Thursday Rockpile: The writing's on the wall after Hurdle uses Tulowitzki as whipping boy
"Everybody thinks that today is the day that it will turn around," Rockies third baseman Garrett Atkins said. "But when you can't even keep it close, it's frustrating."
The good news for the Rockies organization and its fans is that, as Troy E. Renck implies in the article the above Atkins quote was taken from, days like yesterday, weeks like this one, make it more likely that real significant change takes place. As of last night, the Rockies are 5-18 in May road games over the last two seasons after going 9-5 on the road in May in 2007. For those still suggesting patience, that was one of the many signs that was evident with that team that suggested a comeback was feasible that seem to be absent this year.
Clint Hurdle's latest ploy to get the team to show life actually could turn out to be the straw that breaks the camel's back. By using Troy Tulowitzki as an example, benching his shortstop to prove a point about patience, the move was more William Bligh than Thomas Cochrane, and while Tulo was a good soldier and accepted his fate, the message that the team received probably wasn't the one intended. This seems desperate and somewhat despotic to me, and apparently Tulo:
"It just feels like I am the guy who has to wear it for everybody. Which is fine. I will do that," Tulowitzki said. "I keep saying he's the manager. And we have to do what he says if we want to play."
The issue here: Hurdle's correct that Tulo's got to be a leader on the team in this and all things, but the punishment puts the shortstop in a submissive role as a model transgressor. It's not a healthy situation as the message winds up being that there is no on field leader, just one man on the bench whose rule is law.
At this point, letting Hurdle continue as bench manager no longer appears feasible. The players will say what they feel they have to, but the separation from management is evident.
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Though it's not vocalized to the public
I feel that the players no longer believe in Clint. I think we have reached that point where a change would be best for everyone involved.
It’s definitely not the best situation, but it has to be done.
Tulo benching
Benching Tulo was an act that smacks of desperation… the last futile grasp at credibility and control from a manager who is losing it by the day.
I honestly thought that a potential saving grace for this season would be the players responding to the threat of Hurdle losing his job. My impression was that they liked playing for him, and appreciated his loyalty and candor. Let’s just say I’m not getting that impression anymore. Now I believe that this team is just going through the motions in playing out Hurdle’s tenure, and once O’Dowd does an Old Yeller on him, it might free the players to relax and just play.
I watched the game last night, and while I was trying to figure out why, I think I came across the answer: I like the players. I like watching Hawpe and Helton and Tulo and Fowler. I like to watch Ubaldo and Cook and De La Rosa pitch (well, I didn’t like watching JDLR pitch last night – I thought he was going to punch Tim Tschida, and I would have thought it justified). Though the pursuit of winning has been largely futile this year, I still enjoy watching them try, as ridiculous as that sounds.
Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.
It's funny you say that....
Because that’s something I’ve tried to do in the past few days. A lot of these guys are my favorite players, so if I just watch the games to watch them, it’s so much less painful than if I have a deep seated interest in the success of the franchise.
Seems to me
that the team may be in the process of quitting on him, and benching Tulo was the most sure fire way to ensure that they do quit on him.
"Better move your rental cars, I am about to take BP."
-Glendon Rusch
Wow. Hurdle blew that one.
I agree with the general sentiment expressed here. Having lost the fans, he’s now in the process of losing the players. Oh yeah.
Come on front office. Bite the bullet. As Rox Girl says, sticking fingers and toes on a dead body won’t bring it back to life.
I love Greg Reynolds and I may be slightly ashamed to admit it.
Peavy, Ortiz etc
Clearly the “for sale” sign is now open in the trade market. I think the Red Sox hold all of the trading chips as they have pitchers like Bucholtz and Bowden to dangle in order to get a big bat to replace the seemingly done David Ortiz. Brad Hawpe fits that bill perfectly. If the Mets continue to experience a power outage they might be interested as well, along with the Cubs and maybe the Braves. But given the possibility that a few teams are likely to sell similar players like the Indians with V Mart and As with Holliday, I think its imperative that if we want to move players we try to do it sooner rather than later. Otherwise you could see a scenario similar to the free agent market in January where there is a supply/demand imbalance driving down prices.
I should also mention
that if A Gon were to made available by the Pads I think he vaults to the top the of list in terms of bats.
I agree with this
Dan has a tendency to sit on players too long, missing their highest value (the problem he had with Holliday and Atkins). Right now, Hawpe is sitting at his highest value. If a team offered a bluechip pitcher like Buchholz, Dan should be all over it. It is a bit of a gamble, because you have to assume that Gonzalez will continue to hit in the bigs, but it’s a gamble that needs to be done.
Shipping Hawpe out for a good return, and dumping the salary of Atkins would be a good idea now. We can use the money saved and invest it into the draft and Latin free agent class (some one like this kid )
Seems unlikely
Esp. in the case of the Red Sox—it’s hard to see Hawpe being a long-term solution for them. Teams are very reluctant to move high end pitching prospects. Look what the White Sox are getting in return for one (plus an apparently lesser pitching prospect).
I’d guess if Hawpe can bring back a high ceiling pitcher, it would be one from a lower level (A/high A), thus, w/greater risk.
We might have to include
McKenry or Rosario if we want top shelf pitching from the Red Sox, as they are in need of a catcher for the future.
Mock draft
For you Baseball Prospectus subscribers… there’s a mock draft posted over there today that has the Rockies selecting former Missouri RHP Aaron Crow with the 11th overall pick and Indiana RHP Eric Arnett with the 32nd pick.
Brief snippets from the article:
He’s… an impressive talent who could go higher than this, but his power arm with sink would fit in well at Colorado.
Arnett finally seems to have harnessed his plus fastball with excellent late life, while showing a solid slider and changeup to go with a beefy 6-foot-5 frame that provides plenty of stamina.
Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.
Link
Is here – my bad – again, BP subscribers only.
Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.
By using Troy Tulowitzki as an example, benching his shortstop to prove a point about patience the move was more William Bligh than Thomas Cochrane, and while Tulo was a good soldier and accepted his fate, the message that the team received probably wasn’t the one intended.
Thomas Cochrane? Heck…. he’s not even Zefram Cochrane.
Jim Zorn, 55. Sean Miller, 40. AJ Hinch, 34. Notice a pattern here?
Because he split infinitives,
which Zefram didn’t do.
"If we never try, we shall never succeed." - Abraham Lincoln
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
Then again,
he’s also the only person to ever say “star trek”.
Jim Zorn, 55. Sean Miller, 40. AJ Hinch, 34. Notice a pattern here?
by DbacksSkins on May 21, 2009 10:04 AM MDT up reply actions
It just keeps getting worse and worse
I thought that game against the Pirates was rock bottom, but when the manager Benches one of his best players for swinging at the first pitch (which wasn’t a bad pitch to swing at), thats when it shows that he’s lost it.
That move alone probably made him loose any repsect the players had for him, and you can see it in the quotes by Atkins and Tulo. I really hope Hurdle doesn’t make it back to Coors Field with his job, but knowing this franchise he probably will get canned in October, after his contract runs out.
What a joke.
Presumming...
that Hurdle has sealed his fate, would it be better to slap the Interim tag on Baylor or Tracy and spend quality time doing a search or find someone first then let Hurdle go?
Seems to me that if we go with the later, DOD gets a repreive and maybe an extention. If we use a stop gap – then I think DOD goes and we get a new GM and he gets to pick his guy.
TGFPR!!
I would like to see
Baylor get a chance again. I am planning on doing a fanpost later on to look at our options for a new manager, but will wait until tonight.
Hurdle Needs To Go
I am sure benching Tulo just riled up the players and turned them against the manager. That was just dumb. It will also cause hitters to have fear at the plate (do I swing at this fastball right down the middle that I can probably hit out but risk being benched?).
Hurdle needs to have a consistent lineup. Atkins needs to play everyday because he will get hot, he always does and then they can trade him for a young player who can help next year and then Stewart can play everyday the last couple of months this season to work out all the problems he has so that he will be ready to be a big time producer next year.
Great Point
About benching Tulo shows that there is no leader on the field, just Hurdle on the bench. Hurdle is a great man, I don’t think anyone doubts that, and until recently I advocated keeping him, but his time has come and it is so evident now that the owners need to make a move. Please not Baylor though….that man knows how to kill a bullpen.
Check out my website...www.rockiesreview.com
I don't even know what to say....
Maybe I should make a fan post about this or incorporate it into a story, but I’ll just let it fly here.
I love this team; like Franchise26 and Squeaky stated above, I’ll always find myself watching them, no matter how downright awful they are as a team/franchise/organization/whatever, because they have become my favorite major league baseball players, and I just enjoy watching them. However, seeing a lot of them play with absoultely no emotion – no anger, rage, excitement, fire or anything else that could be used to describe it – really does not do it for me. Case in point – Friday night in Pittsburgh in the ninth inning during what would turn out to be a rare Rockies victory, Matt Capps nearly knocked Chris Iannetta to the ground while shoving him during a play in which he tagged Iannetta out in front of first base. Iannetta was clearly pissed, shouted some words in the direction of Capps, stormed into the dugout and threw his helmet, and generally looked like a dude who was about to lose it. I honestly thought this team was going to make a turn in the right direction at that exact moment. I thought that early in the next game, somebody would throw a purpose pitch to let the Pirates (and everybody else) know that the Rockies were not going to tolerate being pushed around. Well, guess what? It didn’t happen; the team continued to play like they just don’t give a rat’s ass about the outcome of the game and didn’t care enough to show other teams that they will push back. Personally (and this probably sounds cliche), I blame Hurdle only about 50% on this one; the other 50% falls on either the players or the organization as a whole for not having an on-field leader to take these kinds of matters into their hands. Though Jorge De La Rosa looked like a mad man last night, he still hardly showed the emotion that he should have shown while getting shafted by the umpires; Hurdle should take most of the blame as well, as it was a perfect spot to go get in somebody’s face and try to fire up his squad.
Regardless of what happens, I will always love this team and will continue to watch them, spend time and money on them, etc. However, I get a sickening feeling when I think about the fact that most of these players and coaches do not seem to be passionate about what they are doing. Part of that is just the landscape of professional sports, but a large chunk of it has to do with the guy who is running the product on the field, and anything leftover is the responsibility of the front office.
Come on Rockies, GET IT TOGETHER!
"What's money? A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and goes to bed at night and in between does what he wants to do." -Bob Dylan
by Bryan Kilpatrick on May 21, 2009 11:24 AM MDT reply actions
You've said it so well
There’s really nothing more to say. I love the Colorado Rockies and always will. Some of my all time favorite players are on this team right now. Ten years from now, if we still can’t win, I’m sure some of my favorite players of that time will be on the team.
But the club has reached a point where, between the composition of the roster, and the composition of the coaching staff, they cannot and will not be a winning ballclub. Hurdle has lost the locker room, or is losing it. It’s time to end the charade, thank him for his many years of service, and move on. However, I don’t see either Baylor or Tracy being the answer beyond this year, either.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
Ianneta
I remember that moment with CDI. I was yelling at the TV and I almost spilled my beer I was so mad. I was even more frustrated that it seemed like only CDI and I were upset. No one else in the dugout seemed to care, which was frustrating. Like yourself, I was hoping that would spark the team.
Fire Hurdle, Baylor as interim, Look for an aggressive manager that wants to provide consistency yet be aggressive at the right times.
Just my opinion.
Eric
Too painful now...
Though, the prevailing opinion ‘round here was always for a Hurdle firing, I stayed wholeheartedly in the “keep him” camp. I’m afraid the time has come, now, however to let him go. I’m not sure if firing Hurdle will turn this thing around but keeping Clint in place is not going to work. It’s sad because I really like the guy but we’ve just got no better option at this point. Either Don Baylor or Jim Tracy would be feasable options at this point.
Time to Go
A lame excuse for benching tulo. Opting to put in Atkins and Spilly against a tough righty when Steart and Smith have clearly out played each of them. Giving up 10 and 9 run innings in less than a week. Not jumping all over the ump and kicking some dirt to protect his pitcher.
The players are flat and so is the management. I doubt the Monforts will do what needs to be done, but a solid injection of all new personell shouls come in. This group came in to save Hurdle, and it has failed. I posted it the other day, and I still think the guy we should try to grab is Ryne-o. We need a face people now, and someone who will bring out the best in Tulo, Stewart and Ianetta. He has moved up the ranks and deserves a chance, I think we should give it to him. I’m sure it would pick up some fanfare too.
I am uncertain as to how he has handled pitching, but I would trust he has a name in his back pocket. I’m sure he would like the Cubs job, but he won’t get it as long as they are contending.
New Manager
Any GM will insist that they have control and that they are allowed to bring in their own people, and that especially includes the manager. So until O’Dowd is fired, or extended (gawd, they couldn’t could they? I mean it’s the GM’s responsibility to assemble the talent on the field) no manager can be more then “interim” or temporary.
My Solution: A fan gets to manage the Rockies for a day. Requirements are the fan has to have tickets to that game. The Rockies will draw the winning ticket and notify the winner that they have won, “manager for a game!” contest.
It will sell tickets, generate fan and media interest….and couldn’t hurt the team worse. I mean a monkey could pull out names of hat and get 100 loss season, which is what we have already going on.
Eh....
it took 3+ years for Josh Byrnes to fire Bob Melvin? (BoMel was hired before the ’05 season, JByrnes after)
Jim Zorn, 55. Sean Miller, 40. AJ Hinch, 34. Notice a pattern here?
You haven't
been around in a while. It’s kind of weird to see you back, but then again I’m in and out as well.
"We made too many wrong mistakes." ~Yogi Berra
"The ballplayer who loses his head, who can't keep his cool, is worse than no ballplayer at all." ~Lou Gehrig
JFK
I come and go. Like Gandalf.
Actually, I missed like 2 or 3 GDTs in a row at the ’Pit this weekend.
Jim Zorn, 55. Sean Miller, 40. AJ Hinch, 34. Notice a pattern here?
Too bad Hurdle can't bench himself as manager, then there would be a message
Even though I am all for getting rid of this hack manager, I fear that the Rockies wil find someone just as incompetent to replace him with, until the Monforts sell this franchise to an owner that actually gives a damn about the product on the field, then this will be our fate for years to come.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
You still on that "Hire Cito Gaston!" bandwagon?
Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.
What do you want the Monforts or any new owner to do specifically ?
Here’s all an owner is suppose to do:
1) set a tone of leadership and excellence
by mainly 2) Hiring a quality General Manager, that demands excellence and makes good decision in personnel and budgets.
3) don’t take too much profit/money out of the organization
That’s it. The owners are not required to pay money out of their pocket to cover salaries and payroll for players. The Rockies are not holding money back. In fact they are going to be very close to being in the RED and losing money this year. The Rockies in fact had 2 cash calls just a few years ago. (a cash call is when a team/business is broke, and it has to call in the owners (there are a lot more than just the Monforts) and they have to pony up money) If the Rockies go too far in the Red and have another cash call, well….that would be apocalyptic-ly bad.
No it wouldn't
I guarantee you that the Rockies will have positive cash flow this year. We don’t see the books so take that with a grain of salt if you’d like, but due to revenue-sharing and some guaranteed payments (from Fox Sports, etc.), I believe the franchise will do just fine. If it were "apocalyptically bad", believe me, the Monforts would put the team on the market faster than you can say the word "Craigslist"!
They are close to being in the Red
as I know for a fact from a friend of a friend that discussions were held on how to cut payroll this summer in the front office in both food and ticket sales.
And yes, if they have a 3rd cash call, there will be a lot of smaller % owners will have to be bought out.
At one point
I worked for Kroenke Sports. For both the Nuggets and Avalanche franchises, each team would have to make the playoffs, as a general rule, in order for the franchise to stay in the black. Now granted the economics of each sport and league are vastly different – but I imagine that the Rockies are awfully similar.
"Better move your rental cars, I am about to take BP."
-Glendon Rusch
If that's true,
then how the Hell are the Rockies still in business?
Jim Zorn, 55. Sean Miller, 40. AJ Hinch, 34. Notice a pattern here?
Same way the Pirates are, I'd imagine.
Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.
Again
the economics of baseball are probably a lot different than basketball for instance. 81 vs 41 home games, revenue sharing etc…I would venture to guess that it is more like meeting a certain attendance threshold (assuming a certain level of spending at the game) – in which case making the playoffs might not be critical. Anyway – my point was that some teams have been operating in the red for years to try and win. John Schuerholz’s biography has a great explaination about when spending got out of hand for the Braves a few years ago – and they finally said no and cut back to a level that the baseball business could support. I’m rambling now.
"Better move your rental cars, I am about to take BP."
-Glendon Rusch
I worked for a minor league
basketball team (CBA) when I first came out of college. Their model was different. The Budget was based on season tickets sold, plus a small assumed walk up per game above the season tickets (I wanna say 5%..but it might have been 10%). Big walk up crowds were profit, and extra, the playoffs were extra money but not that much due to the extra travel costs (it was the CBA, and minor league basketball).
Is Pat Bowlen a Baseball fan?
Stan Kroenke?
KROENKE IS NOT BUYING THE ROCKIES
I will GUARANTEE you this. The guy already owns the Nuggets, Avalanche, Rapids, and all the other Pepsi Center tenants. And he just sunk about 400 million into some soccer team in Europe (don’t know which one, who cares, soccer is stupid.) If there’s money there for the Rockies, he’s not going to magically give us a Yankee-level payroll anyway, so I don’t know why this stupid pipe dream continues to have any legs.
Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.
How about Gillett?
he is about to be shown the door at Liverpool, and he could own the Rockies for a lot less.Of course he’s a terrible owner, but he is richer than the Monforts.
I don't want a crappy owner who is rich
A 100 million dollar payroll gets you exactly squat if the guy handling the money isn’t smart. If we’re getting a new ownership – and we’re not, but let’s say we were – I wouldn’t give a damn about the payroll as much as I’d care about money being spent on fortifying player development, being competitive on the islands and overseas, and a willingness to fire the people they hire even if they become BFF. And other than the last one, the Rockies are pretty OK on those fronts.
Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.
Just throwing out names
As far as a new manager I’m for bringing Bobby Valentine back to the states
I didn't mean to rip you, sorry
It kinda came out that way though – I’m no good at playing ‘internet jackass’. My apologies – I just get a little tired of the Kroenke myth, which is perpetuated by the Woody Paiges of the world.
Bobby V as manager… I don’t know, I know they love him in Japan, but I really don’t want a retread.
Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.
No worries
I hadn’t heard the Kroenke myth before, at least not in a serious discussion.
Thought of Bobby V as someone to bring some passion and attitude to the clubhouse coupled with the fact he knows how to manage in the national league with some success.
Hell he may not even want to come back.
He DOESN'T want to come back.
He’s treated like a baseball deity in Japan. He’s been offered a few managerial positions by US teams, and he’s turned them all down.
There was an article about this a year or two ago, I think in SI.
Jim Zorn, 55. Sean Miller, 40. AJ Hinch, 34. Notice a pattern here?
I don't understand your sig.
Of course, that may also be because I only know who AJ Hinch is, not the other two.
Jim Zorn, head coach of the Redskins,
was hired in Jan 08. Sean Miller, head coach of Wildcats basketball, was hired in April 09. Hinch was hired in May 09.
At this point, I’m expecting John Thompson III to be fired and replaced by a 28 year old.
(These are all teams I support)
Jim Zorn, 55. Sean Miller, 40. AJ Hinch, 34. Notice a pattern here?
Ah, okay.
So eventually one of your teams will be hiring a 12-year-old? Is that where things are headed?
Although,
it looks like he might soon be out of the job, much to the chagrin of Marines fans.
Jim Zorn, 55. Sean Miller, 40. AJ Hinch, 34. Notice a pattern here?
Bobby V.
A part of me would like to suggest him over a younger guy like Sanberg but a couple of things really make him a really bad fit:
1. He likes the limelight too much, he’s not going anywhere outside a top 5 media market.
2. His history is solid with hitters and awful with pitchers…he comes from the same school of pitching as Apadoca and I think a total philosophical change is needed.
3. He’s a an American league style manager and you can forget any emphasis on defense, moving guys over… don’t think that looks like a fit
On the plus side, he’s does a great job with sports bars.
Man, Rox Girl stole my joke from the caption contest in a game thread a wile back.
Listen, this signature line is a big part of who I am.
by frightened inmate #2 on May 21, 2009 3:43 PM MDT reply actions
Sorry for the unintended theft,
It’s a situation of great minds thinking alike, but apparently mine being somewhat delayed and less great.
Is cool
it wasn’t exactly 7 words you can’t say on television
Listen, this signature line is a big part of who I am.
by frightened inmate #2 on May 21, 2009 5:19 PM MDT up reply actions




































