Thursday Rockpile: Hurdle's job seemingly hovers on brink after fiasco
by Rox Girl on May 28, 2009 9:16 AM MDT
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PrintGetting swept by the Dodgers at home has left this picture:
And now it appears the day off lull in the schedule has led many to speculate that today may prove to be the day that the Rockies decide to change direction with their manager.
Patrick Saunders leaves that possibility open in his recap of yesterday's game, it seems that keeping an eye on the newswire could be warranted today. The Rockies players held a meeting prior to yesterday's inspiring performance.
Troy Tulowitzki is pressing and his swing mechanics are at best a work in progress right now. The shortstop's zero for five day at the plate yesterday was evidence enough of that. Jack Etkin takes a look at the pressure he's feeling and is under in his latest.
On Inning Management:
Firing the manager will only begin to get into what this team needs to right the ship. What we've seen so far in 2009 is an inability to play innings effectively. To demonstrate, let's go to the basic objectives of the sport: each team has three outs to score as many runs as possible. Runs are scored by batters reaching base safely and working their way around to home. Outs are created by various methods, but some are in effect "conceded" by the offense giving the defense easy chances (or not even that in the case of strikeouts). Sacrifice bunts, GIDP's, strikeouts all to me fall into this category of outs that the defense has to perform only a little amount of work for. If in each inning your team is only given three outs to play with, each easy out looms very large.
On defense, teams can push their opponents into more outs than usual by having a defensive unit that either has excellent range or scouts the opposition well enough to be placed where outs are more easily made. They can also have pitchers that can provide extra strikeouts or more frequent groundball opportunities.
The Dodgers were in a GIDP scenario in the first inning yesterday after Mark Loretta walked with one out, it could have been one of those conceded outs I spoke of, but their offense was instead able to push Loretta to second and he scored on a James Loney single. The Rockies defense seemingly lacks range and proper positioning, making two out hits like that more likely.
This defensive issue is a big deal. Rockies pitching isn't getting killed this season by the homerun or extra base hit, but it's all the singles that are adding up. The Rockies are allowing just 28% of all their hits given up go for extra bases, the lowest number in the majors. Combine that with the highest BABIP allowed in the majors (and it's not just Coors Field, only Padres pitchers have done worse than Rockies pitchers in Denver) and the conclusion says that Rockies fielders are just not getting the job done.
In the bottom of the first, Dexter Fowler was aboard with zero outs, but Troy Tulowitzki conceded an easy out GIDP, killing the Rockies scoring opportunity and hastening their race to three outs.
Second inning, Ubaldo Jimenez is given an out after allowing two hits to lead off the inning, but makes a defensive error that allows a run to score. Not taking outs when they are handed to you on defense is as bad or worse than giving them away on offense.
And then there's that seventh inning. Rockies pitching time and time again this season will get two of the three outs but then wilt under the gun of getting that last one. Click on this link. It's how NL teams have done pitching with two outs and a runner on third this season. Rockies pitching can't close the wound.
How will a new manager change this? I could see some ways where one would help, but there are clearly issues here that are needing on field personnel changes as well as an off field shift. Whatever happens today or in the future with Clint Hurdle, it will only be part of the solution to the problems that face the Rockies right now.
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Who here thinks the FO just phones in the rest of the season?
/raises hand
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
As a followup, who here things the FO doesn't make any moves WHILE we're phoning this season in?
/raises hand
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 9:26 AM MDT up reply actions
I thnk they'll make a move
Just not the moves we expect them to make. I see them making a trade or two before the deadline, but not unloading the older core players in order to get younger and cheaper
I think we'll know by sunset.
If Hurdle isn’t removed today, I don’t think it will happen until the off season.
Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field?
Author: Jim Bouton
I agree
If is doesn’t happen today this team will just play out the string and not renew him after the season. But they said that a bad start would be his end, and even I didn’t expect this performance.
If he stay you won’t see 10k at the games this summer.
Sad to say...
It could actually get worse than this. There has to be a breaking point sometime
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 28, 2009 9:56 AM MDT up reply actions
pretty sure we are headed there no matter what. I just hope we can get to 60.
by cocainelips99 on May 28, 2009 10:41 AM MDT up reply actions
although having first pick in the draft might be nice.
by cocainelips99 on May 28, 2009 10:41 AM MDT up reply actions
Until
signability over talent is factored in. And the 2010 draft isn’t a great one.
"If we never try, we shall never succeed." - Abraham Lincoln
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
what are we looking at?
is there a fan post on the 2010 draft yet? I agree that a Strausburg type of talent would probably not work for this organization b/c of the signability issues but a very solid SP would be nice. especially a college level guy ready in 2-3 years.
by cocainelips99 on May 28, 2009 10:57 AM MDT up reply actions
Like Greg Reynolds?
He was supposed to be ready in 2-3 years.
Right now, Matt Harvey would likely fit what you’re asking for, but his rep is Scott Boras.
"If we never try, we shall never succeed." - Abraham Lincoln
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
I was about to bring this up...
Look at the 2006 draft and you see some pitchers in the top 3 that are still struggling.
Luke Hochevar, Greg Reynolds, Brad Lincoln
So far the class of that draft from a pitching standpoint comes from picks 10-11.
Max Scherzer and Little Timmy.
Check out my Rockies comic strip at:
Rock Drive 1.4
Andrew Miller as well
He was supposed to be a big talent but so far hasn’t done much.
Overall that draft just wasn’t that great for pitching. It says something that Hochevar went from #40 in the ’05 draft (though that was in part signability) to #1 in ’06.
Kershaw is finding his stuff (#7)..
And Joba Chamberlain at 41 has looked good so far.
Check out my Rockies comic strip at:
Rock Drive 1.4
Kershaw will be good in time
Assuming he doesn’t get hurt. I’m not sure what to make of Joba going forward, but based on results thus far he’s been the second best pitcher from that draft class.
The FO
has been phoning it in since the WS ended, certainly I doubt they’re going to get up and do something now.
everyone got hurt last season
that really isn’t a fair statement to make.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 10:31 AM MDT up reply actions
Sure it is.
the Red Sox exposed a number of key problems with the team (from a “winning a championship” perspective) not the least of which included the need for another top-end starter. Rather than address this (or other concerns) we let go one of the key cogs to the 2007 machine (Matsui) and replaced him with an obvious failure-waiting-to-happen. We made no other competitive moves to improve, but rather banked entirely on the magic of 21 days being sustainable. It was a bad plan at the time, and many here said so. Since then, the team has further regressed in on-field talent without any moves made with a clear eye to be competitive this year. That is precisely why myself and many others argued, following the Holliday trade, that this year should be treated as a rebuilding year. Instead, the FO tried to sell this as a competitive year despite no logically legitimate reason to do so (which was reflect in pretty much every national preview, none of which considered us a threat for the playoffs).
The fact is, this team as constructed by the FO was not, and is not, even close to a playoff contender, let alone a title contender. Whether or not Hurdle is in the dugout. Sadly, the team is even worse than some of us “negatives” thought it would be. Its a disaster, and its all on DOD’s doorstep.
by Teekalong on May 28, 2009 10:48 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
The only thing the Red Sox exposed in '07..
Was how tough it is for a team to sit idle for a week, through a snowstorm, and then play a team with pitchers throwing in their regular rotation getting the work they need to stay sharp.
Check out my Rockies comic strip at:
Rock Drive 1.4
I really hope
you don’t really believe that’s why we lost. A sorry, sorry excuse.
It's certainly not nearly the only reason...
… but it is also common sense that the team that played last week is going to be in better shape than the team that didn’t.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 11:53 AM MDT up reply actions
I've heard
theories going both ways on this and I don’t know that there’s anything conclusive on point. Regardless, even if its slightly true, the fact is we were swept by a team that most pundits thought would sweep us. The reason? Talent, primarily in starting pitching. I mean, Francis was really fun to watch in 2007 but if you think he holds a candle to Beckett you’re kidding yourself. And from there…I mean, we started Josh Fogg! A guy most fans around here didn’t even want on the team…
Pundits also thought the Phillies would sweep us,
And some thought the D-backs would as well. The same talentless team clubbed the Red Sox at Fenway earlier in the season. The actual talent of the team is and was much higher then than you give credit for, but still clearly unsustainable. The team needed to make better personnel choices than it has since, that’s clear.
I think
that team was a lot more talented than this one, FWIW. I don’t think we were flatly overmatched by the Sox such that a sweep was inevitable, but I do think that the Sox were clearly the better team and i doubt anyone credible would suggest otherwise.
And after last year, is it absurd to think the Phillies might have been better in 2007 anyway? As discussed below, the better team doesn’t always win.
At any rate, my point was that the weaknesses demonstrated by the Sox were not addressed, to the contrary, the FO made things worse. I don’t see how that position is disputable.
"As discussed below, the better team doesn’t always win."
That depends on your definition of better. You could say that the best team is the one with the potential, however immeasurable, to win the most games is the best. However, I tend to feel that the team that wins the most games is the best.
It’s the same logic I apply to the players. Our team has talent… but they’re not a good team unless they play as they can.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 12:57 PM MDT up reply actions
well, I agree
I’m a big believer in “scoreboard” generally telling you all you need to know. And the Rox/Phils won the same amount of games during the regular season (not counting our play-in).
I think the case could be made that the Phillies had more talent in 2007 — that is where the pundits were coming from. Certainly 2008 supports that conclusion.
Also worth noting is that the Phillies have been making strong moves to improve since that time. I certainly wouldn’t mind Ibanez in LF for us.
Talent is, of course, difficult to measure.
I don’t think it can accurately be said that either the 2007 Rockies or the 2007 Phillies had more talent, considering how much of this sport is luck (it’s a lot more, I think, than most people admit).
I just got an interesting idea for some research.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 1:08 PM MDT up reply actions
Hmm
I think it is only our speculation that today could be it. We all thought nsomething would be done before coming home. I just don’t think O’Dowd and the Monforts see what is really going on, and if they do, I am afraid the conversation would lead to Baylor or Tracy taking charge, and I’m not a big fan of either of those potential moves.
It is interesting what was said about defense and placement of players. Stewart has looked every bit as bad at 3b as Atkins; our 2b play seems to be solid except in tight games and whoever is there seems to make a costly mistake. Hawpe, Spilly, and Smith all seem to have difficulty getting good jumps, and not one of our outfileders seems to be able to throw on a line.
Bad luck, bad play, bad coaching, bad pitching…hard for talent to compensate for all of those things.
If Baylor wasn't ill
It might have been done on the road. The last 2 wins in Detroit probably got him the first deries in the home stand. This team needs a lot and Neither is a long term solution, but after half of the coaching staff went you had Hurdle and Dac as dead man walking.
Well, I think I'll just go out for a bike ride and hope when I come back there has been a presser called.
Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field?
Author: Jim Bouton
I'm with you on this
I get the feeling something might happen today, but I had the same Feeling after the Braves series.
Face it, this orginization accepts a loosing culture, and it accepts mediocrity. That starts from the top and works its way down, whether the orginization see’s it or not. I’ve been on the Fire Hurdle Bandwagon since he was a hitting coach (if you looked at it back then he wasn’t getting that job done right either), but I understand that even if Hurdle goes, which he should, its not going to change much.
However I must add
that doing nothing, is a slap in the face to the fans, which is something the Front Office doesn’t understand either.
by wolf213 on May 28, 2009 10:51 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's also a slap at the players.....
who have clearly lost respect for him and aren’t busting their butts for him anymore.
What’s telling is that several players would speak off the record to the Post in speculating that today could be the day of his firing. You know there is unhappiness in the clubhouse when that happens, and that everyone on the roster is holding their collective breath.
So if the FO or ownership doesn’t move on this today, they are not only dissing the fanbase, they are also dissing their own team. It has to happen. On the other hand, this is the same group that gave Hurdle and O’Dowd extensions on multiple occassions when they weren’t warranted, so who knows.
by GoRoxGo on May 28, 2009 10:57 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Why did so few see this?
“Whatever happens today or in the future with Clint Hurdle, it will only be part of the solution to the problems that face the Rockies right now.”
Rox Girl, among most other fans, came into the season way too optimistic about our chances, predicting 80-something wins in most cases. I felt we had the talent to be close to a .500 team, but would end up with our usual 70-something wins due to the “Hurdle factor” and our culture of losing.
The question is why don’t more fans see the problems until they are right on top of us? The blind local loyalty to this team has been revealing of a fanbase that has been as naive as our front office and management has been incompetent. I’m not saying I’m prescient or perfect at prognosticating or anything. But my point is that Rockies baseball is more enjoyable if you take an objective look at this franchise and not just wear purple glasses all the time, until it’s so plainly obvious how this organization wreaks.
Rant over.
by GoRoxGo on May 28, 2009 10:37 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I figured 86 was doable
Just because we had an awful stretch last year with some injuries. But this team has had issues during the entire tenure of Hurdle. We simply aren’t a team that will contend year in and year out. every 3-4 years we may get a run. The Monforts are happy with 28k a night and getting money from revenue sharing and having a fun hobby. But I do think that some coaching can produce better results than this team has gotten.
I sensed things could spiral out of control....
due to the stress of Hurdle’s job hanging over the team. Everyone knew this was the only season in Hurdle’s tenure when he was working without job security, i.e. without a contract that employed him beyond this season.
My thinking was that if the team got off to a slow start due to some heartbreaking losses, which happened, the quality of play could deteriorate as players press to play through the tension of not knowing the status of their manager and coaching staff. Combine that with Hurdle’s desperate signs of trying to salvage his job, such as the public benching of Tulo, the switching of roles of Street and Corpas twice in a couple week stretch, the constant lineup changes, etc., and team morale and confidence went south.
Hurdle clearly created an unsettled atmosphere in the clubhouse with his flinchings and flailings. This affects individual and collective CONFIDENCE. Tulo was hot before he was benched, now he’s cold. Corpas has totally lost confidence after losing his closer job for the second time. Grilli hasn’t been the same since being pulled after two batters in Detroit. That’s just for starters. There are many other examples.
A manager’s #1 job is to INSTILL confidence in his players and the team as a whole, to make them BELIEVE in themselves, to be a successful team “psychologist”. Hurdle has earned an “F” on this basis, and deserves to be gone today.
Grilli was slipping before Detroit.
Not saying that helped, but it wasn’t the beginning of his slide.
It was the straw that broke the camel's back.
Grilli may have been showing signs of decreased performance, but there is a very large difference between his performance pre-Detroit and post-Detroit.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 11:52 AM MDT up reply actions
That's just an ignorant statement..
You don’t know how players are going to react until thrown into the regular season. You had no way of knowing Stewart would be hitting near the Mendoza line. You had no way of knowing Marquis would be our most consistent pitcher. You had no way of knowing the Padres would be in 2nd place so far.
And when I say you, I mean the Rockies fans as a collective.
Check out my Rockies comic strip at:
Rock Drive 1.4
I think you completely misread me at times.
That I’m optimistic about the Rockies is no doubt true, but that doesn’t mean I’m not also aware of the organization’s failings. I think the main thing I got wrong in the offseason was how good the Dodgers were, I just didn’t see them performing this well and thought they’d be a bit closer to the NL West pack. My purple tinted glasses don’t seem to make Rockies baseball any less enjoyable.
My thoughts on Hurdle
I think that he is such a great guy to play for and a nice man and everyone on the team knows that his job is hanging in the balance so they are all playing with that pressure on their shoulders. Since we don’t really have a leader on this team everyone has to take a share of the burden when he loses his job. I say get rid of him now and let the boys play baseball without the added stress of causing their buddy to lose his job.
In their history
only one Manager has been fired during the season. Buddy Bell.
Why do any of you think that is going to change now? Its wishful thinking IMO.
I agree that Hurdle has outlived his leadership ability with the team, and maybe they don’t have the right on-field makeup to win, but we’ll never know until the organization gets a fresh set of eyes to evaluate who to keep, and who should be offered up as tradebait.
Tracy? Wasn’t he brought in to help Hurdle with using the bullpen? How’s that been working out…
And, isn’t that Apocaca’s job (intentionally misspelled BTW)
Daley, a call-up, was the only one that was doing the job and then he got hurt in a freak play.
Street? He’s a proven closer, that, while not cheap, has given some people less heart problems than Fuentes did.
Too many people want him to be Gagne and shut teams down. He’s not that kind of pitcher, so why try to evaluate him that way…
Corpas? He’s screwed up right now, and no one has the answer as to why.
Fogg? You have got to be kidding me… He couldn’t keep his job at Cincinnati… He’s an answer?
Embree? Maybe he’s finally lost what he’s been successful at…
Grilli? Words escape me as to whats gone wrong with him, but I’d bet that he’s covering up an injury.
Are any of these the fault of Hurdle or Tracy? Probably not.
Have the decisions being made as to how to use the BP shown improvement? Again, if the answer is NO, then someone has to GO.
They got rid of Gallego, and wasn’t he the IF coach? How’s the defense been playing this year? Poor? Then the team didn’t evaluate which coach was doing his job correctly and fired the wrong guy.
Is the actual problem the makeup of the team?
Did the FO and Manager feel comfortable bringing in people of faith, and all-around good guys, that lack the ability to call out their teammates (read guts to speak up) for not getting the critical hit to drive in the guy in the 5th of that close game. Maybe they need someone to start swinging a bat in the dugout when they get called out on a 3rd strike, or fail to move the runners over with nobody out.
All the “nice try, you did your best” crap needs to stop, and the organization needs to realize that just because someone is a nice guy doesn’t mean they will succeed at MLB.
It really won’t matter what’s wrong this season, the fans won’t see any changes until after the season has concluded, and we will have followed another last-place finisher.
by rockieprogress on May 28, 2009 11:26 AM MDT reply actions
Firing managers
Usually, it’s more symbolic than anything. I generally think that on-field managers don’t play a great role in the team’s success. There are in-game moves that will have some bearing on the team’s win-loss record — pulling a starter too early, leaving him in too long, pinch-hitting in the wrong spot, etc. — but ultimately, if the talent isn’t there, the team’s not going to win; likewise, even the most inept manager can’t do a whole lot to mess up a supremely talented team. Look at the managerial career of Joe Torre if you need proof of this: the Cardinals were mediocre under his watch, but he won a lot of games and a few World Series as manager of the Yankees.
All that firing the manager does is send a message, namely that the front office is committed to winning and that they don’t think the current manager is getting the job done. Of course, there are examples in recent years of a manager being fired midseason and the team coming back to make the playoffs (Brewers last year, and I think the Astros did it one year as well.) I highly doubt that will happen with the Rockies though.
Worse than that...
… we have a case where the talent IS there, and we’re still not winning. I have always found the role of the manager to be substantially overrated in baseball. I do not believe for one second that firing Hurdle changes one thing about this team’s performance.
But at this point, what have they got to lose? There’s not a realistic chance that a new manager is going to do any better with the tools he has than Hurdle, that a new GM is going to somerhow magically get more resources with which to build a team, or that a new coach will remind Atkins how to be Atkins, or Corpas how to be Corpas.
It just won’t happen. But why not try?
The struggles of this team, in my mind, are 99.5% the players’ fault. Is it not possible, even if not likely, that new PTBs would at least suggest some level of potential change?
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 11:43 AM MDT up reply actions
It won't.
My whole argument is that firing Hurdle won’t change anything, but it does send a message from the front office that they’re committed to putting out a winning ballclub. Right now, a lot of fans are unconvinced of this.
However, if as you argue, the talent IS there (I do agree on this point), then the fact that they’re not playing up to their potential reflects on somebody… whether it’s the players themselves or the coaching staff isn’t clear.
You agree only on that point?
I thought I agreed with you on everything. I said in the post that I agreed a managerial change would do nothing.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 11:51 AM MDT up reply actions
Oh, right.
I’m out of it today. I emphasized that just because the way I worded it might have sounded like I didn’t think the talent was there.
I think the fanbase as a whole is just so desperate for a firing...
… they’ve convinced themselves that it will somehow magically make the team better. When the players play is when the team is better. A manager can help, but he can’t make it happen.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 11:57 AM MDT up reply actions
Well...
In some cases, it does. If this is a problem of motivation, firing Hurdle might make the players get the message. Or it might not. You never really know how a firing will affect the players, unless he’s obviously unpopular with the players.
I did some research on this topic a while back.
While often the winning percentage improved after fired managers, it also generally tended to stay below .500.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 12:04 PM MDT up reply actions
if the problems are 99.5% the players fault
and I am not saying that they aren’t, doesn’t that call into the question the actual talent level of these guys? I have come to the painful conclusion that we are just not that talented. Once the purple glasses come off you see a mediocre middle infield (Tulo ain’t an all-star or a leader – he is a meathead), a left field and 3b talent problem, a young catcher who still hasn’t really proven that he can consistently block bad pitches and/or hit, an unproven CF who should be awesome in a couple of years, a right fielder who is peaking and a 1B who is on the downward slope. Forget about the pitching staff beyond Ubaldo. So I think you are right in saying that it is the players fault but I disagree with your contention that we have the talent to win. Beyond a miracle run in ’07 we are a consistent sub .500 baseball team and until the ownership wants to win we are spinning our wheels. Still though – FIRE HURDLE!!!
by cocainelips99 on May 28, 2009 11:52 AM MDT up reply actions
“and I am not saying that they aren’t, doesn’t that call into the question the actual talent level of these guys? I have come to the painful conclusion that we are just not that talented”
No. Talent is something that can be possessed by a player even when they spend their entire major league career playing awful. I do not believe talent is the proper term. This team has talent. Most of these players have histories of success in professional baseball.
Thing is, as I said, talent does not equal performance. The most talented player in the world can not do a thing. He’s still talented. He’s just not a good performer. They’re different things.
I am confident that all of these players have it in them to play better. The point is, if they don’t, the talent means little to nothing.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 11:56 AM MDT up reply actions
I agree with this
Talent does not always equal performance. I knew quite a few C students in high school who were smarter than most of the A students; likewise being a .300 hitter doesn’t always mean you’re more talented than a .240 hitter.
Nor does hitting below .200 and groudning out in 75% of your ABs...
… mean you can’t also hit .325 and lead your team in RBIs (Atkins).
Atkins isn’t hitting .190 because he has no talent. He’s hitting there because he’s not using the talent.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 12:01 PM MDT up reply actions
I would say that bat speed is a baseball talent
And Ground Outkins doesn’t have much of that anymore – hence he ain’t got much talent.
by cocainelips99 on May 28, 2009 12:04 PM MDT up reply actions
nobody's arguing Atkins with you
However they are arguing Tulo, Stewart, Iannetta
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 12:06 PM MDT up reply actions
oh wolfmarauder is. My point stands, however.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 12:06 PM MDT up reply actions
I definitely feel Atkins has talent.
I’m certainly not trying to argue performance, or even argue that I expect Atkins to perform to the level of his talent ever again. I, if you remember, was one of the more skeptical of Atkins’ upside this season before the season started.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 12:08 PM MDT up reply actions
of the three
I believe Ianetta has the greatest chance to realize his talent potential and become an all-star. I really don’t think that Tulo has enough talent to be anything more than a journeyman SS. Stewart’s power is undeniable but his other 4 tools are questionable at best.
by cocainelips99 on May 28, 2009 12:10 PM MDT up reply actions
I hope I am as wrong as can be though
by cocainelips99 on May 28, 2009 12:13 PM MDT up reply actions
Iannetta already is realizing his talent
He’s good at throwing out runners, he doesn’t allow many PBs, he has an IsoD of like .120 and he’s averaging more than a double every time he hits the ball.
I’d like to see more batting average, but that seems to be a problem on this team with players whose last name doesn’t start with an H
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 12:15 PM MDT up reply actions
I think Iannetta can certainly hit with better average than he does.
But again, it’s all potential, much of which is never filled.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 12:16 PM MDT up reply actions
I realistically think .260 is what he'll level off to
but .260/.380/.510 = Elite Catcher
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 12:17 PM MDT up reply actions
I think that's a realistic assessment of about where he levels off.
But I also think he is capable of more.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 12:18 PM MDT up reply actions
But we know he CAN have bat speed.
I view talent (as you said in the other post, entirely subjectively) as potential, not performance or results. Somebody posted elsewhere the good metaphor of school grades. Some student could be perfectly capable of getting straight As, and simply doesn’t perform well enough to do it. That doesn’t mean they’re C level in intelligence, just C level in performance.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions
can he though?
Is bat speed something you can just turn on or off?
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 12:08 PM MDT up reply actions
Possibly.
People “forget” how to do things all the time. Formal mechanics in athletics, such as this, can be disrupted. Because Atkins seems to be unable to swing his bat properly right now doesn’t mean he can’t, it just means that he isn’t.
There could be reasons he can’t (injury, loss of strength, and more likely, mental blocking), but those things can also potentially do, and we have seen him do it. Therefore, I believe Atkins has displayed the talent to do this, and simply isn’t doing it. As I have said, talent =\= performance. Player A can spend 2 seasons in the majors hitting .150 and only hitting one home run, and still have had the talent to be an All Star.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 12:11 PM MDT up reply actions
Professional golfers
Have issues with there swings every week. Nothing really changes for them. They have almost complete control of their set up.
TGFPR!!
So therefore the issues baseball players have are exactly the same?
I think you’d be hardpressed to prove that there are almost never cases of decreased performance over long term due to formal mechanics issues.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 12:40 PM MDT up reply actions
point, sort of
But I’ll be damned to see a golfer who can hit a golf ball coming at him at 92mph.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 12:40 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't think it is
Unless he is hiding an injury of course. There is a real possibility that Atkins just got old. and fast.
by cocainelips99 on May 28, 2009 12:11 PM MDT up reply actions
I can see this
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 12:11 PM MDT up reply actions
and now
we might be seeing a LOT more of that than, say, 10 years ago…
That's always a possibility.
Old player skills guys like Atkins tend to peak early and decline quickly. But it’s not like it happened that fast… he went from being a .329 hitter in ‘06 to .286 last year, so it’s been more of a steady dropoff before falling off a cliff this season.
yelling at kids
asking stupid questions about how elevators work
constantly reminding batters that they’re up next
stuff like that
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 4:28 PM MDT up reply actions
yes and no
Bat Speed loss can be due to bad mechanics (like the big nike swoosh Atkins currently is doing with his hands) It can also be age, as reflexes DO slow down as we get older. Slowly for most of us, but on a professional sports level, that small difference is/can be dramatic.
But some players are able to adjust their swing mechanics to make up for the slowing reflexes (though I’d say that’s a minority)
so what do you think?
Can we fix Atkins’ formerly beautiful swing, or is he just a clunker anymore?
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 12:18 PM MDT up reply actions
I'd bet no
but he is also the type of guy that a couple teams give up on, and then bam, they get a good hitting coach and make adjustments, and then have a couple miracle rebound years.
But I’d say no, because, Atkins hasn’t struck me as ever being particularly athletic gifted…besides that beautiful sweet swing he once had.
I think Atkins is both age, and bad mechanics right now, compounding to make it look far worse.
So you feel his swing is dooming him to a life of hitting below .200?
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions
yes
and his aged declined reflexes are dooming him to be a .250-260ish hitter when/if he fixes his mechanics. (with no power) which won’t cut it for a corner infielder.
That may be...
… but it still suggests to me that he has room for improvement from where he is.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 12:31 PM MDT up reply actions
I'd put money on Atkins regaining form
And batting .290 or higher in the second half of the season. 5 of your American dollars. Anyone want to take it?
I wouldn't bet against it
But that means he’ll be batting .290/.360/.390 with terrible defense, no speed (PHLP!!!) and such.
Granted, if he has a .360 OBP, he should still be playing, but the complete power outage is killing me, esp for corner IF. A guy like Atkins needs to be slugging about .460-.490 if he is batting well enough to post a .360 OBP.
Remember, too, that if he puts up that line for the entire 2nd half, that gives him season numbers of .240/.310/.340, good for a .650 OPS, and that’s pretty much awful still. Even bump his power for the 2nd half up .040, and that only helps his season line by .020, for .670 OPS.
He’s still poor.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 29, 2009 8:49 AM MDT up reply actions
The more I look at it
The more I think we need a new coaching staff. I don’t think Apodaca has done anything particularly wrong, but something isn’t working. Bullpen coach needs to go. Baylor…well, I don’t know, I like that we’re more patient, but at the same time…hell, I don’t know, if we have a good replacement, sure.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions
I think Apodaca should be considered for replacement much quicker than Baylor, honestly.
Didn’t we just change bullpen coaches this last offseason? Or was he one of the ones who stayed on?
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 12:29 PM MDT up reply actions
Baylor
to me is going to be judged on what he did with the Rockies two blue chip guys, Ian Stewart and Tulowitzki.
Both are not hitting. Neither has improved. Tulo is all mechanics (as messed up as anyone in the majors I can remember watching consistently) and Stewart, I just don’t know.
But that’s all the hitting coaches fault.
What about Dex?
Monstrous spring, made the club, and he’s about an average player with good speed at this point, and bound to get better
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 12:36 PM MDT up reply actions
Dex so far
is going through the normal curve of a rookie. No one has a book on them, they hit everything. Then they get a book. For Dex is was he can’t hit inside breaking pitches. Now he’s adjusting and hitting them, or fouling them off, and hitting the other stuff.
Most players don’t have a line shot of performance. Dex’s so far is quite normal, and is improving. I like Dex a lot.
I would add
that many thought Dex needed a refresher in AAA. NO..Dex’s problem was learning how to hit a major league slider, which can’t be learned in AAA…on in the majors.
If it’s mechanical, or confidence, then AAA or even AA can do wonders. Learn and readjust on pitchers that aren’t as good. Easier to learn on some kid named Andy Romine then it is on a Broxton fastball, or a Hoffman change
ALL the hitting coach's fault?
Now, I’ve not been on an athletic team for a long time, but I seem to remember being able to ignore/improperly implement a coach’s advice. There were a lot of times in my baseball days when I flat out sucked, even while my coaches were giving me good advice.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 12:41 PM MDT up reply actions
I always blamed the coaches
for when I sucked. Made me feel better.
Yes the players do have a role in it. They have to perform what is taught them true. but getting through to them and fixing what is wrong….a lot of that is coaching
(All was too strong)
I still don't agree on this point...
… but I think it may be more subjective than anything. I find the role of managers and coaches to be largely overrated, and believe that their role in turning around a player’s performance can only go a few steps of the way into a large field.
When my coach tells me to keep my heard like this, my arms like this, and my bat like this, when I go up to the plate and don’t do it right, it’s my fault. If the Coach just didn’t give me any advice, or didn’t find me after the game and tell me what I did wrong this time, then yeah, there’s a coaching problem.
But Baylor, for example, should not be held accountable when Tulo, for example, doesn’t do what he tells him to fix. It’s Baylor’s job to coach him, not walk with him to the plate and whisper in his ear what to do while he’s at bat.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 12:50 PM MDT up reply actions
I guess I'm looking at it
like I was a manager of any business. Ultimately the peformance of a group rests at the top.
Example: I have a project, and I hire a plumber that messes everything up. I’m over budget and behind schedule. Who’s in trouble? The plumber? sure some Or me for hiring him?
Accountability absolutely rests at the top.
But a lot of times, even in the business sphere, a manager suffers the consequences of an underperforming workforce he has tried and tried and tried to motivate.
Sometimes, even the people who are doing their jobs get the axe. But what I am trying to clarify is that it may not be their fault.
I maintain that it is the coach’s job to coach, not play baseball and win games. If one coach isn’t working, then he may be dismissed. But that doesn’t mean he wasn’t doing his job, necessarily.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 1:11 PM MDT up reply actions
Oh I understand
what you are saying. And at some point player have to play. Coaches aren’t between the lines with the ball.
But if a player can’t or won’t do what they are suppose to. It’s time to get new players. And that is a management decision.
Which is a round about way of saying this whole mess on the current Rockies team is Dan O’Dowd’s fault or the Monfort’s or owned jointly
I don't do a lot of blame game placing...
… never been my style. But I do place blame on our ownership more than anywhere else.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 1:22 PM MDT up reply actions
1/2 my career
feels like I’m either answering or asking this question: “Who the hell around here is responsible for this? and how are we going to fix it?” so it comes naturally to me
and I don’t see that out of the Rockies as an organization.
I know this from experience
My younger brother got a perfect score on the ACT and (I think, I never actually looked at his report cards) mostly got B’s in high school. Simply because Tulo is batting .227 right now doesn’t mean he’s a .227 hitter; he was a .291 hitter just a couple of years ago, and it looked legit.
With the Rockies right now, though, there’s nobody on the team who’s obviously overperforming and figures to come back to earth, but there are several players who are clearly underperforming. There is talent on this team, but right now it’s not translating into results.
Atkins' once-perceived ceiling has dropped substantially
I’d argue his “talent” level has diminished
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions
It has diminished.
I don’t believe he’ll ever contend for a batting title again. But the question is, do you believe his ceiling (or talent) is hitting .190 and grounding out 75% of the time? Or do you think he has the talent to do better?
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 12:12 PM MDT up reply actions
I think his 2008 numbers reflect his current talent level
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 12:13 PM MDT up reply actions
Then, indeed, I would maintain my argument that Atkins is a talented player who is drastically underperforming.
And not a player with very little talent performing as best he can.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 12:14 PM MDT up reply actions
I was distinguishing that his talent level
wasn’t his ’06 ceiling any longer.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 12:16 PM MDT up reply actions
That's a reasonable assessment
Though probably a little bit of a dropoff from his 2008 numbers, not the steep dropoff we’ve seen so far… maybe a .260-.270 hitter with some power.
concur
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 12:15 PM MDT up reply actions
talent is probably not the right term
you are right there. I think it is more “we don’t have players on this team who have the ability to succeed consistently.” But I still contend that if you take our players and compare them to the rest of the league on talent alone, we would rank towards the bottom of the league. Talent is subjective of course so I could be (and probably am) wrong.
by cocainelips99 on May 28, 2009 12:04 PM MDT up reply actions
That's a way of putting it where I would agree with you.
Which is exactly why I place so much blame on the players. I can try to justify their talent all I want, but there’s no way for me (or anyone) to say they are consistently performing (or performing at all, really).
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 12:05 PM MDT up reply actions
Talent and results aren't always present at the same time
A team can win games with little talent or be terrible with a ton of talent. Look at the Nuggets…no real talent change, but a great difference in their results. Just because we aren’t winning doesn’t mean these players aren’t talented
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 28, 2009 11:57 AM MDT up reply actions
I think your anti-O'Dowd glasses skew your vision the other way.
The big test of a team’s talent level is if the players are ore would be desirable by other teams. Of the Rockies, the guys that aren’t are the ones that the team is most trying to get rid of, players like Atkins and Torrealba and Baker. The players the team’s intent on keeping (and this isn’t necessarily a good thing from a team management perspective) are the one’s that do get attention from other clubs, and a lot of them are on your supposed no talent list.
All quiet on Hurdle front...
The morning after the Rockies’ lopsided sweep, all remains quiet on manager Clint Hurdle’s status, according to multiple major league sources.
Are we to believe......
That if Hurdle is gone, other heads in the staff will follow? How about the front office? Are all of them shortly behind?
that's the 60 million dollar question
no one really knows if anyone will be fired.
As fans we think that the organization should be hosed out like the Monkey cage at closing time. But will the ones with power think the same thing?
I think Hurdle and Apodaca are the most likely to be fired.
I don’t think any of the new coaches or O’Dowd are being held too accountable by the FO right now.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 12:51 PM MDT up reply actions
What about
Apodaca? Hasn’t HIS bullpen been awful? Hasn’t he been under fire forever too?
It's 1:30 pm and no press conference has been called
so it looks like Hurdle will be the manager until the end of the year. And the Front Office just show the fans what they think of them, and showed us they don’t give a damn about win loss records.
Even if firing the manager is largely symbolic, we need the symbol.
I agree it seems unlikely any move will be made today
(unless they’re in serious debate about it as we speak), but I’m not signed off to a potential change later on this year. As Poseidon mentioned way up above… it has the potential to get a whole lot worse.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 1:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Why
HAD Iannetta struggled so much? Tulowitzki struggled so much? Stewart struggled so much? Adkins struggled so much? Corpas/Grilli/Belisle/Reynolds/Morales struggled so much? Aren’t coaches suppose to coach you out of the struggles? Ianetta is really the only one to bounce back since the tough times. Still, he isn’t gonna win a batting title.
"Aren’t coaches suppose to coach you out of the struggles?"
It takes a player to make a chance. Hurdle/Baylor/Apodaca/Whoever can bark all the words they want into their heads. Change isn’t made until the player makes it.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 1:53 PM MDT up reply actions
true
but a coach is suppose to recognize flaws and help you be aware of mechanics/ mindset/ approach. True the players are suppose get out of these slumps but these are the horses. Find someone to guide them. The talent is here.
Indeed he is...
… but even a good coach, who is recognizing the flaws and making you aware of the mechanics, is not always enough to isnpire a player to become a winner. The talent is most definitely there, but I believe the players are ultimately responsible for bringing it out. The coaches are aids, nothing more. I’m not saying that our particular coaching staff is good, but I can say that it’s going to take more than just replacing them to fix this team.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 2:14 PM MDT up reply actions
dont you think
that their voices are drown out? Wouldn’t a new guy in the clubhouse be a new perspective? Even if its the same perspective, its a new voice that possibly the players would be open to. Lets put it this way……what is here now, is not working
hey, not to interrupt this conversation
but if you click on the little “reply” link under the comment you are commenting on, the comments will all say threaded and the conversation will maintain a better sense of cohesion.
You’re both making good points and it’s a good dialogue to read. Carry on.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 2:22 PM MDT up reply actions
will all "stay" threaded
see, this is what it looks like. Except I’m stupid and can’t spell.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions
It's true.
I don’t think we have a lot to lose by trying, but I don’t think we’ve got a lot to gain either.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 2:26 PM MDT up reply actions
ok you are right....
lets cash it in.18-144 it is then.
This year is over
Any managerial change right now will be largely symbolic. Not even Whitey Herzog could take a team this far below .500 and 16 games behind the Dodgers and make them a playoff team this year. Sorry.
But firing the manager would let ME, a member of the ticket buying public that the Front Office notices the mess. By doing nothing, it tells me the Front Office don’t give a damn about the fans, the players, or the product they put on the field
OT: I just noticed
that there is no more dichotomy between coach types here. And by here, I mean PR.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 28, 2009 2:55 PM MDT reply actions
reason was Silver and I didn't have appropriate permissions
to edit articles if the need arose.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 3:45 PM MDT up reply actions
Sounds like a good reason to me
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 28, 2009 4:05 PM MDT up reply actions
...and apparently I got demoted to the bottom of the coaching staff.
Weak. :D
“I can’t get no respect!”
Eschew Obfuscation!
you're like Gil from The Simpsons
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 29, 2009 9:58 AM MDT up reply actions
You were always at the bottom of the bench coaches anyway
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 29, 2009 11:13 AM MDT up reply actions
Is that supposed to make me feel better?
Now I can’t even rationalize that the list is in reverse alphabetical order, like I did previously.
Eschew Obfuscation!
Only because
RMN and you were added to the masthead before the other three guys even came on board. It goes chronologically.
"If we never try, we shall never succeed." - Abraham Lincoln
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
Still nothing?
This is like the worst Christmas morning ever.
by dogs on May 28, 2009 3:21 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
+1
Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field?
Author: Jim Bouton
Or maybe it's like knowing Christmas is coming but you don't know when. And no one will tell you.
Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field?
Author: Jim Bouton
I hate when
ESPNews has the red alert at the bottom pop up but it says something about nascar or Zambrano. I keep hoping it will say something has been done. I want something done but I’m afraid nothing is going to be.
Getting pretty late in the day for that to happen.
But you never know.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 4:17 PM MDT up reply actions
Well, MLBTraderumors has some news for YOU!
Brett Myers may need hip surgery. They may acquire Jason Marquis – amongst like 7 other pitchers.
Matt Belisle cleared waivers and accepted his AAA assignment. Good for him.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 4:19 PM MDT up reply actions
Though I'm still not sure now...
… Belisle had officially cleared a couple days ago, right after he was designated.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 4:20 PM MDT up reply actions
Irrevocable waivers take three days to clear...
so the timeline fits in this situation.
Eschew Obfuscation!
I believe he had been placed on waivers before he was designated for assignment.
The MLB transaction lists has him clearing and being outrighted the day after he was designated.
by Greg Stanwood on May 29, 2009 7:50 AM MDT up reply actions
I read your article!
^5
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 29, 2009 8:49 AM MDT up reply actions
So, for kicks...
… who do we want from the Phillies for Marquis? Probably a MLB ready bullpen arm?
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 4:22 PM MDT up reply actions
Ya
but with the way our Starters have been, who do you throw into the rotation is probably a bigger question.
I would go with a BP arm and a second baseman
Morales would eventually be taking over a spot vacated by Marquis.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 4:27 PM MDT up reply actions
in like a month
give Hirsh another shot, he’s looking good in the minors
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 4:27 PM MDT up reply actions
I still blame confidence
His control though is MUCH better than last season.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 4:30 PM MDT up reply actions
Well we're just talking about Hirsh here
No need to throw things back to generalities.
2008, he was sporting a 4+ BB9 in both AAA and the majors. He’s posting a 2.55 BB9 in AAA right now, and while that won’t DIRECTLY translate to MLB batters, it’s gonna be better.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 29, 2009 8:54 AM MDT up reply actions
Maybe Hynick should get the next shot
he has been our hottest pitcher, another strong 7 innings today. Only 3 hits, no BB’s, 14/6 G/O-F/O, and out of 103 pitches 73 were strikes. He is really on a roll. I know he’s another finesse guy, but he might be due the chance next.
It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.
I'd rather work with Hirsh
and make sure Hynick isn’t gonna be Reynolds v 2.0. I feel as if we have less to lose with Hirsh
But it’s not a bad idea, if he got the call, I wouldn’t hate it.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 29, 2009 8:56 AM MDT up reply actions
I'm demanding Carrasco
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 4:25 PM MDT up reply actions
I think Marquis for Carrasco
would be reminiscent of the Zambrano for Kazmir trade (ignoring how hard Kaz has sucked lately)
Probably won’t happen though…
SHHHHHH
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 4:27 PM MDT up reply actions
We'd probably end up with something silly like Marquis for Kendrick straight up.
Plus with us paying 75% of the contract. Ewww.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 4:30 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't pay for none of that contract
without Bastardo or Carrasco in return :crosses arms indignantly:
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 4:33 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't either.
Sadly, we don’t run the team. :(
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 4:39 PM MDT up reply actions
I'd probably be worse than the Monforts.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 4:46 PM MDT up reply actions
no, I think you'd be a lot better.
You (along with a lot of the Row, and maybe some unknown diehards that don’t know about here) would be able to look at it completely objectively, and not get feelings about “Friends” and such involved.
Plus, if you ever got too out of hand, and were about to make a bad descision, we could set you straight on here :-)
Haha
I can imagine the PR regulars gaining ownership of the Rockies, then all conspiring to fire each other so as not appear to be hanging onto friends.,
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 4:54 PM MDT up reply actions
If they/we ran the Rockies
the Rockies would be poorly run. Not that we’d make poor decisions, but (I’m assuming everyone’s like me) we’re all poor. We’d have a team of replacement level players. Still would be pretty awesome though…
That, and at least for me, I have no experience for running a business.
I could “consult” with the ownership regarding their decisions. That really is the extent of any skills I could offer a professional baseball team.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 4:58 PM MDT up reply actions
I wonder if my acumen for trades in fantasy
would carry over to real life, cuz then I think I’d make a pretty good GM…
Other than that I bring pretty much nothing to the table…
There's an idea
Four years ago, I traded my way (with strict trade rejection settings) into getting a starting lineup including Pujols, Soriano, Garciaparra, Blalock, Javy Lopez, Jacque Jones, Dye and Vernon Wells. With Peavy, Zito, Willis, Burnett, Lilly and Gagne. Obviously, I could GM ;-)
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 28, 2009 8:38 PM MDT up reply actions
Because my owner fired me for doubling the budget
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 28, 2009 8:44 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't think you understand how many terrible things I'd do to attain this
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 29, 2009 8:57 AM MDT up reply actions
This is true
Since I technically am unemployed, I have no assets to invest in the team…we could do a car wash or something…nationwide fundraiser. We might be able to buy this team in a few years.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 28, 2009 8:43 PM MDT up reply actions
Nice!! We could start a pet sitting business, too!
Colorado, meet Purple Row: The Colorado Rockies owners as of 2075, or somewhere around there.
Damn,
I’ll be 90 by then.
"If we never try, we shall never succeed." - Abraham Lincoln
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
Maybe,
but blernsball will probably overtake baseball in popularity by then.
"If we never try, we shall never succeed." - Abraham Lincoln
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
Wouldn't that make the Rockies MORE affordable?
Provided someone doesn’t move them to the newly thriving metropolis of Duquesne, Iowa by then.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 28, 2009 8:52 PM MDT up reply actions
Possibly.
Unless the Monfort family still owns the team and they seek the stars for the team.
"If we never try, we shall never succeed." - Abraham Lincoln
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
or the Moon!
antigravity baseball would own. exept no one would ever get a hit. hmm…. How would anyone win?
This made me laugh
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on May 28, 2009 8:41 PM MDT up reply actions
I think RMN would make a good manager, though,
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 4:46 PM MDT up reply actions
A good in-game manager?!
Oh my
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 29, 2009 9:05 AM MDT up reply actions
Hey what about me
is this some kind of subliminal message?? huh?
/just kidding :D
I love Greg Reynolds and I may be slightly ashamed to admit it.
You'd be the head trainer, as I suggested yesterday. :D
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 5:03 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah
I’m not too sure my one year of playing college softball for athletic powerhouse SLC really qualifies me for that job.
But hay i haz brainzez
(not like ZRMN)
I love Greg Reynolds and I may be slightly ashamed to admit it.
And a trigger happiness for the Z key.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 5:08 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm fairly sure
that is not on any list of job qualifiers anywhere. Unfortunately.
I love Greg Reynolds and I may be slightly ashamed to admit it.
I meant to put and etc. to the list
Of course I think you’d be management material, Silver! It’s just that whole thing with Greg Reynolds…it kinda scares me at times ;-)
Nah
It’s not nearly as scary as it looks outwardly. Trust me, I’d know when to have him riding the pine, i.e. until he shows he can pitch in the bigs worth a damn.
I love Greg Reynolds and I may be slightly ashamed to admit it.
Well, I'm sold.
Welcome to the managerial position.
by Greg Stanwood on May 28, 2009 6:36 PM MDT up reply actions
Woohoo.
I also recently discovered I now have the capacity to ban people and/or Big Brother the crap out of ‘em, so I’m riding high on this here power trip.
Speaking of which, I didn’t accidentally ban anyone, right?
Um, no need to be concerned.
/whistles
I love Greg Reynolds and I may be slightly ashamed to admit it.
yeah that was kind of my reaction too
Time to abuse NOT abuse power!
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 29, 2009 9:06 AM MDT up reply actions
I was thinking the same thing!
the what about ME part…not the what about Silverblood part.
I’d go old school like George Steinbrenner. I’d hire and fire managers faster then some people change towels.
And for the hell of it, I’d hire Billy Martin, and prop his corpse up in the corner. That should motivate em!
My head
would be stuck in a history book most of the time.
"If we never try, we shall never succeed." - Abraham Lincoln
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
well that's kind of important
learn from your mistakes, lest ye be doomed to repeat them
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 29, 2009 9:06 AM MDT up reply actions
Yeah,
but how does reading The Rifle Musket in Civil War Combat: Reality and Myth help with baseball?
"If we never try, we shall never succeed." - Abraham Lincoln
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
I read "Charlie Skedaddle" once
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 29, 2009 9:46 AM MDT up reply actions
which carrasco?
don’t come over here
Don't say nothing about A.J. Pierzynski without good cause , even if you do have one i will still kick your butt. As the young woman who believes he's better than most idiots around here that don't understand him. i like my menace. GO SOX! Women rule the world Men just live in it to do as we say.
by pierzynskirules on May 28, 2009 7:45 PM MDT up reply actions
Uh
the one who is in the Phillies system.
Please try and keep up.
;-)
(kidding)
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 29, 2009 9:07 AM MDT up reply actions
maybe it's happening as we speak.
just picture it: As I type this message, O’Dowd is walking up to a little podium in front of a small room of journalists. “The Monforts, the Front Office, and myself have decided to make the decision to release Clint Hurdle as manager effective immediately. We appreciate everything Hurdle has done for our team through out these past seven years, the highest point being the 2007 run. But, unfortuneately, all things must come to an end. We wish Clint the best, but we must move on. To take his place for the remainder of the season will be Jim Tracy, who has been the bench coach for the first portion of 2009.”
Hey, we can dream. Right?
"To take his place for the remainder of the season will be
Bobby Valentine…"
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 4:27 PM MDT up reply actions
The Marines haven't extended him yet
But they also won the Japan WS in 2007 and the Konami Cup (Japan WS winner v Korea WS winner) as well
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 4:32 PM MDT up reply actions
If they were going to do something
It would’ve been done by now. I honestly think the next press conference we hear is going to be the announcing of Hurdle and O’Dowds new contract extension, because after all an “unstable” clubhouse is obviously why this team is underachieving, so by giving Hurdle and extension, it would stabilize things.
I think I just threw up in my mouth.
guhhhh
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 28, 2009 4:33 PM MDT up reply actions
Well that is how the Monforts think.
Holliday was a Distractions so we had to trade him….. Hurdle’s contract situation is a distractions so we have to sign him to a new one…
Holliday was a "distraction"
cause he was going to make $12 million this year. THATS why he had to be traded.
The distraction rationale was complete BS
I still support the trade, but calling Holliday a distraction was foolish.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 29, 2009 9:08 AM MDT up reply actions
I am kind of holding to an idea
that it will be a late evening type of thing. Like with what happened with Melvin in AZ.
yes.
This way, we can do fireworks and a bonfire and those over 21 can come home from work and head to a bar and drink themselves silly.
It would be a win-win-win-win situation.
I don't know about fireworks.
It’s probably a move that needs to be made, but I don’t really see it as anything to celebrate over. We’re still probably not going anywhere this year, and it’s not a happy situation. Relief would probably be in order, but not much more. At least not for me.
This nicely sums up the state of things
I love Greg Reynolds and I may be slightly ashamed to admit it.
The really frustrating thing for me is
that by doing nothing it tells me that we’ve given up on this year and next year too. Honestly if we don’t make changes, bring in younger players and let them get used to major league baseball, we are setting ourselves up for this same situation next year. To me if we’re going to lose 100 games, let’s try and get some development out of it by getting our younger players exposure. But instead we’re sitting here getting older, and not better. As a baseball fan this is my biggest fear and it’s extremely frustrating to watch it play out in front of my eyes.
But we don't know they're doing nothing yet.
Sure, they haven’t made a move in manager. But if they’re going to make trades, now is not the best time to do that, anyway.
True
I wouldn’t want to hastily trade away assets without getting much in return. But what I’m trying to say is that if the FO is going to do anything they haven’t shown it.
Here's to hoping Francis has a speedy recovery...
Also
by no means do I want a knee-jerk reaction that ends up hurting us more in the long run.
If we were to do something just to placate the fans, why not file Hurdle and make Helton a player-manager. For what it’s worth I think he would be good.
Here's to hoping Francis has a speedy recovery...
I'd totally be down with that
gimmicky as it may be.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 29, 2009 9:29 AM MDT up reply actions
I can agree with some of all of you.
Confidence is a big problem on the team. It’s the players, it’s the pitchers, its the managers, and owners. In so many areas they have lost confidence in each other. Hurdle definitely created problems without a set lineup and job responsiblilites, the managers do a poor job of defense placement, players are pressing to keep a job or showcase for a trade, pitchers are not getting/listening to advise and players may not be listening to instruction. What will fix it? A trade here, a firing there, I’m certain the Monforts/O’dowd are looking at it all, but historically, this franchise is more willing to do nothing if it costs them ANYTHING. Any decision IS something, even if it doesn’t work, the players and fans would be willing to give it try, JUST MAKE A DECISION
rehost these on imageshack
or post the link. Hotlinking doesn’t always work well, some sites put up barriers against it.
Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies
by Andrew Martin on May 29, 2009 9:45 AM MDT up reply actions
You think you have it rough?
Out here on the east coast it’s 9:00, so we’ve had him for two more hours than you.
well, that's one more day we've got him.
That is sad. Truly, truly sad. I thought maybe they’d announce something in the middle of RAA or something crazy. but nope. nada. nothing. zippo.
Hurdle’s going to be our manager forever, isn’t he?
If anyone wants to move to American Samoa or points west
you could get rid of him a day earlier than the rest of us.
I think.
No records in the last 10 years should count.
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