan 31, 2009 9:03 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

true that,

Glad he’s here to keep me and my ego in check.

by Rox Girl on Jan 31, 2009 10:03 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Me and NORAD.

I was able to contract with them to track your ego.

"If we never try, we shall never succeed." - Abraham Lincoln

Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!

by Russ Oates on Jan 31, 2009 10:17 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Tracking RG's ego by satellite?

Have you tried doppler radar? Sometimes it moves in like a storm.

Keepin' warm by the hot stove season.

by Charlie77 on Jan 31, 2009 1:03 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey now you two,

My ego’s on to these tactics and has adjusted its infiltration strategy accordingly. We’re all about guerilla tactics now.

by Rox Girl on Jan 31, 2009 2:12 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

That explains..

The camo pants and the bamboo plant in your office.


I like this look, you should go with it.

Keepin' warm by the hot stove season.

by Charlie77 on Feb 2, 2009 12:33 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

that outfit blends right in

In almost any environment. People rarely even know I’m there.

by Rox Girl on Feb 2, 2009 6:18 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm saying he doesn't have a fantastic K rate.

He puts a lot of balls into play, and there’s no reason to assume he suddenly becomes a groundballing whiz. I don’t think I need to emphasize further the problem that a fly ball pitcher will have in Coors, and I certainly don’t just mean because of the thin air. Our defensive strength is the infield, and if Smith can’t keep the ball there, it’s going to be trouble.

Thing is, he’s 25. I know there isn’t a cutoff age where a pitcher suddenly stops developing, but I also don’t see why I shouldn’t think he isn’t at or nearing his plateau.

I’m running numbers (at some point here) and I want to predict what Smith is gonna do.

Follow me on Twitter! http://www.twitter.com/rockiesmagicnum

by Andrew Martin on Jan 31, 2009 5:05 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

the lapse in response wasn't a "Oh man I got called out oh man I'd better split"

I left my big spreadsheet that I was working on – instead of working – on my work computer and then I hat all these things going on yesterday night

you know plus I had to cry and such

Follow me on Twitter! http://www.twitter.com/rockiesmagicnum

by Andrew Martin on Jan 31, 2009 5:18 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Greg Smith

So far what I’ve heard and read about Greg Smith is that he is a round peg in a square hole. He’s a lefty, and that’s always good, but he’s a soft tossing lefty, that in his first year, had a fly ball tendency. I don’t think being a fly ball pitcher is that bad of thing with the humidor because Coors does have a huge OF, but the soft tossing part with the fly ball combo scares me.

Now does he have the stuff to be a lefty reliever? If he does, and would..then I think he could be valuable to the Rockies. At least one if not 2 of Smith, Rush, Morales are needed to be relievers this year.

"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009

by Redhawk on Jan 31, 2009 10:21 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

What about Francis?

He’s a soft-tossing lefty…AND he looks like he’s 14…he’s been alright

"Winning doesn't really matter as long as you win." - Vinny Jones

by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 31, 2009 11:43 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not a big Francis fan either

I don’t think a soft tossing pitcher will work long term in Coors Field. They have to have pin point control, or major breaks on breaking stuff….both are hurt at elevation (actually control is hurt because the pitcher is constantly adjusting to elevation and sea level)

I think Francis could have a nice long career…but not with the Rockies

"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009

by Redhawk on Jan 31, 2009 12:11 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Long term meaning?

Francis now has four plus seasons at Coors Field in which he’s put up a 4.51 ERA compared to an NL average of 5.23 at Coors over those seasons. Four years of performance isn’t exactly a short term fluke anymore.

by Rox Girl on Jan 31, 2009 12:31 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Long term meaning

how long a soft tossing lefty can have as an extended career (see Jamie Moyer). Francis has done well at Coors Field, and actually worse on the Road…which is part of my point of the adjustments to and from sea level. I think they will affect a soft tossing pitcher more.

Any Rockie pitcher should have a better ERA at Coors Field then the NL average..as they are used to the adjustments that have to be made. Not saying it’s easy or that it’s not an adjustment…but they would be doing it every couple of weeks…while most NL pitchers would do it only once…and I would assume not be use to it.

In fact I really think Francis would be a very good pitcher Iif he’s healthy) for say the Mariners, or the A’s then he ever would be for the Rockies. And while this could be said about any pitcher, I think it goes double for a soft tossing lefty. It’s why when I say we should trade Jeff, I usually add….“and we shouldn’t look back as he goes on to have a very good career”

"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009

by Redhawk on Jan 31, 2009 6:43 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Does Smith have any options?

If he does, what does everyone think his chances of breaking camp are? I know we have a bunch of pitching depth right now, and I think the guys with options are needing an exceptional spring to break camp.

Also, any tips on finding out who still has options?

by BlakeBomber on Jan 31, 2009 11:34 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

I'm glad you brought this topic up

It made me develop my own projection system.

Greg Smith benefitted greatly from a very low .258 BABIP last season in Oakland.

Normalizing his BABIP to Coors’ .315 average BABIP, adjusting his HR/9 to reflect half his starts in Coors, and guessing on him reaching 175 IP this season, Smith is projected to put up an ERA just a shade above 5.

A lot of this comes down to how well his K rates and BB rates pare out.

Follow me on Twitter! http://www.twitter.com/rockiesmagicnum

by Andrew Martin on Jan 31, 2009 11:44 PM MST reply actions   0 recs

Smith vs Cook

He actually had two comparable stats to Aaron Cook. His Whip and SLG against would have ranked him near the top of the Rockies staff in ’08:

_______Whip_____SLG
Smith…. 1.35………. .403
Cook….. 1.34……….. .410
Uball……1.43……….. .348

Keepin' warm by the hot stove season.

by Charlie77 on Jan 31, 2009 11:57 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Smith doesn't get as many groundballs as Cook or Baldo

Like I mentioned, his BABIP is very low, and he was pitching half of his games in a very pitcher friendly McAffee Coliseum.

You raise a good point with the WHIP, but I’m predicting a 1.52 WHIP for our boy next season.

Follow me on Twitter! http://www.twitter.com/rockiesmagicnum

by Andrew Martin on Feb 1, 2009 12:12 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd be much much more concerned for Jason Hirsh than Smith.

I think Greg might surprise us. Another thing I looked at in his minor league career is an unusually high infield fly rate (14.9) which he carried through to last season (13.9) in Oakland. If you look at the profiles of pitchers he’s similar to, like Jamie Moyer in particular, or also Ted Lilly and Doug Davis, they consistently have higher than average IF/F rates. It means that even in Coors, Smith will have a lower than typical BABIP. If his GB and overall FB rates move all the way to his minor league average, it would also mean he allows no more outfield flies on his balls in play than Jimenez. Of course he wouldn’t be striking out as many as U-ball, but he would be an effective middle rotation pitcher. I suspect his GB and FB rates will settle for him at somewhere between what he did last season and his minor league lines, but I think you’re overemphasizing the park effects and not looking closely enough at the profile of the pitcher himself.

Both Moyer and Davis had higher BB rates than Smith in their age 25 seasons, btw, and both made significant improvements in the next couple of seasons after that. The Mariners are obviously hoping that Garrett Olson becomes Moyer 2.0 for them this year. The development of crafty lefties isn’t a quick process, but if Smith shows no signs of progression in that walk rate this season (or if we don’t see his FB rates coming back down toward his minor league average and his GB rate heading up) than I think it would be safe to leave him in the margins, but if he does show the improvement his predecessors did, than I think the Rockies will have made off with a real steal from Oakland.

by Rox Girl on Feb 1, 2009 6:55 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Well the thing is we can't just ignore park effects

And which elements of the pitcher profile can we really cite with any confidence? I have trouble bringing minor league batted ball rates into account when projecting a major league season. I’m not saying they don’t count, but how do you weigh them? That pitch that he got Jason Smith to pop straight up in AAA might be just the pitch that Rick Ankiel was looking for in Busch.

With projections, so many of these miniscule events end up being statistically irrelevant, as it affects the HR/9 or whatever by like .08 HR/9, which doesn’t really change anything, unless the guy pitches 100 more innings in a season.

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt in terms of BABIP, and rather than just saying “OK HIS BABIP IS .315 NOW OK” I’ll go ahead and at least weigh it against McAffee and Coors.

Even so, that isn’t going to change his DIPS or FIP projections, but I have him with an xERA of 4.61 (as xERA does take Hits into account). That’s plenty good to stay in the rotation.

I’m not trying to sink Smith here and say he’ll be terrible, just that if we expect much, we’ll be very disappointed.

Follow me on Twitter! http://www.twitter.com/rockiesmagicnum

by Andrew Martin on Feb 1, 2009 10:25 AM MST reply actions   0 recs

darnit I thought I replied to roxgirl. I just woke up.

Follow me on Twitter! http://www.twitter.com/rockiesmagicnum

by Andrew Martin on Feb 1, 2009 10:25 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

The problem I've always had with park effects is...

If you’re going to punish a player for playing half of his games in Coors Field, then reward him for the games he plays in the NL West sloths of Petco, ATT, Chavez Ravine. Although starting pitchers aren’t affected as much as hitters road/home splits because they pitch every 5 days. There still lies a significant advantage for pitchers to play so many games in those three stadiums because of the unbalanced schedule.

Keepin' warm by the hot stove season.

by Charlie77 on Feb 1, 2009 11:37 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Precisely

"Winning doesn't really matter as long as you win." - Vinny Jones

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 1, 2009 1:38 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't just say OMG COORS and adjust everything for Coors

I’m assuming 50% Coors 50% Average, so it’s weighted as HR heavy in Coors and HR average in EveryWhereElse. He only has a HR/9 of 1.23 on the season, which is not bad at all.

Half his starts at Coors, half at EveryWhereElse. I think I made a fair adjustment. I’m honestly not trying to beat up on Smith, just portray him accurately.

Follow me on Twitter! http://www.twitter.com/rockiesmagicnum

by Andrew Martin on Feb 1, 2009 3:10 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

Here's an example of how Cookies avg's are pulled by Coors and NL West

2008
_Cook____ERA_Whip_SLG
Coors……… 4.19/ 1.27/ .392
ATT………… 0.00/ 1.71/ .536
Chavez……. 1.03/ 0.88/ .231
Petco……… 2.08/ 1.08/ .392
————————————————————-
2008………. 3.96/ 1.34/ .410

Keepin' warm by the hot stove season.

by Charlie77 on Feb 1, 2009 11:35 PM MST up reply actions   0 recs

OK?

I don’t know what that means, so I’m going to assume you’re disagreeing with me or something.

Cook is a groundballer. He doesn’t give up a lot of home runs, either. That’s the way he pitches.

He made 16 starts in Coors Field. I think you can trust those numbers, provided you’re just talking about the 2008 season

He made 2 starts in Chase Field
He made 2 starts in PetCo
He made 1 start in Dodger Stadium
He made 1 start in AT&T Park.

Those sample sizes are FAR too small to try and say that Cook’s numbers are horribly deflated by pitching all of 4 starts in super pitcher friendly parks.

You’re also conveniently leaving out Chase Field, which plays as a hard hitter’s park too.

Cook’s 2 starts in Chase resulted in 11.0IP, a 6.55 ERA, 2.27 WHIP, and opponents batted 3.83 off of him.

You can’t just take 4 starts and say that the NL West is some pitcher’s paradise. Especially not with Aaron Cook. He’s not a normal pitcher. Very low K rates and very low HR rates mean he’s getting a lot of groundball contact, which has very little to do with the park you’re in. (What happens after contact may, however, but I’d wager it’s not statistically significant).

Here are ESPN’s park effects, pasted below.

Park Name Runs HR H 2B 3B BB
Coors Field (Denver, Colorado) 1.126 1.299 1.098 1.048 1.387 0.919
Chase Field (Phoenix, Arizona) 1.135 1.068 1.072 1.242 1.406 0.955
AT&T Park (San Francisco, California) 1.045 0.992 1.014 1.132 1.875 1.029
Dodger Stadium (Los Angeles, California) 0.842 0.857 0.892 0.866 0.425 0.891
Petco Park (San Diego, California) 0.796 0.743 0.896 0.78 0.931 1.024

More home runs were hit in Chase Field than the rest of the division. It was 2nd in the majors. Coors was 3rd. More home runs were hit in Coors Field than in 27 other ballparks in the majors. And all of those home runs were given up by pitchers. Yes, some were just more home run prone, period, but I’m going to need many multi-year data sets with statistically relevant amounts of innings pitched in Coors and then contrasted with other parks before you can convince me that park effects don’t change the result of batted balls. Because everything I’ve cited so far says they do.

Follow me on Twitter! http://www.twitter.com/rockiesmagicnum

by Andrew Martin on Feb 2, 2009 12:03 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

stupid late night typos

They batted .383 off of Cook in Chase Field, not 383%

Follow me on Twitter! http://www.twitter.com/rockiesmagicnum

by Andrew Martin on Feb 2, 2009 12:04 AM MST up reply actions   0 recs

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