A Treatise on the Sufferings Wrought by the Rockies on Rox Girl and a Manifesto of what has to be changed.
John of Gaunt: What is six winters? they are quickly gone.
Bolingbroke: To men in joy; but grief makes one hour ten.Richard II, Act 1, scene
Let me define what a core to me in baseball is: A group of six or more players in the same age range which are the driving nucleus of a ballclub. That driving nucleus is a key ingredient. With the Phillies, you can look to the Howard/Utley/Rollins nucleus as the central core that keeps the other role players valuable. I think that successful teams require some sort of central core from which they derive their strength.
The word "core" has some mysterious etymology, coming into the English language probably in the late 13th century in the trilingual Anglo-Norman period when many words from both French and Latin were incorporated. It's unknown whether it originally derived from the Old French coeur, meaning heart, or the Latin corpus (and the Old French, cors), meaning body. There is evidence that while at first the "body" definition was the primary use, it either gradually became more associated with the term for "heart", or was reintroduced that way, which is where it is at today, although the introduction of nuclear physics has expanded that use to include central reactors and important parts of bombs.
I think this is pertinent to the Rockies. Right now, they have a corpus (and a Corpas), but no coeur. The Rockies Gen R group still meets the six player threshold of a baseball core, but while it may have once been living with Matt Holliday, it's now a dead core, one that no longer has sufficient talent and/or leadership to drive the team to victory on a regular basis.
A central premise of where I'm going to go from here: ONCE A CORE IS DEAD, IT DOES NOT REVIVE WITHOUT AN EXTERNAL CATALYST. Two cores could be functioning on a team at once. The 2008 Dodgers eventually succeeded with a dual core, one 23-26 year old group including Matt Kemp and Andre Ethier, and one 31-35 year old group that included Derek Lowe, Nomar Garciaparra, Chan Ho Park and Takashi Saito. Neither core was functioning for the first half of that season. Manny Ramirez, while clearly in the age range of the older core, provided a catalyst to both groups in leading them to the playoffs.
In 2009, their young core has started to consume the older group and are using Ramirez and Orlando Hudson as super-support, but the Dodgers remain viable because their team has a living, functioning heart. Personally, I think the leaders on that team are Chad Billingsley and Russell Martin right now, and they will continue to do just fine without Ramirez. With the Rockies Gen R group, a few of the players are performing decently, a couple very well, but it's an insufficient, inferior group of players on the whole.
Where is the Heart?
So if the heart is no longer in the 28-30 year old group for the Rockies, where is it, and what can be done to make it strong enough to compete for the playoffs? The next group down, the 25 to 27-year old players, includes Ubaldo Jimenez, Chris Iannetta, Seth Smith and a handful of key relievers and is actually where most of the team's win value is coming from on the young 2009 season, but it seems to be an inner core without a sufficient outer core to go around it, leaving it about as useless as the 28-30 year old group when it comes to leading this team to a winning record. Perhaps because the team was built this way, the body of the older players and the manager do not seem keen on letting themselves be led by this group.
The organization's 22-24 year old group, on the other hand, seems to be rich with players that could lead an inner core and surround it as an outer body. Troy Tulowitzki, Dexter Fowler, Ian Stewart and Carlos Gonzalez are all potential impact players. The Rockies AA Tulsa rotation is full of quality potential MLB level starters in and near the same age range, and the upper system is littered with other players in this age group that can fill around whatever emerges as the central life force. The big problem with this group right now is that it lacks experience, it simply is unready to emerge as the lead force on a contending team, particularly one that's insistent that there's life left in the body currently laying on top of it.
Since the Matt Holliday trade, which moved in the right direction by shifting players into the two groups more likely to be the lifeblood of the next successful Rockies franchise, management both on the field and off seems to still be trying to build this team around the idea that the Cook/Hawpe/Atkins Gen R group is still a playoff caliber core. In acquiring Jason Marquis, Matt Belisle and Matt Murton, whether the moves were wise and valuable or not, the team took on additions that left that Gen R group as the focus to the detraction of players like Seth Smith and Matt Daley. Sadly, adding arms and legs and fingers and toes to a dead body is not going to bring it back to life.
Whereas
1. Gen R (28-30 year old players) has outlived its usefulness as a core group and will not be the central focus of the next playoff competitive Rockies team.,
And:
2. The next generation (Iannetta/Jimenez/Smith, 25-27 year old players) has a few solid players, but not enough to be a playoff core by itself,
Therefore:
3. The Rockies focus should be on building on and around the 22-24 year old group (Generation Dext) which has the elements of a fine a core group in place,
or
4. Trade from both the Gen R group and the Generation Dext group to build a functioning, competitive body around Iannetta and Jimenez.
What needs to be done:
1. Either fire or extend Dan O'Dowd right now.
If this team is really at a crossroads where it needs to be siphoning off player assets to achieve long range plans, it needs a GM with job security. I'm ambivalent toward O'Dowd's employment right now. I think the front office has made considerable mistakes in several areas, not the least of which is in fan outreach, which it's doing little if anything to improve upon and that tends to make the rest of what the team does put to a higher standard. You'll be more lax in judgment with a friend than an aloof stranger, and this front office is more the latter than the former. The personnel decisions have been a mixed bag, and as I am saying here, I really don't know if the team recognizes its own strengths and weaknesses. And while there have been some small successes and one large one over his tenure, the overall sum of the experience has been one of failure. Yet ultimately while I think it's likely that there are better GM's available out there, I have little confidence in our current ownership selecting one.
The team can't be guided by a lame duck. A general manager that's worrying about his job security will always lean to make moves that have more immediate benefit, and sometimes this won't be in the best interest of the franchise at that level of decision making. With the field manager, immediacy is paramount, but sometimes a GM has to make decisions for the future that could be detrimental to the present, and right now, the Rockies seem to be in such a position.
2. Kill Gen R -
Burn Sanderson: You can't hardly tell at first, not till they get to the point of slobbering and staggering around. When you see a critter in that fix, you know for sure. But you want to watch for others that ain't that far along. Now, you take a bobcat or a fox. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, or maybe makes fight at you, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. After he's bitten you, it's too late.
Old Yeller, 1957
Some of these players could stay with the team and play valuable support roles to the next central core, but right now the Rockies still seem to be constructed around the idea that this Gen R group can be competitive core despite everybody seeing that Tulo and Dex and company are where the team is headed. Two seasons from now, the Atkins/Hawpe/Cook/Barmes era of players will be well into their declines, the time for getting value for them is now. I think the players from this group have been vocal and at times whiny, and they are using solidarity to absolve themselves from inadequate performances rather than to correct themselves as a group. They borrow this behavior from the owners and managers above them.
At any rate, a shift needs to take place. Seven useful and at least somewhat desirable players from that age group that should be shopped before the trade deadline:
- Brad Hawpe
- Aaron Cook
- Jorge De La Rosa
- Ryan Spilborghs
- Jason Marquis *
- Yorvit Torrealba *
- Clint Barmes
The two with asterisks are also likely to be considered salary burdens by the acquiring team. Trades involving them might not bring much more than salary relief for the Rockies. I think the Rockies need to trade at least two from this group, including either of the two likely most valuable players to other teams in Hawpe or Cook, but a clear signal needs to be given that the torch is getting passed.
Three more players that the Rockies would be selling low on, but probably should consider cutting ties with anyway:
- Garrett Atkins
- Jeff Baker
- Omar Quintanilla
This is hard, particularly in the case of Atkins, who has meant so much to the franchise over the last four or five seasons, particularly in 2007, but if the team legitimately asks itself to what benefit retaining the services of these players brings, and whether that benefit couldn't be matched or bettered from other available quarters, I don't think an honest assessment comes down in favor of retention. With the players above, that is less true.
3. Do not renew Clint Hurdle's contract -
Firing him at this point does nothing unless the team really feels it needs a head on a pike to placate certain boorish fans and sports columnists who probably don't deserve that satisfaction. At any rate, I feel at this point that O'Dowd would be the better fit for that role given what I pointed out above. If the Rockies are going to have another miracle turnaround in 2009, they're going to have it independent of the manager. Of course, Hurdle's consistent inability to instill life in this moribund franchise doesn't deserve yet another chance to make things right in 2010, either.
4. Focus on Building around the real core talent with their peak window (2011-2014) in mind.
Is Ubaldo Jimenez an ace to build around? Or should the Rockies dangle him to attract one?
The team shouldn't give up on 2010, the goal should be an above .500 season and respectability, but the bigger picture is saying that 2011 and onwards, when Tulo, Fowler and Stewart et al are entering their primes, will be the next best chance for this team making a serious impact in the playoffs. The focus in trades probably needs to be on developing a supporting cast around this group. O'Dowd's quest for young pitchers seems to suggest he has an idea of this, but he's trying to catch a shark with an earthworm if he thinks Ryan Spilborghs or Matt Murton will bring back the ace level pitcher he seeks to fill out that potential staff.
As you can see in our imaginary 2011 depth chart, though, that lack of a staff ace remains the major problem for the Rockies, just as it is now:
C: Iannetta/McKenry/Rosario
1B: Helton/?
2B: Nelson/Gomez/Young
3B: Stewart/Holcomb
SS: Tulo/
LF: Smith/Garner
CF: Dex/?
RF: Gonzalez/?
SP#1: ?
SP#2: Jimenez/Chacin
SP#3: Morales/Rogers
SP#4: Deduno/Friedrich
SP#5: Smith/Reynolds/Weiser/Hynick/etc..,
RP: Street
RP: Corpas
RP: Daley
RP: Weathers
RP: Lindsay, etc..,
5. Catch a big fish, using big bait.
If Matt Holliday can't bring back a future top of the rotation pitcher, the Rockies or their fans shouldn't expect anybody else of the aforementioned Gen R group to do so, either. Building packages around several players isn't really a solution, as frequently this becomes the barter equivalent of trying to add potatoes from your plate to bring back a steak from somebody else's. No matter how many potatoes you pile on, if that person wants steak, they aren't going to cut it. So what is to be done? As far as I can tell, the Rockies have maybe five players capable of bringing back a future ace type of pitcher:
- Ubaldo Jimenez
- Chris Iannetta
- Troy Tulowitzki
- Dexter Fowler
- doubtfully, Ian Stewart
Anybody else would require a tulip bulb mania type of situation where a player's perceived value is in enough of a bubble that some GM overreaches. Rather than relying on this unlikelihood, the Rockies a little while down the road will need to consider whether a lateral value move from one of these players to a future front of the rotation pitcher is in the team's best interest. Does that mean you're going to have to replace one of them in that above depth chart? Yes. That's what you use your trades of these other parts to take care of, that's how you build a winning franchise.
6. Community Outreach:
This might seem kind of dumb to you, but going back to last night's Immanuel Kant allusion, a lot of Rockies fans, and members of the media, are simply incapable of perceiving the team as successful or even potentially successful without a total overthrow of the system from the ground up, because they've been conditioned by their experience to understand losing and failure as part and parcel with Rockies baseball. We've seen them in game threads, we have them as friends and acquaintances. They aren't bad or even necessarily wrong, they are definitely Rockies fans, they are just conditioned to failure to a greater degree than the rest of us.
Even this screed of mine accepts as a given that the team as constituted doesn't get better this year. Sadly, if we perceive it this way, chances are there are players in the clubhouse who do as well, which is another reason to break them up and bring in new blood. But back to the point, these attitudes can become viral in nature and spread to an entire community. This principal is what lies behind change of venue pleas in courts when unbiased jurors simply can't be found because of media saturation.
Better community outreach won't change this, only protracted winning will, but it can bolster the fans that already have sympathetic leanings, and if the team really needs to undergo the considerable shifts outlined, the F.O. will need at least some sympathetic voices as advocates or risk complete alienation. The aloofness of ownership and the front office to Rockies fans is already contributing to the spread of negativity, you'll note that despite similar recent underperformance relative to expectations, that the front offices in Oakland and Arizona are given longer leashes by their fanbase than we are willing to give as Rockies fans. Do not think that it's just merely a coincidence that these front offices spend at least some time interacting with fans on forums such as this one.
Conclusion:
Alright, I've probably prattled on enough, and I know I'm not really touching on much, if any, new ground here. I just think it's important to lay out what exactly is at stake, and what is going on with the organization as I see it. Right now, the team is diseased. It can act or it can sit on its hands and let the infection spread. The first moves have to be made, and I'm not talking about cutting a Glendon Rusch or switching a Dexter Fowler for a Carlos Gonzalez, I'm talking about making real hard decisions or the one year out of the playoffs and under .500 will stretch into four, into seven, into the dozen or so you see the team we just faced has suffered through.
Somebody step up and fix this team. No longer accept as a given that everything will just sort itself out. That is all I can say right now. I, as I'm sure most Rockies fans do, eagerly await a response.
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Wow.
As for #6: Dan O’Dowd, the Monfort Bros., anyone in the Rockies organization who is reading this, contact us. Let us interview you. Stop being stuck in the 20th century. Move into the 21st and use the new evolution of the media to help the fans understand. We’re not your enemy, just fans who want honest answers.
"If we never try, we shall never succeed." - Abraham Lincoln
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
And amen, Brother Russ!
The great thing about baseball is that there's a crisis every day. ~Gabe Paul
C'mon Russ..
This is the same team that eliminated Fanfest for non-season ticket holders and quit the Rocky Mountain tour after the 95 season. They’re not trying to reach any of the fans.
Check out my Rockies comic strip at:
Rock Drive 1.4
I would be incredibly in favor of this
I’m actually jealous of the Pit. I can understand Hurdle not coming on, but there has to be someone in the organization who would be open to this.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 17, 2009 10:13 PM MDT up reply actions
How poignant
But russ we don’t have bigtime reputable degrees or whatever
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 18, 2009 12:04 AM MDT up reply actions
(Slow clap)
Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.
Clap
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 17, 2009 10:13 PM MDT up reply actions
Very Good Read
I am waiting for a response from the Organization. No not one to us here at Purple Row, but one that sends a message to all the fans.
It is not okay to loose 2 of 3 from the Pirates, the Giants, the Astros, and the Marlins, all within the same month. How can this type of performance be acceptable to any organization? When is enough enough?
I have been beating the fire Hurdle Drum for a long time now, and as much as I want him gone, I know its not going to solve all of our problems, but what it will do is send a message that the Organization isn’t going to tolerate mediocrity anymore.
As for your suggestions above, you have some very well formulated thoughts, but I would like to comment on a few.
I am fine with doing some type of Firesale and trading Hawpe, Atkins, Steet, and even Cook, as long as we are able to get some premium talent back, I do however draw the line at players such as Tulo, Ianetta, Jimenez, Fowler, and Stewart. These five represent the next Core of this team, and I believe that Jimenez will become a number one in about a season or two. Tulo, Ianetta, and Fowler represent the up the middle talent that you always want to build a team around, and I think if Stewart were given regular playing time, he could easily hit 40 homeruns and have MVP type seasons.
I would like to see the following done.
1) Fire Hurdle, send a message that we will not tolerate mediocrity anymore, take your craptacular pitching coach with you.
2) Trade Hawpe or Cook to the highest bidder.
3) Keep Atkins around until he proves he can hit again, then trade him for what ever you get.
4) In return for Hawpe or Cook or Atkins, you need to get a franchise type second baseman. When you have Ianetta, Tulo, 2b, Fowler up the middle, that is a great starting point.
5) Trade Murton or Spilly for whatever you can get.
6) Barmes has had his chance for how many seasons to prove he doesn’t suck… he does. Get rid of him
7) Play the following for the rest of the season
C: Ianetta
1b: Helton – Can’t really move him
2b: Whoever we get in back in a trade
3b: Stewart
SS: Tulo
LF: Smith – What does this guy have to do to get regular PT?
CF: Fowler
RF: Gonzales
As for the rotation, its really to early to call up Chacin, so you go with what you got. Right now they aren’t the problem. Jimenez and Cook are coming around, De La Rosa can’t get run support, Marquis is doing what we expected him to, and Morales was coming around until he got hurt.
Sentimentality
The Gen-R core won a pennant. They were part of lifting the Rockies from the absolute dregs of the National League to the very top. They were the keys to the franchise’s finest hour. We as fans will always have fond memories of guys like Cook, Atkins, and Spilborghs. But if you hold on to guys past their expiration date just because of what they meant to your franchise in the past, at the expense of your future… well, then, you’re the Colorado Avalanche.
You touched on this earlier this week, Rox Girl, when you talked about why not trading Atkins this offseason was a valuable decision in that it didn’t lead a further fan revolt by selling off two popular players in the same winter. The Rockies can’t worry about this anymore. They’re now losing fans and support based on the futility of the on-field product, not the guys wearing the laundry with ‘ROCKIES’ across the chest.
The front office is afraid if they publicly throw in the towel on 2009, they’ll lose more ticket revenue and more support. They’re probably right, but they are going to lose that ticket revenue anyway because this team stinks and nobody’s going to pay to see them past the All-Star Break even if the ‘stay the course, we’ll be OK’ mentality persists. Bite the bullet, tear down what needs to be torn down, and make steps towards earning that money back by hosting home playoff games throughout the next decade.
The Rockies are kinda like my apartment right now – the exterior isn’t pretty and there’s some stuff around here in real disrepair… but there’s some real nice furniture that shouldn’t be cast out because of the external apperance.
Or maybe we’re like Charlie Brown’s Christmas tree… “all it needs is a little love.”
Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.
4) In return for Hawpe or Cook or Atkins, you need to get a franchise type second baseman. When you have Ianetta, Tulo, 2b, Fowler up the middle, that is a great starting point.
The only place I can think of that of that has more than more than one MLB ready decent 2B is Texas w/ Joaquin Arias, Ian Kinsler & Elvis Andrus.
No more asking please for wins, now I'm telling you: YOU WILL WIN.
"Good is not good when better is expected." -Vin Scully
by The Lodo Magic Man on May 17, 2009 10:30 PM MDT up reply actions
Disagree with the 2B
I disagree with trying to get a “franchise type” second baseman. Though obviously, if someone throws one at you, you catch him.
For starters, who are we talking? No one’s going to trade a Kinsler, Pedroia, or even an Utley. Second, 2B’s tend not to age as well, probably because the better athletes tend to end up at short or in CF. A decent GM should be able to come up with an adequate 2B without having to package up what little trade bait there is for one.
Great work.
Bravo. I hesitate to even comment here, because I’m the type of fan who loves the game but doesn’t really have many intelligent things to say about, and people like me can bring down a comment thread fast. However, I enjoyed reading this post, and I look forward to thoughtful responses from all the baseball-smart people who comment here.
Me, I don’t mind following a losing team (and we’re all used to that here), but I at least want to see some sort of change. The “core” theory is interesting, and it actually helps make sense of this confounding season, which I was so optimistic about. At this point, I sort of just want to ignore the Rockies’ existence until 2010. The thought of watching this same group of 25 guys, lead by the same manager, performing in the same manner, for 120 more games, is extremely depressing. However, if I get the sense that the organization recognizes that things are broken, and if they begin to make serious changes, then I won’t mind hanging in there even through a losing season.
Well done!
You hit almost all the points I did in my modest proposal and you did it with flair and panache!
Rec’d.
Eschew Obfuscation!
Changes need to be made...
I don’t care if they are in the starting lineup or through trades, but they need to be made. If you look at the top 50 performers in the NL this season, there are four Rockies playing over their heads who either need to be flipped for younger talent or played consistently. I’m talking about Hawpe, Smith, Murton, JDLR. Look at this list and tell me what it means to you:
Ranking of Top 50 NL Players
Hitters – OPS have a minimum of 3.1 plate appearances per team game.
3. Hawpe 1.067
21. Helton .922
47. Tulo .814
…..non-qualifiers…
S. Smith .981
C. Iannetta .882
M. Murton .804
Pitchers – ERA Leaders – must have a minimum of 1.0 inning pitched per team game.
12. De La Rosa 3.16
34. U. Jimenez 4.30
47. J. Marquis 5.40
50. A. Cook 5.71
…..non-qualifiers…
J. Grilli 2.57
F. Morales 3.38
H. Street 4.11
T. Bucholz 3.39 (2007-2008 numbers)
Check out my Rockies comic strip at:
Rock Drive 1.4
Not even finished reading your excellent post yet.
But a small nitpick, Hong-Chih Kuo is only 27, so I’d put him in the Dodgers’ young players core if anything. Also, Nomar really didn’t do anything last year. I’d say our veteran core was Lowe, Kuroda, and Furcal. Of course it was the young players that really carried the team.
by Brendan Scolari on May 17, 2009 10:58 PM MDT reply actions
Spot on
I agree completely. I’m a lions fan during football season and I see many similarities between that fan base and this one. Sadness leads to anger which leads to ambivalance.
Lots of talk in the game thread about getting out and doing other things besides watching the game-I did the same.
Denver is in no danger of losing its team, if Miami can keep at team anyone can. Instead, the Rockies are in danger of becoming the Royals-completely stale and irrelevant.
Great read.
InToddwetrust
I've never been a fan of firing O'Dowd
But why do we want to trade the players that are playing well?
I understand the “focus on the next wave” line of thinking, but getting rid of the under-acheivers should be the priority.
Other than that, RoxGirl that was a nice rant. I couldn’t agree more with you and wolf.
by rockieprogress on May 17, 2009 11:07 PM MDT reply actions
Too thought-out for a rant
Rox Girl is being self-deprecating there…
Anyway, the decision whether to trade good players is always difficult. I think the thing the front office needs to decide is, where do they think this team is.
Sometimes you trade the players who are playing well for younger players. Write off 2009-2010 and try to regroup for 2011 and beyond.
I still secretly want to keep Hawpe
but I think his production will drop off before Helton is actually gone
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 18, 2009 12:09 AM MDT up reply actions
I do too, on both counts
We held onto Atkins too long, and if Hawpe keeps this up, his stock will never be higher than at this coming trade deadline
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 18, 2009 12:11 AM MDT up reply actions
alas
we won’t trade him
and strangely enough, I think we could trade him the easiest (in terms of Denver fans revolting) just because he’s never really been a .300 hitter, and we know how all-important THAT is.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 18, 2009 12:13 AM MDT up reply actions
We will try to trade him but our asking price will be way too high.
I’m not advocating giving him away but at least be realistic about his value.
Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field?
Author: Jim Bouton
If you get rid of only the underachievers, the return may not be sufficient to propel the team to consistency
If all you’re going to be getting back is fifth starters, backup outfielders and minor league relief arms for trading away the underachievers, how will it help the team now or down the road? I think there has to be at least one move made with a greater return in mind. I don’t think you get rid of everybody, though. Trade one of the pair of Hawpe or Cook, but not both.
My point in getting rid of them
Is that they block other players from developing.
Atkins has totally blocked Stewart because Hurdle keeps putting his name on the card.
The same thing will happen to CarGo if he starts tearing it up in CS. Hawpe will block him in RF and Spilly/Smith will block him in LF. Which player/players are going to provide more offense? I’d say it will be Hawpe, but others would disagree and want to trade him because of his defense. Spilly is a nice 4th OF on a good team, and so is Smith.
Neither of them will bring much in return, you’re right, but they also won’t develop into much more than they are already, so why keep them. Its not always about what teh team can get for them in a trade.
It should be about putting the best team on the field… And a bunch of utilitarian players that are bouncing around to different positions is not working, so get rid of a couple of them and focus on the remaining ones that have enough value to provide a bridge to the next crop.
by rockieprogress on May 18, 2009 9:26 AM MDT up reply actions
The other point is surplus.
If a team has a surplus of talent at one position, it makes sense to move some of it to plug other holes. Of course, Atkins/Stewart looked a whole lot more surplussy in spring training than it does now.
I think you look into trading Smith/Spilly for that reason, rather than because they’re blocking CarGon. CarGon is off to a marvelous start and maybe all of a sudden he has put it together—it can happen with guys of his talent. But 30+ games is still just 30+ games, he still has an unexceptional minor league record overall, and could still fall on his face.
Keep Smith
Young, inexpensive, awesome, and he’s a “go forward with” kind of guy.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 18, 2009 10:05 AM MDT up reply actions
I don't think we're too far apart here,
I just don’t think the talent level of the next core has quite enough to be a really competitive team just yet. We have some solid aspects but after attrition is factored in, I think we could use a few more. The two solutions I see to fix that are either have a fantastic success rate of college selections on our first four picks of the draft in June or trade one of either Hawpe or Cook to fill out some of the depth and gaps and have one or two solid college selections in the draft.
Hawpe was an overall negative compared to an average MLB outfielder in 2008, his defense actually dropped him to one of the least valuable regular OF’s in the game, and that would be even if you feel that playing in Coors Field has some negative effects on these advanced defensive metrics that aren’t being accounted for, as I do. This year he’s much better both offensively and defensively, but which season would be the more reliable assumption for him going forward now that he’ll be on the wrong side of 30?
I think Smith is a better player to keep than Spilly certainly, both on talent and because of his age and cost to the team, I think in win value, he will be better than Hawpe next season, perhaps by the end of this season if he’s given regular playing time. This fourth OF meme with him is persistent and pretty wrong. His career OPS away from Coors Field is .845, which is a chunk higher than our left fielder from last season. Given his quality defense, I think he’s a competitive starter, I think he’s probably the Rockies most underrated player right now. Why would you trade a player like that if he’s not going to bring you back a player that brings as much value to the team than he does? Like you say, it should be about putting the best team on the field, and right now, I think that team’s OF is Hawpe/CarGon/Smith. Next year, it will be CarGon/Fowler/Smith.
Spilly
He’s an interesting player, to be sure. Yesterday’s error notwithstanding, his ability to handle all 3 OF spots (even if you might not want him starting in CF fulltime) is a huge plus. Though if CarGon comes up, he has similar ability—perhaps even better, judging from last year’s numbers.
A gaggle of CenterFielders...
CarGon, Spilly, and Smith can play all three outfield positions which makes them extremely valuable from a defensive standpoint.
Check out my Rockies comic strip at:
Rock Drive 1.4
And I think if the Rockies were to trade both Hawpe and Cook...
as well as Marquis and Atkins (possibly Spilborghs and/or Murton too) while jettisoning Q, that would be the right excision of talent from the team to get the optimal return.
Eschew Obfuscation!
by Jeff Aberle on May 18, 2009 10:45 AM MDT up reply actions
But why do we want to trade the players that are playing well?
I understand the "focus on the next wave" line of thinking, but getting rid of the under-acheivers should be the priority.
I think Buy Low/Sell High is what Rox Girl is getting at. I agree with her – FIRE SALE!!!!
by cocainelips99 on May 18, 2009 8:36 AM MDT up reply actions
...and she doesn't go far enough with her suggestions.
If you’re going to have a fire sale, have a fire sale. Blow it up. Make the team better in the long run by freeing up dead money and reinvest in the draft and getting young talent in the draft. But if we are going to go this route, we have to get it right, getting players who could actually develop into stars in return for our solid talent. By this I mean top of the rotation starters and stud hitters.
I also know that RG disagrees with me on the fact that I don’t want in return higher talented players at C or SS, because they would just be organizationally blocked. Better to focus where our system is weaker (particularly OF and 1B, with high-ceiling pitchers always welcome). I’m of the opinion that we aren’t getting much out of our system (solid major league starters) from the OF or corner IF positions for a while, unless we trade/draft for them soon.
Eschew Obfuscation!
by Jeff Aberle on May 18, 2009 10:53 AM MDT up reply actions
I think that's the wrong message
It results in too much chaos and too little purpose and I believe it would require a wait until at least 2012 to recover from, possibly longer given the strengths of the Giants and Dodgers organizations, and I think that makes the Rockies next window very short. If you want a Marlins type of situation where you have a one-two year shot at a great season and then another blow-up, this is the road to take, otherwise, there has to be some substantial continuity even amidst the rearranging.
It's also difficult.
It’s difficult to tear down a team completely and attempt to reconstruct it with prospects.
I don’t see a problem with receiving good C and SS in return, as long as you’re confident you can move them to another team for what you want.
Spot on
Couldn’t agree more.
By the way, It pleases me that one of my photos made it into the rant of the year.
O'Dowd and Hurdle
I whole heartedly agree with the point about O’Dowd. It was odd to let both him and Hurdle enter the season as lame ducks. They’ve both been with the team for a while. Do you trust them or not?
If not, then at very least, they should have replaced O’Dowd in the offseason. GM is too important a position to leave in a lame duck position.
I don’t know enough about O’Dowd’s role in drafting and acquiring players, but the organization seems strong there and I assume O’Dowd is a big part of that. So that’s a plus. He’s come a looooong way from his early years, where he seemed to try a different plan every year.
I’m on the fence about Hurdle. If he goes (which seems likely), I don’t think they lose someone irreplaceable. It’s hard to ignore his record (one winning season).
However, I have a hard time believing he’s the problem, or that another manager would have driven the team further the past 7 years. This franchise has never been particularly successful. There have been some really bad players here. When the team decided no more big contracts, Hurdle was given the task of managing a team full of young, emerging players. How many of them did not reach their potential? Compare this team to the Diamondbacks, or even the Rays. The number of young players who have come through for this team is commendable, and Hurdle deserves some of the credit.
Which is not to say you couldn’t reassign him somewhere else in the organization (if he opted for that).
Very provocative
Most of your conclusions have merit, but I believe this "core" concept is outcome based. Cook can be a good pitcher for 10 more years. It does make sense to prepare for a fire sale to pick up young pitchers.
A good 5 game winning streak will cure a lot of problems.
Today’s game was powerfully sad.
so...
xPOOFx winning streak? I agree, it’d bring a lot of confidence etc back, but how do we get said streak?
This game was awful. Spoiled my KOA appearance.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 18, 2009 12:11 AM MDT up reply actions
Winning streaks....
require consistency. At least consistency over 5 days. And that’s 4 days longer than this team has shown itself capable of.
But yeah, they’ll streak. They’ll streak in August when they’re 18 and a half out. Then they’ll be 15 and a half out. And then we’ll hear about all the good things we have to build upon for next season.
That makes me sad
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 18, 2009 12:19 AM MDT up reply actions
Well...
…join the club. There’s a lot of company here.
Ah well, being sad about a baseball team is a heck of lot better than being sad about something “real”. If the worst thing in my life is a losing ballclub, I guess I’ve got nothing to complain about. :)
Assumption behind all our posts: lack of resources
I think it’s useful to note what I think we’re all assuming—ownership either can’t, or won’t, spend much more money on this team than they currently are. ($77 M or so payroll, not sure what they budget for player development —drafting and such.)
Even teams with $100M payrolls need to be careful when considering how long to hang on to players, but teams with more limited resources like the Rockies have to be even more discriminating.
Otherwise, they can end up like the Pirates (heh, I know, they whupped us), year after mediocre year, a few nice players here and there (Hi Jason Bay, how’s Fenway?), but never an optimistic outlook.
The lack of resources (or willingness to spend them) isn't an assumption.
The Monforts have come out and said there will be no more money available for moves/pick ups later in the season. I don’t know if they don’t have the resources or are unwilling to spend them to improve the club. But either way, it tells me that our ownership group isn’t interested in doing what’s needed to improve this club. If they don’t have the resources to put a competitive club on the field, they need to sell to someone who can and will. If they have the resources but won’t spend them, they don’t deserve the support of the fans.
Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field?
Author: Jim Bouton
Uh...
Good luck trying to find owners who will put their own money into a team’s yearly expenses. Maybe it happens, but I don’t see it happening often; Pohlad seems a more common example than Steinbrenner. So that leaves the question of whether the Rockies have resources that the Monforts won’t spend—i.e., are they taking too big a cut of Rockies revenue. I don’t have this kind of info, though the Forbes estimates have the Rockies’ payroll lagging a bit behind other teams of similarly-estimated revenue.
Even so, it seems a safe bet that they can’t spend their way out of this problem.
I don't expect them to spend their personal wealth on the club.
I do hope that they aren’t “taking too big of a cut of Rockies revenue” to use your phrase. If they are doing this and not putting anything back into the product, we can never expect it get any better. And I do think that this thing won’t get fixed without the allocation of more resources.
So if they don’t have the resources in the team, I would like to see them sell it someone who would provide adequate capital to provide a competitive club.
Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field?
Author: Jim Bouton
Great Write Up
For me, the crux of this all is #6. Is the Rockies a viable entertainment piece of the Denver area? Or, are they a joke. A laughing stock. I think this organization has already lost Denver. Most fans have given up on the Rockies, not 09…but for a long time in the past, and for a long time to come
It’s time to shake up an entire organization, I do not mean, the names on the back of the jersey’s. I don’t care who plays on the Rockies, and most of the average public don’t know who they are either. Since we can’t fire the Monforts, then the next level that can be fired is the GM. It ultimately is his responsibility. Then the new GM will clean house, to make it his.
This team is on pace to lose 99 games this season. It’s a hard fact to hear, but, that is unacceptable, and something clearly should be done. Or Rockies will become, if they haven’t already (and I personally believe they have) a perennial bottom feeder, like the Pirates or the Royals
What was once lost can be reclaimed, Redhawk...
in time, all things are possible.
Winning, and doing it consistently, is after all the best remedy.
Eschew Obfuscation!
I hope you are right
I hope that the Rockies can turn this ship around. If they could just get it pointed in the right direction, that would be something.
I’m afraid, I’ve lost faith in this organization. If they keep O’Dowd, and Hurdle, and keep doing the same old same old, I think this team will keep getting the same results, and history says, that’s not been good. Like a lot of Denver, I no longer expect 2010 to be any different then 2009, which is no different then 2008, which was no different then 2007 minus one amazing month, which was no different then 2006……
I’ve lost faith, and hope in the Colorado Rockies as an institution.
I dunno man
The atmosphere in LoDo in 2007 during the playoffs was unparalleled. I think that if you put a winner on the field you will see 40,000+ in the stadium most nights and a full Rockpile (remember when that used to happen all the time?).
by cocainelips99 on May 18, 2009 8:40 AM MDT up reply actions
Yes
like Jabberwocky and you and others have pointed out, if the Rockies can put a winner on the field, and by that, I mean just competitive. To be with in 5 games of a playoff spot either the division or the Wild Card in August, and do it fairly consistently over a matter of years, then yes, I think the Rockies can easily win back the Fans.
Where I’ve lost faith is not with the fans, (in fact I had a nice running tread conversation in the game thread Sunday defending the Denver fans). I’ve lost faith in the Rockies organization. The fans (in general) see the Rockies as a joke, a bunch of losers, and not even the “lovable” kind. They (and now me) will need to be won back.
For the first time in my baseball rooting life time, I’m wondering what I’m going to do for the summer, and I’ve rooted for some bad teams. This morning, I’m actually embarrassed to wear my Rockies cap, and I’ve never been this low before on any team I’ve been a fan of. I don’t feel there is a “next year” or “rebuilding”.
I’m really hurting over this.
I just don't....
…have the energy to think about who should stay and who should go. Nor do i look to future lineups with any great sense of hope. I’m just beaten down by this right now.
It’s hard to see this getting better, and there’s no way a new skipper will really make a difference. Honestly, the only thing that would give me any hope would be an ownership that demanded excellence and held people — at all levels — accountable.
At least we're not alone
Saw this linked at BBTF today – apparently the Indians are the Rockies of the American League. Some really eerie parallels here, not just from Shapiro’s comments but from the comments of the writer who could just as easily be expressing our own frustrations: Link
Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.
Thanks for the link
that was actually very refreshing, and humorous article. Change some names, and it would easily be about the Rockies.
Denver post this morning
has just the game article and nothing else. God this team has a low Q factor in Denver.
If you can't say anything nice
Don’t say anything at all. At least I assume that must be their approach right now.
Plan
I agree with a lot of what was stated:
1. Corpas to the minors
2. Hurdle needs to go now along with Apodaca…the Rockies need to stabilize the pitching coach situation for next year and beyond it might as well start now. If O’Dowd will pull that trigger, sign him to his extension; he has done a good job getting talent. Ryne Sanberg as manager?
3. Move Hawpe, I have contended all along, he would be a great fit for Texas. Blalock’s obp is awful and will remain that way. You won’t get a sure bet, but a strong pitching prospect and strong infield prspect could come back.
4. Set the outfield rotation of Spilly, Fowler, Smith and CarGo. Move Murton on, or use as bat off the bench
5. Declare Stewart as the everyday 3b and make Q the 2nd baseman. Move Barmes and something else for Homer Bailey. Evidentally, the Reds are still willing to move him cheaply. I am sick of the constant line-up change.
6. PRAY!
Q the 2nd baseman???
I know the chorus of “small sample size” is going to cascade down on this post, but we’ve just got to have better options for 2nd somewhere in the system than Q.
Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field?
Author: Jim Bouton
That would be
EY jr.
Q would only be a bridge to get to 2010.
by rockieprogress on May 18, 2009 9:42 AM MDT up reply actions
neither of them are the answer at 2B
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 18, 2009 9:52 AM MDT up reply actions
I totally and 100% disagree with you on Eric Young Jr.
You have dismissed him already. Why? because of how he’s looked against major league pitching? because of his age? because he’s failed to hit in the minors? All of these would be a no.
I don’t see why you have closed the door on EY2. I also don’t understand, why if anyone even suggests giving him a look, and a shot, you have to be right there to dismiss it, like you have ruled, and thus the decree has gone out from Ceaser.
I’ve see EYjr in a couple of games, I’ve seen his stats. He looks like someone that should have a shot. Is he a future super star? I doubt it, but as badly as this organization is hurting for 2nd baseman, and for speed, I see no reason to dismiss him from the island that you rule on.
I agree with you on EY2, I think he should be given a chance as well,
But I think you’re a bit strong in your response to RMN, here. He’s not being a dictator, he’s just asserting his opinion as you are.
now hold on
You agreed with me that EY2 projects to be more of a bench player anyhow.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 18, 2009 10:23 AM MDT up reply actions
I do, and ultimately I think that's where he winds up.
But that doesn’t preclude me from also believing that he should be given a shot to show that’s not the case. I think his work has deserved at least that.
Matt Holliday
was projected to be a bench player as well at one point in his minor league career, and J.D. Closser was projected to be a starter. Some times, projections are wrong. Some times they are right.
But so far, I have not seen any reason to assume EY2 couldn’t be a starter. He’s hit well at each level, though he’s had some adjustment periods in his growth, and he can obviously run on minor league catchers. You claim he can’t field second. I claim almost anyone can play 2nd, if they can move at all.
Especially given the current dirth of talent in the Rockies at 2nd. He’s worth a shot.
I think Gomez takes it from him.
Unless we use Tulo to acquire an ace. Gomez is going to have to play somewhere and relatively soon. If Nelson gets his act together, he could have a say in things, too, but Hector is the real guy to watch out for.
That's an interesting prospect
Do you think Gomez is going to be better than Tulo, glove and bat, enough that we would take the risk of bringing in a major pitcher?
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 18, 2009 10:46 AM MDT up reply actions
Bat, probably. Glove? I'm not sold on that.
But if there was a prospect in our system that could make that franchise player kind of leap, he’s the one.
And I'd love to see it
HanRam is one of the few players I admire like this, he has actually put real work into improving his fielding, and it’s made him one of the top 5 players in MLB. If Gomez was able to put this into his game, I’d be all for moving Tulo.
Seriously though, I don’t know if Tulo will ever recover his range after that quad tear. I mean, he still has a cannon of an arm, and is still a good SS, but yeah, his range is below average anymore.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 18, 2009 10:56 AM MDT up reply actions
"Below average" is a gross overstatement
Or you’re watching a different Tulowitzki then I am, it’s one or the other.
Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.
by Franchise26 on May 18, 2009 11:01 AM MDT up reply actions
you're saying he sucks terribly?
Or he’s awesome?
UZR points to him being -.5 wins over 150 games
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 18, 2009 11:13 AM MDT up reply actions
Minus half a freaking win?
I’d still call that ‘average’ but hey maybe that’s just me. Let’s not start saying he’s Derek Jeter out there or anything.
Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.
by Franchise26 on May 18, 2009 11:25 AM MDT up reply actions
I don't recall taking that stance
I just want to see him with that fire, that drive that he had in 07, where it was MY BALL I WILL TAKE PLAYS FROM YOU that made his defensive season one to behold.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 18, 2009 12:01 PM MDT up reply actions
I agree with you RMN...
Tulo’s not the same SS we saw in 07. Maybe it’s the quad tear, maybe it’s the offensive slump carrying over, but if he continues in his defensive decline he would be better off at 3B or CF with that cannon.
Check out my Rockies comic strip at:
Rock Drive 1.4
Blasphemy!
Well, I mean, in the same way that Atkins is a detriment. Most people will remember 2007 and refute this. His D has worsened, but he is a plus offense player over replacement for a SS, but average as a 3B. We could fine a 3B or CF with his offensive contribution, but SS could be more dicey.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 18, 2009 10:30 PM MDT up reply actions
I'll have a firmer stance on Tulo's defense
come July. It HAS been poking up, but I don’t know if it’s because he dived for a ball or what.
I just know that today, Tulowitzki doesn’t throw out Chin-lung Hu.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 18, 2009 11:52 PM MDT up reply actions
HAVING TAKEN 5 MINUTES TO LOOK AT HIS STATS AGAIN
He looks like his IsoD is starting to grow to what we were seeing in earlier levels of the minors – which is a good thing. For the first several weeks, it was looking pretty AVG driven, and batting averages tend to drop, which would suggest that his OBP drops too, which is clearly no good.
If he continues to progress and remain patient at AAA (as he learns that he can’t just sit on every breaking ball any more, some of them are gonna drop for strikes in AAA, especially more than A+ ball, etc), and continues to steal at the rate he’s going at (20SB, 4CS), do I want his toolset batting in our lineup? Hell Yes, an EYJ-Dex 1-2 would not only wreak havoc in the form that BuntSui did, Dex has better power than Kaz.
But if his defense is garbage, and his Offense + Defense < Clint Barmes’, do I still start him over Barmes just because SBs? Hell no!
I’m all about giving him a shot, I’m just saying we shouldn’t commission the statue of him outside of Coors yet. I’m very, very skeptical about prospects anymore.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 18, 2009 10:32 AM MDT up reply actions
Yeah, I wish some people would read the Pebble Reports,
You know, maybe they would have seen that we mentioned his improving patience and 13% May walk rate just the other day…
:)
My bad, I've just been scouting for Freidrich and Gonzalez news
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 18, 2009 10:38 AM MDT up reply actions
...and I really only look at pitching prospects, Gonzalez, and Gomez/Nelson.
Guys who I firmly believe will be on the big league club and soon.
Eschew Obfuscation!
by Jeff Aberle on May 18, 2009 11:01 AM MDT up reply actions
Defense
Q is the most solid glove guy on the team. He plays a superb 2nd base, and in truthfulness, he fits the number 8 spot in a national league lineup better than anyone else we have because he has no dream of trying to be Babe Ruth. He’s not a long term solution, but he could be a 2009 and possibly a 2010 solution if need be.
I just know that Q comes to bring it every day, first in the field then at the plate. He is the only guy on the present roster we can say that about, and this team needs that guy.
Barmes is a better defensive 2B and SS than Q.
Q may have better hands, but Barmes has the best IF range.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 18, 2009 9:52 AM MDT up reply actions
And Barmes does bring it everyday, too.
I think these two players are part of the redundancy problem with the team. If you want an all out hustle, defensive utility infielder guy, fine, but why keep a left handed/right handed option when neither bats well enough to be an offensive factor off the bench to begin with? Right now, I’d rather keep Barmes.
I like Barmes
I like the guy, he’s got a great release on the ball. He is as quick from field to throw as any fielder in baseball. I would argue that his range to his glove side isn’t what it should be and with Helton’s back issues, there are some problems in the hole.
That being said, Barmes does tend to press offensively. I say he should move because he is a moveable piece and has a value. Q’s value in a return deal is much smaller since he has had less ab’s and never looked like a ROY candidate. Of the players I could envision being worth moving to the franchise:
Hawpe would gain the best return…that leaves Atkins, Spilly, Barmes, Baker, and Quintanilla
Atkins value is in the crapper, Baker is hurt, Spilly can play all of spots and isn’t moving. So which of the two remaining pieces is more likely to return a piece we can use?…Barmes
Why isn't Spills moving?
He’s in his peak years, and his multi-positional ability will make him more desirable to other clubs. Gonzalez can do everything Spilborghs can, potentially.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 18, 2009 2:09 PM MDT up reply actions
If you're gonna make these moves...
…I think you have to call other teams and inquire about their players rather than call and offer up pieces. Then, if you ask for someone and they want Spilly in return, it all depends on whether you think the new player is worth the price.
Rox Girl, you have stimulated thought....
with this manifesto, which is all I’m sure you set out to accomplish. Good effort, and I agree with many of your recommendations. Of course, I don’t agree with all of them, and think you left out some key points.
IMO, the “state of the Rockies” can be altered through the following means:
1. Wait until late August, but at that point the Bros. Monfort should hold a press conference, announcing the replacement of the O’Dowd/Hurdle regime with the DePodesta/Hargrove regime (or replace names with whatever brainy and successful GM/Manager combo you can come up with). The reason you don’t wait until season-end is that new regime needs a month to 6 weeks to evaluate what’s going on here, and to determine which players are keepers and which should be jettisoned. The Giants did something similar with a moribund franchise in 1985, and it led to the Clark/Thompson/Mitchell teams of the late 80’s. Rosen/Craig did wonders for that team.
2. Do NO meaningful trades until the new GM is in place. I don’t trust a lame duck, O’Dowd, to do anything useful on the trade market, and would like to not waste resources or opportunities with this man pulling the trigger on deals. If this means we hold onto Street, Hawpe, Atkins, or others too long (i.e. past the July non-waiver trade deadline), so be it. Let the new GM figure out how to retool.
3. CDI and Smith should be ordered to be everyday players for the rest of the season. This needs to come from the top, i.e. the owners have to meddle a bit. Iannetta is among the top MLB catchers in OPS but ranks around 20th in playing time (plate appearances) due to Hurdle’s penchant to play bench players too much. This would be OK if Torrealba wasn’t so much inferior to CDI, but he is. We all were hoping for a breakout season from Iannetta, and we could still get it if the manager is ordered to give Chris 75 to 80% of the starts (let Yorvit catch Jimenez only).
4. Accept 100 losses as an outcome this season if playing Smith, CDI, Fowler, CarGo etc. (and other kids) more often leads to it. This season is lost, but can be useful in finding out which players are keepers while developing the younger talent.
Short of items 1 through 4, the Monforts should announce by October that the franchise is being put up for sale. There is no reason not to make an extreme makeover with this franchise, and the Monforts have to have the fire in their bellies to do so, or they should do what will be good for the baseball fans along the Front Range. Lead, follow, or get out of the way. The Monforts get one more chance to make things right for us, or they should punt.
I like #3
Smith and Iannetta are mah dawgs
I don’t think we’ll ever see a Rockies catcher catch 140 games though, based on altitude effects on a catcher’s body.
I don’t entirely buy into that, but I’m sure most coaches will.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 18, 2009 10:42 AM MDT up reply actions
I don't think DePodesta is the answer..
He didn’t fare too well in LA throwing money at the JD Drew’s. He needs to show he’s more than a computer analyst.
Check out my Rockies comic strip at:
Rock Drive 1.4
Those Lexus ads
that you may see on the sides of the site will be gone after today.
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Sponsor backing out?
I hadn’t noticed them in the first place
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 18, 2009 8:44 PM MDT up reply actions
Amusing
Generally I’m a negative nancy around here but suddenly I find myself less miserable than everyone else. Maybe that’s because I saw this coming this summer, and I’m not surprised at all by the results to date. Don’t get me wrong, I’m quite disappointed by the results and sad to be “right” (if I am).
A shame that it took this long for many of these points to be raised, I would suggest that many/most of the issues raised here have been problems for some time. Thank god for 21 days, its amazing how much that makes all of this easier to take — while at the same time making certain things doubly frustrating.
In any event, I do appreciate that RG’s column is premised on the concept that baseball (as in anything) can rarely be defined through aggregating and manipulating numbers. A team should be far more than the sum of its parts, and this team is both “less” than the sum of its parts, and those parts are not good enough to begin with (unlike 2007). A failure of both design and leadership.
Let’s just hope somebody out there is listnening. And in the meanwhile, Todd knocking 2000 will make my day whenever it happens. Sometimes its nice to have some old friends around.
I think these issues have been there for some time,
And we’ve raised them separately in the past, but at the same time, I think you have to acknowledge that a lot of the positives that led to the 21 days in 2007 are still in tact as well, and there’s still not enough recognition of how solid that season was from late May on. I think my primary reason for hope for this season was that the Tulo/Stewart/Fowler group could feed off the Gen R group, and use it as a support, but I was too optimistic that management and that older group would relinquish the reins and be a team with the younger group pushing things along. It just hasn’t happened both because the older group is stubborn and the younger group isn’t ready.
A major problem with this club is that everybody still thinks that 2007 can be replicated...
Sometimes, you just have to realize that duplicating a miracle is just that – a miracle. This team needs to trade Hawpe, Cook, and some other “sell-high” guys, and give some younger players the chance to go out there and get after it. Let younger position players such as Fowler, Stewart, Gonzalez, EY Jr., and maybe even Hector Gomez and Chris Nelson go out there and take their lumps everyday. I don’t really suggest doing that with pitchers, though (pitching in Denver, or even Colorado Springs for that matter, before they’re ready could ruin their confidence). After doing all of this (while still placing the same amount, or even more, concentration on developing minor leaguers), the big league club can step back and re-evaluate the situation this offseason.
"What's money? A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and goes to bed at night and in between does what he wants to do." -Bob Dylan
by Bryan Kilpatrick on May 18, 2009 12:58 PM MDT reply actions
The difference between the 2007 team,
which was good all year(except for that 1-9 road trip) and this year’s team, is that in 2007 everybody was doing their part for the team. While Holliday and Tulo got most of the publicity, everybody was playing as well as everyone thought they could.
I think that a lot of the players on this year’s roster have the potential to be better than the 2007 team. Before the year started, I thought that it was all around a really good team that could compete in the wild card race, if not for the division title. But everyone except Smith, Hawpe, and Helton, and De La Rosa, are underperforming what they are able to do. Barmes at Atkins are kind of lost causes at this point.
So if talent and potential are not the issue, what is? This has kind of been discussed ad nauseam, but I’m going to throw my hat into that ring. What the team is doing now is addressing the symptoms, but not the cause.
In terms of the team’s future, it means picking up the best players in the draft, not the cheapest. In the terms of now, it means working on batting stances and swings, pitching mechanics, and improving team morale, which has got to be somewhere near the bottom of the ocean by now.
I know that this is a repeat of what a lot of people have said, and a lot more eloquently to boot, but I just needed to get this rant out.
Barmes is doing exactly what he can do
Get hot, get cold, get hot, get cold, play good defense.
At this point, I don’t think anyone’s being fooled that Clint Barmes is prospect waiting to develop.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 18, 2009 2:10 PM MDT up reply actions
When was the last time the Rockies went "cheap" in a draft slot?
This drives me up a wall. Go ahead and critique them for not selecting the best available player, and if you wish to critique them for not going “expensive” and overpaying recommendations that’s fine too, but they haven’t really gone cheap.Even Casey Weathers, who they had plenty of leverage with was signed close to slot. The Rockies might be stingy in the FA market, but they’re average or slightly better (once you account for them going over late in the draft with guys like Cleary, Robinson, etc..,) when it comes to bonuses.
I defer to your knowledge in this area, but it just seems to me like the rockies are not taking chances in the draft. Risks can turn into busts, but they can also be developed in the farm system and become legitimately great.
What I keep thinking about is the starting pitching. Sure we’ve gotten guys like Cook, Ubaldo or Francis, but it seems like most of our home-grown pitching talent end up being back of the rotation starters or long-relief guys in the pen.
I agree with the Rockies’ policy of not paying truckloads of money on free agents, because their output is only going to go down, but why not spend extra money on drafting and development so you can get someone great before they become superexpensive? Or do expensive draft picks end up being vastly overvalued?
(P.S., this is not a rhetorical question. Most of what I post here is based on my limited perception, not numbers or examples- so if I am completely off base I will eat my words.)
The not taking risks part is very true
And it’s my #1 criticism of recent Rockies drafts, but it has little to do with the money spent and a lot to do with the players selected. Clayton Kershaw and Jarrod Parker were risks, but they didn’t go out of slot to sign their bonuses. Those two players are now the ace type of pitchers the Rockies lack, but the D-backs and Dodgers have.
"Snapshots"
I think I recall something that Billy Beane said in a discussion about Moneyball to the effect that people are guilty of taking too many mental snapshots of a particular player that clouds their judgement. This is can be applicable to the situation that the Rockies are in as a whole (Atkins really tore the cover off of the ball in 2007, he’ll come around!) but I think it’s equally applicable to fans as well. Most of us will never, ever, ever get over selecting Greg Reynolds over Tim Lincecum or Evan Longoria (even in 3 years when Timmy’s mechanics cause him to be a modern-day Mark Prior) because even if other issues existed that caused the Rox to draft Reynolds, past history combined with #6 in your treatise causes most to think monetary compensation to be the primary issue. That “snapshot” is all fans will ever need to justify folks talking about “cheaping out” in drafts.
If you’re not going to pay your stars (and don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with the Rox trading Holliday, Jennings or whomever; I think that is how teams should operate as it constantly re-stocks the farm system), you should take those savings and apply it to drafting those deemed "undraftable.
Was the 2007 team really so different?
Their record after 36 games: 15-21. One game ahead of the current jokers!
The 50-50 RS/RA split of this year’s team seems to suggest it’s a little more complicated than whose playing below expectations. Esp. 36 games in, some players are bound to be playing above career norms/expectations, some below. 3 of the 4 you named are playing far above and balance out some of the underachievers. Tulo and Iannetta have rebounded from bad starts. I wouldn’t know what to expect out of Helton and Fowler. Having his best year since 2007 seems pretty good for Helton, considering his back problem.
The most befuddling thing seems to be the inconsistency and bad results in the close ones. It’s been a while since I ran through all those, but it seems like lots of players have had a hand in those…bullpen blowups, cold hitting, inning-ending GIDPs when they managed to produce RISP’s, and yup, managerial oddities. This problem seems harder to fix.
All these little things adding up is part of why I see the 2009 season as intractable
That and the fact that not only are the Dodgers strong, but multiple teams in the Central as well as both the Mets and Phillies again, which just adds up to too many teams to overcome. Especially when we seem unable to beat even the inferior portions of the East or Central. The fact that we’re winning big in games against weaker opposition is a good sign for the future as the younger parts develop, but there still seems to be a lack of quality in broad sections of the team even after accounting for the underachievement of some.
I would like
to see them start playing a good defense again. A good defense makes the game fun for the fans, easy on the pitchers (for the most part), and cuts down on an opponents run scoring ability. They did this in the past and this year they are not doing it very well.
"There are three things in my life which I really love: God, my family, and baseball. The only problem - once baseball season starts, I change the order around a bit." ~Al Gallagher, 1971
JFK
Way late on commenting
because I can’t post from work, but compliments to RoxGirl on some good, in-depth insight. Really enjoyed reading it this morning.
My perspective/2 cents’ worth:
1. The Rockies, whether it’s O’Dowd or the Montforts, are too hesisant to part with mid-level players. Barmes, Quintanilla, Baker, Smith, Spillborghs, Atkins (2009 version). They seem to be afraid that if they use such players as trade bait, it’ll come back to bite them later. That’s always possible, but sitting on too many such players for too long creates logjams & doesn’t give any of them the chance to play consistently at one position for half-a-season or more to show what they can do. There have been too many logjams at too many positions (3B, 2B, outfield) for too long. That’s not working, and it’s time to try something different, even at the risk of someone who’s dealt playing well elsewhere.
2. My “other team” is the Astros, though I’m transitioning from a lifetime of frustration with them to the Rockies, in preparation for a retirement move to Colo. in a couple of years. The Rockies have paralleled the Astros in some respects: one super-hot finish to a season (2005 Astros, 2007 Rockies), resulting in the only World Series appearance for both teams, with neither team likely to return to the WS anytime soon.. The Astros thought they had the young core of players for the future (Ensberg, a 2005 AllStar, Lane, Burke), only to see them flame out quickly in future years. They clung too long to the belief that a brief period of magic could be repeated, then desperately added an expensive free agent (Lee) & traded the top prospects of their farm system for limited-time veterans (Hirsh, Buchholz, Taveras for Jennings, 5 players for Tejada). Result: an old, fading team with a bankrupt farm system. That doesn’t work. The trick is recognizing either the decline or limited potential of expendable players before opposing teams do & trading when they have value. Don’t keep them around for 2 years hoping for a return to temporary performance levels during a late-season miracle, while their trade values drop. I’m afraid the Rox may have already done that, but maybe it’s not too late. If Atkins can get on a mini-hot streak, trade him. If a contending team loses a key infielder to injury in late June or early July, trade Baker or Barmes or Q for a minor league pitching prospect. Don’t try to hang onto the 2007 cast forever.
RoxGirl is right. The future core has to come from the farm system. Clear out the logjams & start moving them up by mid-season unless there’s an immediate, dramatic turnaround in the performance of the present roster. Which looks highly unlikely.
No records in the last 10 years should count.
Great post
I think that Hurdle going isn’t going to make the team better, just a sign of some commitment.
Trading Hawpe at the AS break would be a good move Cargo get half a season at AAA and then plays right. You won’t re-sign Spilly now that Boras is involved so move him out. I’m afraid Atkins is only going to bring some value if paired with another player like Barmes or Baker, but we are killing Stewart with whats happening. I like Murton and whle trading him makes sense having him be the 4th OF would be my first choice.
Jimenez is an ACE by the end of this year, he can’t go anywhere. He can be a number one. Cook is a 3 now in my book and maybe a 4, he can eat innings but he will be a 13-11 guy.
At this point I’m giving up on this season, and change needs to happen because the Dodgers have become a 92-95 win team so making the playoff with 85 wins isn’t going to happen.
Fowler
Tulo
Smith/Murton
Helton
Stewart
Ianetta
Cargo
2b
P
Jimenez
DLR
Chacin
Francis
Smith
2011 Lineup
What I would do
I am a new poster but have been a regular visitor here since sometime in 2006. First of all, a little about me. My name is Randy. I am almost 28 and from Wyoming. I’ve been to at least a dozen Rockies games since their inception in 1993 and a couple Spring Trainings. I haven’t been to a Rockies game though since Game 3 of the 2007 World Series (and don’t really care to see another one for the time-being until changes are made!) I’ll try to post my thoughts on things every day but probably won’t in the game threads as I like to watch the game and pay attention to it so we’ll see how it goes.
Now enough about me. I thoughly enjoyed reading this article…well done Rox Girl! I like seeing what everyone else would do to change this ballclub into a more well-rounded, competitive team. I’ve been thinking about this a lot throughout the day (and yes I am up late writing this!) What I’ve come up with will probably not make them a contender in 2009, but what I think will help them in salary relief, helping to rebuild some of the minor leagues, and help them to be more competitive in the next few years. I’m not going to go into what I think should happen after this season, but what I think should happen in the next couple months. So with that in mind, here’s how I would fix the Rockies (in order):
1. Start Ian Stewart at 3B every day, sending Garrett Atkins to the bench.
2. Start Seth Smith in LF mostly every day, sending Ryan Spilborghs to the bench.
3. Fire the manager Clint Hurdle and the pitching coach Bob Apodaca. Promote Jim Tracy to manager, hire Jim Colborn as his pitching coach, and hire a bench coach (Vinny Castilla?). Colborn was his pitching coach from 2000-2007 with the Dodgers and the Pirates. I’m not sure if he would be available, but that would be my pick.
4. Stay consistant with the line-up! Yes you’ll have to give days off to players once in a while, but for the most part, keep the same players on the field and in the same batting order.
5. Either fire or extend a contract to Dan O’Dowd. (I prefer to fire him, but I agree with Rox Girl in her intial article where she said that a general manager that’s worrying about his job security will always lean to make moves that have more immediate benefit, and sometimes this won’t be in the best interest of the franchise at that level of decision making.) If fire, hire a new one ASAP!
6. When Ryan Speier is ready to return from the DL, reinstate him and demote Manuel Corpas to AAA.
7. When Franklin Morales is ready to return from the DL, reinstate him and move Jason Hammel to the bullpen as the long-man and release Matt Belisle.
8. When Matt Daley is ready to return from the DL, reinstate him and demote either Randy Flores or Joel Peralta to AAA (whichever is not performing like they should).
9. Release/trade Omar Quintanilla and recall Jonathan Herrera.
10. Draft the best players available, not who you think you can sign or who fits the organization’s needs. This has been a problem in recent years!
11. When Jeff Baker is ready to return from the DL, release or trade him.
12. When Taylor Buchholtz is ready to return from the DL, reinstate him (making him the set-up man) and demote either Randy Flores or Joel Peralta (whichever is left from the Daley reinstatement).
13. Work on trading Garrett Atkins, Jason Marquis, Brad Hawpe, Clint Barmes, and Yorvit Torrealba. Replace Atkins with Christian Colonel; Marquis with Jason Hirsh; Hawpe with Carlos Gonzalez (making him the everyday rightfielder); Barmes with Eric Young Jr. (making him the everyday second baseman); Torrealba with Sal Fasano.
Therefore, my roster would look like this:
LINE-UP:
CF – Dexter Fowler (S)
SS – Troy Tulowitzki
1B – Todd Helton (L)
3B – Ian Stewart (L)
C – Chris Iannetta
LF – Seth Smith (L)
RF – Carlos Gonzalez (L)
2B – Eric Young Jr. (S)
BENCH:
C – Sal Fasano
2B/SS – Jonathan Herrera (S)
1B/3B – Christian Colonel
OF – Ryan Spilborghs
OF – Matt Murton
ROTATION:
SP1 – Aaron Cook
SP2 – Ubaldo Jimenez
SP3 – Jorge de la Rosa (L)
SP4 – Jason Hirsh
SP5 – Franklin Morales (L)
BULLPEN:
LR – Jason Hammel
RP – Ryan Speier
RP – Matt Daley
RP – Alan Embree (L)
RP – Jason Grilli
SU – Taylor Buchholtz
CL – Huston Street
I think there are 6 players that are untouchable – just this roster that I have constructed, not the minors. Those are Iannetta, Tulowitzki, Stewart, Fowler, Jimenez, and Morales. There are a few that are close to untouchable to me like Gonzalez, Young, Cook, and Buchholtz.
Welcome
And good first post. Typically, we put posts this long as FanPosts, but given the long-winded nature of this discussion thread, it was more or less appropriate.
Couple questions I’d like your take on:
1. What benefit does Johnny Herrera provide to the team that Quintanilla doesn’t?
2. Why is Cook untouchable? He’s good, but overall unremarkable, and could fetch a decent return at the deadline.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 19, 2009 9:44 AM MDT up reply actions
Yeah this was longer than I had planned.
1. I know there isn’t much of a difference but I said Herrera because he is cheaper (not very much though) and he deserves another shot back up in the bigs. If Young struggles, give Herrera some time there. It couldn’t hurt. But you need someone who could fill-in at 2B or SS with Barmes and Q gone.
2. I know he wouldn’t be most teams’ ace, but with Francis out for the year, Marquis gone, and the amount of #4-#5 pitchers the Rockies have stockpiled, the Rockies should hang on to him. I’m not saying keep him beyond this year. But of course if the Rockies get overwhelmed with a multiple player trade, the Rockies should look into it. I’m just saying for the lack of top starters this season. After this year, look into trading him.
Ah
1. Yeah, there’s a lot of advocacy for just giving whoever a “chance” at 2B, and it’s all good and fine, I just don’t think we’ll gain much over Barmes. I acknowledge that if EYJ’s toolset shows up and he becomes like his daddy, oh man you all just watch the hell out.
Interestingly enough, EYS (from 2002-retirement) was a -9.0 runs player for a full season.
2. I thought you were saying Cook untouchable forever and ever amen. Ok I understand now.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 19, 2009 1:07 PM MDT up reply actions


































