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Matt Herges: Does the Mitchell Report make him unwelcome to us?

Matt Herges, having been signed to a minor league contract, could provide good depth to the front end of the Colorado Rockies bullpen. In a past Counting Rocks (plugplugplug) I pointed out the upsides to having Herges around in the pen.

However, it has been mentioned by a couple of posters that his connection to the Mitchell Report makes him the kind of character that we don't want around. A PED user isn't welcome in the Colorado Rockies organization, at least not on the playing field.

My opinion is simply that it's water under the bridge. He's never failed a test, he's not suspended, so I don't care what he did in the past (in terms of bad behavior, etc), and he should be able to help the team win now.

What is your opinion?

Poll
Despite the fact that he's signed already, should Herges be a part of the Rockies clubhouse considering his name on the Mitchell Report and connection to PEDs?
Yes
59 votes
No
16 votes

75 votes | Poll has closed

Eat. Drink. Be Merry. But the above FanPost does not necessarily reflect the attitudes, opinions, or views of Purple Row's staff (unless, of course, it's written by the staff [and even then, it still might not]).

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A great many people

have done things in their past that they aren’t particularly proud of now. If you own up to it and sincerely apologize for it, it’s over. Personally I think Matt has done both things. Done is done. (This does not include heinous crimes such as murder, rape, etc.)

I’m glad he’s back with the Rockies, and hope The Herge can help us in the pen. He also knows what it’s like to be the playoff chase (and in the playoffs), and could well be a benefit in that regard as well.

Free Seth Smith, damnit!

by rockhead on Jul 17, 2009 10:11 AM MDT reply actions  

Maybe I'm over-touchy about this

As I think I mentioned once before, I’m a big cycling fan and that’s very much at the forefront of the fight against drugs. It’s a bigger deal there, the suspensions are much tougher and forgiveness is much harder to find, and I think that’s how it should be.

Takes PEDs is obviously nothing like murder etc. But it is a flouting of the most fundamental ethical underpinnings of sport in general. The cheat is using unfair means to put himself above people who play the game fairly, and thus earning more privilege, money and fame (and, by extension, taking it away from the honest players).

I think it’s seldom justifiable to end someone’s career for one mistake, no matter how big that might be. But punish them properly – less than 1/3 of a season? 2 months? That’s barely a deterrent. Punish them in a way that really hurts. And let them live with the consequences to their reputation, honour and that snatched-away Hall of Fame spot they’d been aiming at since high school.

The Rockies as an organisation pride themselves on playing the game the way it should be played, with a strong moral and respectful base. Not employing drug cheats should, I think, be part of this approach.

by biondino on Jul 17, 2009 10:18 AM MDT reply actions  

Just to present another point

Glenallen Hill was on the Mitchell report. Do we fire him from 1B?

If we did, could we hire Rickey Henderson?

Chris Iannetta status: DOOM
Seth Smith status: FREE SETH SMITH
Matt Murton status: Prisoner Exchanged for CarGon
Mike McCoy status: FREE MIKE MCCOY

by Andrew Martin on Jul 17, 2009 10:20 AM MDT up reply actions  

oh I know

there’s no tone of voice here, it’s not meant to be an attack. I’m incredibly neutral on the issue.

Chris Iannetta status: DOOM
Seth Smith status: FREE SETH SMITH
Matt Murton status: Prisoner Exchanged for CarGon
Mike McCoy status: FREE MIKE MCCOY

by Andrew Martin on Jul 17, 2009 10:40 AM MDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure how you can be, though

Either drugs are bad, or they aren’t, surely – what’s the deal with neutrality? I guess I can understand if you feel the badness is mitigated by things like time, apologies, good work for the community etc. – is that what you mean?

The thing baseball has to deal with is whether there should be an amnesty. Everything pre-2004 is forgiven, everyone gets a fresh start – and THEN the powers that be smite with extreme prejudice anyone cheating. Of course, it’s a bit late – and of course it essentially legitimises 130 years of taking what the hell you want, to the detriment of the clean guys – but at least it would be a year zero for attitudes towards PEDs.

Without an amnesty of a sort – or a line in the sand that actually means something – baseball will always be uncertain, always distrustful, and the attitudes of fans and players alike will vary hugely based on little more than their own moral compass (and their won greed for success).

by biondino on Jul 17, 2009 10:47 AM MDT up reply actions  

Because I separate Baseball and steroids and Drugs

I don’t think players should use them, I don’t think that young athletes should use them, etc etc etc, but I also don’t care if Barry Bonds took bull steroids – the guy was flat out talented, even without the steroids.

Herges may have screwed up, but he hasn’t been proven guilty, and he hasn’t failed anything since we signed him in 07.

So yeah, drugs are bad, mmmmmkay? But at the same time, I’m not going to be able to tell Rafael Palmeiro how to live his life. If someone is rung up on failing an MLB sanctioned drug test, hell yes ring them up. But the stuff in the past? I’m all about the amnesty.

Chris Iannetta status: DOOM
Seth Smith status: FREE SETH SMITH
Matt Murton status: Prisoner Exchanged for CarGon
Mike McCoy status: FREE MIKE MCCOY

by Andrew Martin on Jul 17, 2009 11:39 AM MDT up reply actions  

I don't know if this is helpful, but I think Pete Rose should be in the HoF

On the basis that he never bet against a team he was playing for or managing at the time. In other words, his actions did not affect the legitimacy of any game.

If it’s ever proven otherwise, then bye bye.

by biondino on Jul 17, 2009 10:50 AM MDT reply actions  

oh I don't even care about that

Pete Rose broke a rule that has been clearly stated since forever – No Gambling. It’s in every clubhouse – No Gambling.

MLB has done a poor job in defining what qualifies as cheatin’ steroids, until recently, I guess. Many players took things that were legal when they did them (Mark McGwire) and I don’t think a lot of these guys should be penalized. In the public domain, sure, but in terms of the annals of baseball history? no.

So basically, Pete Rose broke a clearly defined rule. Barry Bonds may have broken a rule that maybe was a rule and maybe wasn’t or was it hang on let’s check the books and raid Balco and [grey area].

Chris Iannetta status: DOOM
Seth Smith status: FREE SETH SMITH
Matt Murton status: Prisoner Exchanged for CarGon
Mike McCoy status: FREE MIKE MCCOY

by Andrew Martin on Jul 17, 2009 11:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

If you let Rose in, don't you have to let Joe Jackson in? He was found not guilty.

"I've had pretty good success with Stan Musial by throwing him my best pitch and backing up third." - Carl Erskine

by pedalpusher on Jul 17, 2009 12:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

same with John Cusack

Chris Iannetta status: DOOM
Seth Smith status: FREE SETH SMITH
Matt Murton status: Prisoner Exchanged for CarGon
Mike McCoy status: FREE MIKE MCCOY

by Andrew Martin on Jul 17, 2009 12:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

Oh you mean Buck Weaver?

"I've had pretty good success with Stan Musial by throwing him my best pitch and backing up third." - Carl Erskine

by pedalpusher on Jul 17, 2009 1:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

probably

I forgot the name and figured that was a more amusing answer

Chris Iannetta status: DOOM
Seth Smith status: FREE SETH SMITH
Matt Murton status: Prisoner Exchanged for CarGon
Mike McCoy status: FREE MIKE MCCOY

by Andrew Martin on Jul 17, 2009 1:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

D.B. Sweeney played Shoeless Joe

"I've had pretty good success with Stan Musial by throwing him my best pitch and backing up third." - Carl Erskine

by pedalpusher on Jul 17, 2009 4:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

So did Ray Liotta right?

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 19, 2009 6:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

yep. but different movie.

"I've had pretty good success with Stan Musial by throwing him my best pitch and backing up third." - Carl Erskine

by pedalpusher on Jul 19, 2009 8:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks

I think we are looking at this from the wrong angle. Let’s just remember what a kind and gracious person Herges is. You get an insight into a person when you look at the memo line on their checks for drugs.
“Thanks”

The poster formerly known as Blake20th.

by NewMexicanSteven on Jul 17, 2009 11:25 AM MDT reply actions  

PEDs in baseball

I have no problem having Herges as a Rockie. PED’s in baseball was and still is an issue, but I’m not sure why everyone wants to punish those that were caught, while doing nothing to those that weren’t caught, and we the public will never know if they did or did not take PED’s.

There was no across the board testing. Yes it was illeagal after awhile (roids) but Speed has been used by baseball players going back to the 60’s. There was a don’t ask, don’t tell policy. Now that the winds of opinion have changed, I’m not sure those should go back and punish those now for what they did in the past.

There should be a “don’t do it again, everyone gets to redeem themselves” and move on. We don’t brand people, and make them guilty forever in America. Americans use to not be so concerned about who some one once was…but who they were now….and who they will be in the future.

Start Seth Smith! Free Eric Young Jr.!

by Redhawk on Jul 17, 2009 11:57 AM MDT reply actions  

+1

Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.

by RdRnnr on Jul 17, 2009 12:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

The Manny Factor

I have talked to a few Dodger fans, and they all couldn’t wait until Manny returned. They cheered for him in SD. These are the same people that bood Barry Bonds.

I am disapointed in Herges, but I am also willing to forgive him. Now the issue is clear.

If it comes out that a prominent Rockie has been caught the same way Manny has been caught, I will not cheer him when he comes back. I want that player traded.

by brian8065 on Jul 17, 2009 12:49 PM MDT reply actions  

Line in the sand?

I’m not exactly sure when, but in my mind anyway MLB has finally drawn a line in the sand. For violations prior to the line being drawn, I think its forgive and forget. The use of PEDs was so wide spread that I’m sure borderline talents and pitchers trying to hold on to a career (Herges) felt they needed them to compete. Isn’t that what led Bond’s ego to drive him to Balco?

It seems MLB has finally made it clear that it wants it’s players clean and users will be punished – and therefore the playing field should even out. Now that the line is drawn – I won’t have tolerance for players who use PEDs – and that is why the handling of the Manny situation disgusts me. I feel he should be thrown out. (Or maybe I just hate Manny).

by GoesTo#11 on Jul 17, 2009 1:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think I'm approaching this with indifference

since MLB has done a pretty sloppy job of handling this entire PED issue it makes then entire discussion very hazy. Is Herges off the stuff? If he is, he’s good to go.

I’d prefer that no one ever used any PED’s but at the same time it’s hard to fault the guys who used the stuff before it was illegal and I always hear that a lot of guys used stuff to help come back from injury, which if, true makes them even harder to fault.

The Rockies need some oldschool purple/white striped high socks. The team’s problem is it’s lack of swagger. I feel strongly that these socks will provide the swagger necessary to tap the potential that are the Rockies.

by Resolution on Jul 18, 2009 3:48 PM MDT reply actions  

Didn't Herges that HGH?

in other words…a very well marketed placebo? or was it speed?

I know it wasn’t roids (which personally, I don’t have an issue with either)

Start Seth Smith! Free Eric Young Jr.!

by Redhawk on Jul 18, 2009 7:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

HGH isn't considered a PED?

The Rockies need some oldschool purple/white striped high socks. The team’s problem is it’s lack of swagger. I feel strongly that these socks will provide the swagger necessary to tap the potential that are the Rockies.

by Resolution on Jul 19, 2009 9:48 AM MDT up reply actions  

officially yes

unofficially…it’s a big hoax, and a marketing gimmick. HGH, hasn’t been proven to affect a grown person. Some snake oil salesmen wish to have you believe it’s the very fountain of youth.

Start Seth Smith! Free Eric Young Jr.!

by Redhawk on Jul 19, 2009 12:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

So then

what does it do other than get players in trouble?

The Rockies need some oldschool purple/white striped high socks. The team’s problem is it’s lack of swagger. I feel strongly that these socks will provide the swagger necessary to tap the potential that are the Rockies.

by Resolution on Jul 19, 2009 8:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

Does it at least

help come back from injury?

The Rockies need some oldschool purple/white striped high socks. The team’s problem is it’s lack of swagger. I feel strongly that these socks will provide the swagger necessary to tap the potential that are the Rockies.

by Resolution on Jul 19, 2009 8:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

in some people

they have shown muscle mass gain, greater joint movement, rebound from fatigue faster, etc (basically the good stuff from roids, but to a far lesser degree). But it’s not been “proven”. Some think it’s just a placebo affect.

I’m no serious weight lifter, but I do work out and lift, and I’m reading about supplements, and HGH has it’s true believers, and others that flat laugh. It’s expensive, and it’s not really proven yet. If it really worked…every guy in the gym would be taking it, or some form of it.

Start Seth Smith! Free Eric Young Jr.!

by Redhawk on Jul 20, 2009 1:00 AM MDT up reply actions  

Regardless of the rules, or the law

PEDS are Cheating. Capital lettter intentional. Intentional, pre-meditated cheating at the expense of clean players. That’s why it’s so offensive.

And you don’t mind Bonds cheating because he’s so talented? That logic is warped dude! A) so Herges and his like should be treasted differently from the superstars, with the superstars getting a free pass, and b) if he’s so bloody talented why does he cheat? (see also Rodriguez, Alex)

I have MORE of a problem with the cheating stars as they’re the ones who change the face of the game, the records that baseball, more than any other sport, clings to passionately. McGwire’s home run record? Worthless. Roger Maris must be a bitter man. And is Albert Pujols, for whom Maris’s record is looking attainable but McGwire’s not, happy to admit that he’s second best to a cheat?

by biondino on Jul 19, 2009 10:16 AM MDT reply actions  

See the thing you're missing from my argument

is that I just don’t care all that much about people using them. They shouldn’t, but they do, what am I supposed to do?

Even without PEDs, I’d have still watched and appreciated Bonds for his disgusting amount of raw skill.

Chris Iannetta status: DOOM
Seth Smith status: FREE SETH SMITH
Matt Murton status: Prisoner Exchanged for CarGon
Mike McCoy status: FREE MIKE MCCOY

by Andrew Martin on Jul 19, 2009 1:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well wasn't part of the problem

that what a lot of these guys were taking wasn’t yet illegal? So then it wasn’t technically cheating. Doesn’t necessarily explain why the stars used it. But then you read something like the Mitchell report where a lot of the names are marginal major leaguers and you think these are guys who have only completed high school or have only some college, or are immigrants probably trying to support a family here and support their family back home and you realize these guys probably haven’t spent a lot of time thinking about what they’d do if they weren’t playing baseball and have spent more time thinking about how they never want to go back to the minors again.

Not saying it’s right for them to take PED’s but I can’t blame them for taking PED’s that weren’t illegal and I definitely wouldn’t act as if they acted with an intent to defile the game as some people do.

I still also think if everyone was going to react this way to PED’s, the MLB should have been way more proactive in managing this entire situation – I really don’t think it’s a players/morals problem but more of an institutional problem. Even the Mitchell report itself was only good because it brought a lot of attention to the issue. It was pretty flimsy as a deterrent or true attempt to rid the sport of taint.

I think something than angers me more is Donte Stallworth getting drunk and killing someone and getting 24 days in jail while Michael Vick gets a two year prison sentence and a two year ban from football or whatever. Not saying what Vick did was fine but if you do the math, none of that really adds up.

The Rockies need some oldschool purple/white striped high socks. The team’s problem is it’s lack of swagger. I feel strongly that these socks will provide the swagger necessary to tap the potential that are the Rockies.

by Resolution on Jul 19, 2009 8:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

Speaking of Michael Vick

There’s another former (almost) Rockie who’s going to be available from today. And he’s a free agent! How would all y’all feel about us giving him a contract?

by biondino on Jul 20, 2009 3:05 AM MDT up reply actions  

can he play?

I personally don’t like how there seems to be a punish a person forever, for their mistakes. I know where it comes from, forgiveness is viewed as a sign of weakness, when in fact it’s a sign of strength.Society has a need to feel superior, and better, by making sure that they stay better than anyone that’s made a mistake. It means we the members of that society have made no mistakes, have never committed a crime, or hurt others.

 If a person paid his debt to society, I see no reason to brand them with a scarlet letter, and make them a pariah for the rest of their living years. I even heard people say that Vick should be killed for what he did or imprisoned for the rest of his life. Has our society lost all ability to forgive? To accept one who has made mistakes?

America and the Christian society that it was bulit on, should be about forgiveness, about second changes. About not who you were, or where you come from but about who you are now, and where a person is going.

Start Seth Smith! Free Eric Young Jr.!

by Redhawk on Jul 20, 2009 9:39 AM MDT up reply actions  

I have no problem with Vick playing

I think he’s a scumbag, but gee, the NFL isn’t full of those kind of players already, now is it

(That isn’t to let other sports off the hook, but we’re talking about Vick.)

Chris Iannetta status: DOOM
Seth Smith status: FREE SETH SMITH
Matt Murton status: Prisoner Exchanged for CarGon
Mike McCoy status: FREE MIKE MCCOY

by Andrew Martin on Jul 20, 2009 9:48 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think we can forgive

Without being Christian. But the rest of your post makes a lot of sense. The question is, can we both forgive and banish the player from the game? It sounds silly, but how would you feel about hiring a convicted rapist to give your wife personal training? He’s done the time, so he’s AOK? I dunno. If you have a cheat’s mentality, then what you tend to regret isn’t your action, but getting caught.

I’m not always against cheats recovering both their employment and their integrity, but I need to see proof of remorse etc. For a start they need to admit it, and it also helps if they actively join the fight against it. Each individual circumstance is different.

by biondino on Jul 21, 2009 4:03 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think labeling them all

“cheats” oversimplifies the issue and unjustly vilifies the players – this issue is not nearly that black and white.

Again, I think the burden of blame can be placed on the MLB rather than the morals of players (which have been suspect throughout the sports entire history).

The Rockies need some oldschool purple/white striped high socks. The team’s problem is it’s lack of swagger. I feel strongly that these socks will provide the swagger necessary to tap the potential that are the Rockies.

by Resolution on Jul 21, 2009 10:16 AM MDT up reply actions  

I honestly have no idea

what to make of the Michael Vick situation. I don’t approve of what he did but I remember reading that joke-Carl Pavano blog and whoever wrote that thing referred to Vick as a political prisoner which just seems more and more closer to the truth than anything else…

I also would bet that he’s a plus defender in the OF but I don’t think he’d really be able to hit a baseball consistently.

But hey, at least he doesn’t use PED’s! Although I can’t say that with any degree of certainty.

The Rockies need some oldschool purple/white striped high socks. The team’s problem is it’s lack of swagger. I feel strongly that these socks will provide the swagger necessary to tap the potential that are the Rockies.

by Resolution on Jul 20, 2009 11:59 AM MDT up reply actions  

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