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Let Us Have Peace (formerly "An exhortation")

I thought that during this afternoon and tonight I would have been able to read a good part of James Goldgeier and Michael McFaul's Power and Purpose: U.S. Policy Toward Russia After the Cold War and then watch the Broncos-Chargers game, but instead there was drama in today's Rockpile. I'll admit that I am to blame for some of it. I made a comment about the Rocky Mountain SABR site having a problem with Troy Renck. The unintended consequence of that was that it devolved into another accusatory discussion about traditional baseball observations/scouting/stats and those new wave stats.

It's a debate that we've had over the last several months, and it has usually devolved into name-calling and other personal attacks. This must stop. We can, we must debate this peacefully.

Now, I believe that I generally come off as pretty even-handed in all of this debate or not even have an opinion (or don't express it). But yes, I do come down on the side of the stats community. Still, I understand how members such as Redhawk, Sandlotkid8, BroJB, and other feel when trying to debate this topic. They feel marginalized and shouted down. I'm a student of military history and U.S. foreign relations. I doubt many of you know the debate that has gone on about the state of academic military history over the last twenty years or so, but there are similarities between the two debates.

In 1997, John Lynn published "The Embattled Future of Academic Military History" in The Journal of Military History (Vol. 61, No. 4 (Oct 1997), pp. 777-789). As Lynn explains, the future of academic military history looked bright with Michael Howard serving as the Regius Professor of Modern History at Oxford University throughout the 1980s, Yale created a chair for military history, and Duke and North Carolina created a joint program in the field that attracted top academics there. But this was really an illusion. The academic community still looked upon military historians as the discipline best forgotten. The "cutting edge" studies of cultural and women's history, for example, were valued, but the more applicable ones to current events, like military history, became marginalized.

Lynn demonstrates great wit when he recounts a story about a historian interviewing for a position at his university. The historian believed that analyzing the turnings of a chair could explain the world view of an entire group of refugees who arrived in New York. A colleague of Lynn's was astounded, but Lynn reminded him that chairs were for asses.

Universities have not filled their military history positions when the professors in those areas retire. They hire the new wave historians, like the chair guy.

Yet, academic military history can adapt. Lynn argues that culture and gender history can be incorporated into military history. Combat is at the heart of the discipline and those two "cutting edge" histories can add depth to it, but they do not overtake it. It will take time for academic military history to emerge from the shadows, but when it does the rewards will be great.

Like academic military history and historians, traditional observers of baseball are in the shadows waiting for the turnaround. BroJB wrote this in the comments today:

Stats folks view baseball in objective terms — i.e. you can judge a player’s value clearly based on statistical breakdowns.

Non-stats folks (I guess I fall in this realm) view baseball in subjective terms — e.g. he’s got great stuff; if he fixes that loop in his swing he’ll be an all-star; he plays hard and is a winner; he’s "clutch".

Of course, there’s a cross over. Statheads often make subjective observations, an non-statheads do look at stats.

The conflict often stems, from my point of view, from statheads feeling as if they own the "truth" because they have the numbers, and non-statheads chafing at this position. For example, as someone who watched almost every game, the vehemence with which the sabermetrics folks argued for Ianneta over Torrealba just made no sense. I saw both guys play game after game and it was really, really obvious to me which one needed to be in there down the stretch. Are there statistics that could be used to contradict this? Sure. And so sabermetricians, who believe they have objective truth on their side, don’t accept my position. And I, who formed an educated opinion from observing the games up close, can’t accept theirs.

Somewhat like Lynn, BroJB argues that "statheads" push to the side the "non-statheads" because they are not "cutting edge." But the underlying message of BroJB's is something that I think we all accept but don't pay attention to much: that this isn't an either-or decision. They complement each other and help give us a better overall view of everything.

Join me after the jump for more.

Star-divide

My problem with the stats community is when objectivity is thrown around. In 1988, Peter Novick's That Noble Dream: The "Objectivity Question" and the American Historical Profession examined how supposed objectivity in writing history isn't. Histories written during the First World War tended to portray the members of the Central Powers as historical villains and the like. Those historians who didn't were marginalized. And in the 1960s, the new wave of histories, as discussed above on Lynn's article, pushed aside the old histories because they didn't add anything of value, supposedly. In the end, objectivity in the historical profession is a non-starter. It is a noble dream, but only that.

Yes, objectivity exists in so much as "a" is a fact or that "b" happened, but when the stats community begins to argue with their numbers they are not being objective anymore. They are subjectively using their numbers to prove a point. There's nothing wrong with that, nor is there anything wrong with non-stats people arguing there view. It's that both sides to acknowledge that neither has the full answer.

Much of the synthetic work on American military history since 1973 is based on the work of Russell F. Weigley. I've mentioned Weigley several times on the site. In 1973, Weigley's The American Way of War: A History of United States Military Strategy and Policy first appeared. Even today, that work is the basis for military teaching at West Point and pretty much every U.S. military institution. The main argument for Weigley is that the American way of war has been of two strategies: attrition and annihilation. The former the American way of war up until the Civil War, the latter from the Civil War onward. But as with any argument, there is bound to be disagreement. In 2002, Brian McAllister Linn wrote an article in JMH revisiting Weigley's work. He argues that Weigley downplayed the importance of the interwar years between the Civil War and WWI, that the Civil War had an ambivalent impact on events during that time period. He spends the rest of the article demonstrating this and hoping Weigley would revise his work

Weigley responds to this criticism. Far from being defensive, he welcomes the criticism and states that he wouldn't revise his work. Not because he doesn't want to, but because he would need to write a totally new book. Unfortunately, Weigley died two years later in 2004 at the age of 74. However, his impact still endures. Recently, two works have come out trying to move beyond the Weigley thesis. One is from Linn, whose The Echo of Battle: The Army's Way of War argues that the American way of war has been more characterized by its peace-time thought. These views are seen in three categories of military thinkers: guardians, heroes, and managers. The other work, and I'll admit I have yet to read it, comes from John Grenier and his The First Way of War: American War Making on the Frontier, 1607-1814 . From what little I know of it, Grenier looks more at the way of war during the colonial era and argues that the Weigley thesis is wrong as a result of how wars were fought then, something Weigley left out of his work. But my professor says that in the end, Grenier makes the same argument that Weigley does, though Grenier does not admit it.

(I should, at this point, mention that my professor was one of Weigley's last students.)

One day there will be a military historian who is able to synthesize these various arguments on the American way of war and displace the Weigley thesis. I look forward to that day as much as Weigley would have. As for baseball, one day we will hopefully have a synthesis of how to argue baseball. Though I have a feeling that that will be about humans vs. robots.

Right now, Purple Row seems more like the early American Republic. We have the stats people as the Federalist Party and the nonstats people as the Democratic-Republican Party. I stand in the middle as George Washington. As the founder of this nation exhorted in his Farewell Address:

All obstructions to the execution of the laws, all combinations and associations, under whatever plausible character, with the real design to direct, control, counteract, or awe the regular deliberation and action of the constituted authorities, are destructive of this fundamental principle, and of fatal tendency. They serve to organize faction, to give it an artificial and extraordinary force; to put, in the place of the delegated will of the nation the will of a party, often a small but artful and enterprising minority of the community; and, according to the alternate triumphs of different parties, to make the public administration the mirror of the ill-concerted and incongruous projects of faction, rather than the organ of consistent and wholesome plans digested by common counsels and modified by mutual interests.

We must move beyond factionalism. We must, as Lincoln urged,

bind up [Purple Row's] wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves [...]

We are Rockies fans.

And if you are still reading this, I applaud and thank you.

2 recs  |  Comment 153 comments

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I fall somewhere in the middle...

but that doesn’t really matter. I lol’d.

Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.

by theoldgrizzlybear on Oct 19, 2009 8:10 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

thats more history than i have read since i was 16

I’m a definite “federalist” who recognizes the need for both factions yet has difficulty relating to the other side, usually because of the nature of a specific debate rather than an intolerance of the opposition.

Anyway, good work Russ (though no one obv twisted your arm to write about history. Does this mean I can lecture the row on groundwater remediation via soil vapor emission and air sparge systems?

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Oct 19, 2009 8:21 PM MDT via mobile reply actions   0 recs

If you can relate those

topics to the Rockies, have at it.

NEVER SURRENDER DREAMS

Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!

by Russ Oates on Oct 19, 2009 8:22 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

hmm i think ill strike out on that one

Baseball is way too fast to draw parallels

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Oct 19, 2009 8:31 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

In honor of Abe....

I suggest we seek the Los Angeles Better Angels of our Nature.

by BroJB on Oct 19, 2009 8:33 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

my problem is that lecturing the row on operations research

will basically break guys down to numbers and optimized lineups, rosters, minor leagues, etc.

I dream of a baseball machine with minimized shipping costs and centralized distribution points.

(kidding)

Hope got in my eyes

by Andrew Martin on Oct 19, 2009 11:04 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I always thought a career in OR would be fun

Ended up in another math-related field, but count me as wee-bit jealous

by Roberbola on Oct 20, 2009 1:25 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I feel I should have gotten college credit for reading that. :)

And I mean that in a good way.

I would take issue with your characterization of my post as saying "that “statheads” push to the side the ‘non-statheads’ because they are not ‘cutting edge’ That’s not really what I was getting it “Cutting edge” isn’t really the issue. Rather, it’s that neither side can accept the other side because they’re not wired to think the way the other side does.

It’s why scientists and ministers are often at odds, or why some people prefer intellectual indie rock and others primal heavy metal.

If I would characterize statheads’ atititudes toward non-statheads, perhaps I’s say “frustration”. Frustration that they believe they have unequivocal proof of something and then guys like me come along and say that it’s impossible to have unequivocal proof about something as equivocal as baseball.

Then it comes down to the usual stuff about one side having their heads stuck in calculators and one side depending on “feelings”.

I don’t think there’s a need to “solve” this here — it can’t be solved. If you’re right-brained, that’s who you are. If you’re left-brained, then you’re left-brained.

No need to fret – there are way worse things to disagree about.

by BroJB on Oct 19, 2009 8:26 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I guess

I did overstep on your argument a bit, but wouldn’t you agree that there’s a sense of “here’s a new stat we just created after working on the algorithm for three months that will prove I’m right over your old-time observations”?

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by Russ Oates on Oct 19, 2009 8:35 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure, I suppose.

And, to be fair, there’s a bit of “you damn kids get off my lawn” coming back at them from the nonstat side.

If anything, i get a bit annoyed by what I perceive as cherry-picking stats (including some frankly obscure ones) to make a point. The old axiom that “statistics can be twisted to prove anything” definitely came to mind during the never-ending Battle of the Catchers. I seriously doubt that anyone who’s ever drawn a paycheck in a MLB front office could watch Iannetta every day this season and come to the conclusion that he was performing well at the plate. And yet, sure enough, you can cobble together some statistics (while ignoring others) to make that case.

On the other hand, I’m perfectly willing to admit that my observations of players can be colored by subjective circumstances. A guy strikes out with the bases load in the 9th down by a run and I won’t care if he goes 3 for 4 the next night. I’ll still be ticked off about the failure, so I won’t give him his due. Works the other way around too — guy’s a hero one night, I’ll “give him a pass” if he’s 0 for 5 the next.

In other words, no one’s right and no one’s wrong. We just view things different ways.

by BroJB on Oct 19, 2009 8:46 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unless

you argue that the swirls on a chair can prove who’s better. Then you’re wrong.

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by Russ Oates on Oct 19, 2009 8:51 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Off-topic, but Warren from Empire Records has really changed the way we talk;

i.e. we have ‘read and learn’ being used as an actual asset of the site. Did he know the effect he would have?

"Don't tell me about the world. Not today. It's springtime and they're knocking baseballs around fields where the grass is damp and green in the morning and the kids are trying to hit the curve ball." -Pete Hamill

by Bryce on Oct 19, 2009 10:13 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I absolutely love that we're calling him Warren still

because it’s simply perfectly put

Hope got in my eyes

by Andrew Martin on Oct 19, 2009 11:19 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Especially ironic...

…given how much a stink bomb Empire Records laid at the box office.

Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave

by Mondogarage on Oct 20, 2009 7:57 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

This.

Rec’d.

Paleface Destro, wildly hacking destroyer of rallies.
Recovering Mets fan since 2007.

by Paleface Destro on Oct 19, 2009 11:04 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK I'll play along.

If PR is the early American Republic and you are George Washington, does that make RMN Alexander Hamilton and Redhawk Thomas Jefferson? I guess I’ll be Nathanael Greene since he was from RI.

What about Ben Franklin, John Hancock, and John Adams?

Maybe we can hand these out with end of season awards

I'm still hoping to wake up from that nightmare I had about the 9th inning of Game 4.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 19, 2009 8:53 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Rox Girl for Ben Franklin

since she is the elder statesman, err, woman, here.

NEVER SURRENDER DREAMS

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by Russ Oates on Oct 19, 2009 9:01 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

RG is more like Mercy Otis Warren..

whose anti-British and anti-Loyalist writings stirred its readers to action and led the colonies to Independence. At a time when women were supposed to watch the men work and take care of the children, Mercy wrote plays, essays and satires which influenced the people of the colonies. Next to Thomas Paine’s writings, Mercy’s role was just as important.

Fast-forward to the 21st century and try to name the number of influential female baseball writers of the past decade; Brandi Griffin’s name would most definitely be on that list.

Order a Rocktober t-shirt in time for the playoffs and donate to charity at:
Purple Row Cares

by Charlie77 on Oct 20, 2009 9:29 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Silverblood reminds me of Catharine Macaulay..

the British Republican whose writing was influential in both the American Revolution and French Revolution. She was a supporter of female education and enjoyed freedoms not usually associated with women of her day. Her scandalous affair with a minister caused the man to fall so hard for her that he erected a statue of her in the middle of his church!

Order a Rocktober t-shirt in time for the playoffs and donate to charity at:
Purple Row Cares

by Charlie77 on Oct 20, 2009 9:36 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

This stuff really isn't my thing.

Maybe I should read Gordon S. Wood’s new work.

NEVER SURRENDER DREAMS

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by Russ Oates on Oct 20, 2009 9:43 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

At least yoy get to be on the $10 bill

I'm still hoping to wake up from that nightmare I had about the 9th inning of Game 4.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 19, 2009 11:43 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

should say you (type fail)

I'm still hoping to wake up from that nightmare I had about the 9th inning of Game 4.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 19, 2009 11:44 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

This actually brings you the most interesting question of all

Who here is Aaron Burr?

I'm still hoping to wake up from that nightmare I had about the 9th inning of Game 4.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 19, 2009 11:47 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well

I’m JFK

JFK

by jrockies on Oct 20, 2009 12:31 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes, yes, you are

hey you need to help me teach this girl I’m seeing how to not throw like a girl

Hope got in my eyes

by Andrew Martin on Oct 20, 2009 12:37 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

tell me when and where

and I will see what I can do

JFK

by jrockies on Oct 20, 2009 12:41 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

The correct answer is

David Eckstein

Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave

by Mondogarage on Oct 20, 2009 7:58 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Russ, that was just well...a lot to digest...but brilliantly written

I think you should contact HBO for a sequel call it " John Adams – in the 21st Century on the Field of Dreams" or something.

Dear Rockies - 2009 NL Wild Card Champs. Best turnaround in MLB history for a team to win the Wild Card. Thank you for a wonderful rollercoaster of a season. Can't wait to do it again next year!!

Troy Tulowitzki - THE best SS in the game..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba - En Fuego!! (when hitting 6th or 7th)
Brad Hawpe- Big Bad Brad, I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utley's in a single bound!

by SDcat09 on Oct 19, 2009 9:14 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks.

I forced myself to limit the piece since I could have included so much more history.

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by Russ Oates on Oct 19, 2009 9:19 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

I can contribute something we'll all enjoy:

Dodgers lose on a walk-off double by Rollins, off Broxton. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I love Greg Reynolds. Deal with it, suckers.

by Silverblood on Oct 19, 2009 9:55 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Ooh, nice burn.

NEVER SURRENDER DREAMS

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by Russ Oates on Oct 19, 2009 9:58 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

Hell yeah

That was beautiful. I’m way down with the Phillies.

And, considering they just broke my heart in the NLDS, that’s quite a testament to their character. You just gotta like those guys.

And you gotta hate the Dodgers.

Bwahahaha indeed.

by BroJB on Oct 19, 2009 10:01 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

My heart is still broken

I liked Jayson Werth beforehand, now he’s still my enemy for a while.

But hey, anyone except the Dodgers, and at least the Phillies are NL. As in, we’ll have to root for them against the Yankees.

/ignores Russ’s inevitable “irrational Yankees hatred” response

//happily goes on hating the Yankees

I love Greg Reynolds. Deal with it, suckers.

by Silverblood on Oct 19, 2009 10:03 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Angels are not dead after that game today

I'm still hoping to wake up from that nightmare I had about the 9th inning of Game 4.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 19, 2009 10:04 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hopefully not

I could be down with a Phillies/Angels WS.

I love Greg Reynolds. Deal with it, suckers.

by Silverblood on Oct 19, 2009 10:05 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah that's not nearly as "offensive" as some of the other possibilities

I'm still hoping to wake up from that nightmare I had about the 9th inning of Game 4.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 19, 2009 10:06 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

And also in that case

I’d probably root for the Angels. I feel like it would make a nice ending to their season, and it would stop from having a repeat champ (I like the variety).

I love Greg Reynolds. Deal with it, suckers.

by Silverblood on Oct 19, 2009 10:07 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually scratch that

seeing as the Angels won in 02. I meant back-to-back.

I love Greg Reynolds. Deal with it, suckers.

by Silverblood on Oct 19, 2009 10:07 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would probably root for the NL in that case

but I could actually sleep at night if either of those teams lifted the World Series trophy.

I'm still hoping to wake up from that nightmare I had about the 9th inning of Game 4.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 19, 2009 10:09 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah I'd be okay with either, really

And may root against the Phillies just because that Game 4 really honestly left me heartbroken.

I love Greg Reynolds. Deal with it, suckers.

by Silverblood on Oct 19, 2009 10:10 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Me too

But I feel better if we lost to the Champs

I'm still hoping to wake up from that nightmare I had about the 9th inning of Game 4.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 19, 2009 10:11 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

We were the only LDS team not to get swept

and we fought ’em tooth and nail, but an unpredictable temptress is baseball…

Urgh. Thinking about it still kinda leaves that ache.

I love Greg Reynolds. Deal with it, suckers.

by Silverblood on Oct 19, 2009 10:12 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Everytime I think of it I get pissed

And I think about it everyday.

I will say, watching the Yanks and Dodgers lose in walkoffs does help though

I'm still hoping to wake up from that nightmare I had about the 9th inning of Game 4.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 19, 2009 10:15 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

That ache

won’t stop until opening day.

The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.

by rockieprogress on Oct 20, 2009 12:11 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hate=love

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by Russ Oates on Oct 19, 2009 10:05 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

Did I miss something?

How does hate=Love?

I'm still hoping to wake up from that nightmare I had about the 9th inning of Game 4.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 19, 2009 10:08 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Russlogic?

I love Greg Reynolds. Deal with it, suckers.

by Silverblood on Oct 19, 2009 10:08 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

It just does.

So if I write “I hate Silverblood” I mean “I love Silverblood.” They’re two sides of the same coin.

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by Russ Oates on Oct 19, 2009 10:13 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

No they're not

You’re just trying to get away with clandestinely insulting me.

I’M ONTO YOU

I love Greg Reynolds. Deal with it, suckers.

by Silverblood on Oct 19, 2009 10:13 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, that's it, girl.

I’m really just taking a dig at you.

NEVER SURRENDER DREAMS

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by Russ Oates on Oct 19, 2009 10:17 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

OH I KNEW IT

SIC HIM BOYS

I love Greg Reynolds. Deal with it, suckers.

by Silverblood on Oct 19, 2009 10:18 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let me put it in different terms

I despise the Yankees

I'm still hoping to wake up from that nightmare I had about the 9th inning of Game 4.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 19, 2009 10:19 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Its not hate , its just good sense!!

Dear Rockies - 2009 NL Wild Card Champs. Best turnaround in MLB history for a team to win the Wild Card. Thank you for a wonderful rollercoaster of a season. Can't wait to do it again next year!!

Troy Tulowitzki - THE best SS in the game..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba - En Fuego!! (when hitting 6th or 7th)
Brad Hawpe- Big Bad Brad, I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utley's in a single bound!

by SDcat09 on Oct 19, 2009 10:21 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is true

Although at the game 2 on Saturday night there was disdain in my heart.

I'm still hoping to wake up from that nightmare I had about the 9th inning of Game 4.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 19, 2009 10:24 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

This game was eerily similar to our own game # 4 against the Phillies

I can empathize with the Dodgers fans who were counting on their normally reliable closer to get one more out and preserve the win.

Here’s to hoping that Tulo will see what Rollins did in the 9th with 2 outs and have his own moment(s) next year.

by ddavis539 on Oct 19, 2009 10:12 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

+999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999

I'm still hoping to wake up from that nightmare I had about the 9th inning of Game 4.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 19, 2009 10:13 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Except ours was worse

Because we were at home and thus it didn’t end sudden-death, we still had to sit through that last flicker of hope when we got a couple runners on and had Tulo up against Lidge…

urgh. I’m gonna go back to repressing it now.

I love Greg Reynolds. Deal with it, suckers.

by Silverblood on Oct 19, 2009 10:15 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

It’s hard to see the Angels and Phillies get home walkoff victories today, and thinking about what could have been. Just one more key hit in the 9th and that would’ve been the Rockies celebrating….

by ddavis539 on Oct 19, 2009 10:25 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I want to go over to TBLA and tell them I know how they feel, HEHE

But I’m not signed up yet :(

I'm still hoping to wake up from that nightmare I had about the 9th inning of Game 4.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 19, 2009 10:05 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Baseball = everthing

An anthropology, you have cultural materialism, which basically says that cultural evolution is deterministic and that all cultural traits—religions, customs, sex and marriage relations, warfare methods, family relations, etc—of any group of people can be traced back to earthly (i.e., ecological, reproductive, dietary) concerns. Old-timey anthropologists don’t like this, and they prefer to go on thinking that there is something non-earthly or pure to things like religion, love, and art.

In literary theory, you have the post-modernist schools of criticism that treat all literary texts as complex systems of signs interacting with the broader language and culture, themselves systems and signs. To these people, there’s no such thing as pure aesthetic experience, and we respond to works of art basically like robots responding to a code.

And this conflict is also at the basis of philosophy and religion. Do you believe that the universe was set in motion at the big bang and operates according to a rigid set of cause-and-effect rules, or do you believe that there’s something non-deterministic behind things?

If nothing else, you guys’ little argument has at least made me see some new connections between baseball and lots of other things. It’s cool to think about.

by dogs on Oct 19, 2009 10:07 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I almost had

a paragraph on literary theory and Stanley Fish, but maybe another time.

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by Russ Oates on Oct 19, 2009 10:10 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

Someone should write a book.

The Stats vs. non-Stats thing can be linked to pretty much every area of thought. For example—not that I want to discuss this on this site, where such talk is rightly forbidden—but I bet that if you did a study on where people stand on the baseball stats thing, you could fairly accurately predict whether or not they’re religious, where they are politically, how they interact with society, etc. I’m not saying I know what the relations would be, but I bet there’s a strong correlation, just as I’m sure that there are probably similar political/religious correlations in the history field (as I know there are in literary theory, anthropology, and philosophy).

by dogs on Oct 19, 2009 10:31 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

dangerous dangerous territory there....

Dear Rockies - 2009 NL Wild Card Champs. Best turnaround in MLB history for a team to win the Wild Card. Thank you for a wonderful rollercoaster of a season. Can't wait to do it again next year!!

Troy Tulowitzki - THE best SS in the game..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba - En Fuego!! (when hitting 6th or 7th)
Brad Hawpe- Big Bad Brad, I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utley's in a single bound!

by SDcat09 on Oct 19, 2009 10:45 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not going to comment either way

but I bet you are dead wrong here.

by Hizilla on Oct 20, 2009 12:16 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's not poke that hornets nest

I'm still hoping to wake up from that nightmare I had about the 9th inning of Game 4.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 20, 2009 12:22 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

point

Hope got in my eyes

by Andrew Martin on Oct 20, 2009 12:22 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

You were my control point in this argument

I’ve met you, been to games with you, conversed with you. I would be willing to bet, that politically/religiously that we have some varying view points I don’t want to prove it. But that was my thinking by stating that.

by Hizilla on Oct 20, 2009 12:23 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not trying to stir anything up.

Just saying because we agree on some things – doesn’t mean we agree on others.

by Hizilla on Oct 20, 2009 12:29 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Religion serves too many functions

to be predicted by or strongly correlated to one thing. But I can see where you’re going with this.

But predicting human behavior sucks (in the sense that your numbers are never robust), trust me, I know.

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Oct 20, 2009 5:57 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

WHY MUST YOU SPEAK IN TONGUES

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Oct 20, 2009 8:25 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also

this totally has the making of a ridiculously fun conversation, aside from its inherent volatility.

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Oct 20, 2009 5:59 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Off topic about the Phils.

Can you believe that just a couple of years ago people debated whether the Phils or the Mets had the better core. It seems insane now.

I'm still hoping to wake up from that nightmare I had about the 9th inning of Game 4.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 19, 2009 10:12 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

wow this is awesome

a mixture of two of my favorite things history and baseball. Great job Russ!

Dex Knows
Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. -C.S. Lewis

by RockiesDave on Oct 19, 2009 10:14 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Who's loss was worse?

Yanks or Dodgers?

I'm still hoping to wake up from that nightmare I had about the 9th inning of Game 4.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 19, 2009 10:24 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Typing that put a smile on my face

I'm still hoping to wake up from that nightmare I had about the 9th inning of Game 4.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 19, 2009 10:25 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dodgers

now they’re backed up against the wall and have to win 3 straight against the team that never quits.

by ddavis539 on Oct 19, 2009 10:28 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah no kidding

why couldn’t Utley just have struck out

WHY WHY WHY

I love Greg Reynolds. Deal with it, suckers.

by Silverblood on Oct 19, 2009 10:29 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or Howard

I mean there were two strikes on him….crap, wrong game/series.

Damn, that pain won’t go away.

by Muzia on Oct 19, 2009 10:31 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's still valid, as far as I'm concerned. :)

I still haven’t been able to work up much Dodgers-hate. I know, I’m weird.

Paleface Destro, wildly hacking destroyer of rallies.
Recovering Mets fan since 2007.

by Paleface Destro on Oct 19, 2009 11:01 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agree

The Yanks are still playing with house money tomorrow. I have a suitemate who is a Yankee fan and he is still pissed though (yelling at the TV everytime the highlights come on and saying bad things about the Angels families)

I was wondering if it was even worse than I thought

I'm still hoping to wake up from that nightmare I had about the 9th inning of Game 4.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 19, 2009 10:36 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would really like to meet you one day, Russ

We would get along.

And I have always sympathized with the Federalists, so I guess that makes me a stat guy who knows nothing about stats. Rough life.

by Muzia on Oct 19, 2009 10:27 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Well put, Russ!

That’s the beauty of baseball, isn’t it? There’s room for both sides of the argument, and they both have valid points. Somehow, it all comes together in a beautiful, poetic, ultimately unpredictable whole…and that’s the real appeal of the game, isn’t it (at least among thinking, knowing fans)? It is at once cold mathematics and mind-blowing chaos. All of the complex moving pieces, somehow in a harmony. The stats work well…until they don’t, and then who knows what will happen? It all makes for an incredible, engaging 6-month ride during the warmest, most lush, and most optimistic time of the year.

This is why I love baseball. The haters can bite me.

Paleface Destro, wildly hacking destroyer of rallies.
Recovering Mets fan since 2007.

by Paleface Destro on Oct 19, 2009 10:59 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm a non-stat guy. But then I'd guess y'all probably could figure that out by my posts.

But there are some stats that I’m getting comfortable with and feel have value in my following of baseball in general and the Rockies in particular. Conversely, there are some of the stats that I (a) can’t get my mind around or (b) don’t feel have any validity in my following the game.

I don’t care if the stat-guys (and I consider “guys” to be non-gender specific) want to talk about a stat I have no interest in or use for. I can elect to ignor that part of the conversation (and sometimes do). On the other hand, when I mention a stat that I think has value that the stat-guys discount (RBIs for example), I don’t have to be continually reminded of your position. I’m not going to convince you (nor do I want to) and you’re not going to convince me.

But what we all need to keep in mind is that we are all Rockies fans (except for the occasional slithering snake that finds its way in :) ) and we need to respect the others’ right to express their view points.

People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~Rogers Hornsby

by pedalpusher on Oct 19, 2009 11:14 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Personally, I like the stats

I’m not a stat-head, and never have been, but it adds a dimension to my thought that would otherwise go missing.

On an even more basic level, we’re all baseball fans. Of course, the Rockies are the best team to root for, but I don’t mind other fans if they’re mature. :)

Paleface Destro, wildly hacking destroyer of rallies.
Recovering Mets fan since 2007.

by Paleface Destro on Oct 19, 2009 11:40 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

except for the occasional slithering snake

PAGING DBS!

by Hizilla on Oct 20, 2009 12:18 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think an important thing that never gets mentioned

is the function of the stats.

RBI for example is worthless as a predictor, so it oftentimes gets discarded. It is however useful to tell you how good of a season a guy had. The fact that he knocked in those runs does mean something (and one could make the argument that its just a factor of spot in the lineup and that anyone else who batted there would have put up similar numbers – which is certainly valid, but ultimately THIS person batted in those runs, ultimately they contributed that much towards the teams runs). Something like wOBA can also tell you how good of a season a guy had although it won’t tell you how many runs a guy knocked in. Essentially wOBA can be viewed as a statistic of pure talent (or as best as we can isolate it), RBI however is a statistic that is a conglomerate of talent + context.

Do I like RBI? Yea, they’re cool. Do I think they should be discarded? Never. Would I make predictions going forward off of RBI? Maybe for fantasy baseball but that’s about it.

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Oct 20, 2009 6:06 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I definitely agree that RBIs are determined by a large degree by the position in the lineup. You have to have people on base. However

you still have to be able to deliver when men are on base. And I think that’s what the RBIs tell you. I doubt that Q. could deliver the same performance batting in the 3-4-5 hole as say Tulo or Todd. The approach of stats-guys seems to indicate that Q. could be an RBI guy based solely on his position in the order. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding their approach. What I’m pretty sure of is that this rambling probably makes no sense to anyone except myself. But I’m OK if some folks discount a stat that I find favor with.

People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~Rogers Hornsby

by pedalpusher on Oct 21, 2009 11:25 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

the reason it's discounted is because it's very situationally dependent

Pujols could break Hack Wilson’s single season RBI record if he had Philadelphia’s lineup around him.

As they’re very contextual, they have little predictive value. There are thresholds of production (like 100RBI or whatever) that could be somewhat regular year-to-year, but Tulo didn’t mash 100RBI as a cleanup hitter. Does that mean his season wasn’t awesome overall? I don’t think so.

Hope got in my eyes

by Andrew Martin on Oct 21, 2009 11:53 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't speak for stats people

but I believe they’d just say Q would be expected to get more RBI’s hitting in the heart of the lineup than elsewhere, but that people like Tulo or Helton would get more RBI’s batting in the same spot as Q based on their slugging percentage.

Basically, there is no problem with any statistic. The problems arise depending on the types of conclusions people try to draw from statistics.

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Oct 21, 2009 12:10 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's a pretty fair comment.

People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~Rogers Hornsby

by pedalpusher on Oct 21, 2009 3:03 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

This, sir, was brilliant.

I really want to see that chair historian relate this Rockies season to flipping on a light switch, or something. That would be just plain awesome.

Never give up, never surrender.

by coolopotamus on Oct 19, 2009 11:19 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I believe

I have figured out who that chair historian is, but I need to confirm it first.

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Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!

by Russ Oates on Oct 20, 2009 7:37 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

YES

ICHIRO INSIDE THE PARKER

JUAN PIERRE SCORES

ROCKIES TAKE A 7-6 LEAD IN THE TOP OF THE 8TH!!!

Hope got in my eyes

by Andrew Martin on Oct 20, 2009 12:37 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

This is one hell of a game

I'm still hoping to wake up from that nightmare I had about the 9th inning of Game 4.

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 20, 2009 12:44 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Branyan K's looking

game over, 7-9 Cubs

I told them the other night, but check out this team

C McCann
1B Russell the Muscle
2B Kaz
SS HanRam
3B Chone
LF Pierre
CF Bison
RF Ichiro

1. Doc
2. Big Unit
3. Scherzer
4. Jonathan Sanchez
5. Mark Hendrickson

CL Billy Wagner
SU Flash
MR Chris Ray
MR Jeff Samardizjijrairjnaetija
MR Jesus Colome
LR Doug Waetcher

Bench Kotchman
Bench Cootch
Bench Brian Anderson
Bench Jed Lowrie
Bench Gabe Gross

Hope got in my eyes

by Andrew Martin on Oct 20, 2009 12:48 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm still less than impressed

with your staff. Also. Scherzer should be your #2. The Unit is OLD.

by Hizilla on Oct 20, 2009 12:50 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also

Juan Pierre should not be a starting OF in MLB, by your own admission.

by Hizilla on Oct 20, 2009 12:51 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, it's video game baseball

I can bunt single with 3 or 4 of my guys, steal with 6 of them, and hit long balls with 4 of them

the game ranks the Rockies as the best team, with like the absolute worst bats

Hope got in my eyes

by Andrew Martin on Oct 20, 2009 12:52 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I cant believe I read all that

but to state my opinion I’m on the fence i’m just learning about the stats stuff so I mostly go by what my eyes are telling me. O and I love American History(the wars mostly).

"The thing to remember is that if you put your heart into it, if you care, if it means something to you, it's going to hurt. I don't think I would want it any other way." - Huston Street

by nodakroxfan on Oct 20, 2009 1:25 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Yea

love the wars

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart." - A. Bartlett Giamatti

by Rawktober on Oct 20, 2009 9:04 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Federalist vs. Democrat-Republicans

Shouldn’t the statheads actually be the Democrat-Republics (or, anti-Federalists)? They are championing a way that breaks from the traditional mold (Federalists/stronger centralized authority), which is the scouting/anecdotal crowd?

by deacs on Oct 20, 2009 9:26 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

The D-R party

was strict constructionist and didn’t like innovation.

Though, you could go either way on this.

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by Russ Oates on Oct 20, 2009 9:41 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

In a completely lighthearted vein...

Those who put absolute faith in the power of supposed scientific statistical purity would be the strict constructionists. Those who put their faith in the old order would be those hanging onto traditional methods. I guess part of what makes it difficult to analyze simply the Confederation era (and stats vs. tradition) is there is not a natural dichotomy of opposing sides (like the Tories vs. Patriots). Often, as in the case of Madison and Jefferson, the Fathers’ interests overlapped both the Federalist and opposing viewpoint.

The really interesting thing about stats sites to me is their positive belief that in the Iannetta vs. Torrealba, Hudson vs. Belliard debates that underlying statistics will vindicate their position that starting the statistically inferior player (Torrealba, Belliard) will be detrimental. In the long run, they are right because they are naturally going to be right. Iannetta and Hudson are better players over the course of a season. But not necessarily in short spans.

In general, I think the sides are coming closer together. But there’s one area, which particularly stands out in September and October, that stats people inject themselves into and drive traditional people nuts:

Statistics-driven people are always quick to point out the fallacy of small sample sizes. Yet, when a short-term player decision arises between a slumping, superior player and a hot, inferior player (late-September run, post-season series), they are always quick to insert themselves and insist on staying with the (over the long-run) statistically superior player.

by deacs on Oct 20, 2009 11:33 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Historical comparisons

are hard to make in general. Depends on how you see things.

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by Russ Oates on Oct 20, 2009 11:41 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

That's a bit general for what I was saying.

I meant comparisons of contemporaries from the contemporaries’ perspectives… There were many competing viewpoints inbetween the full-blown Hamiltonian stance and the Patrick Henrys. The same is true for the degrees in which people use and rely (very different concepts) on statistics and observational analysis.

You can sum up in the terms of academic debate – be it in military history, economics, politics, or just academia in general – as qualitative people versus quantitative people.

Does PR ban commentators ever? I can’t recall seeing ban threats in your civility reminders.

by deacs on Oct 20, 2009 1:41 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

We ban when a ban is needed.

I’m not disagreeing with you when you say that I mixed up who should be which party. The way I have in the post is how I thought of it at the moment when I wrote and read it over. Basically, what was running through my mind was that Jefferson advocated a more agrarian society/economy (tradition) as opposed to Hamilton’s economic policies. It was a surface comparison that wasn’t fully explained.

See, we just debated this issue without pulling a knife on each other.

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by Russ Oates on Oct 20, 2009 7:33 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Clear Enough

Not that I’m looking to get banned.

Nor was I trying to get a reversal of your 1790 party affiliation designations for the stat/anecdotal crowds. There’s a good case to be made as to which group (Hamiltonians, Jeffersonians, or other) was the traditionalist or innovative crowd.

The great thing about your initial comparison is that there were so many competing interests within the Hamiltonian and Jeffersonian factions (let alone between them) that it’s a great parallel for the diversity of interest that exist between and among the stat and anecdotal crowds.

I didn’t actually read the post where it got nasty, but I’ll risk saying something divisive: Internet cat fights about baseball observation methodology are stupid. The game is subjective (as the umpires are proving tonight) and the observations, as you said, are subjective when people start applying stats to a concept.

by deacs on Oct 20, 2009 8:34 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Last paragraph

on the money. (not to say the rest wasn’t).

by Teekalong on Oct 20, 2009 12:38 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks. That contradicition really irked me.

For posterity, this is the Belliard/Hudson post. The period in question is a matter of weeks, at most a month.

I still think it’d have been better to have Iannetta in the lineup, but it’s certainly a hard call to make.

by deacs on Oct 20, 2009 1:45 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

a lot of SABR people really did not agree with that article at all

just so you know, we’re not all like minded.

Hope got in my eyes

by Andrew Martin on Oct 20, 2009 1:47 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, that was a little snarky

Just from the comments in that article you could tell there was a lot of dissension (though I haven’t read other sites’ takes on it). It’s just the sample thing. You’re implored not to read into small samples on Fangraphs (except in the Fantasy areas), and then boom, they superimpose larger statistical arguments on a small sample problem.

Granted, contradictions are a part of life. But, when you’re building something based on concrete evidence, and teaching people to draw better conclusions based on better reasoning, and you know the shortcomings of certain evidence – don’t use the evidence.

Also, a lot of people on both sides seem to view the use of statistics in baseball analysis as some sort of club – you’re an insider or outsider. But in reality, anyone can go to Fangraphs, read the glossary, and use the statistics to build an argument. I did it all the time last off-season to make up lies about how Barmesy would be as valuable as OHudson.

by deacs on Oct 20, 2009 3:33 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Issue is that a few of the fangraphs authors are VERRRRRRY one-sided

seem to miss the forest for the trees. Most people actually watching won’t deny Belliard’s rationale for starting.

Hope got in my eyes

by Andrew Martin on Oct 20, 2009 7:48 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've stayed out of this debate entirely, since I really don't submit to either side.

I represent the opinion that both sides are essentially meaningless, and will never account for the entire picture of anything, even when used in combination. I’m a rarity here in the sense that I approach baseball much as I approach my actual area of expertise, cinematic arts. A baseball game/series/season, to me, is not about watching athletes do their thing, or about admiring gameplay, or searching for patterns in the numbers a player produces. It is almost entirely about following the story from moment A to moment Z. Where does this people go from pitch number one, to the final out? How did they get there? What were the high points and low points? What does this experience mean? Reading this blog heavily contributes to my observations. I will leave this debate not preferring Torrealba or Iannetta because one side or the other convinced me to, but instead having catalogued the debate into my archives as part of the story of the season, something further to think about when constructing a meaningful description and analysis of the Colorado Rockies and their fans, 2009.

Having kept out of that debate, I do indeed participate whenever the discussion becomes the objective vs. the subjective. I remain in a rare camp, because I find that all essentially conclusions in baseball are subjective. Statistics themselves are objective, but what they mean depends entirely on the eye of the beholder, which is why debates like this are possible in the first place. My outlook, however, likely appears flawed to most of those here, for the simple reason that I am not a sports fan, and appreciate the game in a different way than most people do. Just as Russ has incorporated a historical context in terms of the discourse on military history into his experience, I incorporate my interpretation that the game itself is something to be examined in the vein of what happened and why, just like any narrative story I may analyze, rather than following numerical trends or building opinions based upon performance patterns. Neither of these things appeals to me at all.

by WolfMarauder on Oct 20, 2009 11:39 AM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks Russ

Now we can look at a discussion of stats/observations as WAR :^)

To all the stat junkies out there, I would add this:
When discussion of a Managers worth comes up in the future, at whatever site you are reading it on, and someone posts that a Manager’s in-game decisions are worth “X” number of runs, and therefore his value is only worth 2 wins at best, what are you going to say? That person will be willing to argue that the numbers show that they’re right “X” number of times and what happened this year was an anomoly.
Will your “observed” history agree?

I’ve posted before (not here) that a Managers worth to a team is a lot more important than the sabr crowd believes, and IMO this year proved my point to me. Now some will not agree and want to say that Hurdle had success in 2007 and therefore what happened in 2009 could still have happened. To selectively remove his record before the run to the Playoffs, and what he did after the going to the WS, is the only way their numbers and theories can be correct.

PF , when I get a chance I’ll email you and we can continue a discussion that way on stats. My view will be clearer and less confusing but I’m not a post whore and choose not to do it here…

The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.

by rockieprogress on Oct 20, 2009 12:39 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

how about not starting another fight, huh?

I think that was the point of Russ’ article

Hope got in my eyes

by Andrew Martin on Oct 20, 2009 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not starting a fight.

You keep misinterpreting a discussion as a fight. I’ve seen it happen a couple of times now.
IMO, what Russ was pointing out was that we can discuss things in a civilized manner and don’t need to get into a lot of drama about it.
FYI, I originally had you in the line about emailing but decided I didn’t want to endure a tag-team.

The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.

by rockieprogress on Oct 20, 2009 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

That over time, views will change once other information is brought into it.

The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.

by rockieprogress on Oct 20, 2009 12:55 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

So at what point do we get to choose which General we want to be?

I’ll take Chesty Puller if he’s not already chosen.

People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~Rogers Hornsby

by pedalpusher on Oct 20, 2009 3:19 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

December 12th . . . maybe.

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by Russ Oates on Oct 20, 2009 7:36 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

As a history major

I have no idea why anyone would choose to specialize in military history.

by Onebaseman on Oct 20, 2009 8:48 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

What's your area?

This is not meant to be mocking, but do you know what academic military history is? It’s not just guns and trumpets, grand battles, and generals. Stephen Morillo’s What is Military History and Jeremy Black’s Rethinking Military History are places to start for anyone who wants to delve into the field. John Keegan’s The Face of Battle paved the way for the “new” military history that moved beyond the traditional view of military history. Philip D. Curtin’s Disease and Empire: The Health of European Troops in the Conquest of Africa and Jill Lepore’s The Name of War: King Philip’s War and the Origins of American Identity serve as great examples of how non-traditional military history can be.

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by Russ Oates on Oct 20, 2009 9:00 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dude.

You just name checked two authors I worked with last year (Morillo and Black). Trippy. Although, I didn’t really communicate much with Jeremy Black, as he apparently doesn’t do e-mail. Stephen Morillo as actually an artist, too.

by holly96 on Oct 21, 2009 1:17 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

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