The Trade
looking somewhat suspect now. Three for one with two most likely headed to the minors. Once again the Rocks trade performance for "potential". Another in a long line of salary dumps by O'Dowd. Granted this may be more than they get from supplemental picks but right now it looks like another Rockies dump job. Why no starter was not obtained is beyond me. You think a runner up MVP, Batting champ, RBI champ, and three time all star could get more.
Eat. Drink. Be Merry. But the above FanPost does not necessarily reflect the attitudes, opinions, or views of Purple Row's staff (unless, of course, it's written by the staff [and even then, it still might not]).
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Do you think there was a better offer out there?
Or that O’Dowd just gets jobbed at the trading table?
My biggest complaint about the deal is the timing. I still think a later trade would have yielded a better return.
Later Trade
I’m not sure what the logic is behind having gotten a better return if the Rockies had waited longer into the off-season. The longer teams waited, the more valuable free agent prices dropped. Had Beane not acquired Holliday, I’m sure he would have preferred to sign Adam Dunn for 2 years/$10M rather than give up players that could be dealt individually at a later date for a greater return (likely in-season).
Plus, the trade can’t be full evaluated until a) Carlos Gonzales gets a 200-300 ABs in a Rockies uniform and b) Huston Street is traded. The return on Street (or Corpas, perhaps) will hopefully improve the Holliday package.
What makes you so sure Corpas or Street will be traded?
There hasn’t been any talk of that since early December.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 29, 2009 1:36 PM MDT up reply actions
Two Closers?
There hasn’t been much talk of trading Atkins either, but I don’t expect him to be with the team in 2010, or for the second half for that matter (regardless if the team is in contention).
I guess they both could last the season, especially given the penchant for demanding outrageous returns, but it’s nearly certain that both won’t be around after the season. Street will make $4.5M this season, and is arbitration eligible (assuming he’s successful, that will rise). Corpas is making $750K this year and $2.75M in 2010. I think it’s safe to say that one of them will not be around next year, as the Rockies can’t afford to spend $8.5M on two relievers. Given his health record, if Street has a successful, injury free first half, I’d guess he’d be the one to go because a) the team has groomed Corpas and b) Corpas has cost certainty and Street does not.
if street is demoted to setup
expect his value to lower…A’s tried to trade him last offseason, then the deadline with no takers. i still think he’s good, but the luster of him being a top 10 type closer has passed
by Asfan4ever723 on Mar 29, 2009 9:07 PM MDT up reply actions
Adam Dunn
is pretty much Billy Beane’s wet dream, I think…. I sorta figured they would be a darkhorse contender to sign him.
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by DbacksSkins on Mar 30, 2009 11:16 AM MDT up reply actions
Adam Dunn is a pleasure to watch
you just know he’ll work the count to at least 2-2
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by Andrew Martin on Mar 30, 2009 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions
and like home runs that break the sound barrier
Seriously the guy is harder than a brick outhouse.
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by Andrew Martin on Mar 30, 2009 1:48 PM MDT up reply actions
well it makes for a more entertaining watch
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by Andrew Martin on Mar 31, 2009 11:46 AM MDT up reply actions
At the time no.
but yes wait around and let some of the clubs get a package together. He was traded virtually right after the series. Outside of the Boras angle which is huge no less, I simply think a No 3 or 4 could have been obtained,
by PinchHitLancePainter on Mar 29, 2009 9:23 AM MDT reply actions
Totally agree
I’m not looking forward to the trading deadline on this one. Especially if Billy Bean spins him off to a contender for a boat load of talent.
I doubt it, starting pitching gets horded more the longer you get into the offseason.
Especially given the glut of second tier sluggers on the market this season. Teams felt that signing Bobby Abreu plus having their current three or four starter was better than getting Matt Holliday and losing their 3 or 4.
My take
has always been that a frontline (or potential frontline) pitcher was absolutely necessary in return. Thus, I was (and remain) quite disappointed in the deal. Now, if Gargon comes through eventually, I’ll obviously be fine. But from where I sit, it was a bad deal. No use crying over spilt milk…
And I keep saying this
But what front-line pitcher was available? It just doesn’t make any sense that we could acquire one.
1. Any team looking to acquire between 3 and 7 months of Matt Holliday is more than likely in a playoff hunt. No team in their right mind would give up a front line starter DURING a playoff hunt for part-time Matt Holliday.
2. If they WEREN’T in a playoff hunt, say, the Jays, they’re more than likely gearing up for next season, or on the verge of a complete rebuild. The Jays don’t NEED Holliday, they already have an outfield of Wells, Rios, and Snider. Sure, they might move Doc, but not for a rental of a major league slugger.
The fact is, there simply wasn’t a realistic way of acquiring a top-flight starter unless the package was like a 4-6 player swap involving multiple levels of players, and I think with Holliday’s attitude about leaving (Boras, BS, etc), we’d rather keep Fowler and Chacin than 3-6 months of Matt Holliday. Especially with draft picks no longer being a sure thing (see: Blue Jays, Toronto; Brewers, Milwaukee).
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by Andrew Martin on Mar 30, 2009 9:12 AM MDT up reply actions
That is why
I included a “potential” frontline guy. As in, a real prospect. Not a Smith level guy. Trades of this nature happen all the time. Just because you or others didn’t see a better deal on the day it was made does not make it a good deal by default.
The fact is, right now it looks like we got bludgeoned in this deal in terms of short-term returns. Now, if Huston Street turns into Mariano Rivera or Cargon becomes everything Raul Mondesi was supposed to be, it will be a winner. I’m fully aware that you cannot/should not evaluate trades involving prospects right away. So I allow for the possibility that it might end up being a good deal.
But it doesn’t look like one now.
What team was offering a starter better than Smith for a Scott Boras one year rental client?
Have you seen a deal made anytime in the last three seasons where a slugger nearing FA like Holliday was moved for something other than “potential”? Look around, starters only get dealt for a boatload of prospects by teams that feel that they can’t compete. Holliday was never going to get an SP back in return, it just wasn’t going to happen, so the only question is if the Rockies got enough potential for him, and I think it’s still way too early to say one way or the other on that.
I know you’re super eager to pull the trigger on the Holliday trade was a loser gun, but can’t you wait until at least a few actual games that matter have been played?
RG, how do you feel about dealing Matt in November?
If prospects are what we can expect, why not wait to see how the market shakes out? Or maybe it was just one way to deal with the over crowded outfield situation.
by pedalpusher on Mar 29, 2009 10:29 AM MDT up reply actions
I would have preferred we dealt him in July.
If he was a distraction then, as O’Dowd said, get rid of him then. I think the return would have been better because the trading team would have got Matt for a stretch run plus a season. Plus, the Rockies could have killed a few birds with one stone that way, too, as a likely result of trying to move Holliday at that point could have seen the team disrupt Boston’s attempts to trade Manny Ramirez.
HUH?
why would we trade Holliday to another team for their stretch run, when we should be fairly close to one ourselves? No one is running away with the NL West this year, and it won’t be decided in July. If we didn’t trade him in the off season…we couldn’t trade him DURING the season. That would mean we would be out of any playoff race in July.
We would be giving up an all-star slugging OF’er, when we would be conceivably very close to a playoff run ourselves. There is no way that would fly with the fans, or the team. It was either trade him in the off season, or keep him though to the end of this season.
President of the "Sign Pedro Martinez Angry Mob" (fan club didn't make sense)
By July, I was referring to July 2008
Not July 2009, I should have specified that as I completely agree with what you write here. We were out of any playoff race at that time, and we had just as little chance of extending him then as we did in November.
oh...ok
nevermind. The Rockies (or any other team) chance to extend Holliday became zero, the moment he signed with Boras.
The only problem I have with the Holliday trade, is the quality of the starting pitcher we got back in Smith. I’d rather have a guy a couple years away that had better stuff.
That and Holliday was my favorite Rox………
President of the "Sign Pedro Martinez Angry Mob" (fan club didn't make sense)
You won't really...
be able to compare what Beane would get if he flips Holliday to what the Rockies would receive. There are a lot of question marks about Holliday’s splits home and away. If he answers those with solid numbers in Oakland, the asking price will be higher and teams will pony up knowing that Holliday can perform away from Coors.
This is an excellent point
Coors batters will always be branded with Rocky Mountain High and despite the humidor and numbers going down across the board, it’s still LOL COORS CANAVERAL and stupid GMs seem to think it’s just a joke here.
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by Andrew Martin on Mar 30, 2009 9:14 AM MDT up reply actions
I think my issue with the trade.
Was that we dealt for a position that we were relatively set in. The center piece, Gonzalez, wasn’t exactly something we needed. And we didn’t necessarily need Street either. I don’t have a problem with the quality of the return, but I have a problem with the players. I would have preferred something like Anderson/Cahill and Street and a toss in outfield prospect.
Of course, I did see some flashes of talent out of Cargo this spring. He is a great defender, and has a potential bat. It just need to be brought out. Hopefully, Baylor can work a little magic with him.
O'Dowd may well have preferred Anderson/Cahill and Street + random OF prospect too.
I imagine he probably would have, but I also imagine that deal never gets put on the table from the A’s standpoint. It’s the same reason why we wouldn’t trade Jhoulys Chacin, Corpas and let’s say Charlie Blackmon (pretending he was eligible) to bring Holliday back right now, even if we were closer to a clear advantage in the division.
Gonzalez may have been a centerpiece
But he wasn’t a Beane type of player. He doesn’t walk. All his toolsy aspects are kind of negated for his lack of on-base ability. I think that he was an easy piece to move for Beane.
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by Andrew Martin on Mar 30, 2009 9:41 AM MDT up reply actions
I agree with those
that recommended an “in season deal”. I think the timing was poor and either last July or even this July would have been better. Historically you get more during the season.
My issue is that O’Dowd sold this deal last Nov as we are getting three guys who will be on our club. Well ugh……….
by PinchHitLancePainter on Mar 29, 2009 8:48 PM MDT reply actions
I think people will be surprised how little Oakland gets for Holliday outside his 2009 production at the plate...
My guess is they wind up swallowing him for the season and compensation picks. The three month rental hasn’t supplied squat for the selling team for two or three seasons now.
I think Smith and Street were expected to be on the club, but CarGo was billed as a someday replacement for Hawpe when the trade was made.
And throw in
that I’ve seen the A’s being picked to finish 2nd to the Angels in the West, they may not be out of any race by the end of July either.
President of the "Sign Pedro Martinez Angry Mob" (fan club didn't make sense)
o'dowd bought into the greg smith hype
he went for mlb ready over upside.
smith is jst a bad fit in coors for a fringe guy…solid in oakland or san diego
i said it at the time, rockies shouldve asked for vin mazzaro, james simmons, etc
I don't know if he bought into any hype, where are you getting that from?
What hype was there on Greg Smith? Everybody seemed to understand that the ERA was an unsustainable thing and he’s been panned up, down and sideways since the move. It was always my impression that Gonzalez and Street were what this trade would wind up being judged on, Smith’s just gravy if he produces anything.
Shamefully
since I don’t really follow the AL in season (other than for fantasy purposes) I had never heard of Smith. So I sure as hell hope he wasn’t the “centerpiece.”
he wasnt a centerpiece
but not a throw in either
i remember rockies insisting on smith or they wouldnt have done the deal…its in an article shortly following the trade
by Asfan4ever723 on Mar 29, 2009 9:39 PM MDT up reply actions
Sure the deal couldn't have been done without three pieces,
But “insisting on Smith” is a little disingenuous by whichever author wrote that article you refer to. Had the Rockies been able to get the A’s to offer Cahill instead, I’m certain they would have preferred that deal and possibly would have preferred Anderson over Smith also (I do suspect that O’Dowd might have preferred Smith to Anderson for the MLB ready thing).
I don't think O'Dowd would've honestly taken Smith over Cahill
and obviously not over Anderson
But Beane isn’t going to just give up the #7 prospect in baseball.
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by Andrew Martin on Mar 30, 2009 9:46 AM MDT up reply actions
well he had hype from the A's side
he wasnt really considered a main piece in the haren deal, maybe the 5th or 6th best player in it. limited experience in AAA known for his great pickoff move, calm demenor, make up/competitiveness…a guy who pitched above his abilities. comparisons to a beuhrle/moyer were thrown around.
he had a great 1st half, but then his hr prone/walk issues hurt him. it didnt help he got terrible run support either. so maybe he had rookie yr struggles thats fixable or wasnt as good as thought.
by Asfan4ever723 on Mar 29, 2009 9:35 PM MDT up reply actions
It's hard to say, and it will remain that way until his arm gets fixed...
Which means it may wind up being something we can never know for sure. I suppose the good thing about a finesse lefty getting his arm shot is that there isn’t that much velocity to lose in the first place. Still, Smith’s control issues may mean that he needed what little velo he had more than most.
lets do a quick breakdown
rockies decided to trade hollidy sooner rather than later since he probabl had no shot of resigning.
they got a solid 25 yr old closer with a very good track record
an mlb ready lefty to slot in the back of rotation
a 5 tool, upside OF…that could potentially pair with fowler for a dynamic OF duo
this also opened up a spot for 3 potentially solid OF’s to battle it out Smith/Spilborghs/Murton
o’ dowd surprisingly didnt get guys like cahill, anderson, mazzaro, simmons, doolittle, etc
Beane’s offense was horrible and he took a risk on a rental like holliday.
the emergence of devine/ziegler plus casilla and a boatload reliever prospects made street expendable.
gonzalez plate discipline concerned the A’s and OF’s like sweeney/cunningham/buck plus fringe guys like denorfia/davis gave them decent OF depth
trading the inning eating ability of smith hurts A’s in the short run, they thought gio/outman/cahill/anderson/mazzaro etc could be fast tracked and fill that bak rotation spot
so both gm’s had their reasons and depth at certain positions had an inflence on it
Point/Counterpoint
Rockies got:
-A talented, but injury prone, and possibly untradeable, reliever to fill a position that was already filled (Corpas)
- A left-handed pitcher (just because he has MLB experience does not mean he’s MLB-ready, or suitable for the back-end of the rotation)
- A dynamic outfielder with almost no ability to select pitches
A’s get:
- A great deal, but probably not as spectacular a player as fans think they’re getting, which is why the Rockies did not get a great deal in return
Essentially, the Rockies were in the same boat with relievers (Corpas and Buchholz being a talented duo, much like the A’s have), already had an abundance of OF prospects/average ML outfielders (Fowler, S. Smith, Spilborghs, etc), and Glendon Rusch is just an older version of Greg Smith. The A’s deal was still the best available, and O’Dowd did good to bring back quantity that has at least a decent chance of good returns.
Innings-eaters don’t really count for much when they are throwing up all over the mound. The Rockies have Jason Marquis to eat innings in the third spot, but if he pitches like he has this spring it won’t matter if he can soak up 300 innings. The same went for Smith in the second half, as well as this year. Unless Smith was Smith of the First Half of 2008, the A’s would be better off trotting out a different minor league starter every fifth time. Perhaps the A’s just recognized that capitalizing on his 2008 first half was the best they were going to do and were able to slide him in as an acceptable “MLB ready” starter in order to hang onto better, less advanced prospects (well, obviously this is what they did).
CarGo has more HR this spring than Holliday...
and their Slugging Pct is close:
Holliday .380
CarGo .366
"Never fall in or out of love too early in the Spring." ~ Tony La Russa
SPRING TRAINING
And those SLG%s are both awful
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by Andrew Martin on Mar 30, 2009 9:51 AM MDT up reply actions
My
starting LF!!
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by DbacksSkins on Mar 30, 2009 11:17 AM MDT up reply actions
Yay!
Coincidentally, I have Chris Young in my lineup and Justin Upton on my bench….not that I tried for that at all…
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 30, 2009 4:59 PM MDT up reply actions
I have Brandon Webb as a starter
He slipped down to me much later than I thought he would be available. I think it might help that I’m playing with all Eastern Time Zone people.
I'm not sure how good Webby is for fantasy,
simply for the fact that he’s not really a big strikeout guy.
Insert witty and/or humorous signature here.
I think that's probably why he was available when I picked him up,
But he’s been top twenty in the MLB in K’s each of the last couple of seasons, add in his wins and ERA, and he was clearly the best available starting pitcher at the time, and since I had none at that point in the draft, I grabbed him. I think I picked up more K’s with my next two picks, anyway, Ervin Santana and King Felix.
That way
when CY destroys your pitching, you’ve still got some consolation.
Hmmm… I should have gotten Hawpe.
Insert witty and/or humorous signature here.
Upton was the guy that ravaged us in April
but the point still stands. Maybe I’ll swipe up this year’s McLouth, Quentin or Hamilton to replace them :-p
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Mar 30, 2009 5:59 PM MDT up reply actions
I realize its ST...
and I thought the argument was rediculous, which is why a I responded with my own rediculousness.
"Never fall in or out of love too early in the Spring." ~ Tony La Russa

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