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Around SBN: The Week In Worst: When Baseball Goes Wrong

Midseason Managerial Changes

With the recent dispatching of Arizona manager Bob Melvin increasing the debate of whether or not Clint Hurdle should be subjected to the same fate, I became inspired to take a look at what effect the act of replacing a manager midseason generally tends to have on a team. The results were generally consistent, and while they don't reveal everything about the situation, they do serve as some kind of insight.

Before posting the results, I should point out that the players are still, in my eyes, far more responsible for a team's success than a manager is. The actual effect of the managerial changes is not necessarily revealed here, but as I said, the results still have patterns.

So, here we go.

There have been a total of 12 midseason managerial changes since the 2004 season:
2004: 2
2005: 3
2006: 0
2007: 3
2008: 4

2008 Mariners: John McClaren 25-47 .374
2008 Mariners: Jim Riggleman 36-54 .400 Improvement: .026

2008 Blue Jays: John Gibbons 35-39 .472
2008 Blue Jays: Cito Gaston 51-37 .580 Improvement: .108

2008 Brewers: Ned Yost 83-67 .553
2008 Brewers: Dale Sveum 7-5 .583 Improvement: .030

2008 Mets: Willie Randolph 34-35 .493
2008 Mets: Jerry Manuel 55-38 .591 Improvement: .098

2007 Orioles: Sam Perlozzo 29-40 .420
2007 Orioles: Dave Trembley 40-53 .430 Improvement: .010

2007 Reds: Jerry Narron 31-51 .378
2007 Reds: Pete Mackanin 41-39 .513 Improvement: .135

2007 Astros: Phil Garner 58-73 .443
2007 Astros: Cecil Cooper 15-16 .484 Improvement: .041

2005 Royals: Tony Pena Sr. 8-25 .242
2005 Royals: Bob Schaefer 48-81 .372 Improvement: .130

2005 Reds: Dave Miley 27-43 .386
2005 Reds: Jerry Narron 46-46 .500 Improvement: .114

2005 Pirates: Lloyd McClendon 55-81 .404
2005 Pirates: Pete Mackanin 12-14 .462 Improvement: .058

2004 Diamondbacks: Bob Brenly 29-50 .367
2004 Diamondbacks: Al Pedrique 22-61 .265 Improvement: -.102

2004 Astros: Jimy Williams 44-44 .500
2004 Astros: Phil Garner 48-26 .649 Improvement: .149

Here are the important notes:
Contrary to what I (thought I had) discovered earlier, all but one of these changes led to an improvement (even if a small one) in that team's winning percentage. The largest improvement was Phil Garner, whose 2004 winning percentage was 15% larger than Jimy Williams' (ironically, Garner would later be a midseason firing victim himself).

The only negative switch was the Diamondbacks' Bob Brenly, who had a 10% larger winning percentage than his replacement, Al Pedrique. Interesting that the Diamondbacks, who have had the worst midseason firing history in the past 5 year period, would be so quick to jump on squishing out Bob Melvin.

So, initially, this suggests that the managerial change can bring nothing but good for a team. But hold your horses.

Of these 12 cases, only two times did the team in question make it to the playoffs. Both of these cases, the 2004 Astros and the 2008 Brewers, the team was at or above .500 when the manager was replaced. The 2008 Brewers are a unique case too, because their firing took place when only two weeks of play remained in the season. Therefore, the best performance of any of these teams is interestingly the one who kept their manager the longest.

Remember, this data only suggests results, not confirms them. It must be kept in mind that each of these firings had a different reason. Ned Yost was fired after a good season, when the Brewers' final month performance was below expectations, while it is widely suggested that Willie Randolph was fired due to his controversial relationship with the Mets' Front Office.

So, assuming the pattern continues, what does this mean for us? Presumably, it means that the Rockies are more likely to perform better than they have so far (which is something that could also happen under Hurdle anyway, this data does not account for so-called bad managers who got to keep their jobs, and whether or not they turned their performance around.) It also means that more likely than not, just as I have believed, that the Rockies' performance will not change dramatically. Even though it is likely to change for the positive, it is unlikely that this will be a successful season, even if we pull the trigger.

The average improvement in these cases of midseason managerial change between 2004-2008 is .067, or about 6-7% improvement. It has reached as high as 15%, and been as low as a 10% decrease in productivity. It's a wide and unpredictable range.

Somebody pointed out in another thread on the subject of firing Hurdle: what have we got to lose? Well, if this data means anything at all, it really is not a lot. But we also do not have a lot to gain either. Unfortunately, while this data is interesting, I don't see how it succeeds in enlightening us too deeply on the decision. For example, Hurdle's performance from late May 2007-September 2007 is a far better revival of a bad team than ANY of the managerial changes have been. That said, how much of that was the players? How much of it was luck? Too many factors to determine. We certainly can't expect it to happen again, but we can't expect it to happen with a managerial change either. Even with the improvement, the bad teams tend to stay bad teams.

Anybody have any thoughts?

Eat. Drink. Be Merry. But the above FanPost does not necessarily reflect the attitudes, opinions, or views of Purple Row's staff (unless, of course, it's written by the staff [and even then, it still might not]).

Comment 27 comments  |  2 recs  | 

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A quick note...

… I wrote and posted this originally for and on the official Rockies message board at MLB.com. The references I make to other people’s posts are ones there, not here at PR.

by Greg Stanwood on May 9, 2009 2:43 PM MDT reply actions  

Thanks for this

This is definitely high quality stuff, and it points those whose rebuttal is “Well, who would you replace him with?” Look at the names of the managers that came in and replaced the fired managers…not a lot of big names or legitimate experience, yet the teams consistently improved.

Sometimes a change for the sake of change really is positive

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on May 9, 2009 2:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

So if a mid-season managerial change shows minimal improvement

are there any cases of a mid-season general manager change?

Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field?
Author: Jim Bouton

by pedalpusher on May 9, 2009 2:58 PM MDT reply actions  

2003

I brought this up yesterday – but in 2003 the Marlins were 16-22 and fired their manager. They went on to win the world series. Granted, they had some guys that have gone on to pretty successful big league careers (Beckett, Burnett, Penny, Lowell, etc). Agree with PF – sometimes change for the sake of change is what a team needs, can be a catalyst for greater things.

"Better move your rental cars, I am about to take BP."
-Glendon Rusch

by Hizilla on May 9, 2009 3:07 PM MDT reply actions  

Jack McKeon fits in with the replacement types

He hasn’t done anything since. Quite frankly, it’s entirely possible that this team would play better with Todd Helton managing the rest of the way. Or Mark Strittmatter. It just doesn’t seem to matter, the spark is lit

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on May 9, 2009 3:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'll do it cheap

and I know enough to pinch hit for a pitcher if he’s not going back into the game the next inning.

So that puts me one up on the current employee

by Redhawk on May 9, 2009 3:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

Dude.

Jack McKeon turns 80 this year. I had to double check to see if he was still alive. Hard to do much when you’re retired. I agree though – that it needs not be a replacement type – a Fredi Gonzalez type. I will say this though – if and when there is a change, I think it needs to come from outside the orgainzation, someone who can shake up the entire culture. I won’t complain if they promote Baylor, but say installing someone from the FO in the dugout (a la Arizona) would be dumb dumb dumb.

"Better move your rental cars, I am about to take BP."
-Glendon Rusch

by Hizilla on May 9, 2009 3:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

Good stuff Wolf....

and it does point to a jolt for teams who replace managers. I also agree that it won’t turn a bad team into a great team. But are we really a bad team? I think we have talent and we’ve even outscored our opponents this year, which points to the potential.

BTW a 6 – 7% uptick is not as small as it sounds. That’s a 9 or 10 game improvement pro-rated to a 162 game season. So, if we made a change now or 20% into the season, an average uptick could improve us toward .500, not enough to contend perhaps, but a return to respectability that could set our confidence in the right direction for next year.

by GoRoxGo on May 9, 2009 4:07 PM MDT reply actions  

We're a bad team in terms of performance.

In my eyes, we are not an UNTALENTED team, but until e play like a talented team, a talented team can still be a bad team.

by Greg Stanwood on May 9, 2009 4:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

Olney

mentioned in his column today that he thought a major organizational shakeup was in the works – although he made it seem like that was speculation.

"Better move your rental cars, I am about to take BP."
-Glendon Rusch

by Hizilla on May 9, 2009 4:15 PM MDT reply actions  

That would make sense

I’d be a bit surprised if he got inside information before Renck, Ringolsby, Saunders and Harding.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on May 9, 2009 4:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

Personally...

Unless they get through this homestand above .500 (for the homestand), I think Hurdle will be gone.

"Better move your rental cars, I am about to take BP."
-Glendon Rusch

by Hizilla on May 9, 2009 4:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

I am wondering why....

Manny Acta is STILL the manager of the Nationals when they have the WORST record in baseball and have the past couple seasons? Why is he still managing and yet Bob Melvin got the ax from Arizona? I sure hope Clint Hurdle isn’t the next one to go. I LIKE Hurdle, always have!

"Augie Augie Augie...OY OY OY!"

by rockkstarr11 on May 9, 2009 8:11 PM MDT reply actions  

Acta isn't a bad manager

and he has a garbage team that features Adam Dunn being awesome.

He’s completely hamstrung by a front office that makes us look downright masterful.

Matt Murton status: Freed
Garrett Atkins status: Not Traded
Clint Hurdle status: Still Employed by the Rockies

by Andrew Martin on May 10, 2009 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

"Better move your rental cars, I am about to take BP."
-Glendon Rusch

by Hizilla on May 10, 2009 6:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

+100

Jim Zorn, 55. Sean Miller, 40. AJ Hinch, 34. Notice a pattern here?

by DbacksSkins on May 12, 2009 9:48 AM MDT up reply actions  

+1

Jim Zorn, 55. Sean Miller, 40. AJ Hinch, 34. Notice a pattern here?

by DbacksSkins on May 12, 2009 9:48 AM MDT up reply actions  

And to completely counterract your point...

Aj Hinch is 0-3 as the D-Backs manager. They have lost all three by one run.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on May 9, 2009 10:21 PM MDT reply actions  

My point here wasn't to suggest that managerial replacements were necessarily a good thing.

But this is especially funny, as the Dbacks last managerial change ended up being a negative move too.

by Greg Stanwood on May 10, 2009 8:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

Oh I know you weren't actually making an argument

as much as just presenting facts…but it is funny.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on May 10, 2009 8:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

1-3 now.

But he was 1-2 at the time, not 0-3.

Jim Zorn, 55. Sean Miller, 40. AJ Hinch, 34. Notice a pattern here?

by DbacksSkins on May 12, 2009 9:49 AM MDT up reply actions  

For some reason I thought he was on the bench Thursday

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on May 12, 2009 12:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

Nope.

Friday was his first game as manager.

Jim Zorn, 55. Sean Miller, 40. AJ Hinch, 34. Notice a pattern here?

by DbacksSkins on May 12, 2009 12:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

as a counterpoint...

keep in mind that managers get fired when the team is underperforming—whether by random fluctuations, bad luck, or something actually under control of the manager—is debatable. My guess is that this “improvement” has little to do with the actual change in manager and a lot to do with dumping managers at a point when the team is underperforming.

I’d guess you could take 20 random managers whose teams are underperforming badly and not fired and a large percentage of them would show improvement in the second half.

Having said all that, Hurdle’s in game logic often baffles me—I wouldn’t have a problem if they got rid of him.

by DenverBears on May 11, 2009 8:32 AM MDT reply actions  

Great points

I think Cito Gaston would do wonders for this team, at least he couldn’t make it any worse. I wish the Monforts could fire themselves and take their lackey in O’Dowd with them and leave Denver and Colorado. They are a disgrace to baseball, the great City of Denver, and the people of Colorado and the Rocky Mountains who love baseball.

"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman

by Broncoman on May 12, 2009 12:57 AM MDT reply actions  

The Rox will hire Gaston right after the Broncos hire Bill Belichick

Seriously, dude, it’s tired, take Tom Petty’s advice and don’t come around here no more unless you’ve got something to contribute.

Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.

by Franchise26 on May 12, 2009 4:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

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