Monday Rockpile: Winter Meetings Open Thread

by Russ Oates on Dec 7, 2009 6:41 AM MST in Rockpile

Betancourt weighing his options on Rockies’ arbitration offer | All Things Rockies
Troy Renck isn't quite as sure as Tracy Ringolby on Rafael Betancourt's decision to accept the Rockies offer of arbitration. Maybe that has something to do with the Brewers still having some interest in the pitcher, but apparently their offer isn't as good as what he'll receive in arbitration as well as the loss of draft picks. O'Dowd and Betancourt's agent will meet today.

Baseball Prospectus | Prospectus Today: NL Shopping Lists (Subscription Required)
Joe Sheehan runs down what each NL team's situation is as the Winter Meetings start. Sheehan's section on the Rockies revolves around moving Brad Hawpe for a starting pitcher or an infielder.

BaseballAmerica.com: Blog: John Manuel’s Early Take On The Talent Rankings
John Manuel put together his personal minor league rankings, and the Rockies are somewhere in the 6-15 range.

Pirates made less than $11 million past two years
This is not surprising.

Let the Winter Meetings begin!

Tweet Comment 76 comments | 0 recs |

Do you like this story?

Comments

Rockies among teams interested in Kevin Gregg,

from Yahoo!‘s Tim Brown w/ a hat tip to MLBTR. As it is suggested by Tim Dierkes, this is probably like the Rockies interest in LaTroy Hawkins and contingent on Betancourt declining arbitration. It is interesting in Renck’s article this morning that Hawkins is mentioned as a right handed complement to Matt Belisle and Matt Daley, with both Taylor Buchholz and Manny Corpas being omitted. I wonder what the Rockies really project for those latter two in 2010. I would think that if they don’t feel he can help, they’d particularly like to unload Corpas and his remaining contract.

by Rox Girl on Dec 7, 2009 8:59 AM MST reply actions

I hope Bucky can give us half a season of Daley-style-plus effectiveness

I loved him before and I long to love him again.

by biondino on Dec 7, 2009 9:17 AM MST up reply actions

I have been meaning to ask this for awhile

but can we honestly see this same type of production from Daley going forward? Or was his performance more a product of getting lucky aka Bucky in 2008?

by Muzia on Dec 7, 2009 9:25 AM MST reply actions

That's a good question

It’s so hard to tell because Daley was a rookie and there is no other MLB data to compare this season with to say he was lucky. One thing I like about Daley though is that he throws strikes. He’s certainly not overpowering but he’s not afraid to make the pitcher beat him and I like that that; especially with our defense.

I wonder if Bud Selig will give the Yankees a receipt with their World Series purchase

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 7, 2009 9:40 AM MST up reply actions

He's not going to be as dominant as he was early in 2009 going forward,

At least, extremely unlikely to, but where his production drops off to is difficult to gauge. There are signs that once hitters figure him out, he becomes very hittable, and I’m discouraged looking at his splits against NL West competition (the batters that have seen him the most) particularly the Dodgers.

What he does provide is a different look from any other pitcher in our bullpen, and forcing hitters to adjust to him is at least a bit beneficial, I just think Tracy should be careful not to overuse him.

by Rox Girl on Dec 7, 2009 9:51 AM MST up reply actions

Zaun out

There was some speculation The Rox might go after veteran catcher Gregg Zaun. He just signed with the Brewers.

by Rox4brains on Dec 7, 2009 9:42 AM MST reply actions

It was announced that he would sign with Milwaukee last Friday,

so this isn’t new, it’s just now official.

by Rox Girl on Dec 7, 2009 9:43 AM MST up reply actions

Check. :)

by Rox4brains on Dec 7, 2009 9:44 AM MST up reply actions

That Pirate article is really interesting

It gets really juicy when you get down to the “Charges Multiply” part. The numbers that Frank Coonelly and John Henry/Scott Boras are throwing out there are so different that somebody has to be flat out lying.

I wonder if Bud Selig will give the Yankees a receipt with their World Series purchase

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 7, 2009 9:45 AM MST reply actions

I'm astonished at the thought that all mlb teams should be considered profit-making machines.

Looking at premiership soccer in the UK – not a direct comparison, by any means, but a sport with similar profile, TV income, salaries, attendances etc. – the majority of clubs struggle to stay in the black, and several have had really serious brushes with bankruptcy and liquidation. Even the big clubs can go years without making a profit. I’d be staggered if Boras is anywhere close to correct in his estimates.

by biondino on Dec 7, 2009 9:51 AM MST up reply actions

I agree with you because Boras sites

a NY news article that uses “unnamed sources” but I still have some doubts.

1) Revenue Sharing. We know that teams like the Pirates are getting money and yet they don’t seem willing to pay any players.

2) John Henry says that

“Change is needed, and that is reflected by the fact that over a billion dollars have been paid to seven chronically uncompetitive teams, five of whom had baseball’s highest operating profits. Who, except these teams, can think this is a good idea?”

(Unless he is also full of it)

I guess what I’m saying is that something just doesn’t add up here from both ends.

I wonder if Bud Selig will give the Yankees a receipt with their World Series purchase

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 7, 2009 10:05 AM MST up reply actions

You are assuming the Revenue Sharing money is enough to make a difference

Just becasue the Pirates, Royals, Orioles, etc. get some revenue sharing money doesn’t mean it makes a difference.

Example. You are going in the race car business, and you get $50k to buy your winning nascar car. You know that some have$200k to build theirs. You can spend your $50k, and lose cause the big boys have more resources. OR you can pocket the $50k, and still lose.

The revenue sharing that baseball has now is like that example. It’s nice, but doesn’t even the playing field near enough to be more than a joke.

by Redhawk on Dec 7, 2009 11:23 AM MST up reply actions

True

but there’s two fact we do know.

1) Teams are getting Revenue Sharing
2) Many of those team’s payrolls are not going up

You’re right that there are other factors at work and that it might not make all the sense to put the money back in right now because you will still lose, but I’m not convinced some of these owners are not fudging the numbers a little bit.

I wonder if Bud Selig will give the Yankees a receipt with their World Series purchase

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 7, 2009 11:33 AM MST up reply actions

The problem is that we as baseball fans tend to equate payrolls w/ expenses

And the former only makes up a portion of the latter. Things that we also know that you don’t include:

The actual “revenue” from Revenue sharing has been more or less static over the last three years.

Expenses outside of player payroll have been going up, in some cases substantially. For instance, travel costs in the country have been shooting up quite a bit over the last three years, and when you think about how that relates to a professional sports organization that not only has to pay for the travel to and from 81 road games in a season, but also for the travel of six minor league affiliates, the numbers begin to spike up rather dramatically. Another example is bonuses to draft picks and international signings, which are separate from player payroll, but have inflating at huge rates since the last CBA, particularly for Latin American players.

I don’t want to go completely to the owners’ defense here, as I pointed out, some of these “capital investments” and a lot of the debt payments that they pretend are for the club actually will wind up benefiting them more than anybody and MLB itself is spending a lot of operating income in capital investments for the league which essentially build the value of every owner’s investment without getting distributed to players, but at the same time, agents like Boras are being a bit disingenuous when they ignore the real expenses of clubs outside of payroll, particularly when they are direct beneficiaries of some of that money (namely their chunk of draftee signing bonuses).

by Rox Girl on Dec 7, 2009 11:47 AM MST up reply actions

Oh wait

Are you talking about whether or not to believe Coonelly or Boras or are you talking about if the revenue sharing is enough to make the Pirates competitive?

I wonder if Bud Selig will give the Yankees a receipt with their World Series purchase

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 7, 2009 11:36 AM MST up reply actions

very interesting read..

call me crazy, but I think Boras might be more on target. I’m sure the truth is somewhere in the middle…The Pirates owner has to say something to keep the fans from really jumping ship.

Dear Rockies - Thank you for a wonderful rollercoaster of a season! NL Wild Card Champs. Best turnaround in MLB history for a team to win the Wild Card. Can't wait to do it again next year!

Troy Tulowitzki - MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba - Re-sign!! he's en Fuego!!
Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!

by SDcat09 on Dec 7, 2009 10:05 AM MST up reply actions

I like how you worked in the Pirate fans jumping ship reference in there :-)

Very nice

I wonder if Bud Selig will give the Yankees a receipt with their World Series purchase

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 7, 2009 10:09 AM MST up reply actions

I agree

Those sorts of puns are the sort of thing Shakespeare used all the time. We have someone with quite a future in our midst.

by crazedjohn on Dec 7, 2009 11:06 AM MST up reply actions

I'm not quite sure if this is a compliment or sarcasm :)

Dear Rockies - Thank you for a wonderful rollercoaster of a season! NL Wild Card Champs. Best turnaround in MLB history for a team to win the Wild Card. Can't wait to do it again next year!

by SDcat09 on Dec 7, 2009 11:08 AM MST up reply actions

Sort of both?

I don’t really know either.

by crazedjohn on Dec 7, 2009 11:09 AM MST up reply actions

I enjoy a good pun myself..

however, I didn’t really even think about the reference when I made the comment

Dear Rockies - Thank you for a wonderful rollercoaster of a season! NL Wild Card Champs. Best turnaround in MLB history for a team to win the Wild Card. Can't wait to do it again next year!

by SDcat09 on Dec 7, 2009 11:23 AM MST up reply actions

That just confirms you are a genius!

by Muzia on Dec 7, 2009 11:24 AM MST up reply actions

Does anyone have a pedestal?

by crazedjohn on Dec 7, 2009 11:56 AM MST up reply actions

I carry my own pedestal

from which I frequently knock myself off.

Dear Rockies - Thank you for a wonderful rollercoaster of a season! NL Wild Card Champs. Best turnaround in MLB history for a team to win the Wild Card. Can't wait to do it again next year!

by SDcat09 on Dec 7, 2009 12:22 PM MST up reply actions

The Pirates owner is giving a lot more actual data than Boras, however

Who really does seem to be pulling some of his figures out of his backside. I really think that owners aren’t lying when they say they can’t spend more on players than they do, but I also think that they are clever in putting the money instead in places that it will benefit them in the long run. A lot of the Pirates’ capital investments mentioned in the article such as the purchase of the minor league club and Latin America academy are likely to retain value and could add to a big profit for ownership when the team gets sold again.

by Rox Girl on Dec 7, 2009 10:11 AM MST up reply actions

Can a business person explain what "operating profit" means

And whether a club can earn an operating profit but still, in real terms, be losing money?

by biondino on Dec 7, 2009 10:16 AM MST up reply actions

I had a test on this last year

If I remember correctly it’s a measure of a company’s earning power before you deduct for taxes and interest payments. Your operating profit will be higher than your net income.

I wonder if Bud Selig will give the Yankees a receipt with their World Series purchase

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 7, 2009 10:28 AM MST up reply actions

Operating profit is money earned (or lost) before interest, taxes, depreciation or other losses

not related to the day to day operations of the club are taken into account. So a club could make an operating profit but have a debt obligation that eats it, as it did some of the Pirates operating profit. The article also says they made capital investments with it, which aren’t day to day expenses, even though they will result in added expenses (and in the case of the minor league franchise, revenue) to the operating bottom line.

by Rox Girl on Dec 7, 2009 10:29 AM MST up reply actions

You would think that the Nationals would be higher on the prospect list

with the high pick they get every single year.

I wonder if Bud Selig will give the Yankees a receipt with their World Series purchase

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 7, 2009 9:49 AM MST reply actions

Bobby Crosby

Tigers are interested in him as a full time SS.

by phishbate on Dec 7, 2009 9:52 AM MST reply actions

Wow.

by Muzia on Dec 7, 2009 10:01 AM MST up reply actions

doesn't seem like a great fit

but if any teams are serious about giving him a starting job it’ll certainly be tougher for the rox to get him. It does seem like the interest in him is picking up a lot.

by phishbate on Dec 7, 2009 10:52 AM MST up reply actions

It's a terrible fit

but he would be reasonably priced for them and honestly, there isn’t anyone else out there. I know it’s the AL Central and everyone is a contender, but has their window already closed?

by Muzia on Dec 7, 2009 11:06 AM MST up reply actions

i guess it's a cheap solution

they’ve had a pretty confusing off-season so far though

by phishbate on Dec 7, 2009 11:17 AM MST up reply actions

BLS has a nice Winter Meeting tracker going

Big League Stew

by phishbate on Dec 7, 2009 10:50 AM MST reply actions

this is an interesting link to follow

thanks for providing it :)

Dear Rockies - Thank you for a wonderful rollercoaster of a season! NL Wild Card Champs. Best turnaround in MLB history for a team to win the Wild Card. Can't wait to do it again next year!

by SDcat09 on Dec 7, 2009 11:39 AM MST up reply actions

they've gotten a little goofy with Brian Bruney trade talk

but it’s a neat mash-up of a blog, live chat & twitter. they’ve done it in the past (like draft day) and it’s usually pretty interesting

by phishbate on Dec 7, 2009 11:42 AM MST reply actions

Nobody's mentioned the Miguel Olivo rumor here yet,

but add his name to the list of catchers the Rockies are purportedly looking at.

Olivo’s basically Chris Iannetta without the walks, I’d rather have Torrealba back, but he’s a better plan B than Paul Phillips.

Also, according to Andrew Baggarly, Brad Penny is heading toward St. Louis, which pleases me since it weakens the Giants rotation quite a bit.

by Rox Girl on Dec 7, 2009 11:58 AM MST reply actions

without ANY walks

like ever

Hope got in my eyes

by Andrew Martin on Dec 7, 2009 12:26 PM MST up reply actions

I remember looking at stats sometime in June, and he was listed as having 2 walks

I thought it must have been a misprint, turns out not

by djmbluemoon on Dec 7, 2009 12:28 PM MST up reply actions

yeah, but HE HITZ DINGERZ

by Rox Girl on Dec 7, 2009 12:34 PM MST up reply actions

he's totally a Dayton Moore player

Hope got in my eyes

by Andrew Martin on Dec 7, 2009 1:02 PM MST up reply actions

The Padres may non-tender Kevin Correia.

Wow.

by Greg Stanwood on Dec 7, 2009 12:05 PM MST reply actions

Strange indeed

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Dec 7, 2009 12:13 PM MST up reply actions

hmmm that is definitely odd

Dear Rockies - Thank you for a wonderful rollercoaster of a season! NL Wild Card Champs. Best turnaround in MLB history for a team to win the Wild Card. Can't wait to do it again next year!

by SDcat09 on Dec 7, 2009 12:16 PM MST up reply actions

Biggest news of the day

Brad Pitt will play Billy Beane in Moneyball pic. This story MUST be brought to the masses.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118012269.html?categoryid=13&cs=1

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart." - A. Bartlett Giamatti

by Rawktober on Dec 7, 2009 12:10 PM MST reply actions

I'm still angry Soderbergh was fired.

by Greg Stanwood on Dec 7, 2009 12:13 PM MST up reply actions

Why couldn't they have gotten Norm McDonald?

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Dec 7, 2009 12:14 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs

oh dear God that'd be magnificent

Hope got in my eyes

by Andrew Martin on Dec 7, 2009 12:26 PM MST up reply actions

AHHAHHAHHAHHAHAH

+1000

You just made my day.

by Muzia on Dec 7, 2009 12:27 PM MST up reply actions

PF FTW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoLm-vD89SQ

Winners never quit, and quitters never win. But if you never quit *and* never win, you are an idiot

by squalene203 on Dec 7, 2009 1:11 PM MST up reply actions

So what are they going to call the picture..."The Legend of the Fall of the Oakland A's" ?

People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~Rogers Hornsby

by pedalpusher on Dec 7, 2009 12:20 PM MST up reply actions

They are regressing like Benjamin Button

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Dec 7, 2009 12:23 PM MST up reply actions

hehe

I wonder if Bud Selig will give the Yankees a receipt with their World Series purchase

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Dec 7, 2009 10:08 PM MST up reply actions

Since they may be leaving Oakland if this continues, that could be almost literal.

by Greg Stanwood on Dec 7, 2009 12:23 PM MST up reply actions

Bahh.

I’m never going to finish my film theory paper. I’m going to be distracted all day by the meetings.

by Greg Stanwood on Dec 7, 2009 12:17 PM MST reply actions

Cubs and Royals officially discussing Gil Meche for Milton Bradley.

Got someone in the meeting on Twitter.

by Greg Stanwood on Dec 7, 2009 12:22 PM MST reply actions

why on earth would anyone want to trade for Milton Bradley???

People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~Rogers Hornsby

by pedalpusher on Dec 7, 2009 12:23 PM MST up reply actions

He finds interested parties every year.

by Greg Stanwood on Dec 7, 2009 12:24 PM MST up reply actions

Milton Bradley and Jose Guillen in the same outfield....

fireworks?

by djmbluemoon on Dec 7, 2009 12:24 PM MST up reply actions

I'd like to see Milton Bradley and Ozzie Guillen in the same dugout

Dear Rockies - Thank you for a wonderful rollercoaster of a season! NL Wild Card Champs. Best turnaround in MLB history for a team to win the Wild Card. Can't wait to do it again next year!

by SDcat09 on Dec 7, 2009 12:26 PM MST up reply actions