Sunday Rockpile: What the Mets can learn from the late Larry Walker-era Rockies
While reading Bill Baer's piece on fixing the New York Mets for 2010 (it came up in a Google news search for the Rockies because one of his prescriptions is going after Rafael Betancourt) I was reminded actually about the early 2000's Rockies teams and it struck me how many people might not realize the predicament that the Mets are in right now. One sentence stood out:
Everybody is coming out of the infirmary, barring more bad luck down the road. That’s right — the Mets are hoping to get 600 plate appearances each out of Carlos Beltran and Jose Reyes in 2010, and 33 starts from Johan Santana.
Alright, this is where a lot of baseball fans, and at least a few front offices, seem to get it wrong. With Jose Reyes, the Mets really shouldn't be blamed if they count on a rebound of 600 plate appearances in 2010. He's in the prime of his career and 2009 was really only the first time injuries were an issue. It's the other two names that drew up my attention and brought me back to those Rockies teams where the names on the lineup would have a lot of quality but not much reliability. Larry Walker was a premium player, but after the turn of the decade, he just was no longer a reliable one. Same goes after the Mike Hampton trade with Preston Wilson and Charles Johnson. Carlos Beltran similarly has entered that phase of his career where counting on him to be an everyday producer is just not a wise decision.
Starting pitchers almost by nature are walking injury risks, and so Baer's on the right track in suggesting that the Mets would be better off targeting two decent starters rather than going after the one big fish in John Lackey, and the Maine/Perez/Pelfrey trio that they already have are probably due for some sort of rebound, but even if you add Joel Pineiro and Jason Marquis to that group it would still seem underwhelming to me.
Now, does this mean that the 2010 Mets are a lock for also ran status again? Hardly, but without building sufficient depth, Omar Minaya shouldn't point his fingers at anybody else if it does happen.
At any rate, I think New York's problems are deep enough that they're still on the outside of the playoff pack next season. In fact, I think everything I've heard and seen of the off season thus far leads me to the conclusion that there really isn't going to be much change in the NL contenders next season. I think three of these following seven teams win their division, and the other four compete for the wild card in 2010:
East:
Philly/Atlanta
Central
St. Louis/Chicago
West:
Los Angeles/San Fran/Colorado
Florida isn't going to get better, so they'll probably drop back, but I don't really see anybody in the next tier stepping up to take their place.
****
As Betancourt's cachet increases, it would seem less likely that the Rockies will retain him, and may have to let him walk if the bidding gets too fierce. It's similar to the situation they found themselves in after 2007 when LaTroy Hawkins' help for the playoff push made him one of the more desirable free agent targets despite only being good for sixty or so innings a season. The good news is that this is a scenario that having one door close means that another becomes easier to open, and other relievers that can provide just as much quality (including Hawkins himself) are out there.
If you fret that losing Betancourt would kill the Rockies chances or prove that we're a second rate organization incapable of doing what it takes to win, you should probably consider checking yourself into an institution before you get to the next stage, which would be putting up a FanPost with liberal use of CapsLock and not so cleverly derived nicknames for the front office.
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The Rockies
are a second-rate organization if they don’t sign Betancourt. I’m already in a mental institute.
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by Russ Oates on Nov 15, 2009 10:24 AM MST via mobile reply actions
Yeah
its called New York…
The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.
by rockieprogress on Nov 15, 2009 11:18 AM MST up reply actions
ding ding ding
I am the Knight Silverblood, chivalrously protecting right-minded people from the dangers of delusioned Yankees fans everywhere.
I'm already in a mental institute....
Just base on how cheap this organization is. There is a reason why we had so many losing seasons.
by Colsportsfan on Nov 15, 2009 3:20 PM MST up reply actions
Is or was?
What serious evidence do you have of this organization being cheap for the sake of being cheap?
We received some massive payback on moving Holliday, esp if Gonzalez is Carlos Beltran 2.0, and even if we go year-to-year with Street for the rest of his controlled year(s), we’ve gotten the value back just fine. Holliday wasn’t resigning with us, period.
Where else has this organization – and I don’t mean in 2003 or whatever, I mean 2007 and onward – been so cheap that we don’t have any hope for tomorrow?
Just for the record, we’ve just made 2 playoff runs in 3 years. Maybe you’ve forgotten that. 2 more than the Mets have in the same span, 2 more than the Tigers, 2 more than the Astros, the Braves, the Mariners, 1 more than the White Sox, need I go on?
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Nov 15, 2009 8:20 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
THE CHEAPFORTS ARE AT IT AGAIN
O’CLOWN DOSENT HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO RUN A GOOD BASEBALL TEAM, KIM TRACY IS JUST A HURDLE REHASH, AND BILL SCHMIDT IS THE WURST SCOWTING DIRECTER OF ALL TIME. THE ROCKIES WILL NEVAR BE A TRUE MLB CONTENDOR, JUST A FLUKE.
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Nov 15, 2009 10:49 AM MST reply actions
oh please, no DP commenter even knows who Bill Schmidt is.
He’s just about the best thing this franchise has going for it.
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Nov 15, 2009 12:02 PM MST up reply actions
Sadly
I think there might be more intelligence in DP Posters than the Colorado Rockies Fans Facebook group.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 16, 2009 9:45 AM MST up reply actions
avoidingavoidingavoidingavoidingavoidingavoidingavoidingavoidingavoiding
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Nov 16, 2009 10:25 AM MST up reply actions
Uh oh
SH*T JUST GOT REAL
Just an average guy with exceptional hair. Nothing more, nothing less.
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Nov 17, 2009 8:17 AM MST up reply actions
Carlos Beltran is still relatively young
But I agree. Leg injuries, particularly knee injuries, can shred an outfielder’s career. Even the great Bo Jackson was no match for his knee injury.
Last year was really a potentially franchise crippling year for the Mets. Not only did their big money free agents get injured, but they had to rush the hell out of top prospects (see Fernando Martinez). Not to mention, they flopped free agency (see Oliver Perez) and opened a new stadium that might be more of a canyon than Petco Park. Even with a full season of Johan Santana, they would have been well below .500.
Might be time to rebuild again in Flushing; and maybe trade Carlos Beltran for Chris Narveson, lol.
"There are only two important things in life: baseball and breathing. But at least you can survive without breathing for 3 minutes."
www.soundclick.com/hollidayrain
They should consider, seriously consider, a firesale.
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Nov 15, 2009 12:03 PM MST up reply actions
Good luck trying to move those enormous contracts
I think they are screwed
I wonder if Bud Selig will give the Yankees a receipt with their World Series purchase
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 16, 2009 9:47 AM MST up reply actions
they need to rebuild, IMO
Around Wright, because good luck getting value out of him. Suck again for awhile, but come on, it’s NY, you’ll make it back somehow, and then when you’re back at it, just flex a bit of that potential payroll and suddenly you’re competing for the NLE.
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Nov 16, 2009 10:27 AM MST up reply actions
Oh I agree they have to rebuild the question for me is how do you unload those contracts?
I think they may have to eat them while they rebuild.
They have so many issues right now. Huge contracts on the books, a nucleus of players who are prone to collapsing, not a great minor league system, a new ballpark that their fans aren’t in love with, a GM who makes impulsive decisions, injury prone players, and the fact that the Phils are in their division.
But hey Met fans want to them to make a play for Roy Halladay; that would be quite a 1-2 punch. I’d look forward to watching how they screwed that up.
I wonder if Bud Selig will give the Yankees a receipt with their World Series purchase
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 16, 2009 10:42 AM MST up reply actions
I agree that last year may have been a crippling year for the Mets but it seems like they have been building towards this for a while
In 2006 they were by far the best NL team and let the 83 win Cardinals beat them in the NLCS; in 2007 they had a seven game lead with 7 games to play and lost it (One of the all time biggest collapese in MLB history); and in 2008 they had a 3.5 game lead with 17 games left and blew that too. Even before all of the injuries this year the Mets had a serious problem with the nucleus of their team in that the core group of players couldn’t finish a season without totally collapsing.
I wonder if Bud Selig will give the Yankees a receipt with their World Series purchase
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 16, 2009 9:58 AM MST up reply actions
This might have been repeated elsewhere
but Eric Gagne is considering a comeback. Now, he said he’d consider it with the Dodgers, but he also said he’d consider a minor league contract.
Hmmmm
Hope got in my eyes
I'd rather have Joel Peralta back.
Heck, I’d rather have Tim Harikkala back.
by Greg Stanwood on Nov 15, 2009 1:44 PM MST up reply actions
I wouldn't mind
if he was only signed to a minor league deal and he had to make it out of ST. He wouldn’t have a chance of closing and who knows what chance he will have with the possibility of some other people coming back off the DL. With the slight chance of having Betancourt back this wouldn’t be too bad.
JFK
I know. A minor league contract for anyone is fine with me.
I was just being hyperbolic.
by Greg Stanwood on Nov 15, 2009 2:01 PM MST up reply actions
Let the Dodgers sign him
I wonder if Bud Selig will give the Yankees a receipt with their World Series purchase
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Nov 16, 2009 10:00 AM MST up reply actions
I won't cry too much if Bets is offered arbitration and walks.
There is a glut of quality relief pitching on the market and not a lot of money for them. Someone will slip through and will be a very good cheap pickup. I can see someone like Lyon still sitting around late waiting for a contract, and being a very good pickup on a two year deal.
two picks instead of someone who can get us to the world series RIGHT NOW...
thats the problem we are always building for the “future.” When are going to open our wallets and play for the world series instead?
by Colsportsfan on Nov 15, 2009 3:24 PM MST up reply actions
I vote for arb. & the 2 picks
Most relievers are hot/cold,, up/down — longterm or high-price commitments to them are extremely risky unless they have a Rivera-like history of consistency, and not many do.
This is just a hunch, based on little more than Betancourt’s numbers in Cleveland vs. numbers in CO, but I suspect a less-effective year for him in 2010. I think part of his success in late ‘09 may have been lack of familiarity of NL hitters with him. Not to take away from what he did. He was good, and I wouldn’t have quibbled with a 1-yr. exercise of the $5.4 million option, but a multi-year deal at $5 mil-plus? No. I think he’ll decline arbitration if the Mets have even the slightest interest in him, hoping to pick Omar M.’s pocket. Better 2 good picks than a multi-year high-dollar risk.
If Taylor B. recovers, the loss in 2010 will be negligible.
No records in the last 10 years should count.
yeah, I'm smelling a big of "not-this-good" as well
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Nov 15, 2009 8:23 PM MST up reply actions
Which is why
we do offer him arbitration. If he accepts he will come back and be our setup guy, if not then we get two first round draft picks assuming the Rockies don’t re-sign him.
JFK
because he's a relief pitcher
a single relief pitcher. Not signing Rafael Betancourt is not going to make us suddenly a 4th place team. Granted, I want him still, but he’s a luxury guy.
That said, if we don’t retain betancourt, I’d like to see a multi-year get done with Street. Although that may be out of our hands, so to speak.
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Nov 15, 2009 8:23 PM MST up reply actions
an important relief pitcher...
he has always been a consistent reliever in the set-up role in his career. Only had 1 bad year. I wouldn’t mind the 2 picks, I think that would be awesome. But knowing the Rockies we may just get another Rincon or Peralta to replace him. Lets hope I’m wrong though.
by Colsportsfan on Nov 15, 2009 11:38 PM MST up reply actions
We tried that with Hampton and Neagle and you see how that worked out.
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~Rogers Hornsby
Agree. Also as said earlier, it may open up the way to resign Beimel.
Now I’m not saying I’d take Beimel over Betancourt but if we lose Rafy, we’ve got to look at the bright side. Beimel is better than he showed with us last year.
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~Rogers Hornsby
How much would Betancourt get in arbitration?
Would it be more than the $5+M that he would have gotten from the original contract? Or would it be closer to reasonable setup money (i.e. $3M)?
It would be more than he made this year, which was about $3mil
He would get about $5mil
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Nov 16, 2009 9:30 AM MST up reply actions
Hye guys, remember Juan Morillio?
Apparently he’s heading to Japan.
Impossible not to have positive thoughts.
I want Sam Deduno to pitch already.
Yeah, I saw that.
If that guy ever manages to learn control, he could be a superstar.
by Greg Stanwood on Nov 15, 2009 10:08 PM MST up reply actions
He will learn control in Japan..
or quickly fly home. The Japanese league doesn’t put up with control issues.
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