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Sunday Rockpile: Pitch in or hitch out

The Rockies were 6-6 at Coors Field last season in third game rubber matches despite being five games better than .500 overall at home. Letting a few winnable series get away from them on getaway day proved costly, and was just one of the many reasons the team failed to live up to expectations in 2008. Today will be the Rockies first 2009 test in this department, as they face a beatable opposing pitcher with their own staff leader on the mound.

Last night's defeat was one of sound mind over shaky mind according to Patrick Saunders, and watching the differences in composure between Brett Myers and Jorge De La Rosa, it's hard to argue with him.

The front office vows to keep honest, open dialogue with the players and coaches this season, which I imagine can be tough when some players like JDLR seem to crack under adversity.

Tracy Ringolsby is seeing the same thing that many of us are after Jason Hammel's debut with the team last night: he's not ready to take the fifth starter role from Franklin Morales. This presents a Matt Belisle roster quandary, as the Rockies will almost certainly have to designate him for assignment come April 21st if they want Morales back on the 25 man roster. I believe Hammel's a better long term answer than Belisle for a long relief/swing starter role, but unless Jason learns how to attack left handers quickly, he might be the inferior short term solution. So do you just take a hit when long right handed relief is called for? If it means an upgrade to your rotation and therefore presumably less need of long relievers in general, than yes, do it.

It's going to hurt to wind up losing three pitchers to get through all of this, but I think only one of them (Aneury Rodriguez) was going to be of significant value to the Rockies in the long run, and that wasn't going to be for another few seasons. Assuming that the team does decide to recall Morales, the 25 man roster after April 21, should be better than what it was before we started this juggling, and if we're playing to win this season, that's the most important consideration

Woody Paige missed seeing Dex in the lineup last night. I sometimes get the impression that he's actually starting to like this team.

More Post notes indicate we could see more if Ian Stewart today. Spilly's attendance of the Springsteen concert seemed to cool off his bat faster than Tulopalooza did. Let's hope it heats up again just as fast.

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Programming note:

theoldgrizzlybear’s in transit back to his SLC home from Denver and will be in later today with the Pebble Report. If you guys are really eager to talk about last night’s minors performances (18 groundouts for Parker Frazier? wow.) feel free to do it here.

by Rox Girl on Apr 12, 2009 7:17 AM MDT reply actions  

This might be a dumb question

but why did they only play 7 innings?

by moomacher on Apr 12, 2009 8:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

They played

a double header yesterday, which go seven innings each.

"If we never try, we shall never succeed." - Abraham Lincoln

Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!

by Russ Oates on Apr 12, 2009 8:19 AM MDT up reply actions  

This might have been discussed in the game thread

but did anyone else say “crap, now De la Rosa’s gonna screw up” as soon as they saw Jimmy Rollins randomly point to him in the third inning?

by Resolution on Apr 12, 2009 8:02 AM MDT reply actions  

Yes.

JLDR’s so easy to psych out, he can even do it to himself.

Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave

by Mondogarage on Apr 12, 2009 10:47 AM MDT up reply actions  

Ian in Left last night was a disaster. After that first hit, I held my breath each time the ball went his way.

by SpiritOf95 on Apr 12, 2009 8:40 AM MDT reply actions  

Ian shouldn't be in left

he should be at 2B and when Atkins gets traded he should move to 3B, but they need his bat in the lineup as often as possible.

And why oh why are they in love w/ getting Torrealba so many days behind the plate. I understand Iannetta hasn’t started well, but he’s not going to get out of it by sitting.

It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.

by smokinRox on Apr 12, 2009 9:18 AM MDT up reply actions  

My hypothesis

We have two Latin starting pitchers with a history of composure problems and a Latin catcher with a reputation for calming the nerves of such hurlers. Iannetta’s slow start (hitless sans his magnificent Opening Day bomb) might add to it as well. I don’t see Hurdle following strictly to the Yorvit-DLR and Yorvit-Morales matchings, but I have no doubt that was a part of the decision.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Apr 12, 2009 9:36 AM MDT up reply actions  

There does seem to be

some truth to Hurdle’s matching of the Spanish battery mates, although I’m not sure it’s a key to success. It definitely wasn’t working last night and I don’t remember it ever working better last year than the Spanish / English battery alternative.

That aside, Yorvit was going to catch one game and I’d rather have CDI catching Cook, today. Also, if CDI can get the bat going we should see him catch most of this week’s games due to the off days on the schedule.

by 4thturn on Apr 12, 2009 10:44 AM MDT up reply actions  

There hasn’t been significant evidence to point either way, really. Of Yorvit’s starts, DLR was shaky and Morales was solid. For CDI, Cook was shaky while Marquis and Ubaldo were solid. I agree the Spanish connection might be a bit overrated, but any bit helps. I agree with your second paragraph completely. Interesting to note: Rockie pitchers had a lower ERA with Dreamy catching than Yorvit last year…by over 0.50

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Apr 12, 2009 10:51 AM MDT up reply actions  

I could catch Ubaldo this year

and “be solid”

"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009

by Redhawk on Apr 12, 2009 10:52 AM MDT up reply actions  

Oh I'm not giving credit to CDI for Ubaldo's start

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Apr 12, 2009 11:02 AM MDT up reply actions  

answers

1) Stewart is not a LF….it’s why he looked so bad. After the first one you could see he was scared and a uncomfortable out there. It’s different being in the big league stadium and spring training for the old nerves. Today I expect Stewart to be at 3rd with Helton getting a breather (and Atty at 1st)
2) I have no idea why everyone is in a rush to show Atkins the door. He’s a life time .290 hitter, and currently in his prime years. If it’s because he’s blocking Stewart…well I personally think that Stewart should see more time at 2nd.
3) Torrealba is a quality BACK-UP. And back ups tend to play one – two games a week. Being a starting catcher is a harder grind than any other position. If you like Iannetta…why do you want to break him down and shorten his career under too much work? What you are seeing is a normal split of work.

"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009

by Redhawk on Apr 12, 2009 9:41 AM MDT up reply actions  

I want to keep Atkins for awhile too..

Frankly, I like our team with the kind of potency it has on the bench right now, I really don’t think it’s hurting Stewart’s development, he’ll get his starting opportunity soon enough, and as long as all these players keep their egos in check, the team can do great things this year. That means no moaning from Barmes when Stewart starts at second or Atkins when he starts at third, no complaints from Smith when Dex is in center and Spilly in right. As fans we need to understand that sometimes our faves will have to sit to keep everybody happy too.

by Rox Girl on Apr 12, 2009 10:04 AM MDT up reply actions  

Torrealba is a quality back up

but he is just that a backup and I think as such should only play once a week. I know the game has changed and catchers are being coddled along, but I don’t see the Dodgers doing that w/ Martin. Martin is clearly a very good hitting catcher which are not easy to come by, although coming by w/ a little more frequency in the last few years, and I think Iannetta is a guy that can be a difference maker at that position. I don’t think sitting him so frequently will help him get in sync. I do agree that we have a quality bench and some guys will need to sacrifice time for the good of the team, but it is a very thin line and a dangerous game to be moving guys in and out of the lineup all the time, and could keep them from getting out of a funk or staying on a roll.

It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.

by smokinRox on Apr 12, 2009 12:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

Martin's also clearly failed to be more than an average hitting catcher for the Dodgers himself late in the season

Because of overuse early in the year. I don’t know if it’s coddling Iannetta so much as prolonging the value we get out of him. I’d rather lose a little production by having Torrealba a couple of games a week now than a lot of production by having a tired and ineffective version of Iannetta for five plus Torrealba for one later.

by Rox Girl on Apr 12, 2009 12:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yorvit speaks Spanish. Iannetta speaks the universal language, i.e. Math.

by Prospector on Apr 12, 2009 9:41 AM MDT up reply actions  

It was fun to be back at the ballpark

but the team, particularly the pitching, just couldn’t deliver. You could almost see the third inning result coming after Atkins made a great diving play but couldn’t finish it on the throw. Let’s hope Cookie can go out this afternoon and win the series.

On a somewhat interesting note from the game, you may remember an incident in the second inning where a foul ball was thrown back onto the field. I was about ten rows from the guy who did it – he was a Phillies fan. After the inning he was ejected from the game and likely arrested, to the delight of my whole section.

by avsfan4ever33 on Apr 12, 2009 9:26 AM MDT reply actions  

wait,

a guy got ejected for throwing a foul ball back onto the field?

by Resolution on Apr 12, 2009 10:40 AM MDT up reply actions  

That is a ruele at Coors Field

I can almost recite that pre-game speech Alan Roach does to announce that before each game.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Apr 12, 2009 10:41 AM MDT up reply actions  

Logic is a thrown ball can hurt. Miss the field..and hit a fan lower, or hit a player..and that’s bad. But it’s just not balls..it’s anything

And it’s been a rule to not “Please refrain from throwing items on the field as you will be ejected” in most every stadium, since for-ever. Even Wrigley

"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009

by Redhawk on Apr 12, 2009 10:48 AM MDT up reply actions  

Does that apply to

home run balls hit by the visiting team?

Granted, throwing a foul ball back onto the field is just completely corny, but ejection seems severe, although if it’s stated before every game I don’t blame them for removing the person…

by Resolution on Apr 12, 2009 10:50 AM MDT up reply actions  

yep

"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009

by Redhawk on Apr 12, 2009 10:50 AM MDT up reply actions  

still think it's lame

but at least it’s better than getting ejected because you were trash talking to Bobby Abreu and you hurt his feelings or something, which I saw one time at a Yankee game. Those guys must have paid real good money for the seats too…

by Resolution on Apr 12, 2009 10:53 AM MDT up reply actions  

Actually

you can get thrown out for cussing…doing it too loudly and bothering the fans especially with kids. Usually get a warning to settle down first.

And it’s HARD to heckle with out cussing (well maybe that’s me)

"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009

by Redhawk on Apr 12, 2009 11:00 AM MDT up reply actions  

That makes sense

I wasn’t exactly paying attention to what the guys were saying, but what I do know is that the ejection wasn’t prompted by fans. In between innings, Abreu’s head popped up from behind the dugout along with some security person and he pointed to the guys. A few minutes later they were escorted out – as far as I know, there was no warning either…

by Resolution on Apr 12, 2009 1:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

Foul balls

I think it makes complete sense for foul balls. A foul ball is going to happen in the middle of an at bat. If a fan throws back a foul ball, it could end up on the field (even the infield) during an at bat.

by holly96 on Apr 12, 2009 11:47 AM MDT up reply actions  

yea,

home runs impact the game, foul balls that are out of play are just completely inconsequential, which is why it’s super corny to throw one back in the first place…

by Resolution on Apr 12, 2009 1:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

Some points

I’ve seen a lot of negative comments the last couple of days. And while I’m not the glass 1/2 full…in fact I was almost ran out of here last year for being too negative, I think I really need to point out some things the might have been over looked.

Did Jorge look like Johann Santana yesterday? Hell no…..He’s our #4 starter. What do you all think #4 starters look like? They are usually crafty old vets with not much stuff but good location, or they are young guys with filthy stuff and either not much “pitching” and more “throwing”. JDLR is the later…well, not so young any more, as he’s closing in on baseball middle age. Jorge’s fastball at time was flat unhittable. It’s the best fastball on this team of any guy not named Uballo. But…he tends to over throw…that either leaves it wild or flat.

Now…show me a #4 in the league you’d rather have…oh, and keep the price tag down around 3 million a year.

Hammel: This is a different story. That was a mail order bride and groom getting to know each other. Lots of jitters, and Coors Field is a much different place to pitch than the dome in St. Pete and takes many pitchers a few days to get use to. What I saw….filthy slider, that he has a hard time locating. He tends to over throw the slider, leaving it flat too. But that’s his out pitch (at least he has one!) Average fastball, below average change. Looked uncomfortable out of the stretch. My issue is he pitches high in the zone..due to his height. He doesn’t use his size to get downward movement/plane. And that leads to fly balls….and fly balls in Coors is bad. umkay?

There is a reason…this guy was odd man out for the Rays. He really needs a good pitching coach (and with Apodaca as his coach..he still does). But that slider was enough to build on…but don’t expect him to be Gagne on roids out there, he’s a long righty reliever…and if our starters can do their job, Hammel is the guy we might not see much of. (not a slam on the kid…but when starters are on…long relievers tend to sit…a lot..and that’s a good thing)

Lastly…seriously folks…did you think we were going 161-1? now… 160-2 starts today

"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009

by Redhawk on Apr 12, 2009 10:01 AM MDT reply actions  

Thank you for saying this so I don't have to.

Really. The other team had our number last night. Not much reason to start pointing fingers yet. This is still a very solid team, all told.

by Rox Girl on Apr 12, 2009 10:05 AM MDT up reply actions  

We Still Don't Have Matt Holliday...we are doomed!

"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009

by Redhawk on Apr 12, 2009 10:19 AM MDT up reply actions  

If we keep winning two of three

we’ll be in great shape. No need to sweep everyone, just keep stringing together series wins.

I love Greg Reynolds and I may be slightly ashamed to admit it.

by Silverblood on Apr 12, 2009 10:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

If last year

we were the “negative ninnies” Does that make us the “Positive Ninnies” this year?

"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009

by Redhawk on Apr 12, 2009 10:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

Positive Putzers?

I love Greg Reynolds and I may be slightly ashamed to admit it.

by Silverblood on Apr 12, 2009 10:49 AM MDT up reply actions  

It was a different JJ that played for the Rockies

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Apr 12, 2009 10:52 AM MDT up reply actions  

The Positive Pontificators?

too long…not sure that’s a word either

Positive Ponies?

"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009

by Redhawk on Apr 12, 2009 11:07 AM MDT up reply actions  

Remembering

childhood dreams?

"If we never try, we shall never succeed." - Abraham Lincoln

Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!

by Russ Oates on Apr 12, 2009 11:31 AM MDT up reply actions  

I agree on Hammel, but

I was thinking he needs “tweaking”, and the Rockies traded for him believing Apodaca could get him straightened out.

That being said, why did they make the trade at all. Why do the Rockies feel the need to trade a SP with years of controllability, for a LongRP/SpotSP that has NO controllability? If Hammels can’t be fixed, and quickly, they will have to make a decision that likely would result in trying to sneak Hammels through waivers. They might as well have given up Aneury for nothing. Not a “successful franchise” move IMO.

by rockieprogress on Apr 12, 2009 10:50 AM MDT up reply actions  

I actually agree with this

it’s hard to make those tweaks in the bright lights of a major league stadium. It really needs to be done in the minors….or on a really bad team…not one that is playoff caliber like the Rockies are. BUT when he released his slider nice and easy…it really danced. It was the kinda pitch that will give a guy a lot of chances.

The MAIN problem I have is it jams up our bullpen. He can’t be sent down or he’s lost, and I really think the Rockies need some flexibility out there, ala Speier the last couple of years.

I have no problem trading a guy 2 years away for a guy right now. Rodriquez wasn’t exactly looking like the next Ubaldo. He was looking like back of the rotation/long relief guy himself. And the Rockies have A TON of those guys already, and can find more on any give scrap heap. The value he had…was no one really knows…he could improve to be better than that that.

"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009

by Redhawk on Apr 12, 2009 10:59 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think I agree

I think you have different tiers of cheap imported talent:

1) Rule 5 players – almost always the domain of also-rans. Clubs acquiring them are hoping for an upgrade two or three seasons down the road.

2) NRI’s/minor league free agents – depth in case of injury, sometimes comes with a lottery ticket upside.

3) Waiver wire claims. Like Juan Morillo, the only reason why they would be more valuable than the previous tier is because they fill some team’s specific need.

4) trades in advance of or during a DFA – slightly higher than tier three, these players have enough value that they fill multiple teams’ needs.

5) trades to allow higher quality young players a starting role – This would be the kind of move we’d be talking about were the Rockies to trade Atkins to give a space for Stewart or one of our outfielders for Fowler. These types of trades are what only contenders will pursue because they cost so much in prospects.

I think Hammel fits in tier 4, Rodriguez as a prospect is basically in tier 1 and I don’t know if Tampa will be able to protect him from the next Rule 5 draft. Players from all these tiers are capable of becoming quality contributors or busts, but the further down the list you get, the more likely they are to contribute soon.

The thing is though, if the consensus in baseball seems to be that Belisle’s tier 2, Morillo tier 3 and Hammel tier 4, we’ve ultimately wound up with the guy most feel will add to our team’s success this season. Talking about years of controllability becomes somewhat moot because this is clearly a “win now” type of move. What we have to talk about is whether it was the right time to make this sort of call. I think that given the way our team’s looking, it’s hard to fault O’Dowd for it. In retrospect, maybe that changes.

by Rox Girl on Apr 12, 2009 11:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

All good points

my big worry…is what if Hammel turns out to not be playoff caliber pitcher. Not major league…but playoff. A playoff team can’t afford to lose games they could have won with a better pitcher, while he’s doing his OJT (On the Job Training).

Most of this is just plain unfamiliar with Hammel. I know what I’m getting with Belisle and Rusch as they’ve been around long enough

"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009

by Redhawk on Apr 12, 2009 11:59 AM MDT up reply actions  

I don't think anyone here expected the Rox to win 'em all

but I would hope we are allowed to question a move made by the FO. I actually may be one of the few that really like O’Dowd and in fact think he should stay. He has done a great job rebuilding the farm and grooming some quality talent. I don’t like the move w/ Hammel and didn’t like it before I saw him pitch to be honest. I was higher than most on Rodriguez and disagree that his ceiling is back of the rotation starter or long relief. As far as Hammel goes, I have a problem that we gave up more than I would have liked to get him on the roster and the way it seems now he may have to be our #5 or risk losing him to someone else, which the makes the trade worthless. I would rather see Morales personally and think he deserved a shot.

I didn’t see anything in his pitches to inspire confidence, nerves may have played a role in that, so fine. I am not negative about this team at all, I would like to see Iannetta and Stewie more, but I really like this team and I carried a quiet confidence about them this year. I made a few negative comments, mostly to protect myself just in case they don’t come through. But, I honestly felt good about these guys, esepcially in what I was seeing as ST went along. I like this team even more 5 games into the season. I am not even close to giving up on this team after 1 game.

It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.

by smokinRox on Apr 12, 2009 12:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

Are we going to get in a game today?

I’m in Parker, and it’s rained steady all morning. Was thinking of going to the game, but I don’t want do sit in the cold (41 F!) and certainly not in the rain and cold.

But the radar shows the rain to not be north..and looks to be cut off near down town. And if it’s dry and cold….I’m really “jonesing” for some live baseball, and tornadoughs

"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009

by Redhawk on Apr 12, 2009 11:15 AM MDT reply actions  

I'm with you

I’ve got tickets to the game today and as much as I’m looking forward to live baseball (and Tornadoughs), I almost want to see the game postponed so I don’t have to sit in the cold.

The 2009 Colorado Rockies: Expect the Unexpected

by free7694 on Apr 12, 2009 11:22 AM MDT up reply actions  

Boo

I would take your ticket and sit in the cold if I didn’t have so much work to do today

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Apr 12, 2009 11:33 AM MDT up reply actions  

Oh I'm still going

I just wish it was warmer

The 2009 Colorado Rockies: Expect the Unexpected

by free7694 on Apr 12, 2009 11:36 AM MDT up reply actions  

I'm not

I didn’t have tickets….and there are 78 more home games left after this one….

And I can’t get sick this week…and I would in cold rainy weather

"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009

by Redhawk on Apr 12, 2009 11:55 AM MDT up reply actions  

Looks dry in LoDo

Coors Field Cam from Fox

The great thing about baseball is that there's a crisis every day. ~Gabe Paul

by rockhead on Apr 12, 2009 12:20 PM MDT up reply actions  

Doesn't Chan Ho Park

tend to have our number for whatever reason? At least that’s what I remember from recent experience. He has an ugly ERA but always manages to shut our guys down. Then again, that’s been our usual modus operandi with bad pitchers. Hopefully it changes. And also hopefully Cook looks more like Cook.

I love Greg Reynolds and I may be slightly ashamed to admit it.

by Silverblood on Apr 12, 2009 11:32 AM MDT reply actions  

He is 10-6 with a 4.64 ERA vs Colorado in his career

Decent, but not great. Though he was by far the Phillies best starter this spring….

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Apr 12, 2009 11:34 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think she is remember a game

either last year or 07 when Park came in was a fill in start…and just shut the Rockies down. It was like his only well pitched game he had all year.

"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009

by Redhawk on Apr 12, 2009 12:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

1-0 in 8 relief appearances in 2008 with 0.55 ERA in 2008, no starts

This will be his first start vs the Rockies in nearly three years: his last one was April 19, 2006 with San Diego, which he won. So it wasn’t a spot start, but he did do well in relief last year

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Apr 12, 2009 1:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

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