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Thursday Rockpile: The Rockies outfield much better without Holliday?

ARE YOU READY FOR A CHALLENGE!!!???!?

Kidding.., kidding.., I'm not sure what this year's Snakepit challenge will be that we'll inevitably lose, but I'm sure it will be a doozy. Today, though, I have something that most people will probably think is similarly well outside the sanity reserve. I think the Rockies 2009 outfield is better than the 2008 outfield, and not just by a little bit, either. Yesterday's trade was a huge move for the team that just filled in what was the outfield's last question mark. 

How big is yesterday's trade for the Rockies? In their careers in strict platoon roles, Seth Smith .314/.394/.514 vs. RHP's and Matt Murton .311/.382/.484 vs LHP's, come surprisingly close to Matt Holliday's overall level of production (.318/.386/.552), minus just a little bit of power. If you figure Murton could get a bump from playing at Coors, the gap could close even more.

Let me explain in real terms what that means: a gap of .050 in slugging percentage represents only 30 total bases of difference over the course of 600 AB's. If the batting averages are equal, and in this case they are pretty close, that means the entire difference between Matt and Meth Smirton can be accounted for in extra base hits. Let's say Matt makes that 30 base gap by hitting ten more homeruns (each HR is worth 3 total bases more than a single) than our projected platoon. Each home run is worth approximately 1.45 runs for Colorado hitters, for a total of 14.5 runs over the season for those ten extra HR's. Since you can't score partial runs, let's round up and give Matt a full 15 run advantage, but you've got to also give Murton and Smith credit for singles instead, each of those is worth just under a half run, meaning when all is said and done, Matt's career advantage over our 2009 parts is about 10 to 11 runs a season, or one single solitary win difference.

So as the offseason is coming to a close, the Rockies traded their best hitter and took only a one win loss of production in left field. They let their poor hitting centerfielder go and look to gain nearly three wins. Outfield defense is still terrible, the players are actually worse defenders talent wise, but it should be about two wins better than last year by default because of severe underperformance on the defensive side of things last season. I'm looking at our OF and I'm seeing a four to five win swing of performance out there. That's before looking at Tulo or Atkins or Helton rebounding in the infield, before looking at the impact of more Iannetta or Ian Stewart, before looking at the improved quality of the bottom of our rotation. Anyway, this was a solid move by O'Dowd yesterday to slough off a redundant part for a key missing component.

In a sense, since they bookended the same offseason, you could combine the two A's/Rockies trade to get a Holliday plus Wimberly for Gonzalez, Street, Smith and Murton exchange. Murton added to Smith becomes the Holliday replacement for the Rockies. If those career stats hold and they do prove only one win less valuable, the Rox would only need to get more than one win of added value from Street, Smith and CarGon over who they wind up bumping out of playing time to come out ahead this year, let alone a couple of seasons down the road. That's a pretty impressive feat considering who the team had to give up.

WHEN ROCKIES FANS GO BAD

It's fairly common to read about crooks wearing Yankees or Dodgers regalia while perpetrating their crimes. Common, because these teams have long established brands and ubiquitous fanbases. Not common is to read of heists outside Colorado by people wearing Rockies gear. Now I know I'm going to hell for thinking this when I read the article; rather than "I hope the victims are okay," or some similarly decent thought, I thought "Hey, the Rockies brand is expanding" but then my second thought was "You idiot, you've got to be like one of three people in the San Jose area with a Rockies sweatshirt." The Rockies expanded brand presence will soon be diminished once more as that moron fan inevitably gets ratted out and heads to prison.

SPEAKING OF THE BIG HOUSE

Casa Grande, Arizona, has a measure on the ballot to create a levy in hopes of luring either the Rockies or D-backs, or both, to the city for Spring Training. The town, about forty-five minutes south of Tempe, may still be too far removed from the greater Phoenix metro area to get other teams' top players on the travel squad.

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But he did it in

one of those awful green pieces of Rockies apparel. That’s enough to send him to prison.

"If we never try, we shall never succeed." - Abraham Lincoln

Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!

by Russ Oates on Feb 5, 2009 8:28 AM MST reply actions  

Snakepit Challenge

Great article. I think we are going to miss Matt less than we think – Unless he goes on to win the AL MVP award.

Would you refresh my memory and maybe others as to how the challenge started and what the last two have been – I think there have been two. Also, are there any thoughts on what this year’s may be.

TGFPR!!

by jlot10 on Feb 5, 2009 9:40 AM MST reply actions  

Even if he does win ALMVP

It’s just gonna boost his price tag by another $4M/year.

Follow me on Twitter! http://www.twitter.com/rockiesmagicnum

by Andrew Martin on Feb 5, 2009 9:43 AM MST up reply actions  

2007: Livan Hernandez’s season performance vs. …… um, someone on the Rockies
2008: Straight head to head record

"Of course, it’s downright frightening to imagine how two Adam Dunns would turn the double play." - Joe Posnanski

by DbacksSkins on Feb 9, 2009 10:48 AM MST up reply actions  

Wasn't it like

Rodrigo Lopez and his Fancy Elbow Ligament?

Follow me on Twitter! http://www.twitter.com/rockiesmagicnum

by Andrew Martin on Feb 10, 2009 10:26 AM MST up reply actions  

Yup.

I remembered that after posting that comment.

By the way, the AZSnakepit does not take responsibility for, nor condone, any alcohol-related accidents or injuries incurred, directly or indirectly, as a result of reading this website.

by DbacksSkins on Feb 13, 2009 12:02 PM MST up reply actions  

Meth Smirton is very funny.

Follow me on Twitter! http://www.twitter.com/rockiesmagicnum

by Andrew Martin on Feb 5, 2009 9:41 AM MST reply actions   1 recs

I love it

Give me images of Smurfs taking psychostimulants

"Winning doesn't really matter as long as you win." - Vinny Jones

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 5, 2009 9:50 AM MST up reply actions  

Are

we all Meth addicts yet?

"If we never try, we shall never succeed." - Abraham Lincoln

Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!

by Russ Oates on Feb 5, 2009 11:19 AM MST up reply actions  

Just to make sure I'm reading this right

Holliday’s offense + Holliday’s defense – Taveras’ offense – Taveras’ defense = Spilborghs’ offense + Spilborghs’ defense + Murton’s v LHP offense + Murton’s prorated defense + Smith’s v RHP offense + Smith’s prorated defense +1 win

right?

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by Andrew Martin on Feb 5, 2009 9:50 AM MST reply actions  

Nope, I'm going beyond that

Adding offensive and defensive contributions, 2009 Spilly + Fowler (There’s a lower limit for Spilborgh’s performance which would trigger Dexter in center for the bulk of what would remain of the season) + 2009 Murton vs LHP’s + Smith vs RHP’s > 2008 Holliday + Taveras. I really think Spilly’s defensive contribution will come in right around equal to Taveras’s 2008 (Willy severely underplayed defensively last season) if Fowler’s bat is ready early, defense in center could see a big swing forward. All told, though, actual 2008 vs projected 2009 defense pretty much cancels out in left and center, meaning the difference will entirely come down to offensive contributions.

Matt and Willy did combine to provide an extra win and a half on the basepaths, added to the win advantage Holliday’s bat has in left, our 2009 center field has to be 25 runs ahead of what Taveras did at the plate in 2008 to break even. Luckily, that’s not a hard standard to reach.

by Rox Girl on Feb 5, 2009 10:33 AM MST up reply actions  

Sign Manny and see what happens

Follow me on Twitter! http://www.twitter.com/rockiesmagicnum

by Andrew Martin on Feb 5, 2009 10:50 AM MST up reply actions  

I'm getting an error

when trying to follow the heist link…

"Winning doesn't really matter as long as you win." - Vinny Jones

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 5, 2009 9:51 AM MST reply actions  

+1

Follow me on Twitter! http://www.twitter.com/rockiesmagicnum

by Andrew Martin on Feb 5, 2009 10:01 AM MST up reply actions  

Copy and paste the link

instead of clicking on it.

"If we never try, we shall never succeed." - Abraham Lincoln

Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!

by Russ Oates on Feb 5, 2009 10:02 AM MST up reply actions  

nope

nothing loads

Follow me on Twitter! http://www.twitter.com/rockiesmagicnum

by Andrew Martin on Feb 5, 2009 10:12 AM MST up reply actions  

looks like

the Rox are starting to get some street cred!

Aut Vincam Aut Periam

by PioneerSkies on Feb 5, 2009 2:00 PM MST up reply actions  

The funny thing is

They wrote that like they didn’t even realize it was a team.

Blast and botheration.

by Silverblood on Feb 5, 2009 2:43 PM MST up reply actions  

"The Colorado Rockies

…a Based Ball team…"

Follow me on Twitter! http://www.twitter.com/rockiesmagicnum

by Andrew Martin on Feb 5, 2009 3:27 PM MST up reply actions  

Beware of sample size...

in the case of both Smith and Murton. They’ve got nowhere near enough PAs to determine if their career numbers are a legitimate representation of their future production. Heck, Smith has never been an everyday player for the Rockies and Murton hasn’t played regularly since early 2007. I agree about the center-field win difference, but where does Ian Stewart play? He’ll doubtless take some LF ABs from Smith/Murton too. Overall, I’d temper your enthusiasm a little on that front Rox Girl.

Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Feb 5, 2009 10:27 AM MST reply actions  

Rox Girl

is an infernal — er, I mean eternal — optimist.

Blast and botheration.

by Silverblood on Feb 5, 2009 10:39 AM MST up reply actions  

An etherial optimist maybe?

ooooooo…. the Rockies will winnnn….. ooooo

by Rox Girl on Feb 5, 2009 11:07 AM MST up reply actions  

Methinks you mean

an ethereal optimist.

Blast and botheration.

by Silverblood on Feb 5, 2009 11:33 AM MST up reply actions  

does that mean bad speller?

I think that is what it means, then.

by Rox Girl on Feb 5, 2009 12:14 PM MST up reply actions  

Sorry.

I’m a language snob. /abashed

Blast and botheration.

by Silverblood on Feb 5, 2009 12:17 PM MST up reply actions  

It's okay,

I personally don’t mind the correction, but I’ll have you know that my ego gone guerrilla has activated a cell in London to take you down, so you better just be on the lookout for that.

by Rox Girl on Feb 5, 2009 12:23 PM MST up reply actions  

Hmm.

It’s a good thing I’m not in London. But maybe the snow will trip it up.

Blast and botheration.

by Silverblood on Feb 5, 2009 12:26 PM MST up reply actions  

I know.., it was the closest cell available...

Rox Girl’s ego network just isn’t that extensive, yet. I guess my ego could have called that stylist in Great Wyrley, but that’s as far away and taking you down with hair foils and blow dryers probably wouldn’t be as smooth an operation as the ego would like.

Although this brought up a question I’ve always wondered, does Oxford have snow days, or do they just make you suck it up?

by Rox Girl on Feb 5, 2009 12:38 PM MST up reply actions  

Seeing as I have to walk half an hour in the slush

to tute tomorrow, I can answer your question with: the latter.

Blast and botheration.

by Silverblood on Feb 5, 2009 12:41 PM MST up reply actions  

Smith/Murton

Over 1408 MiLB PAs, Smith put up a .318/.381/.532 line v RHP, and in 508 PA v LHP, .276/.360/.385.
In 620PA v RHP, Murton batted .305/.380/.434. In 278 PA v LHP, .346/.419/.537.

I’m with you on not getting ahead of ourselves on actual production, but the splits are pretty apparent one way or another.

Follow me on Twitter! http://www.twitter.com/rockiesmagicnum

by Andrew Martin on Feb 5, 2009 10:47 AM MST up reply actions  

beat me to it...

As you show, the minor league splits are there, the projections are there. In their small but not insignificant samples in the majors these two players have done nothing but affirm that their platoon masters and even their scouting reports will say this. There may not be a stone cold case, but given what we have it’s a lot easier to jump to the conclusion I have than it is to jump anywhere else.

by Rox Girl on Feb 5, 2009 11:01 AM MST up reply actions  

I never thought I'd say this,

But in this conversation, Stewart should be irrelevant. I’d like to see how you figure on him taking PT from either Smith or Murton would adversely affect the projected offense.

Since you’re bringing up sample sizes, I’m going to have to give a little more:

Smith in 1279 minor league AB’s vs RHP’s: .318/.382/.532 (.276/.360/.385 vs LHP’s)
Murton in 246 minor league AB’s vs LHP’s: .346/.419/.537

I realize that still might seem slight to you, but the projections say that these two players are a couple of the more extreme examples of pure platoon guys in the MLB right now. (Read what PECOTA said about Murton last season in this BP article under Cubs vs. Reds, for instance). If the Rockies were to go this route, they picked the right guy to do it with.

by Rox Girl on Feb 5, 2009 10:57 AM MST up reply actions  

I like the logic of this post.....

and believe the Murton trade was a no-brainer. My only concern is that Murton’s minor and major-league power disappeared last season. Only 2 homers in about 300 minor league ABs, and none with the Cubs/A’s. He also failed to hit .300 in either Iowa or Sacremento. What happened? Was he hurt? Or did he regress for some other reason that we could speculate on?

Assuming Murton will return to his peak-performance level with the Cubs (plus a Coors boost), this platoon idea for LF is the way to go. I’m still underwhelmed by the team’s paltry power and likely high LOB totals again this year, but RoxGirl is correct. The net change from replacing Holliday/Taveras with Smith/Murton/Spilly is negligible. We should possibly focus on our bench now.

by GoRoxGo on Feb 5, 2009 10:47 AM MST reply actions  

Where the power went

Same place as BJ Upton’s

I don’t know.

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by Andrew Martin on Feb 5, 2009 10:50 AM MST up reply actions  

It did sound

like he had a decent showing in Venezuela this winter. He posted .321/.463/.491 with 2 HR’s in 53 AB’s for Leones del Caracas. Maybe if he was dealing with some type of injury, he’s better now. Maybe.

I thought I read in one of the Murton articles yesterday that there was speculation that he was hiding an injury. Does anyone else remember that too? Have a link? I can’t find it…

by BlakeBomber on Feb 5, 2009 11:07 AM MST up reply actions  

Does anyone know where

Omar Quintanilla spends his off season?

The robber is described as about 25 years old, 5 feet 8 inches tall and weighing 160 pounds. He wore a green, hooded sweatshirt with “Colorado Rockies” and a mountain logo on the front.

by BlakeBomber on Feb 5, 2009 10:47 AM MST reply actions   2 recs

HAHAHA

"Winning doesn't really matter as long as you win." - Vinny Jones

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 5, 2009 10:51 AM MST up reply actions  

"How do they keep identifying me?!"

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by Andrew Martin on Feb 5, 2009 10:55 AM MST up reply actions  

I've always been a fan

of Matt Murton and thought he deserves to get regular playing time. I guess a platoon isn’t regular but it’s better than whatever he was doing lately with the Cubs/A’s…

by Resolution on Feb 5, 2009 11:26 AM MST reply actions  

I love the optimism...

BUT…I hardly think that Seth Smith and Matt Murton will equal Matt Holliday.

Also, are we still thinking that Stewart will be at 2nd? It seems that Hurdle made it pretty clear in the article by Patrick Saunders of the DP that he is going to be in left.

by Sandlotkid8 on Feb 5, 2009 11:47 AM MST reply actions  

It's not just Smith + Murton

= Holliday. It’s that, overall, our gains in the outfield (and our gains via losses (ie Taveras) ) can outpace our losses in the outfield, if they all perform how we expect them to perform.

by oo_nrb on Feb 5, 2009 11:50 AM MST up reply actions  

I agree 100% that we are upgraded in CF...

BUT…there are certain intangibles that go along with losing Holliday…like how many good pitches Hawpe and Atkins will miss because they can be pitched around…Smith and Murton will not be nearly as feared as Holliday.
Spilly in center will be an upgrade overall, but he, plus Murton and Smith, does not equal Holliday, even when you throw a horrible Taveras in the mix.

by Sandlotkid8 on Feb 5, 2009 11:52 AM MST up reply actions  

I agree there

We did lose the Holliday name and all that goes with that (potential ticket sales, pitcher’s intangibles, opposing manager’s lineup changes, etc).

by oo_nrb on Feb 5, 2009 11:56 AM MST up reply actions  

meh Atkins wasted them anyhow

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by Andrew Martin on Feb 5, 2009 12:10 PM MST up reply actions  

And to think I thought

I might be the only Rockies fan in the Bay Area. Glad to know I’m wrong. Maybe I can bail this dude out if/when he’s caught and get him to go to Giants/Rockies games with me.

by holly96 on Feb 5, 2009 12:21 PM MST reply actions  

or another perspective

smith went from decent #3/#4 lefty type in oakland who’s fringe stuff/flyball tendencies can get destroyed in coors
street who had injury issues, got expensive declined to the A’s 3rd best reliever
murton at best a platoon bat limited to LF who showed no power last season and was at least 6th/7th in the A’s OF depth chart

by Asfan4ever723 on Feb 5, 2009 1:55 PM MST reply actions  

so you're saying we suck?

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by Andrew Martin on Feb 5, 2009 2:01 PM MST up reply actions  

no i hope you beat the giants

but looking at the downside of a player also needs to be examined also

by Asfan4ever723 on Feb 5, 2009 2:11 PM MST up reply actions  

that and

Billy Beane always gets the better end of the trades he makes, right???

Aut Vincam Aut Periam

by PioneerSkies on Feb 5, 2009 2:20 PM MST up reply actions  

Yeah...but that Harden + Gaudin deal

doesn’t look as sweet right now….

"Winning doesn't really matter as long as you win." - Vinny Jones

by Andrew T. Fisher on Feb 5, 2009 2:24 PM MST up reply actions  

right

(i was being facetious)

Aut Vincam Aut Periam

by PioneerSkies on Feb 5, 2009 2:30 PM MST up reply actions  

both have injury issues at the moment

harden has a tear in his shoulder and is opting for rehab over surgery…anyone surprised?
harden will be the 2010 free agency version of ben sheets. teams hesitant to sign him long term.

gaudin who’s mentioned he’s out of options and might be stuck in a roster crunch w/ heilman, marshall, etc in that long relief/5th starter role

to be honest, i didnt like “throwing in” gaudin but A’s have alot of depth in that similar role with outman, gio, etc plus a deep bullpen and as talented harden is his injuries are like a broken record. i ’m holding out gallagher/donaldson will be solid and hopefully patterson is traded for a ss/3b type (maybe stl who has a ton of 3b prospects and a 2b need)

by Asfan4ever723 on Feb 5, 2009 3:13 PM MST up reply actions  

IMHO...

the Cactus League seems to be headed out of Tucson, which—sentiments about Hi Corbett Field notwithstanding—is fine by me. But, if the Rockies leave the Old Pueblo, I think it would be kind of dumb if they only went as far as Casa Grande. Why not keep going and find somewhere in Maricopa County? I don’t think much would change if they only moved as far as Casa Grande. The metro-Phoenix area teams already leave their serious rosters home when they have games in Tucson. I imagine they would still just send their scrubs to Casa Grande too.

Aut Vincam Aut Periam

by PioneerSkies on Feb 5, 2009 1:57 PM MST reply actions  

CG

is only about a 40 min drive from the southern outskirts of Phx, although it’s about 90 min from the Phx NW ’burbs.

"Of course, it’s downright frightening to imagine how two Adam Dunns would turn the double play." - Joe Posnanski

by DbacksSkins on Feb 9, 2009 10:34 AM MST up reply actions  

Nice segue, btw, Rox Girl.

"Of course, it’s downright frightening to imagine how two Adam Dunns would turn the double play." - Joe Posnanski

by DbacksSkins on Feb 9, 2009 12:33 PM MST up reply actions  

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