Saturday Rockpile: What the Rox should consider doing with Eric Young Jr.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Oct 24, 2009 9:09 AM MDT
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PrintThere is an agonizingly extreme shortage of Rockies-related news today, so I figured I'd dive into a topic that was explored a bit in an ESPN.com chat with Jim Callis.
Chat: Chat with Baseball America's Jim Callis - SportsNation - ESPN
Scroll down a bit and you can see that Callis thinks highly of our very own Ubaldo Jimenez. Most people do, and rightfully so. Also, when asked to compare Dee Gordon and Eric Young Jr., here's Callis' answer:
I would take Gordon because I'm not convinced Young can stay in the infield. Gordon isn't a lock to stay at shortstop but I think he'll figure it out.
That begs the question: what should the Rockies do with EY2? The good thing about the possible conundrum the club will face with the talented youngster is that he is very versatile - as he has shown the ability to play in the infield and outfield. That said, he is probably an average-to-below average defender at both spots. You have to think, though, that with more reps he will improve at one (or both) of the positions, which will increase his value.
With Garrett Atkins and Omar Quintanilla being likely non-tender candidates (not to mention the fact that Brad Hawpe will probably be on the trading block, despite what the Rockies' front office is saying at this point), the younger Young is pretty much a lock for a spot on the 25-man coming out of Spring Training in 2010. However, am I alone in thinking it may be wise to place him back in Triple-A to have him get more work at one position or the other (instead of being a super-utility guy for the big league club, as we all know Clint Barmes will be penciled in at second base in the Opening Day lineup, along with the likely trio of Dexter Fowler, Carlos Gonzalez, and Seth Smith in the outfield)? Given the Rockies' current solid outfield depth, I'd like to see him spend all of his time honing his skills in the infield, as I think his value there will be of more importance/relevance to the big league team.
I've rambled on about as much as I can regarding this subject. Now, commence the inevitable Barmes flaming/Brian Roberts trade mongering in the comments. Also, you should humor me a bit and suggest a few players who could fill EY2's spot in the unlikely (but again in my opinion, very reasonable) event of him starting the year in the Springs.
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Iwamura
By all accounts, he’ll be available from the Rays. Not sure what it’d take to get him, but he’d certainly fit the bill while being cheap enough.
As far as Hawpe, the Cubs have shown plenty of interest over the years (I think). Not sure what they’ve got that we’d realistically like to have on our roster, but he’d likely fit as a replacement for Bradley.
by LightsOutTequilia on Oct 24, 2009 9:39 AM MDT reply actions
He's a bit pointless defensively
what he adds offensively Barmes adds defensively.
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 24, 2009 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions
I am interested to know your opinion
Do you think height is a consideration in playing 2nd base or short stop? I ask this because I noticed when Q played 2nd, he did miss a couple that went over his head. EY is 5’10" and Q is 5’9". Barmes and Tulo are able to jump higher and have caught some amazing plays, so Is this a concern or am I just being too picky? thanks
He's not
Eddie Gaedel… There are a lot of people out there that believe that there is a relation between height and jumping ability. Thats not true IMO. If measured, I would think that the height that EY2 gets to is very similar to what Barmes can get to.
Always remember, white men can’t jump… :)
The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.
by rockieprogress on Oct 24, 2009 10:01 AM MDT up reply actions
I really don't think that it is considered...
…but it is an interesting argument.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Oct 24, 2009 6:49 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm still not sure where the "talented" rumor started
I like the kid, he has a lot of scrappyness and more speed than anyone else on the team (and perhaps baseball). But as far as talent goes, he doesn’t have all that much. Every baseball scout I have seen talk about him says the same thing. Yes, he has hit at every level so far, but who knows what we will see from him in the majors (over the course of a full year, not just a few weeks).
Personally, I still think he will be much like Taveras, in that his speed will be his only asset. But, I have been wrong about a lot of things in sports, so it’s also possible we get huge upside from this kid.
If I had to guess right now
I would say EY2 will become a very valueable bench player in his career. (Once he fines tunes his stealing abilities of course) He will be great in spurts but if you play him everyday, his shortcomings will start to show.
I'm still hoping to wake up from that nightmare I had about the 9th inning of Game 4.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 24, 2009 3:09 PM MDT up reply actions
I guess I consider speed and athleticism "talent."
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Oct 24, 2009 6:51 PM MDT up reply actions
most baseball players are athletes
Clint Barmes is an athlete, and he’s the one we’re complaining about.
Choo Freeman was an athlete.
Willy Taveras was an athlete.
Just because EYJ is an athlete and works hard doesn’t mean he’s an excellent MLB player. Or a good one. Or a passable one.
It obviously doesn’t hurt, but I think everyone’s too excited over the fact that he’s really fast and that his dad was an OK major leaguer and had a home run once.
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 24, 2009 8:11 PM MDT up reply actions
I think Young's Upside
is that of a Juan Pierre that plays an average, if not slightly below average 2nd base. His downside being that of 2008 Willy Taveras.
If he reaches his Juan Pierre’ish upside, then I think he’s a useful player, but still nothing to write home about. Clearly both him and Barmes are holding a spot until Nelson or Gomez are ready.
The Future:
Smith LF
Fowler CF
CarGo RF
Defense
What makes him such a sub-par second baseman? He clearly has the range to play the position, is it just the fundamentals? I’m inclined to believe that someone with his athleticism can improve at the position more than, say, an Atkins or a Hawpe.
from what i have heard, he has poor footwork in turning two
To go with a subpar glove and arm. He will improve. The question is how much. Atkins did great at second base in 2008
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Oct 24, 2009 10:54 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Hahaha in that one game he played...
I remember Iannetta was a beast at third, too.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Oct 24, 2009 6:51 PM MDT up reply actions
I thought he was going to be the centerpiece in our trade for albert pujols
So you're telling me there's a chance. Yeah!
-Lloyd
by squalene203 on Oct 24, 2009 11:09 AM MDT up reply actions
nah, where would we play Pujols
we already have the best first basemen in baseball…
The Future:
Smith LF
Fowler CF
CarGo RF
You mean Thong-boy..
amirite?
Order a Rocktober t-shirt in time for the playoffs and donate to charity at:
Purple Row Cares
nah, Joe Koshansky
oh wait
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 24, 2009 10:55 PM MDT up reply actions
I thought he was going to be loaded in a rocket and shot to the moon?
Or was that Rincon?
"I clearly miscalculated how popular it would be to show Calvin urinating on a Ford logo"--Bill Watterson
by frightened inmate #2 on Oct 24, 2009 12:29 PM MDT up reply actions
east cost bias version of this
He Plays at coors, isn’t he already on the moon?
The Future:
Smith LF
Fowler CF
CarGo RF
I get this feeling we haven't seen the last of Juan Rincon
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 24, 2009 2:24 PM MDT up reply actions
EY2 conundrum
I’m not sure what the big deal is. He’ll battle it out with Barmes for the job at 2B next spring. If EY wins, then Clint becomes the utility infielder. If Barmes wins, then EY gets optioned out to AAA (he has options left, correct?).
I doubt they keep EY on the bench the whole year as a utility player/pinch runner.
I don't believe this battle is happening.
If they sign Barmes long term, they’re going to hand him the starting job. I would be perfectly fine with EY2 as a utility player, though.
by Greg Stanwood on Oct 24, 2009 11:43 AM MDT up reply actions
Agree
EY’s obviously more versatile than Q
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart." - A. Bartlett Giamatti
Yeah, I don't see us tendering Quintanilla a contract, especially if he qualifies for arbitration as a Super 2
In fact, he may even be a candidate to be outrighted before the contract deadline.
by Greg Stanwood on Oct 24, 2009 11:58 AM MDT up reply actions
Obviously?
Whoa… I’m not a huge Q fan but he is a much better candidate as a utility inf than EY2 for a 162 game season. He made the playoff roster over Q only because of ability to steal a big base.. not because he was the best choice as a extra infielder.
Beyond that, I would think they would want EY to continue getting reps in the field rather siting on the bench.
Q got so little playing time he was essentially worthless.
we might as well have an offensive weapon.
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 24, 2009 2:26 PM MDT up reply actions
My problem is that Barmes likely just isn't the answer at second base, and I REALLY do believe...
…that EY2 can be a very solid regular. Probably not an impact player, but certainly not a lineup killer either.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Oct 24, 2009 6:54 PM MDT up reply actions
issue is
proven elite glove + streaky but overall poor bat with some pop sometimes + smart-to-good baserunning
VS
unproven glove that may max out at average + unproven bat that doesn’t look to be anything special at all to the pragmatic eye + unrefined-but-lightning-fast speed
that’s
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 24, 2009 8:16 PM MDT up reply actions
You might have just described Dexter Fowler..
remember that Quintanilla was considered a liability in the field when he was drafted out of Texas, and was actually a better bat. He’s improved his defense, because it’s something that can be improved by a person with a decent arm and athletic ability.
EY2 has a better Fld% than Barmes did at his age, and while fielding pct isn’t the best stat at least we’re comparing apples to apples. Why not give EY2 a chance? Barmes can still be the utility guy, and EY is a switch hitter.
Order a Rocktober t-shirt in time for the playoffs and donate to charity at:
Purple Row Cares
don't get me wrong
I’d love EYJ to win the job, and Barmes to be Jamey Carroll 2.0. Actually I wouldn’t mind Jamey Carroll 1.0 back either. Sort of.
I hope EYJ has the kind of offseason/spring that Dex had, and just wins the job. I do. I love his speed, etc. If he wins the job, you won’t hear me complaining about it, unless he starts just sucking out loud.
Thing is, I also love the whole Cargo-Dex-Helton-Tulo thing as well….sort of
it’s a good problem to have.
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 24, 2009 10:59 PM MDT up reply actions
It's just kind of funny..
that EY2 was the leadoff hitter all through the minors with Dex hitting 2nd and now Dex is supposed to be the next LO guy. Also EY2 is only 24, six years younger than Barmes. Why wouldn’t he be given a shot?
Order a Rocktober t-shirt in time for the playoffs and donate to charity at:
Purple Row Cares
because of the organizational philosophy of pitching + defense = win
strongest possible IF defense with groundballers on the mound, therefore Barmes gets the nod. Also 20 dingers!
seriously, if EY shows he can play, I have zero problem starting him on the DLR and Hammel days, and starting Barmes on the Ubaldo/Cook days, and then just seeing who the #5 is.
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 24, 2009 11:42 PM MDT up reply actions
You mean infield defense right?
Bcuz Hawpe clearly proved this theory otherwise in the outfield. Even as his Avg dropped 40 points.
Order a Rocktober t-shirt in time for the playoffs and donate to charity at:
Purple Row Cares
you know what I meant
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 25, 2009 10:16 PM MDT up reply actions
Has this been posted yet?
"I clearly miscalculated how popular it would be to show Calvin urinating on a Ford logo"--Bill Watterson
by frightened inmate #2 on Oct 24, 2009 12:29 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
cab driver win
So you're telling me there's a chance. Yeah!
-Lloyd
by squalene203 on Oct 24, 2009 12:38 PM MDT up reply actions
mmmm....that's good Shadenfreude
"I clearly miscalculated how popular it would be to show Calvin urinating on a Ford logo"--Bill Watterson
by frightened inmate #2 on Oct 24, 2009 12:44 PM MDT up reply actions
What an idiot
This may may sound cruel but when I see someone get hurt doing something stupid like that, I have almost no sympathy.
I just laugh.
I'm still hoping to wake up from that nightmare I had about the 9th inning of Game 4.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 24, 2009 3:16 PM MDT up reply actions
yeah you're not alone
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 24, 2009 3:36 PM MDT up reply actions
Well,
that’s what you get when you improperly ghostride the whip.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
So who's the utility guy if (when?) Q gets non-tendered and EYJ gets sent to the Springs?
I’m not particularly enamored with EYJ at this point. If we’re going to hold on to him and not make him a part of a trade, I think he needs more time in AAA.
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~Rogers Hornsby
3B, SS, 2B & OF
McCoy got most of his PT at 3B, but some action at SS, 2B & OF.
He could be the next Terry Shumpert. Too old to be a prospect (29 starting the 2010 season), but given the opportunity he could contribute.
Last year in the Springs he had 40 SB, just 2 HR, .307 BA, OBP .406, with 80 BB to 70K. Had 12 errors on the season, but can’t find anything on number of starts at each position. Based on what I’ve seen, I’m thinking that 3B is his best position defensively, but he has less power than Jef Cirillo.
"You have no other choice, you MUST go on." Stanley Milgram, "Obedience to Authority"
I thought he played SS most of the season...
hm
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 24, 2009 8:20 PM MDT up reply actions
Jonathon Hererra played more at SS
even though the Sox Web site has McCoy (along with Hererra) listed at SS. Of course, this is based on the small sample size of games I attended, but I believe that McCoy played most at 3B.
Anyone know of a good source for minor league games played by position?
"You have no other choice, you MUST go on." Stanley Milgram, "Obedience to Authority"
usually thebaseballcube is good
actually, baseball-reference minors is solid
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=mccoy-001mic#standard_fielding::0
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 24, 2009 10:17 PM MDT up reply actions
Thanks, even if it did show I was wrong.
60 games @ short, 38 at 3B, 24 in CF, 10 in RF, 7 in LF, 6 at 2B, 2 at DH and 1 at P. Everything except C and 1B.
Career he’s seen the most action at 2B, then SS, then 3B.
Taking this back to EY: while his defense doesn’t now come close to that of Barmes, it was a little over a decade ago that another rookie infielder worked hard with the Rox to learn defense.
We’re reminded at least a couple times aa month, if not more, how Baylor used to hit one hoppers, line shots, etc. to Helton @ 1B to simulate bad throws. Todd eventually earned a few Gold Gloves.
EY’s young and inexpensive; Barmes is neither.
Perhaps the Rox’ decision not to protect Everth Cabrera in last year’s Rule V draft was an indication of confidence in EY, and a hint that he’ll get the opportunity to start, even if not next April, though EY was a couple rungs up on the organizational ladder.
"You have no other choice, you MUST go on." Stanley Milgram, "Obedience to Authority"
Perhaps the Rox’ decision not to protect Everth Cabrera in last year’s Rule V draft was an indication of confidence in EY, and a hint that he’ll get the opportunity to start, even if not next April, though EY was a couple rungs up on the organizational ladder.
Let’s not forget O’Dowd’s complete reluctance to trade EYJ for just about anyone. They clearly see something I may not in EYJ. That or EYS has keys to their houses or something.
For the record, I have no doubt that if he just works at it like a madman, EYJ can improve his fielding. Knowing his background, family, and progression through the minors, he’s the kind of guy who will prove me and other doubters wrong entirely.
also for the record, I wasn’t trying to show you up, I had to go look myself.
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 25, 2009 12:42 AM MDT up reply actions
So who's on the start JJ Hardy at second bandwagon?
(hears crickets)
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
JJ Hardy would represent a great
buy low type of guy. I would take a chance if I were the GM.
The Future:
Smith LF
Fowler CF
CarGo RF
never played 2B in the majors.
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 24, 2009 8:20 PM MDT up reply actions
True
but how hard is the move from SS to 2nd, from my playing days, which isn’t much to go by, it is not to difficult of a transition.
The Future:
Smith LF
Fowler CF
CarGo RF
I don't know, but I DO know that Barmes had a season in AAA to acclimate to other positions
it depends on the cost for Hardy. I’d rather not pay anything legit for him.
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 24, 2009 8:25 PM MDT up reply actions
Nor would I
but the Brewers have Escobar in the folds, and Hardy is coming of a bad season which was largely the fault of a career low BABIP. He’d be worth a shot and I would trade Deduno or something similar for him in a heartbeat.
The Future:
Smith LF
Fowler CF
CarGo RF
not a lotta room for Deduno, that's for sure
seems like a decent guy to trade for someone who could be (somehow) worse than Barmes
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 24, 2009 8:50 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't think I would trade Deduno for him
Mostly because I like the thought of Deduno joining the pen in the near future (perhaps next year). But maybe another random prospect who I don’t like as much. However, it would need to be done pretty much now, if you are going to get him ready to play 2nd base. And like Barmes, I’m not sure how his bat will work out (will it rebound or is he done?)
Barmes' bat doesn't have much to rebound to
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 24, 2009 8:57 PM MDT up reply actions
I wouldn't trade Deduno for him
I would probably trade someone who doesn’t fit with the Rockies like Esmil Rogers; the Brewers probably want some legit pitching prospect for Hardy who could fit in their rotation. Face it, unless Rogers develops some damned good command of his fastball, he won’t last in Coors for long relying on breaking pitches (his fastball has good velocity but straight as an arrow), and he’s behind the prospect chart with Friedrich, Chacin, and will probably need the bullpen to survive with the Rockies. At least Deduno can use his sinker to have a rotation chance.
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
by bballrox4717 on Oct 24, 2009 9:06 PM MDT up reply actions
We could also try seeing if they'd like Roe combined with a lower level prospect, maybe Roling/Zuanich/Robinson/Pacheco
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
by bballrox4717 on Oct 24, 2009 9:09 PM MDT up reply actions
part of me wants to keep Jordan Pacheco around for a bit
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 24, 2009 9:10 PM MDT up reply actions
Why?
I have McKenry and Rosario above him on the catcher prospect list, and part of me thinks that Iannetta could be here for a while.
He could be a good trade chip at peak value right now….
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
by bballrox4717 on Oct 24, 2009 9:15 PM MDT up reply actions
you think he's peaked?
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 24, 2009 9:43 PM MDT up reply actions
THIS
His walk rate is terrific and he looks to be a solid contact guy…the club should see what this guy can do at the next level.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Oct 25, 2009 12:13 AM MDT up reply actions
how does Deduno fit but Rogers doesn't?
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 24, 2009 9:10 PM MDT up reply actions
Deduno is a groundball pitcher with lots of movement on his fastball/sinker
Rogers is more of a flyball pitcher, look how he imploded upon reaching CS, his command was gone and his HR/9 spiked.
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
by bballrox4717 on Oct 24, 2009 9:12 PM MDT up reply actions
going from Tulsa to the dryball climate is quite an adjustment
I wouldn’t give up Rogers for Hardy, that’s for sure
wow, Deduno’s a pretty extreme groundballer…once he’s ready for the majors, bye bye Manny Corpas
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 24, 2009 9:45 PM MDT up reply actions
I think he's exactly like Clint Barmes.
That’s what I think.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Oct 25, 2009 12:12 AM MDT up reply actions
yeah that sounds about right
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 25, 2009 12:42 AM MDT up reply actions
Ah well I found something that kills this
Hardy doesn’t want to switch positions.
(Goes back to praying that Kelly Johnson is non-tendered)
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
by bballrox4717 on Oct 25, 2009 9:37 AM MDT up reply actions
that would be awesome
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Oct 25, 2009 1:58 PM MDT up reply actions
I wonder if we would actually sign him though
Seems like the Braves want to commit to Martin Prado at second, meaning that if they offer arb, then it’s 3.3 for a backup infielder, which may be something they don’t want to do considering they want a right handed power bat for Christmas this year.
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
by bballrox4717 on Oct 25, 2009 3:16 PM MDT up reply actions
That's something I can get into.
Kelly Johnson is probably better than Hardy anyway. Seriously.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Oct 25, 2009 2:52 PM MDT up reply actions
Really?
Their wOBA’s are close but Hardy’s SS defense is a mile above Johnson’s 2B. While Johnson did make strides this year at second and was a UZR monster at left, but he’s left-handed; also, when they weren’t having down years, Hardy provided more WAR.
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
by bballrox4717 on Oct 25, 2009 3:24 PM MDT up reply actions
You can't guarantee that Hardy's solid SS defense will transfer to 2B.
That said, you’re probably right about Hardy being better than Johnson offensively. I didn’t realize how much Johnson strikes out.
That said, they’re both better offensively than Barmes, but I think good ol’ Clint probably evens things out defensively.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Oct 26, 2009 8:07 AM MDT up reply actions
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