Betancourt Set To Accept Arbitration
Reported on MLBTR, via Tracy Ringolsby with FoxSports.com. Betancourt will make some pretty serious cheese, but it's only for one year and he should remain a nice addition in the back end of the Rockies' pen.
about 2 years ago
Bryan Kilpatrick
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Hurray!! I love Betancourt.
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SAWEET!!!
Nice find TOGB. Thanks for the update. This season is looking good.
Now how much do people think he will make? I think it will be just below his option value.
JFK
Very good
I really didn’t want to lose RafBet to the evil east coasters.
Waiting out the Rockies' offseason by watching the Broncos succeeding at not failing to fail once the giddy rush of success has failed.
I like this pen:
Morales/Lindsay/Bucky/Weathers/Raffy/Street
To all of the doubters, to all of the haters, one simple message:
We will be back! Our purple knights will be victorious once again.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Dec 6, 2009 7:43 PM MST reply actions
that'll be a pretty great looking July
Hope got in my eyes
by Andrew Martin on Dec 6, 2009 7:59 PM MST up reply actions
Don't forget Jeff Francis as our LOOGY..
until he cracks the starting lineup in June.
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Well, that's what I thought would happen. There wasn't any way Betancourt was getting paid on the market, so arbitration was his only option.
It’ll probably cost the Rockies more than exercising his option would have—but the potential of the Type A picks covers the extra $1 million they’ll be paying him.
Eschew Obfuscation!
I'm not a betting man, but if I had to wager I'd put the over/under at his option ($5.4 million)...me taking the over of course.
Eschew Obfuscation!
His option
Was actually only 5mil. But since you are setting the O/U at 5.4 I will take the under. I actually think they’ll get a 2 yr deal done rather than go to arb.
Wager a ticket of some sort?
by Hizilla on Dec 7, 2009 12:31 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Um, nope, his option was $5.4 million, per Cot's.
IF it goes to arbitration, I’m not yet confident enough to predict (read: wager) on the outcome of the arbitration process with so little information. I’d like to see what the Rockies offer before I make that bet.
Eschew Obfuscation!
Cot's has lots
of incorrect information. I would take it as a pretty good guideline rather than bible. You should check out Renck’s blog on the matter.
The thing with the arbiters is that they place heavy reliance on stats like Wins, Saves, RBI’s etc. Relief Pitching is typically measured by Saves and ERA by the arbitration process, of which Betancourt has very few Saves.
I know you are very very high on Darren Oliver as a comp, but he is the exception for players like Betancourt, not the norm.
I honestly don’t think it will end up actually going to arbitration though, you probably know the number of times the Rox have actually gone in recent years.
I don't think that it will actually get there either (I think that the Rockies have been 3-5 times ever)...
I have just been predicting what would happen if it did get to that point.
Eschew Obfuscation!
Oh, and I had noticed that dichotomy about Betancourt's option...
I’m using Cot’s because I’ve used it for all of my articles referencing Betancourt.
Eschew Obfuscation!
Renck seems
kind of miffed about people having it wrong. He mentioned it again today being only 5Mil.
If they get a multi year deal done – all the worrying is kind of moot. I like Betancourt, but I would rather him accept and us get the draft picks. I told RMN last night – at least we aren’t in the situation the Braves in, having comitted nearly 10Mil to Wagner and Saito and having Soriano accept arb and likely get nearly 7Mil too. They’re screwed…especially having given up a draft pick for Wagner.
Yes, thank goodness that most of our bullpen comes cheaply.
Well, I hope that Betancourt declines or that he can be picked up for $4.5 million—I’m just not holding my breath.
I’d put the low end of Betancourt’s potential reward around 4.5 with the high end at 6.5
Eschew Obfuscation!
True
Cots is predicting that the Padres will sign Kevin Correia this Christmas Eve
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Dec 7, 2009 2:59 PM MST up reply actions
nicee niceee
we seem to have gotten over that HURDLE
thanks for a great season Rockies!
LETS GO WINGS!
any way DOD tries to work a 2 year deal with him to spread some dollars? Or would DOD want to?
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~Rogers Hornsby
I'm sure they'll keep negotiating, right up until the date of the hearing.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
Yes this is awesome!
I just wrote an article about the Rockies off season in my school newspaper, and dedicated an entire paragraph to discuss how the team need to keep Rafeal. He was huge last year
So, we really have to trade Hawpe now
Otherwise we’re over-budget and unable to get in any other quality free agents. Is that fair?
Here's a question
Would the Monforts be willing to increase payroll to accomodate both? Or should they?
’
Dear Rockies - Thank you for a wonderful rollercoaster of a season! NL Wild Card Champs. Best turnaround in MLB history for a team to win the Wild Card. Can't wait to do it again next year!
Troy Tulowitzki - MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba - Re-sign!! he's en Fuego!!
Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
If a hugely complex mathematical equation that they have to do when planning budgets every year works out to their benefit
Then… maybe. The Rockies are a team who will, under this management, always be run as a tight ship. Criticising the FO for not spending, say, another $10m this year – well, extrapolate that over the next twenty years, and suddenly we’re outspending the Yankees.
Where an owner chooses to limit the spending of a club is an arbitrary figure, sure, but one that comes closest to the perceived balancing point between risk and reward, prudence and profligacy, self-sufficiency and betting the farm. Adjusting this figure is something the owners must be prepared, to a point, to consider, but they must do it within the limitations of sensible business practice.
In short,
None of us know more than the smallest part of the state of the Monforts’, and the club’s, financial situation, and while we may well wish they would invest more heavily, we don’t have the right to criticise them for not doing so.
I didn't criticize, but I do have the right as a fan to criticize :)
Dear Rockies - Thank you for a wonderful rollercoaster of a season! NL Wild Card Champs. Best turnaround in MLB history for a team to win the Wild Card. Can't wait to do it again next year!
Troy Tulowitzki - MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba - Re-sign!! he's en Fuego!!
Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
Thing is, I'm not sure you do
Because the true situation is almost unknowable for the regular fan, so your criticism is likely to be based on your own assumptions that may or may not have any connection to the private reality.
Doesn’t mean you can’t moan, though :)
That's weird to me
As a fan that is paying for ExtraInnings or games or shirts or whatever else, that is contributing to an owner’s pockets and thusly payroll to an extent, I absolutely can criticize. Doesn’t mean I’m right in my criticism, but yup, I surely can criticize.
Dear Rockies - Thank you for a wonderful rollercoaster of a season! NL Wild Card Champs. Best turnaround in MLB history for a team to win the Wild Card. Can't wait to do it again next year!
Troy Tulowitzki - MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba - Re-sign!! he's en Fuego!!
Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
I guess you can criticise, I just think the criticism isn't liekly to be informed enough to be valid
It’s an interesting point – does being a paying fan mean you have rights beyond those of a non-paying fan, or a disinterested observer? I don’t know. You pay willingly, and unconditionally, so I’m not sure it does.
I don't pay unconditionally. Frankly,
I was thisclose to boycotting the Rox after the Holliday trade.
Dear Rockies - Thank you for a wonderful rollercoaster of a season! NL Wild Card Champs. Best turnaround in MLB history for a team to win the Wild Card. Can't wait to do it again next year!
Troy Tulowitzki - MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba - Re-sign!! he's en Fuego!!
Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
didn't matter to me...
had it not worked out in our favor would it still be right?
Dear Rockies - Thank you for a wonderful rollercoaster of a season! NL Wild Card Champs. Best turnaround in MLB history for a team to win the Wild Card. Can't wait to do it again next year!
Troy Tulowitzki - MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba - Re-sign!! he's en Fuego!!
Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
Do the ends justify the means?
Ah, the age-old question.
by controlled_slide on Dec 7, 2009 11:11 AM MST up reply actions
Yes.
Again, it’s expected value. We had a player who was going to become too expensive for the club, and we had the option of trading him for what was perceived at the time to be a decent deal. What happens afterwards is irrelevant.
you see, I am just the average uneducated fan
I still think we might have benefitted from that bat during the playoffs :)
Dear Rockies - Thank you for a wonderful rollercoaster of a season! NL Wild Card Champs. Best turnaround in MLB history for a team to win the Wild Card. Can't wait to do it again next year!
Troy Tulowitzki - MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba - Re-sign!! he's en Fuego!!
Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
Carlos Gonzalez' bat during the playoffs
.588/.632/.882. I daresay Holliday wouldn’t have been better than that.
by controlled_slide on Dec 7, 2009 11:23 AM MST up reply actions
Cargo did really answer that question pretty emphatically!
But the deeper answer is that, with Holliday in the side, we probably wouldn’t have been able to afford some of the players who became key parts of the WC-winning team – Marquis, Betancourt, Giambi, all on relatively high $$$ which we’d have been paying to Holliday. We also probably wouldn’t have been able to draft Matzek. Does it still sound the preferable route?
"What happens afterwards is irrelevant."
What? Of course its relevant. The “perceived as a decent deal” is what is irrelevant.
Eh?
So if you marry your childhood sweetheart, leave the church, place her in your cherished Maserati and a dumptruck falls on top of the car, squashing them both, does this mean marrying her was a mistake?
Dude, the whole point is that we can only make decisions based on what we know now. We don’t have hindsight. If Tulo blows out his knee in spring training and never plays again, did we make a mistake in signing him to a long term deal?
I guess if you live in theoretical-land
you can play this all day. (I know you aren’t married to these, but your analogies are not at all relevant to the discussion). DOD’s job is to make the “right” decision, not the “perceived right” decision. This isn’t a statistical experiment. The only thing that matters is actual results. Do you think DOD would have a job right now if CarGon was wasting as a bust in AAA and Street had flamed out?
I wouldn't criticize him for it
Hindsight is a tool too often wielded as a sledgehammer in judgement.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Dec 7, 2009 11:44 AM MST up reply actions
Of course
that’s why DOD and others get paid the big bucks, to have the foresight. In today’s information age, anybody can make “on paper” decisions, that’s why we have millions of internet commandos deriding every move teams/managers/players make. The tricky part is doing it right in the first place.
Here's my stance
Decisions can be affixed with a “good” or “bad” label with the use of hindsight. However, we shouldn’t use that to judge performance. Tampa Bay shouldn’t be criticized for choosing Josh Hamilton first overall. It was ultimately the wrong choice, but it was the most sensible and informed choice at the time. Choosing Matt Bush first overall, however, is a bad decision no matter which angle you look at it
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Dec 7, 2009 2:57 PM MST up reply actions
The sheer thought of Tulo never playing again has ruined my day
I wonder if Bud Selig will give the Yankees a receipt with their World Series purchase
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 7, 2009 11:43 AM MST up reply actions
lol.
I know what you mean there..
Dear Rockies - Thank you for a wonderful rollercoaster of a season! NL Wild Card Champs. Best turnaround in MLB history for a team to win the Wild Card. Can't wait to do it again next year!
Troy Tulowitzki - MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba - Re-sign!! he's en Fuego!!
Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
I think the point here is
If your wife goes all crazy and turns into a nagging shrew or whatever. You made a poor judgment when choosing a wife. If Street and Gonzalez had turned out to be busts, then fans would probably be calling for O’Dowd’s head. If Tulo had kept going with 2008-type seasons then the long-term contract would look silly. Your act-of-God arguments are false analogies.
by controlled_slide on Dec 7, 2009 11:43 AM MST up reply actions
By the way
I agree with Biondino. I’m just saying that your analogies were imperfect.
by controlled_slide on Dec 7, 2009 11:45 AM MST up reply actions
What happens afterward doesn't matter in your decision making process then...
at that point it is a sunk cost.
Eschew Obfuscation!
Absolutely
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Dec 7, 2009 11:20 AM MST up reply actions
Man I usually like your insight
but today you are all askew with me. No right to criticize? Silly. No right to expect criticizm to have impact? Try that one.
Okay. You have a right to free speech and criticism comes under that.
I think in this kind of circumstance – when you’re criticising the private financial considerations of strangers – you may well find that your criticism isn’t remotely based on reality. Which is why I said you can complain all you like but unless that complaint is based on something tangible and real, it’s not reasonable to expect it to have any effect.
I never said
that its rational or accurate. But if you buy a pro sports team, you open yourself up to scrutiny of how you manage it. Of course most don’t have internal insight into the specific finances of the Monforts, its possible they themselves don’t have a great handle on it if other MLB owners are examples. The point is not whether the criticism is entirely accurate, the point is that fans get to whine about whatever they want. And you are well entitled to call them out on it. ANd so on.
I don't know...
I think Jabberwocky might be overestimating Betancourt’s 2010 salary a bit as the lost time with his injury in 2009 increases club risk and therefore lowers the amount of an arbitration award, but there’s a strong a possibility he ends up at least somewhere near his option level and could conceivably go over it. Hawpe’s not the only way the Rockies could save money elsewhere, however. Manny Corpas and Jorge De La Rosa will also likely be made available, and I’m guessing that the Rockies are now more likely to non-tender Matt Murton as well as Atkins next week.
FWIW,
Morosi at the FoxSports blog estimates $4 million as a 2010 salary for Betancourt, and that’s closer to where I’ve heard he winds up. I still think the Rockies made the right decision in declining his option.
That makes a lot of sense
I really don’t know why jabbs is so confident betancourt will get a 150+% raise. Not only does it seem to high for rafael’s specific case. But I have a hard time thinking the rox brass would neglect to research enough to project his arbitration raise before offering him arb.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Dec 7, 2009 9:00 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
With arb, does it work like:
The Rox make an offer of $x
Betancourt makes a demand of $x+y
The arbitrators HAVE to decide whether x or x+y is fairer, and choose one, but can’t decide on $x+z, where z is less than y, is that right?
2 yrs @8.2 mil
Is what i think it would take to avoid Arb. whether you do that don’t know. My guess is Arbitration will garner him 1 yr @4.3-4.5 mil
I believe you are correct
The arbitrators must choose either the Rockies’ offer or Betancourt’s demand. That’s what happened a few years ago with Ryan Howard. Yes, then number they gave him broke the record for an arbitration contract, but they had to give it to him because, in their estimation, the Phillies’ offer was too low.
by controlled_slide on Dec 7, 2009 9:45 AM MST up reply actions
Yep
to add a little to what controlled_slide says, both sides will often be willing to settle before the hearing at an $x + z level to mitigate the risk of losing and hearings will generally only take place when a team deems a player’s bid so outlandishly high that compromise becomes ruled out. The Rockies under O’Dowd have been very good at gauging player values, they lost early in his regime to Dennys Reyes in 2002, but otherwise have either settled before a hearing or won.
This is partially why I trust O'Dowd
not to have declined the option and offered arbitration if there was any likelihood Betancourt would make more money.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Dec 7, 2009 10:03 AM MST up reply actions
I think Rox Girl said this already
But the possibility of getting draft picks as compensation if Bet refused arb is something which can be quantifiably valued. The fact that he didn’t decline (assuming it’s confirmed) doesn’t mean this potential value is negated. Sure, the draft picks become an irrelevance, but when the game was being played between the club and the player, they were of actual and real value to the club.
i.e. even if Raf DOES end up getting a sum above his option price
the $ difference may well be less than the $ value the club assigned to the phantom draft picks, and that makes the deal a good one even if, in this situation, in actuality we lose out.
(it’s like poker – if you have a 25% chance of winning a hand if you call, and you only need to put in 10% of the pot to do so, then you call every time – sure, 3 times out of 4 you lose, but the one time you win you win way more than you lose the other three times combined – it’s called Expected Value and it’s a key part of this kind of deal)
Understood
Though with the market as it stands and his Type A standing, the probability of him declining arbitration is sufficiently small that the phantom picks have a low phantom value in themselves in the grand scheme of things. I still don’t think he’ll get north of option year money
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Dec 7, 2009 10:17 AM MST up reply actions
I love using expected value
Although it only works in situations with a large sample size (like every statistic I suppose). Watching the show Deal or No Deal, which, for such a stupid show is strangely fascinating, I tend to think in terms of whether a deal makes sense statistically, which is not the correct way of looking at it. Sure, over the long term declining the deal may be the statistically favorable decision, but that person’s never getting on the show again; he should take the money in most cases.
I’m not sure where baseball arbitration offers fall here. I would think that making the statistically correct decision might not be the best way to proceed when dealing with one-of-a-kind talent (or anything approaching it), but may be the correct way to proceed with a somewhat replaceable guy like Betancourt.
by controlled_slide on Dec 7, 2009 11:10 AM MST up reply actions
Expected value works in all sample sizes.
If I offer you $10 if it’s heads and you have to pay me $5 if it’s tails, you take that deal every time. It’s a single event, but it still has +ve expected value.
Of course, there comes a point when other factors become more important than pure value.
If I offer you $1m if it’s heads for your $500,000 house if it’s tails, then the expected value sum is exactly the same, but the risk of losing your house rather than $5 makes most rational people turn this offer down without a second thought.
While the Purple Row time stamp
seems to think it was a minute. :-)
I wonder if Bud Selig will give the Yankees a receipt with their World Series purchase
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 7, 2009 11:20 AM MST up reply actions
But let's say that it's a little different
I get $10,000 for heads and pay $5,000 for tails. If we’re only flipping once, then is it fiscally responsible for me to take it (assuming here that I don’t have $5,000 to blow on a coin flip)? My expected return is $7,500, but I don’t magically get $7,500 for accepting your offer. I could blow 3 months’ mortgage on the flip of a coin. Even on a 50% chance of getting $10,000, I can’t take it.
by controlled_slide on Dec 7, 2009 11:18 AM MST up reply actions
I actually think my expected outcome is $2,500
Math a little off in my haste.
by controlled_slide on Dec 7, 2009 11:21 AM MST up reply actions
Absolutely
However, I think that the Betancourt deal was much more like the former example than the latter example. The worst case scenario is we get to keep a good player we all want for slightly more than the going rate (above $5.4m), while the good, better and best case scenarios may not have been the likely outcome, but they gave value to the risk.
I agree
Like I said, for a somewhat replaceable player like Betancourt it makes sense to play the odds, as we’ll probably get more chances with players of his caliber down the line where, if he didn’t work out, someone else would.
by controlled_slide on Dec 7, 2009 11:25 AM MST up reply actions
First of all, it's an 83% raise, and secondly, it's based on the precedent set by Darren Oliver last year.
Eschew Obfuscation!
My math brain screwed up
83% raise, ~150% of his 2008 salary. I understand the Oliver reference, but I really think that’s the exception. I don’t see Betancourt getting that kind of bump based on that case alone
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Dec 7, 2009 3:01 PM MST up reply actions
We'll just have to see I guess...
I was representing $6.4 million as the high end of what Betancourt would receive (it always pays when estimating payroll to err on the conservative side) with a lower range just under his $5 million option.
Eschew Obfuscation!
It makes sense to err on the conservative side for budgeting payroll for sure
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Dec 8, 2009 9:11 AM MST up reply actions
Looks like Raffy accepted.
According to Renck:
http://twitter.com/rocktober/status/6453034335
http://twitter.com/blakebomber


















