Tuesday Rockpile: Amidst the rubble rises the ToddFather
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 26, 2009 7:45 AM MDT
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PrintIf last night's debacle gave you a headache, you're not the only one. Though it was a celebration for our veteran Todd Helton and memorial for nation's veterans, it spun wildly out of control. I can't blame Todd Helton, who left after four innings with apparently his first migraine headache.
It was the fifth and sixth time the Rockies gave up 5 or more in an inning, and the day's festivites soon turned to boos. What a day.
Still, the ToddFather is having a remarkable turnaround in his own right from back surgery, which Tracy Ringolsby touched on yesterday for FoxSports. I felt this offseason that he would surprise some people with his success coming off the surgery, especially after Spring Training, but I didn't expect him to be pushing a .400 wOBA.
Troy E. Renck answers several questions in his latest mailbag. Highlights:
- Franklin Morales will throw a simulated game today as is about three weeks away, and "if Jorge De La Rosa doesn't get on track soon, he could be the odd man out." Morales will begin a rehab assignment if things go well.
- "Atkins has been the Rockies' most consistent hitter for the better part of four seasons." I'm assuming that "consistent" adjective refers to the downward slope of his productivity.
- Helton told Renck re: the 2,000th hit: "You're right, it's pretty (darn) cool."
- He expects Carlos Gonzalez to be called up in 1-5 weeks.
Patrick Saunders features CarGo in his latest column, stating basically that the outfielder has otherworldly talent and very solid AAA production, but is blocked by three lefty OFs and that he needs to lay off the "cruise control" he seems to like. Despite some "free CarGo" chants," he seems to have the right idea
"I tell myself not to rush because I know that right time is going to come," he said. "I am taking this time in the minor leagues to try and get better. When I get my next chance to go up to the big leagues, I want to be really good."
Speaking of personal drive, Yorvit Torrealba believes he needs to perform a lot better and "be ready [to] find a way to get it done" in Chris Iannetta's absence.
Jack Etkin gives an injury report: Greg Smith pitched Sunday in a AAA rehab start and initial reports were great, but it turns out he was forced to leave due to shoulder stiffness after just 65 pitches, so we're still in wait-and-see mode with him. Taylor Buchholz threw 35 pitches in a bullpen session Sunday, will throw another tomorrow, and could face hitters later in the week. Jeff Baker is seeing the doctor that has operated on his wrist in the past. He is eligible to return June 27.
As a side note: The Rockies are now 1-4 in games following consecutive wis. Their last and only 3-game winning streak came by beating Dan Haren, Doug Davis and Cole Hamels on the way to that 3-1 start.
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CarGo
will be called up to do what? sit on the bench? Play Left field? Fowler has adjusted nicely lately and his struggles so far has been adjusting to major league pitching…which he can’t adjust to in the minors. He needs to play. Hawpe has been our best hitter so far.
Unless Gonzales can play 2nd (see the Skip Shumaker experiment) or pitch out of the pen, than there is no reason to rush him to the majors, as he’s young, and his upside, means he needs to be playing regularly.
Players that could use some time in the minors along side CarGo: Barmes, Tulowitzki, Stewart, Atkins, and most of the pen not named Flores (wow) and Street….um I think I just ran the Rockies outta players.
Hey it can happen
I was at a game this weekend and they had a left at 2B – Granted it was a little league game.
TGFPR!!
Heh
Yeah, when I was 9, I was in a Little League game when my coach decided to put his son (a lefty) at 3B.
The Rox need to go young and soon to make this watchable
I know Hawpe has been our best hitter, no argument there, other than maybe Helton. However, as we’ve all said before the sooner we find a trading partner the better. He has value, so now is the time and CarGo is ready. He had another good game yesterday, including an HR. I know it might be hard to trade Hawpe until we get closer to the AS Break, but as soon as that is an option lets do it. Atkins and Stew are awful right now, but that doesn’t stop me from wanting to see Stew get regular AB’s and have Atkins sent packing for any bit of his salary we can get back in return. What happened to Atkins sitting by the way, I guess that meant for a game or 2, maybe thats what an extended break means these days.
As far as Barmes and Tulo, I have to say I disagree w/ you there. Tulo is great defensively and starting to come around w/ the bat, in his last 15 games he is hitting .296 and has an OBP of .387. Barmes has also played much better lately and in his last 10 games he is hitting .281 w/ an OBP of .425. I have not been a Barmes fan, but he has looked better lately and for now deserves the spot. EYJ has cooled lately and might need a little more time in AAA. I think McCoy may be an option at 2B or 3B if things don’t get better soon.
I think we are also suffering from a problem in LF. Spilly and Smith have not been very good lately, again maybe Hurdle needs to ride one of them longer.
I do agree that some changes need to be made though and get some young guys up and playing.
It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.
Ya but
If certain people here had things their way, they would trade Tulowiztki for Christian Guzman if given the chance, due to the fact that Tulo is “uncoachable” and “will never exceed the numbers he had in 07” and we need to dump him the first chance we get.
Agreed with everything else you said though.
I'm the only one banging the trade Tulo drum
and this week was the final straw for me. He’s now stepping to the visitor’s dug out now when he swings. He’s in his 3rd full season in the majors, and he doesn’t have a consistent swing and mechanics. If it’s not his stance, it’s his swing. At a certain point I’d say he’s not going to get it. Personally I think at the very least he should be sent down to AAA. He’s not above the team, or coaching.
But it won’t be done. He’s a superstar! He has his own chant! The fans know who he is cause the can do his chant. And the front office isn’t going to do anything, but swap out a few marginal bull pen arms for a few washed up, marginal bull pen arms.
I’d trade Tulo, and 2 first round picks to Washington for their #1 pick right now.
Too bad
there’s no draft pick trading in MLB. But even the Nationals aren’t stupid enough to trade Strasburg.
ehhhhh
I want to agree with you, but he’s OPSing like .745 right now, his UZR is slightly below average, and his adjusted wOBA shows him as about 3% below average.
If he doesn’t turn things around, I might be on board with moving him. His defensive range seems to be slipping, he’s even flubbing more balls (though in terms of actual errors, he’s still above average), and his bat – while showing a much-improved Eye – is still very below what he’s capable of.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 26, 2009 12:14 PM MDT up reply actions
IMO the quad is still not 100%
and thats the reason is range has been cut down, and that may be the case for the entire year it may take that amount of time to get healthy again. As wolf said though, there really isn’t a replacement right now if you are going to move him, so it doesn’t make sense to me. You can move Barmes to SS, which is a large drop off IMO and I think that will be proven as the season goes along, but even if you did, now who plays 2B?
I really think we are missing the bigger problem, which is the corner positions are supposed to be your power positions, and we have nothing at 3B and very little in LF. We need production from those 2 positions, and obviously getting Iannetta back soon will be a major help also.
But the biggest issue overall w/ this team is really the BP, bottom line. We have had good enough starting pitching and scored enough runs to be much better. The BP is not holding leads and not keeping the game close enough to allow for comebacks. Look at the Rays/Indians game, sure it was an amazing comeback that almost never happens, but they were kept in check after the 4th to even make it possible, any add ons and the game would have been over. I used to think BP pitchers were overrated and I am starting to change my mind.
It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.
Responses!
1. Tulo Quad – I completely and 100%-ly agree. My fear is it will never be where it once was.
2. Ian Stewart ISO: .236 – that’s a real Power Hitter’s ISO (SLG-AVG). However, his batting average looks like crap. Seth Smith ISO: .213. But heyyy, why play your best players, am I right? Also Matt Murton is OPSing .840 with a .241 ISO. I hate to say it, but that puts Spilborghs as the odd man out.
3. Yeah the pen blows nutballs right now. They’re sort of doing their jobs, but they also look like crap.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 26, 2009 12:38 PM MDT up reply actions
Trading Tulo
for me is not about fixing THIS year. This year is over. It’s about fixing 2010, so it’s better then 2009.
And your point on 3rd is huge. Ian Stewart is the biggest concern I have with the Rockies players right now. Fixable? and if so how? AAA? or playing every day? or with new coaches?
If he does turn out to be Bobby Crosby part deux, then sure
But making that assumption at this point is flawed. Crosby’s five years older and has only once hit higher than .239 in a season.
Tulo’s already outperformed Crosby on almost every level. Even with his terrible start and trips to the DL last year, Tulo’s “bad year” was better than every one of Crosby’s seasons except one.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
I agree on the BP
I’m holding out hope that Buchholz, Speier, and Hammel (assuming Morales or Smith bumps him to the pen, where I think he can be valuable). I guess we will have to see. However, at this point, I think too much damage was done to fix the team.
As for Tulo, I think he may just end up being that type of slow starting player, for example, Hawpe before this year. Nothing wrong with is, as long as he is respectable before he heats up (which he has) and plays good defense (up for debate). Look for him to heat back up in June.
Nick Markakis
is batting .179/.179/.357 in his past 7 days.
7 days is statistically insignificant.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 26, 2009 12:40 PM MDT up reply actions
yes
but you said
and his bat – while showing a much-improved Eye – is still very below what he’s capable
I was pointing out….that that wasn’t entirely correct.
And I just gave what he's done in his last 15 games
which isn’t too bad, so statistics as we all know can make our argument say what we want it too. The bottom line is some of us believe in Tulo and some of us do not. I think he is just a slow starter, but hey that’s me. I also think he’s not 100% healthy and I am hoping he will regain what he had and I think he will.
Just to reiterate my point from earlier though, we have scored more runs than anyone in the NL other than the Phils and Dodgers, so I really don’t think scoring is our problem. We have given up the 3rd most runs, so thats our problem, and the BP has been the main culprit and complete disaster.
I am looking towards 2010 as well, and I think we have a couple possibilities for the pen, like Bucky, Weathers, and I really like Lindsay as well. Unfortunately all 3 have health issues.
It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.
"slow starter"
sorry, but this isn’t meant to be harsh to you, I know it’s going to sound that way.
“Slow Starter” is the biggest bunch of BS i’ve ever heard. The season starts in April It’s 162 games long. The games in April count. All the games count. He’s paid to play all season long.
if he’s not good enough to play 162 and a full season then he just sucks. That would be reason enough to trade him.
Why don't you talk to the Yanks about your thoughts
and maybe they wouldn’t have shelled out all that money for Tex and CC, because both of those guys are notoriously slow starters as well, but I’m sure you wouldn’t mind having them on your team. Hopefully as he gets older he will be more consistent, but I would rather have a 2nd half guy than a guy that plays well for 2 months and then you can’t find him down the stretch.
It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.
They have the money to shell out
and other players that can pick up the slack.
but if I had an employee walk up to me on a job site, and tell me he wasn’t any good until 11:00 am…I’d fire him on the spot right there.
Funny I want a full day’s work, no excuses.
but if the employee shows up
says “i’m no good till 11” and then does 2 people’s work in the remaining 6 hours, I hire that guy
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 26, 2009 1:00 PM MDT up reply actions
Precisely
The season is 162 games, so the true value of a player is who he is over the course of the entire season, all things included.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 26, 2009 1:05 PM MDT up reply actions
Sure I do too
but you are asking for perfection, and that just won’t happen, you have your good days and bad days too, and days you lack motivation or focus, it happens to everyone. We all know that baseball is a little different from the real world too.
It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.
I'm not yet sure of the slow starter tag
Two seasons just isn’t enough time to establish a trend. If he comes back like a man possessed post ASB, I’ll believe he may be a perennial slow starter. But for now, he’s just inconsistent in my book.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 26, 2009 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions
that isn't to say
that 2 months of poor ball is a good thing
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 26, 2009 1:19 PM MDT up reply actions
Of course not
Even if he turns out to be a slow starter, I’ll be incredibly frustrated with him. You never know if he’ll get injured or just not turn the light on to make up for it after all.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 26, 2009 1:21 PM MDT up reply actions
but he's not a .167 batter
He’s more of a .280 batter. I’m saying he’s below where we’d like him, and a small slump isn’t the proof to that.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 26, 2009 12:55 PM MDT up reply actions
How do you know
he’s a .280 hitter? because he’s hit that 2 years ago?
I don’t think he’s a .280 hitter right now. He’s so messed up mechanically right now, that “I” can see it.
How do you know that he's not?
You’re using the same conjecture and happenstance that I am.
Tulo has a season line of .236/.331/.414 right now, which shows an IsoD of .095, which is fantastic.
He IS on a downtick at the moment, but he historically picks up from here. Sure I’d rather he be the same 162 games a season, but then maybe he’s just not the guy to establish as the cornerstone of the franchise.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 26, 2009 1:03 PM MDT up reply actions
The reason I don't like Tulo
now or really in the future:
This week was the final straw for me. He’s now stepping to the visitor’s dug out now when he swings. He’s in his 3rd full season in the majors, and he doesn’t have a consistent swing and mechanics. If it’s not his stance, it’s his swing. At a certain point I’d say he’s not going to get it. Personally I think at the very least he should be sent down to AAA. He’s not above the team, or coaching.
Until he hits, I’ll keep betting on the “don’t come” line. I will be money ahead. I’ve given up on the kid ever hitting consistently. He has no stance, and can’t keep up a swing/mechanics for a month. This is pretty basic stuff. It’s usually fixed in High School with a good baseball camp. There is a point where it will happen…or it won’t. In my mind he’s crossed that line.
It’s time to trade him, while he is at the height of his value. ok…Tulo has issues but he still should have value, due to his age, and his potential. He should bring back numbers, even quality The Rockies need, a 2ndbaseman/SS,(maybe 2 if both Nelson and EY2 are busts already as many here claim) back up catcher, and a very young corner IF type, plus lots of bull pen type arms, so trading Tulo should get at least a couple of these filled.
(Pulled in from other thread taht was way off topic, and put them here)
No offense,
But if you bet the “don’’t come” line on Ted Williams in 1941, you’d be coming up money ahead. I know that’s not earth-shattering, but Tulo’s stats have come up fairly significantly over the past three weeks. Sure, he can be frustrating and sure, he may be a slow-starter, but you sound like you expect him to hit .650. Maybe your expectations are “Tuhigh” (get it? RDRR) Seriously though, if you expect him to bat .280 with great defense, maybe you won’t be as frustrated with him.
by Rox R Champs on May 26, 2009 2:02 PM MDT up reply actions
if you expect him to bat .280 with great defense, maybe you won’t be as frustrated with him.
That is what I expect of him. And why .230 with below average defense doesn’t cut it.
If your using
Batting average to define a hitters worth as your soul measure, then you probably think Ianetta sucks as well.
Tulo isn’t having a great year, but its hard from being a disaster either, and he is still young enough that he has not seen his peak yet. He’s also having horrible luck with BAPIP at just .267, when that settles back to his career norm of around .300 you should see his average sitting at .280 with an OBP of .350 and .420 slugging. That my friend is good numbers for a SS with GG defense.
Dude,
I love you man, but…it’s 2 months into his 3rd full season. He has only played 322 major league games. Now is not the time to be worrying about Tulo. Now is the time to be worrying about players that have been here longer and should be producing better (Atkins and Barmes). Maybe next year we can start worrying about Tulo – right now we have much bigger holes to fill, and with no one adequate enough to replace Tulo with, I don’t see any reason to trade him.
"Admirably obsessive." - Uni Watch, March 24th, 2009
NA34 | HK | RMN
This
And as every moment passes, I’m more agreeable to accepting a couple clean t-shirts for Atkins if you take his contract.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
barmes is beyond the point of worry
he’s well defined and a known commodity.
Atkins however = worry because he’s 7M of waste.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 26, 2009 4:07 PM MDT up reply actions
Trading Hawpe
I don’t think it’s that bad of an idea… Hawpe does seem like an “old skills player” who’s going to peak early. Guys like that can fall off a cliff a lot more quickly than you think, but Hawpe’s value is really high right now, never mind that he’s signed through the end of 2010 so his trade value would be higher than a guy who’s a free agent at the end of the season. And with CarGo ready, it’s not like the Rockies would be going to playing a scrub if Hawpe were traded.
I don't like to say it, but I think a fire sale is in order here.
Sure, we may wait a month to do it, but we might as well start now. Tampa just lost Percival and Iwamura for a long time. Maybe packaging Street (who has good value) with Barmes (who still has a little value for his D) will bring in a quality prospect. If we could finagle Davis out of them, I would be happy.
Also, still maintain this is the right time to trade Hawpe. The season is all but done, and Hawpe, despite his +++++ bat, still costs us games with his -——————- defense. He is at the peak of his value right now, and might actually bring in a solid prospect. He is also getting expensive, so the $ saved can be re-invested in the draft or Latin free agency.
And Atkins, just trade him for whatever we can get.
In the end, I fell like this team is best with Helton and a bunch of youngsters.
Wade Davis
is the type of Pitching Talent we should’ve recieved for Holliday. I was bummed we didn’t get him. If they offer him up for Street and something else, you have to jump.
Absoultly
But rocktober killed any chance of that. we could be 60 games back with 61 to play, and the FO would point to 07 as to why we shouldn’t sell. They fail to realize that 07 was a 1 in a billion shot, something that will never happen again.
I have to disagree with this
The FO isn’t going to delude themselves that far. But not even the Nats have started their fire sale yet, and the offers in late May aren’t going to bring nearly enough, because most teams won’t know for a few more weeks whether they should be buyers or sellers.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
Sorry, that was to be a reply to mkorpal's comment
I do think we’ll be trading off 3-4 weeks down the road, though…
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
by Mondogarage on May 26, 2009 12:23 PM MDT up reply actions
I think firesale is a bit strong
But like RoxGirl’s big post, move the older talent, and make it time for the young’uns to take the reins.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 26, 2009 12:25 PM MDT up reply actions
Well, that is what a fire sale is
Sell all of your older, peaked, or post peaked talent for players who are 3-4 years away from their peak. To slim way down in terms of payroll and build for the future. I agree, it isn’t quite the time, I was just pointing out that there are matchups that may get us good value.
Ah
When I’ve heard “firesale” it’s the 1998 Marlins, trade EVERYTHING, not just a few older pieces. I consider that just “smart baseball management”
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 26, 2009 12:41 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm not sure
the Marlins “blue print” isn’t an effective way to build a team. Sucks like hell on the fans, but as a Rockies fan, besides 2 months in 07, it doesn’t seem like that much further down.
The Marlins
have two more world championships than the Rockies do, so they’re apparently doing something right.
I think I did a fanpost on this a while back
the consensus is that we prefer consistent mediocrity to really bad/really good. I think the respective size of home attendances would show that the Rockies strategy is better from a business perspective.
That's not necessarily related
The Marlins do poorly at the turnstiles regardless of how they’re playing, which I think has to do with them being in South Florida… all the rain, hot, humid weather, and the fact that there’s so much else to do in Miami than go to a baseball game… why go to a ballgame when you can go to South Beach, I guess.
Having lived in Miami for 10 years as a kid...
I have to disagree….it’s a major metropolitan area. South Beach….tourist destination. Baseball is huge in south Florida. Hell, my summers were pretty much right out of “The Sandlot” (which was not reflected in my low ceiling talent level, but that’s another story…)
Yes, they need a hybrid dome/open stadium, but I would submit the real reasons there are no fan base in Florida is based on a couple things. Loria’s pretty much driven them away by being a general douche since day one. The full blown roster turnover means the local fan base has no one to identify with. Ever.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
I agree, their model requires everything to be perfect for that season
and fortunately for them it was on 2 occasions. I would love to have 2 WS champions, no doubt about that, but I would prefer to build a more consistent model w/ a chance for winning year after year, and so far we have not been successful w/ that either. I really like the Twins model.
It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.
I also like the Twins model
Whatever it is. Really, I’m not quite sure how they get away with it. They just seem to be able to draft pitching. But really, how they are still good after trading away Santana for that return? It’s like how the Dodgers should be in the cellar after the Jones debacle.
This
All we have to do is hire away their entire front office and coaching staff.
There is probably no better example of a mid-market franchise putting together no less than a competent product on the field year in and year out, than the Twins. And they’ve even managed to hold on to a few of their developed names for significant periods of time. Not all, of course, but no one’s ever accused them of just being someone else’s farm team.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
wonder if they
will give mauer his megadeal or stay true to their methods once the new stadium opens.
That's the great unknown, but I think they actually do keep him
As great as Santana is, I think they’re a difference in perception of the two, probably based solely on Mauer being an “everyday” player, and that he’s looked on as this generation’s Kirby Puckett. I think they actually legitimately do everything they can to keep him. Time will tell. As I’ve said, they’ve always managed to keep one or two of their biggest names well beyond initial free agency when it made sense.
I understand why they let Torii Hunter go when they did, even if it ends up being a mistake.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
I also agree
but I think it might help because Mauer is from MN and may give them a home town discount or at least I’m sure thats what they’re hoping for.
It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.
Yup, I'm sure they're counting on that
But even so, unless he gets a way over the top Boras-driven offer like Teixiera or C.C. got this past year, I don’t see him leaving, even without a hometown discount.
Thing is, I can see the Yanks trying to make such an offer since Posada’s nearing the end…but that’s really the only scenario in which I see Mauer leaving the Twins. I doubt he leaves a consistently good organization with a fighting chance to win every year, in his hometown, for a couple mil more per year in, say, San Francisco or Anaheim.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
Here's why it is not an effective way to build a team
They’re better and much cheaper, but still no one comes to see them play. They have zero fan base whatsoever. What’s the point of winning if no one cares? Not even in South Florida. They draw 10k to their games and they’re a much better product on the field than the Rox.
“Sucks like hell on the fans” nails it on the head.
The Marlins are 28th of 30 teams in attendance. The Rox are 13th. The fans must not be too tired of the product, no?
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
No
Definitely not that type of fire sale. Keep your young, controlled, and high ceiling guys like Iannetta, Stewart, Smith, Dex, Tulo, Jimenez, Morales, Corpas.
Make available all that are good now, or past their prime, but are becoming expensive or close to FA status. Hawpe is the big piece to try to rope in a top flight prospect. Atkins should be traded now. Barmes is getting up their in age, and is getting more expensive. Cook is becoming expensive. Marquis is a FA after this year (although we may choose to take his expected Type B pick instead of trading, depending on the return). Street is going to be very expensive after this year, especially if he continues to do well. Embree can go. Grilli can go, Spills is another that can go.
You get the point.
Iannetta, Stewart, Smith, Dex, Tulo, Jimenez, Morales, Corpas.
Add Chacin and Weathers to that list. Do not move any of these guys unless someone offers the moon.
No more asking please for wins, now I'm telling you: YOU WILL WIN.
"Good is not good when better is expected." -Vin Scully
by The Lodo Magic Man on May 26, 2009 12:58 PM MDT up reply actions
yaya
we’re on the same page now.
The 2005 Rockies were the results of a firesale.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 26, 2009 1:08 PM MDT up reply actions
I'd disagree
some what…as I don’t think any one off a 100 loss team is untouchable with the right offer, and mix of trades.
Even Dinger is available.
Well, maybe not 100% untouchable
But for a team rebuilding, it’s kind of counterproductive to be moving prosects unless they are attached to deals to increase return, like if we add Hynick to Hawpe to get a better prospect in return
otherwise we WOULD end up being pittsburgh
see: Morris, Matt
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 26, 2009 1:20 PM MDT up reply actions
We are not and never have been a 100 loss team though
We’re not even on pace for it THIS year. We may not be able to recover to get to contention, but surely you don’t think they’ll get worse this season? Perhaps if they sell off everyone at the deadline and field the Sky Sox, but this team has too much talent to finish out with a .390 win %age
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 26, 2009 1:20 PM MDT up reply actions
No it's not a big jump
But we would have to perform worse, and there are a LOT of players underperforming
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 26, 2009 1:22 PM MDT up reply actions
That and we've played more road games than basically all of baseball.
Some of this is going to even out. I really don’t expect us to lost 100, or even close.
Exactly, I still think we can win at least 73 games
Not that that’s anything to be proud of, but it’s not remotely close to 100 losses.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
It's also not a real big jump from here to 96 losses
But you’ve pretty much been a glass 1/2 empty guy around here, so I can see why you’d lean towards the former, given the natural gravitational pull.
A true fire sale at this point probably ensures at least 102 losses, though. And as the team’s 13th in attendance, I don’t see the benefit to anyone of alienating your fanbase.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
we haven't lost 100 yet, and Dinger is never available, we are nothing w/out him
It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.
Can we trade him for a Big City Burrito?
Not a franchise, but a single Big City Burrito burrito.
He’s the one part of the franchise I truly can’t stand.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
Here's where it doesn't benefit us
Embree has little to no value. Hawpe has some value, but as a corner OF bat of questionable defense and not true big bopper power, his value is probably not really what you would think. And his contract is actually fair for his production. But he’s tradeable with value.
Cook is about three wins away from the all time Rox record, and one of the few players recognizable to the casual fan. Any trade involving him and/or Hawpe really is a sign of fire sale, because to many, they’re faces of the team.
Street would be a great trade, because he’s one of the few that can bring great value from the right team. But trading Cook/Hawpe/Tulo is the definition of fire sale.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
Thats the crappy part of a sale/rebuild
You need to trade away players who the fans loved. And yes, it’s a risk. But what other choices do we have. I don’t think the current group of young players is enough to win in two years, they need a few more pieces (and maybe better coaching).
AS far as Hawpe, I think he could be a very good DH on a team. I know that I may be over valuing him, but I think that there will be at least one GM willing to give us good value for him.
Oh, and I don’t think I ever said to trade Tulo. He was on my don’t trade list.
Well, that's why I think you can trade one of them
You can make trades of faces without turning everyone away. So you choose the right one or two, and I submit those would be the ones who would get you the most value. Right now, I see that as Hawpe and probably Barmes. Only that you can’t trade Hawpe AND trade Cook AND trade Atkins AND trade Tulo. (I know he’s not on your trade list, but he’s on those who say blow up the team.)
You can always justify to the fanbase the trade of a “face” for baseball reasons, but you can’t justify the trade of all your faces on that basis. The average joe doesn’t get stuff like wOBA, BABIP, and that a player’s peak year is at age 28, so as far as the average joe is concerned, people like Hawpe shouldn’t be on the cusp of their declining phase yet.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
Well, there are a couple trades I'd make now, but....
1. Trade Atkins now, and let Stewart play his way into or out of the future. But we’d get squat for Atkins in terms of talent and probably still have to eat 1/2 the salary, so what’s the point of doing it yet…maybe he can still find a way to recapture his stroke for a month, and then trade him.
2. Trade Hawpe, and bring up CarGo, but only if we can get a significant and affordable talent for him, which I think is not possible yet. And I’ll be sad, because he’s one of my real favorites. But this is our one area of strength in terms of ML-ready talent.
3. Trade Baker and/or Barmes for a quality BP arm who’s signed beyond this year at an affordable price. But that’s also not a likely possibility.
If we are going to get good value for these guys, it’s probably not for another month.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
Quite honestly
I’m not even considering Baker as part of this team anymore. He is like Francis, I just assume I will never see them again, or at least never see production again, and will just be pleasantly surprised if they do contribute in the future.
Agreed, and bummed about Francis
I suspect he’s done as a potential #2/3 starter but will have inordinate chances to hang on in the bigs for 10-12 years being a soft tossing lefty. Bad things happen to good people.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
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