Thursday Rockpile: The good kind of sinking feeling.
by Rox Girl on Apr 16, 2009 9:08 AM MDT
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PrintNo I'm not talking about the one that Rockies fans are getting concerning Huston Street, or the one that D-backs and Giants fans should be feeling right about now with regard to their 2009 season, but insteand the one that the baseball itself feels when leaving the hand of Aaron Cook, Jason Marquis, or Ubaldo Jimenez. Add Jhoulys Chacin to that mix later this year and the Rockies have a nifty bunch of worm killers. Dave Cameron, writing for the Wall Street Journal, takes a look at Jimenez and other young pitchers in an article praising the virtues of the groundball.
Let's go back to that Street thing right now, as to me there definitely appears to be something going awry there. If we're talking about GB rates, we can start by pointing out that he has the lowest among Rockies pitchers currently with the team(Franklin Morales' somewhat flukish start in Arizona has him lower overall). A closer examination shows that unlike a couple of the other Rockies pitchers with currently low GB rates, such as Jorge De La Rosa or Morales, the flyballs that Street is allowing are immensely damaging, with zero pop outs to the infield and over a quarter of his flies have been leaving the ballpark. Opponents are swinging at a higher percentage of his pitches than any other Rockies pitcher, and rather than a sign of great command, I think it's a sign that his pitches are looking fat and flat. There's seemingly no or very little deception going on, and that's troubling.
Tracy Ringolsby looks at the switch Hurdle made from Street to Grilli yesterday as a sign that he's learned from mistakes of past seasons. Hurdle does seem to be managing as though he has a lot on the line this season, all his years of losing will have hopefully taught him something about how to avoid it.
All of the media seems to be on board with Franklin Morales getting the start next Tuesday against the Diamondbacks, although no official word has come down from Rockies coaches or the front office. Perhaps the only drawback would be that the D-backs should have lots of tape to look at to prepare for him, since yesterday's start was against their AAA affiliate in Reno, and his one MLB start this season was at Chase Field.
I think Saturday might be the most important game of April for the Rockies, as they will be facing Chad Billingsley for the first time. While TrueBlueLA's Brendan Scolari points out that Billingsley doesn't seem to be suffering from any sort of Verducci effect thus far, the fatigue devil still lurks and it's imperative that the Rockies push him like they pushed Rich Harden yesterday. More 14 pitch AB's, more walks, more shaking off and getting back in to do it again after a called third strike, all of that will only help the Rockies now and in September. Dodgers pitchers did get flustered by the only other patient team they've faced this season in San Diego, this series will be an excellent opportunity for the Rockies to make a similar statement.
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Are all those Street numbers based on this season thus far?
Because if so, Shame shame shame shame!
If not just ignore the above comment
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Yeah they are, so sue me
but you try waiting for a sufficient sample from relief pitchers and you will shoot yourself in the foot. It just isn’t going to happen in time. I’m not trying to use them to say that Street’s a bad pitcher or will be a bad pitcher this season, I’m just saying that there are multiple warning flags going up here.
The problem isn’t just that Street’s showing troubling signs in one particular area, he’s showing them in all of them. Is he throwing strikes? Not as many as he should be. Is he missing bats? Hardly. Is the contact he creates just finding holes or is it the kind that generally causes pain? Pain, great pain. Are his pitches showing the kind of movement or velocity that would make him a desirable pitcher for other teams? That would be no.
oh I'm not saying RPs are the best for good samples
But taking a bad sample of a bad sample does not make a good sample, as you’re well aware.
Yeah, street looks like crap. He looked good in ST.
It’s the 2nd week of baseball. Give him one or two more short leash appearances.
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by Andrew Martin on Apr 16, 2009 9:49 AM MDT up reply actions
I respectfully disagree
a closer affects the outcome of close games. Games that can go either way. If the old saying is 1/3 of games are losses, and 1/3 are wins, and the season is really about the middle 1/3, there is no reason to give many more of these away just to get a bigger sample.
Street can get on track or prove him self in the 6th or 7th as well as he can in the 9th with the game on the line.
Personally I believe Street is hurt. He looks like he has shoulder or elbow tightness to me. (and that observation plus .50c won’t get you a cup of coffee at 7-11). With Morales coming back the Rockies will need a roster spot….a DL stint for Street would give him minor league rehab games to work out what ever is going on…..either in his arm, his mechanics…or in his head.
"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009
A closer sure does affect the outcome of close games
as does the setup man, the 7th inning guy, the starting pitcher…..
I don’t know, Helton hasn’t come on strong, do we put him in the 6 hole now? Iannetta’s coming up flat, do we bench him and start Yorvy?
I know they’re not entirely comparable situations, but Street does have a history of being awesome.
If he is hurt, definitely DL him though, I’m not for a second suggesting he pitch at anything less than 100%.
I’m also not terribly comfortable with Corpas “closing” either.
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by Andrew Martin on Apr 16, 2009 10:04 AM MDT up reply actions
each game for a batter is a smaller percentage of their overall season, than each appearance is for a pitcher….so the leash is longer for a position player. Also position players are less inter-changeable than bull pen arms are. A pitcher is a pitcher…but a 3rd baseman isn’t always a RF (yes Hurdle I mean Stewart!)
Street can come in the 7th of game and give up a couple of runs..and yes that’s bad, but not devastating like in the 9th when the team has little or no time to come back from the runs. Less high leverage as Hurdle likes to say. I have a feeling Street sees the DL next week….wither he’s really hurt or not.
Corpas hasn’t wowed me either yet. He’s certainly not “on” yet. Jason Grilli closer? never thought I’d hear that as a possibility. I think the Rockies just walked into closer by committee. I realize you advocate that. But I don’t like it one bit. Baseball is mental…and having roles nailed down is important.
"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009
eh, it's 90% mental
but the other half is physical.
If Street can do it in the 7th, he should be able to do it in the 9th, too.
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by Andrew Martin on Apr 16, 2009 11:15 AM MDT up reply actions
My wife
initially called Street her “new favorite” replacing Holliday, until after watching his Philly performance, and asking “you traded Holliday for this guy? No wonder your team sucks.”
Street needs to get it together in his next start, or I’ll be on board with Redhawk. No more of this “letting guys work it out.” That’s what ST is for. April is for winning.
Hurdle on the hot seat is the best thing that could happen. He no longer has the leeway to be a player’s coach and let guys do their thing. He has to be results-oriented now.
We didn't trade Holliday for street
Gonzalez has a much higher relative ceiling than Street, I think
Anyhow I hope you educated her.
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by Andrew Martin on Apr 16, 2009 2:39 PM MDT up reply actions
She wasn't being that specific about it
though its fair to say I didn’t have a comeback at that particular time so I just went Vin Scully on her and told her the story about Street’s dad being a Texas football hero.
oh and i found this
….
what?
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That's just wrong....so very, very wrong
Where’s that ban button?
"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009
I didn't do it!!
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by DbacksSkins on Apr 16, 2009 11:11 AM MDT up reply actions
Strange that Cook wasn't featured in that WSJ article
my quick read shows that he had a high GB% than Ubaldo last year
they're talking more about young pitchers
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by Andrew Martin on Apr 16, 2009 9:24 AM MDT up reply actions
Actually Baseball Today mentioned Cookie as a groundballer
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by Andrew Martin on Apr 16, 2009 9:25 AM MDT up reply actions
Interesting reading the Tracy Ringolsby article
That Tracy is saying that Hurdle might already be switching Street’s and Corpas’ roles. It’s about halfway down, when he mentions that Hurdle’s going to readdress the closer role Friday. Who knows maybe Hurdle is reading the PR. I guess we’ll know when Stewie and Fowler are in the starting lineup daily that he is.
by Chacinisthefuture on Apr 16, 2009 9:36 AM MDT reply actions
The Denver Post
said basically the same thing. The crazy thing is, if Hurdle were to go with this most effective pitcher so far this year as closer….it would be the former “gas can” Jason Grilli! Put that in your rowbot collective pipes and smoke it!
Key stat for Street: batters are 7-15 off of him this year. That’s not good. In fact I think he is actually hurt. I’m hoping that’s the reason. The shaking of his arm in yesterday’s game is a sign of SOMETHING (injury, not loose, or not loose cause of injury)
So when Morales is activated next week, I’m thinking we will see Street go on the DL. (wither he’s hurt or not)
"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009
I dunno
I’d shake my arm if I was frustrated with it! But like everyone I hope there is a solid medical reason for his poor performance so far (and despite my little rant about sample size on the other thread the closer role is different, primarily because the closer himself lives or dies by the stats he puts up, small sample size or whatever).
They can't put Street on the DL if he isn't hurt.
A sanctioned MLB doctor has to “give permission” for a player to be placed on the DL.
by Greg Stanwood on Apr 16, 2009 11:12 AM MDT up reply actions
yeah.............
That rule might be as ignored as not taking amphetamines is
"Suck it monkeys, the Rockies will win this year", Rox Girl 1-11-2009
I wonder if they can get shrinks to diagnose things
or like therapists or NPs
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by Andrew Martin on Apr 16, 2009 11:19 AM MDT up reply actions
I mean
don’t they just have to tell Street to tell the doctor “it hurts when I do this”? No matter what the MRI says if he says his arm hurts he is hurt. Right?
by cocainelips99 on Apr 16, 2009 11:46 AM MDT up reply actions
yeah
A friend of mine has a brother in MLB. In the late 1990s at one point, he was DL’ed with no injury, to create a roster spot. Not sure if it still occurs, but it did back then.
Reviews of some great baseball sites and other cool stuff on my blog @ The Casual Observer
erg
that was sposta be a reply to marauder.
Reviews of some great baseball sites and other cool stuff on my blog @ The Casual Observer
What's driving me nuts the most right now is
the fact that we have 2 off days in 3 days, seriously I think I’m going to start seeing green monkeys pretty soon if they don’t quit making early season baseball schedules look like the NBA, only occasional back-to-backs.
by Chacinisthefuture on Apr 16, 2009 11:54 AM MDT reply actions
That too...
And then I’m treated to Yankees and Mets in the evening. Lovely. (Though I think the TV would implode if it accidentally showed the Rockies…it is NYC, after all).
I'd rather watch the Yankees
than nothing at all, and with all their crazy acquisitions, there’s a good amount of stuff to actually look for. The Mets, I dunno, Ron Darling tends to irritate me a lot…
Oh and the Rockies aren’t shown in NYC because most of NYC thinks they’re a AAA team.
I'd dare to say
that most of NYC would be unable to tell if Colorado is a state or city
by Chacinisthefuture on Apr 16, 2009 1:14 PM MDT up reply actions
Sad but true
And don’t even ask them where Montana is, they are liable to say Canada.
by Chacinisthefuture on Apr 16, 2009 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions
Oh, I wouldn't call it sad.
That’s my new favorite American whiskey. (Even though that might be a heresy coming from an Arizonan)
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But that's only because
Most New Yorkers are ignorant jackholes who think everyone outside of NYC has as high opinion of them as they do of themselves.
How else do you explain people seriously considering the Mets a threat to win this year?
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
They're a threat
to dominate the regular season until September?
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Nope
As to DBS’ post, maybe.
I don’t even see the Mets finishing 2nd in their division.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
Only if you're "most" New Yorkers
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
So have we played the fewest games so far in baseball?
8 in two weeks isn’t very many…and 3 off days so far? guhhh
Then 4 days off in May and June..
Total
It's opening day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bud Selig needs a swift kick in the @®$Є
Aut Vincam Aut Periam
by PioneerSkies on Apr 16, 2009 8:38 PM MDT up reply actions
Another interesting fact is that all of the off-days were scheduled
Unlike some of the other teams that have had off days due to the inclimate weather. Though I’m thinking that the schedulers didn’t have much faith in being able to play games in Chicago this early, and threw the off-days as make-ups
by Chacinisthefuture on Apr 16, 2009 1:23 PM MDT up reply actions
Also
While quickly putting in Grilli was a good move, I still haven’t been impressed with Hurdle’s decisions. It seems like he’s just rotating players more on whim or simple lefty/righty matchups.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but his starting OF yesterday consisted of Stewart in right, Spilly in CF and Smith in LF. Presumably, he put in Stewart and Smith to provide left handed bats against a tough matchup in Harden. While that’s all well and good, if you’re starting Stewart in right, it might make more sense to start Fowler in center and Spilly in left (Spilly has more range than Smith right?). Fowler has by far the best range in our outfield and could shade towards right to help Stewart who, last I watched looked pretty lost in the OF. Since Fowler is a switch hitter, you also keep two lefties in your OF.
But hey, that’s just my opinion.
Smith doesn't play that way,
And doesn’t hit his big HR off of one of the best pitchers in the game, meaning his confidence is still shot heading into LA and his season spirals downhill and the Rockies are left using Omar Quintanilla as a DH against RHP’s in interleague play and the global economy collapses and the sun explodes destroying us all.
I know it’s 20/20 hindsight, but it seems to have worked out alright yesterday. I’m anxious to see more of Dex too, but I’m also anxious for Smith to break out of his early season slump. I’d like the Rockies to have as many weapons as possible in LA and for the rest of the summer.
True
it did work out, and I like Smith and think he’s a solid ballplayer – but once they decided to keep Fowler on the MLB team, I pretty much felt like 1. Smith should lose the playing time and 2. if a guy of Smith’s caliber is getting forced out, it seems like there could be worse problems.
I was going to say that now with Hawpe out for a bit we should be able to have both Fowler and Smith get playing time, but it seems as if Hawpe isn’t going to be out for long at all.
At any rate, I’m not complaining about the results, I’m just trying to find the logic behind Hurdle’s decisions so far this season…
It's a good problem to have
It does leave fans the leeway for a lot of second guessing, but having a productive enough roster that we can debate this is a huge blessing. If it’s Murton and Podsednik instead of Stewart and Fowler, we don’t think at all about it.
Actually
I like Murton more than most and prior to him coming to the Rockies, always felt like he deserved a straight up everyday shot. I feel like him and Smith are similar caliber players who both if given true full time jobs, might not post the sexiest numbers, but would be quality players. Not sure about Smith’s fate but Murton seems destined to have a AAAA reputation.
At any rate, I agree with you about our productive roster and its depth. Basically, Hurdle can make bad decisions but the quality of our bench is strong enough that he can get away with it. Definitely a sweet problem to have…
The biggest problem Hurdle has
is almost his entire bench is made up of young players who they want to make sure get enough at-bats to stay sharp, forcing hurdle to do this constant juggling. They don’t have any pinch-hit specialist like they used to have where they would only start them if someone was injured or to give someone rest.
by Chacinisthefuture on Apr 16, 2009 1:16 PM MDT up reply actions
Bake might be wise to start figuring out how to be this guy
It’ll just add another position to his repertoire
1B
2B
3B
LF
RF
DH
PH
Beer Vendor
Bullpen Coach
Trainer
German
Driver
4th String Dinger
Umpire
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by Andrew Martin on Apr 16, 2009 2:44 PM MDT up reply actions
I know the 3rd string dinger
Seriously, I’ve slept on his couch before. Real cool guy, he was one of the two guys in suits helping Dinger launch tshirts into the crowd. Goes to church with me every once in awhile.
Married, too, so don’t think you girls have an in now.
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by Andrew Martin on Apr 16, 2009 2:54 PM MDT up reply actions
Come on
give the guy SOME credit here
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by Andrew Martin on Apr 16, 2009 2:54 PM MDT up reply actions
Pinch Hit Specialist
Remember John Mabry? Come on! That was….a thing.
Listen, this signature line is a big part of who I am.
by frightened inmate #2 on Apr 16, 2009 4:40 PM MDT up reply actions
Sinking feeling?
the one that D-backs and Giants fans should be feeling right about now with regard to their 2009 season,
Yeah, because there’s no way any team can recover from a bad first month, is there?
Seems Rox Girl may be the first woman ever to suffer from chronic premature ejaculation…
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
?
push the button
Don't say nothing about A.J. Pierzynski without good cause , even if you do i will kick your butt
by pierzynskirules on Apr 16, 2009 9:34 PM MDT up reply actions
If Russ bans Jim from the Row,
is Russ automatically banned from the Pit?
Aut Vincam Aut Periam
by PioneerSkies on Apr 16, 2009 10:49 PM MDT up reply actions
Heh....
it’s like the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople excommunicating each other in 1054.
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by DbacksSkins on Apr 16, 2009 10:59 PM MDT up reply actions
that obscure historical reference
was almost esoteric enough to impress Russ.
Aut Vincam Aut Periam
by PioneerSkies on Apr 16, 2009 11:34 PM MDT up reply actions
The Great Schism??
Not particularly esoteric, although the details and the year might be.
It’s not nearly martial enough to impress Russ. Unless I throw in, as a bonus, the First Crusade in 1095.
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by DbacksSkins on Apr 17, 2009 12:30 AM MDT up reply actions
Now It's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople. Now it’s Turkish delight on a moonlit night.
"Win, or die" -- Marquise de Merteuil
by Jim McLennan on Apr 17, 2009 12:33 AM MDT up reply actions
If you've a date in Constantinople,
she’ll be waiting in Istanbul.
Insert witty and/or humorous signature here.
even Old New York
was once New Amsterdam. Why they changed it, I can’t say.
Aut Vincam Aut Periam
by PioneerSkies on Apr 17, 2009 11:54 AM MDT up reply actions
Seasons like 2007 happen all the time, don't they?
Our run to Rocktober, your flipping off the Pythag. It’s so easy to repeat the circumstances that led to those events, too. Like clockwork, any team could do it and we see it year in, year out. Wash, rinse, repeat.
I think if your team is planning on chasing, they better have a pretty solid reasoning of why they’d be able to pull it off. Such as having one of the best hitters in baseball dropped into your lap for free at the trade deadline or having all of your talented young players click at the right moment to reel off 21 wins out of your last 22 games. With the Diamondbacks, I could see it happening should Justin Upton finally snap into the player he could be. With the Giants? Probably not, that offense would need more than Buster Posey to save it, and the pitching isn’t as good as advertised.
Since it’s your birthday, Jim, and since we haven’t had our day of reckoning for last year’s bet, I’ll let the attack words slide, but that’s a bit strong for this site.
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