Friday Rockpile: While Manny Ramirez serves suspension, NL West opens for other teams (or so some hope)

by Russ Oates on May 8, 2009 7:47 AM MDT in Rockpile Comment 67 comments

Who's saying what about Manny Ramirez's suspension? From this Troy Renck article:

"From his uniform number, to his uniform to his hair, he's a joke. A clown," said Hall of Famer Rich "Goose" Gossage, the most accomplished player in Colorado history. "To get caught with all the testing they do now, he's the village idiot. Unbelievable."

"For a team playing that well to have that happen, it's a bombshell," Rockies hitting instructor Don Baylor said. "To me, I just can't see why anyone would put something in their body that the team doctor or trainer hasn't checked out."

Troy Tulowitzki chimes in on what will happen in the NL West as a result of not seeing Manny until July:

"He's the best player in the division, so it's definitely going to impact them," Rockies shortstop Troy Tulowitzki said. "It opens up the division a little bit, but they have built up such a big lead there's a lot of catching up to do."

And there's the point. Manny will miss the next two months, but it's up to the other teams to take advantage of the situation. For the Rockies, that means finding consistency, which seems as far away as ever. Dan O'Dowd says he doesn't know what team is going to show up each night, and Clint Hurdle wants to "find a way to take care of what we can take care of." Easier said than done. Isn't Clint Hurdle being paid to make this team consistent in its play? Look at how long it took Hurdle to "officially" be concerned with Garrett Atkins.

What was it Jefferson wrote long ago?

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."

Take that how you want.

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Comments

Are you advocating the brutal murder of Clint Hurdle?

Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.

by Franchise26 on May 8, 2009 7:57 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Or perhaps that we take arms against the Rockies organization?

(Oops, I accidentally hit ‘post’ too soon on that first one, so it looks like I’m actually serious.)

No, in all seriousness, somebody – and I don’t care who – needs to send a message. It can be a firing, demotions, whatever. I just want to hear somebody in a suit and tie tell me that the way the Rockies are playing right now isn’t even close to acceptable and that changes will be made off the field if they aren’t made on the field.

Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.

by Franchise26 on May 8, 2009 8:01 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

by PinchHitLancePainter on May 8, 2009 8:06 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Did the D backs fire Bob Melvin?

If so, then Hurdle’s should be feeling some heat.

by moomacher on May 8, 2009 8:10 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Yes they did

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on May 8, 2009 8:58 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

LA's Schedule

gets tougher over the next 8 weeks (the tenure of ManRams suspension). They play the Phillies twice, have an east coast road trip (Dodgers struggle on those traditionally and his bat absence could be crucial). Additionally they are scheduled to play three IL series on the road where his missing bat may come into play.

However, the NL West outside of them is very shaky at best. The Giants have some arms but little offense, SD is basically a one bat team with a couple of pitchers (one of which may likely get shipped out), AZ has a total shakeup with a manager with no experience. Their offense is abysmal. We all know the Rockies story of consistently inconsistent.

Bottom line is the Dodgers could be had but only if one of these teams can put together a big streak. Not sure any of them have the capacity for that.

by PinchHitLancePainter on May 8, 2009 8:22 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Yesterday was the strangest I've seen in baseball ever

Not only did we have manny-gate. But we also had a manager firing and a Taveras home run!

by mkorpal on May 8, 2009 8:59 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Manager Firing = Win

They’ve made it clear that they want to win. I mean, not as clear as the Dodgers, but you get my point.

Wonder how long it’ll take us to do the same.

Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies

by Andrew Martin on May 8, 2009 9:05 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's eerie

How close the D-Backs situation is to ours. Two years ago, those two teams seemed poised to take their place as perennial NL contenders. Neither team has seen their young talent develop as planned. One team responds by firing their manager, the other team responds by… uh, moving Garrett Atkins down in the order?

O’Dowd and Hurdle have been through a lot together. They’re close. I get that – honestly, I do. It can’t be easy to fire a guy you consider a friend – these guys are human, after all. But sooner or later you’ve gotta do what’s best for the team, not best for your buddy.

Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.

by Franchise26 on May 8, 2009 9:17 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

they won't

there’s just no way

Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies

by Andrew Martin on May 8, 2009 9:23 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

if O Dowd can't pull the trigger

than the Monforts might have to consider getting rid of both.

by moomacher on May 8, 2009 9:27 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

No disagreement here

After all, didn’t the father offer to shoot Old Yeller?

Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.

by Franchise26 on May 8, 2009 9:30 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

D-backs and Rockies

have always been tied as franchises, and oddly so for expansion teams.

I don’t think Hurdle will be fired this year. I thought it should have happened before the ship went down, or as it was starting to take on water.. Now…I’m not sure it matters much. A manager may be worth 5 wins on a season, but that’s not enough. Ultimately it comes down to talent level and execution (and like like John McKay I’m all for it!), more than managing, and the Rockies don’t have enough talent or execution.

But I think both Hurdle and O’Dowd are going to go down together at the end of the season.

by Redhawk on May 8, 2009 9:27 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

One month before the end of the season....

would be the BEST time to jettison both if they are to go down. I would refer you to the San Francisco Giants of 1985. That was the first SF Giants team that lost 100 games under manager Jimmy Davenport and GM Tom Haller (both former Giants). That team didn’t care, had a casual attitude and found new ways to lose every night.

The GIants owner, Bob Lurie, decided to get rid of both several weeks BEFORE the season ended in order to put the new people in charge long enough to evaluate what they had, what the problems were, and how to correct them. He hired Al Rosen as GM and Roger Craig as manager. The following spring, Rosen decided to bring in two young rookies to take over the right side of the infield, Robbie Thompson and Will Clark. In 1986, the team had the biggest improvement of any team in baseball, going from 62 wins to 83 wins. The following year, 1987, they made the playoffs with 90 wins. After 83 wins again in 1988, they went to the World Series in 1989 with 92 regular season wins. This surge in the Giants’ fortune after years and years of losing and mediocrity after the Mays/McCovey era of the 60’s/early 70’s, set the Giants up for a sale to Peter MacGowen and a signing of one Barry Bonds, which led to the eventual construction of Pac Bell Park, and saving the franchise for San Francisco.

None of that may have happened if Craig and Rosen weren’t brought in during the final month of 1985. If we are to end the O’Dowd/Hurdle era, the new blood should be in place by Labor Day.

by GoRoxGo on May 8, 2009 5:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Close?

Despite the problems Tulo and Stewart have had over the first month of the season, to me there’s a big difference between how the Rockies young players have fared vs. the Diamondbacks. The D-Backs’ OPS+ was 73 so far this year! That is an entire team of Tulo’s (OPS+ = 74).

Maybe the club still makes a change just to make a change, but I don’t see the Rockies’ situation as that similar to the D-backs’.

by FooMan on May 8, 2009 12:35 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think I understand.

Is “Fire Hurdle” just the rally cry to help with these bitter losses, or is there an actual expectation that the Rockies would win more games with a different manager? Is it just an actions-have-consequences type thing, so fire the guy in charge, or does managing have a bigger effect on the score than I’m noticing?

by Bryce on May 8, 2009 9:31 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

For me,

It’s more of a “Hey, we’ve tried damn near everything, maybe it’s time for a shake-up in leadership” move. I don’t expect a new manager to make the Rockies world-beaters any more than I expected Hurdle to, but I do expect a certain amount of accountability and leadership ability that I’m not seeing right now.

Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.

by Franchise26 on May 8, 2009 9:34 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

And

a little irrational hope for a Jack McKeon type payoff…

"Better move your rental cars, I am about to take BP."
-Glendon Rusch

by Hizilla on May 8, 2009 9:40 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly.

I don’t expect that the Rockies will BE better with a new manager. I just can’t take the same old acceptance of the status quo, wait-and-see-if-it’ll-get-better kind of mentality. I’m almost literally embarrassed to say I root for the Rockies because people think they’re a AAAA team that accepts mediocrity as a way of life…maybe they do, maybe they don’t, but they sure act like it.

by Squeaky on May 8, 2009 9:52 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I get what you're saying,

But

I’m almost literally embarrassed to say I root for the Rockies

That’s a bit much, don’t you think? Fandom shouldn’t be painful. If it’s a great shame to you to root for this ballclub in bad times, there are 29 others, some of whom are more consistently successful.

Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.

by Franchise26 on May 8, 2009 9:59 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

It’s not like we’re the Nationals here. Or the Detroit Lions, or the Oakland Raiders, or a host of other joke franchises.

I know why people are frustrated, but embarrassment seems like a bit of an overreaction to me.

by holly96 on May 8, 2009 12:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Remember:

WE HOLD THE 2007 NL PENNANT

It’s not the WS, but we’re not a complete laugh of a franchise.

Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies

by Andrew Martin on May 8, 2009 12:25 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

And even if

we are a joke of a franchise, isn’t that all the more reason for the true blue fans to rally to the flag? Didn’t we make fun of all the out-of-nowhere fans suddenly on the bus in October 2007? If its lame to jump on when we’re rolling, its lame to jump off when the wheels are loose.

by Teekalong on May 8, 2009 12:42 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm a relatively recent baseball fan

I’ve been flying the Rockies flag since 2004

Before that it was Avs all the way

Before that it was the Utah Jazz (I lived in Utah during the early-to-mid 90s, can you fault me?)

Before that it was Broncos ride on

Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies

by Andrew Martin on May 8, 2009 12:43 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pretty much...

True colors show in times of peril and what not.

Now let’s just hope that the keepers of the flag realize that loyalty is faltering in many quarters and something should be done to shore it up.

by Rox Girl on May 8, 2009 1:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

also very true and appropriate

by Teekalong on May 8, 2009 2:34 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Squeaky's fandom

She’s a fan, trust me. The whole reason she feels this way is because she loves the team and the guys so much. She can’t watch the games because she DOES care too much. We’re all frustrated, and that’s understandable. So don’t criticise her for being upset with a troubling lack of accountability. We all are.

I love Greg Reynolds and I may be slightly ashamed to admit it.

by Silverblood on May 8, 2009 1:51 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is where the line is getting crossed

We’re fans of a baseball team. When we love the players too much to actually want to watch the games and stuff, we’ve definitely crossed the line from being sports fans to being creepy obsessed cat lady peoples.

Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies

by Andrew Martin on May 8, 2009 3:56 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

She's not creepy or a cat lady.

It’s just the way she works things out. She has a particular set of ways she thinks about things. And not obsessed, actually. Just odd. But that’s why I love her.

I love Greg Reynolds and I may be slightly ashamed to admit it.

by Silverblood on May 8, 2009 4:05 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

You are too cold numbers guy.

Get your head out of the statbook and watch some games. :)

No, we put our hearts into this as fans, at least some portion of it, and putting it in to get ripped out so frequently hurts, sometimes too much to watch when the team falters like this. If you have no emotional investment in the team, I can’t see how you can actually be a “fanatic”, which is where the term fan comes from.

Being an obsessed creepy cat lady people would be a degree or five beyond that, but still a fan. I think you err, here.

by Rox Girl on May 8, 2009 4:26 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I must second.

There are so many things to appreciate about baseball – statistics, strategy, personalities, batting music, and especially warm beer and cold hot dogs :P but not being emotionally invested, to one degree or another, would seem to be missing out on a lot of the ‘fan experience.’

I say, care as much as you want, cry or don’t, cat lady or not, and we’ll all hope the Rockies win, together.

by Bryce on May 8, 2009 5:42 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

In 1140 games of managing the Rockies

Hurdle has a .462 winning percentage. Even if you throw out the Preston Wilson years, he has a .488 winning percentage since 2006. I think we’ve given him ample opportunity to find success here. At some point, you have to go a new direction. And I don’t think that new manager is going to magically make this a 90 win team, but I’m not sure why everyone wants to keep an unremarkable and historically unsuccessful manager around.

by moomacher on May 8, 2009 10:00 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think 'everyone' is quite right

Hell, I was one of the last of the Hurdle defenders around here last season. And I’m still not sold that anybody we find is going to do a dramatically better job, but it’s worth finding out at this point if this team’s as talented as A) we think it is and B) the front office claims it is.

Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.

by Franchise26 on May 8, 2009 10:03 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah I wasn't aiming that at you or anything

I just don’t see what the downside is at this point. Either the team is horribly underperforming because Hurdle is an idiot, or as you point out, the talent just isn’t there. We might as well find out eh?

by moomacher on May 8, 2009 10:05 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not dead set against firing Hurdle the way I was earlier

however, I’m not sure I see the point to be honest. We are out of the race this year and we might as well let Hurdle finish the season and see if he gets any traction whatsoever, then if he doesn’t, his contract his over and we hire someone new, no extra money spent.

It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.

by smokinRox on May 8, 2009 12:33 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Out of the race?

It’s May 8th. We still have over 100 games left to play.

"Admirably obsessive." - Uni Watch, March 24th, 2009
NA34 | HK | RMN

by oo_nrb on May 8, 2009 1:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I saw a recent discussion

about what it would take to make up that ground on the Dodgers and it would be nearly impossible. We are obviously in it until we are mathmatically eliminated, but it would take not only a complete turnaround by the Rox, but an implosion by the Dodgers and I think they have too much talent to expect that. The hole is very big right now, and even w/out Manny they have the best offense in the West, now if Hudson and Furcal suddenly get hurt, which has been known to happen, now things change. At this point I think we can play .500, which is not bad, but not enough to do damage in the division.

It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.

by smokinRox on May 8, 2009 1:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess I'm just

an eternal optimist. It’s a long summer, the Dodgers always seem to get more injury-prone as the season wears on, and April and May are always the worst months for the Rockies. I know we have a lot of ground to make up…but we’re down by, what, 7.5 or 8 games? With over 100 games left to play, 7.5 games is nothing. The Dodgers have been unbelievably hot at home right now, but that has to cool off – they aren’t going to go 79-2 at home this year.

This is the same core group of players that rattled off an 11-4 record during a stretch in the middle of last season. A similar run, with a run in the opposite run by the Dodgers, means the entire division is in play again. Every team is susceptible to hot and cold streaks – as soon as the Dodgers hits theirs, everything is new again.

BTW, I’m not directing this just at you, more at the general negativity on the board. Like I said, I’m an eternal optimist, and see a silver lining in pretty much everything when it comes to the Colorado Rockies.

"Admirably obsessive." - Uni Watch, March 24th, 2009
NA34 | HK | RMN

by oo_nrb on May 8, 2009 1:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have always been that way too

and maybe I’m just saying what I’m saying to protect myself from disappointment, because I still sit in front of a TV, computer, or radio hoping my boys will pull it together and go on a streak, but they keep bringing me back to reality, and I’m not sure what I have left to hold on to. I just don’t believe getting rid of Hurdle will solve that problem is all. Here’s to hoping that big win streak starts tonight!

It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.

by smokinRox on May 8, 2009 3:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh and to save my wife too from crazy mood swings

when they lose. She just can’ t understand why I watch something that makes me so mad or I worry about something I have no control over, which are both good questions, but I guess thats what it means to be a fan.

It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man.

by smokinRox on May 8, 2009 3:30 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just wondering...

How talented do we think this team is?

Entering the season, I thought this might be a .500 or so team that could make the playoffs if everything broke right.

I mean, last year’s team was 74-88. There weren’t a huge amount of changes. Holliday’s gone, but then again, CF stands to improve over Taveras horrible year. Fuentes is gone and Buccholz is hurt. They picked up Marquis, which was big, but entering the season, he had a career ERA+ of 96. As a somewhat homer-prone guy with a low K-rate, I wasn’t expecting all that much out of him.

by FooMan on May 8, 2009 12:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

The real talent on this team is still a couple of years from starting to peak

If you’re talking about current playoff grade players, that is top five in the NL position players or top 25 starting pitchers, I think we currently qualify at two positions, catcher and left field, but believe it or not, we have three SP’s that currently qualify in Jimenez, Marquis and JDLR. That means we’re losing it in the bullpen and the non-first base section of the infield. The pen should be something that can be fixed and might just be ineffectively utilized.

Whether we have the right talent available in the infield is what’s becoming the big important question of the season. So far, the answer’s been a pretty resounding no. Tulo and Stewart need to take the team on their shoulders right now, but their ineffectiveness and Hurdle’s marriage to Atkins is sinking us fast. If Tulo and either Atkins or Stewart don’t rebound, the team has no chance. I don’t think Barmes is really as huge an issue right now as the left side of the infield.

Is it enough talent to compete? Probably. The NL still is pretty pathetic outside of LA.Our situation isn’t too far different from other teams that have been a bit better at catching or forcing the breaks to go their way. I do think a shift in leadership is necessary, though.

by Rox Girl on May 8, 2009 1:43 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

top five in the NL position players or top 25 starting pitchers…believe it or not, we have three SP’s that currently qualify

Based on what parameters/statistics?

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on May 8, 2009 3:48 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was just using FanGraphs run value page

Jimenez is #14, Marquis #22 and JDLR #23. Jimenez and Marquis actually get a bump from there for adding offensive value as well.

by Rox Girl on May 8, 2009 4:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Okay,

that all makes sense in a “what the hell do we have to lose” kind of way, and certainly there should be accountability. I guess I don’t focus that much on Hurdle because the ownership and the front office is what it is, and they’ll hire accordingly. We can have someone else take over, but if they Rox keep under-performing, it’ll just be “Fire [New Manager]” and that seems tiresome to me. But I think I understand the impulse.

by Bryce on May 8, 2009 10:09 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

And maybe so

But we won’t know if we want to Fire [New Manager] until we hire him.

The other option is stick with Hurdle

Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies

by Andrew Martin on May 8, 2009 10:14 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

All coaches are hired to be fired

It’s a cliche because it’s true.

Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.

by Franchise26 on May 8, 2009 10:18 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wonder...

what the historical statistical correllation between the team’s seasonal winning percentage and the firing of the manager is, before and after.

by Bryce on May 8, 2009 10:24 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think what you should expect out of a new manager is

consistency. Consistency in the line up, consistency in the batting order. Consistency in the approach to the game. The only consistency we have is this team is consistently inconsistent.

Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field?
Author: Jim Bouton

by pedalpusher on May 8, 2009 10:57 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

My query

is really more about the FO. I mean, if O’Dowd really thinks that this team is talented enough to compete, doesn’t he have to lay the blame at Hurdle’s feet? If he does not, is that not a tacit admission that the team as constructed is not that good?

The third alternative seems to be the way they are going: the talent is there, the managing is fine, but the players are all underachieving. Let’s just wait around for the boys to get it together…………

I don’t think Hurdle deserves to stay, but I don’t think DOD does either, so putting this decision in his hands gives me no confidence.

by Teekalong on May 8, 2009 12:08 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you had to fire 1, but not both, who could you can?

And who would you hire?

Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies

by Andrew Martin on May 8, 2009 12:26 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well

I’m not sure I can answer the question the way you want, because I’d fire O’Dowd and then let the new GM make a decision on the manager, and I expect that would mean Hurdle would be out too. In terms of who I would replace O’Dowd with, its fair to say I don’t have a running list of good GM candidates. The list would probably start with guys who would not have drafted Reynolds #2.

by Teekalong on May 8, 2009 12:38 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're looking too deep here - well sort of

Just pick one or the other. Hurdle goes, O’Dowd stays. O’Dowd goes, Hurdle stays.

Who is their replacement?

I’m not trying to pick an argument so much as saying “offer a solution and we’ll talk about it”

Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies

by Andrew Martin on May 8, 2009 12:42 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Or let me change the question a bit

You can fire O’Dowd or Hurdle right now, and pick a replacement. Or you can ride out the season and fire them both.

Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies

by Andrew Martin on May 8, 2009 12:45 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Again

I have no idea who I’d replace these guys with, its not something I have any legitimate ability to evaluate. I get where you are going – don’t cry if you don’t have a soloution to the problem. But sitting where I sit, how could I possibly suggest someone?

In any case, as I’ve said, I’m by no means a Hurdle apologist and I think its time for new blood in the dugout, but I’m also of the opinion that the FO has, by inaction or lame action or safe action or cheap action, killed all of the momentum coming out of 2007. There was a real opportunity to take this franchise to new heights, to move into the “respected” status described above. That didn’t happen, quite the opposite really. We’re back to square one. So to answer the question, if I can only lose one guy, bye Dan.

by Teekalong on May 8, 2009 1:06 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think that's what I more wanted to flesh out

Point at one means pointing at the other which points back at the first one. It’s a circular thing. So I figured I’d see where your real beef is.

I’ve said this before, but I don’t have a problem with O’Dowd. But at the same time, maybe a complete shakeup IS in order.

I personally think we should romance Kim Ng from the Dodgers if we are to look for a new GM, and then see where she wants to go with a Manager.

Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies

by Andrew Martin on May 8, 2009 3:59 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Heh

Over on ESPN.com, they have a segment called “Cold Hard Facts” and one of the questions was “Which player needs to step up in Manny’s absence?”

The answer was…I’m not kidding…Juan Pierre.

Isn’t “needs to step up” a tagline for his entire career?

"Admirably obsessive." - Uni Watch, March 24th, 2009
NA34 | HK | RMN

by oo_nrb on May 8, 2009 1:21 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Ha

he’s stepped as far up as his zippy legs will carry him. Juan Pierre will bat like .290/.335/.365 anymore, and while his IF/Bunt hit ability will woo you, as well as his SB threat, he’s a bigtime out waster, despite his tools.

Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies

by Andrew Martin on May 8, 2009 4:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's had 200+ hit season

4 times, leading the league in hits in 2006, and had 196 hits in 2007. He also carries a .301 batting average

I’m not sure how this is a big out waster, or “needs to step up”

Sure he can’t throw, and really should be a DH in the American League. But the guy could hit. The only question is at 31 (will be 32 in August) is if he’s going to show any age decline and lose a little running speed, which might lower his productivity.

by Redhawk on May 8, 2009 4:19 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

.301 CAREER batting average

sorry…missed a key word there.

by Redhawk on May 8, 2009 4:20 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's an 'out waster'

Because when he isn’t getting hits, he’s making outs. He doesn’t walk. I believe Pierre led the league in outs made in 2006 and 2007, the last two years he was a regular.

Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.

by Franchise26 on May 8, 2009 4:37 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

A lot of that is just that idiotic notion that managers have

that speedy center fielders have to bat lead-off. If he’s not given as much opportunity to waste outs by the lineup, he doesn’t lead the league in that category.

by Rox Girl on May 8, 2009 4:45 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

he also wouldn't lead the league in Hits either

as lead off hitters get more AB’s over the course of the year

by Redhawk on May 8, 2009 5:16 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Since 2005, he's been creating outs more than two thirds of the time

That 67% out percentage would be better than Barmes, Tulo or Atkins for the Rockies so far this season, but worse than our other four starters and everybody but Baker, Q and Murton on our bench. Expected production would have Atkins and Tulo passing him, though, but it’s dubious if they’ll actually live up to expectations this year.

For the Dodgers, if he drops back to that 67% out level, it’s lower than everybody else in that lineup except for maybe Blake in a normal year. Manny’s been creating outs only 51% of the time since he’s been in LA, so that’s 16 additional outs per 100 plate appearances, or almost one per game.

by Rox Girl on May 8, 2009 4:44 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

So it's really an OBP thing and not a batting average thing

is that correct? The only out come besides getting a hit or a walk would be an out (or a Sacrifice, which is also an out). So his career OBP of .347 is the issue, and not his .301 batting average?

The .347 career OBP by the way, puts Pierre at 77th on the Active Players on base percentage (though I assume there is a minimum AB’s for this list but I don’t see it listed)

by Redhawk on May 8, 2009 5:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

That .347 would be great,

And when Pierre was above that, up to 2005, he was a very valuable player. In the four seasons since, however, his highest OBP has been .331, and that just isn’t that valuable without some extras. Pierre’s baserunning ability to some extent would be the extras, but his defense negates his running, so all the sudden you’re back at that .330 OBP hitter, which just isn’t that valuable any more. Given his age and the fact that speed is the first thing to go, and speed is what helped him get those high OBP’s early in his career, I don’t see him having a renaissance that returns that kind of value to him. If you do, I’d like to know what makes you think he is capable of being better than he has been the last five seasons.

by Rox Girl on May 8, 2009 6:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

well, there was a reason I used career numbers

last year he didn’t play much. So far I haven’t seen a huge drop in his steal ratio (with out looking too closely). I’m not saying he’s still a super star, but if you read the posts above, it looks like there is a sentiment that he’s a bum, and always has been.

I’m sure 1/2 the league wishes they had a 4th OF that was Pierre’s level (with the bat)

by Redhawk on May 8, 2009 10:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs