Roy Halladay Revisited - now with potential names!
by Andrew Martin on Jul 21, 2009 1:37 PM MDT
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PrintI read this on MLBTradeRumors:
bq. Jon Heyman at SI tweets that the Mets rejected a package of Fernando Martinez, Bobby Parnell, Jonathon Niese and Ruben Tejada for Roy Halladay.
Definitely a serious package there, the Mets thought it was too much.
Let's try and make a direct comparison for our intents and purposes. Those who know our farm better than I, please chime in at any point and make commentary on this.
Bobby Parnell could compare to Brandon Hynick. In college, both pitchers had similar HR9 and K9, but Hynick's WHIP was far lower than Parnell's thanks to a nearly halved BB9. Granted, Hynick pitched twice as many innings in college ball, but there's still something to be said. Parnell is 23, Hynick 24, and Parnell just cracked the majors this season, and Hynick is close enough as it is.
Jon Niese looks similar to a Jeff Francis type, a guy whose fastball really won't overpower you, but can drop a solid changeup in. While they might not be a perfect match, Esmil Rogers could possibly be a match in terms of talent, or maybe we try and toss a couple guys like Connor Graham and Sam Deduno.
Ruben Tejada's a bit tricky to try and compare to. He's 19 in AA, and while he's not crushing the ball, he's putting up a solid OBP. We don't have a direct comparison, but I wonder if Hector Gomez is overpaying or if someone like Delta Cleary is underpaying too much.
Fernando Martinez is the toughest one to really find a match for. Would Carlos Gonzalez be an analogue here, or would it take Dexter Fowler or Jhoulys Chacin to try and match talent levels?
So while I'm still pretty sure this is a huge amount of prospects to send for a pitcher we probably won't land, but it's something to discuss, anyhow.
Brandon Hynick, Esmil Rogers, Delta Cleary, Carlos Gonzalez for Roy Halladay.
Eat. Drink. Be Merry. But the above FanPost does not necessarily reflect the attitudes, opinions, or views of Purple Row's staff (unless, of course, it's written by the staff [and even then, it still might not]).
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I think probably Cleary would have to be Gomez
the Blue Jays are known to be looking for a short stop, otherwise, I think this is pretty close as a matchup.
That rumor got totally debunked. We don't know exactly what they want
though they’d be crazy to ask for Jimenez and Stewart.
I've been reading today that a lot of NY sources think Minaya would've said yes to that deal
If there were any truth to it.
We don’t know EXACTLY what they want, but it’s a starting point.
Chris Iannetta status: DOOM
Seth Smith status: FREE SETH SMITH
Matt Murton status: Prisoner Exchanged for CarGon
Mike McCoy status: FREE MIKE MCCOY
by Andrew Martin on Jul 21, 2009 2:25 PM MDT up reply actions
Oh, and the more the Rockies pitching does better
the less I want a Halladay trade at this point, and to be greedy with the prospects. Damnit, I like Chacin, Rogers, Friedrich too much. Rogers is looking more and more likely to help out the team this year, Friedrich is unhittable, and Chacin is a seriously great all around pitcher.
By the way, Parnell is a power pitcher, Rogers is better than Niese, Gomez is Tejada’s equal if not superior, and Martinez is the team’s top prospect, but injured.
Meh
As much as I’d love to have Halladay, I’m fully entrenched in the “don’t trade for Roy” boat. It’d make for a great story, but I don’t think that it would be good for the franchise to mortgage a potentially great future for a year or year and a half of the guy. I’ll take the guys that we have in the system.
Then again, if I knew that it would guarantee a World Series, then I wouldn’t be opposed to it. Unfortunately, I don’t know that it would.
"Any newspaperman who speaks of the 'music' of rolling presses is either faking or he has had so much to drink that he will next sentimentalize appendicitis."
-- Roger Kahn
I'd be all over a halladay trade.
But in the end, we don’t have the cash to make it happen. I also have my doubts that Halladay would accept a trade to the Rockies. Yes, I know, he is a local kid, but even when the Rockies do well, they are out of the spotlight. Anything short of a world serious victory would bring less press than Melo passing gas or Marshall eating a cheeseburger.
A more likely target, if you want to make a big splash, is Cliff Lee. He is significantly cheaper and can not void the trade. If we could move Carlos, Hynick, and two others for him, I would be all over it. However, the problem, like with Halladay, is we would need to blow them out of the water to get the trade done. It would need to be Chacin/Friedrich, Gomez, Rosario/McKenry, Hynick, and maybe one or two others. I’m not a guy to get attached to prospects, but that is too much for a guy who will make 15 more starts this year.
he isn't a FA after this season, is he?
Chris Iannetta status: DOOM
Seth Smith status: FREE SETH SMITH
Matt Murton status: Prisoner Exchanged for CarGon
Mike McCoy status: FREE MIKE MCCOY
by Andrew Martin on Jul 21, 2009 3:37 PM MDT up reply actions
i pick that nonsense up
Chris Iannetta status: DOOM
Seth Smith status: FREE SETH SMITH
Matt Murton status: Prisoner Exchanged for CarGon
Mike McCoy status: FREE MIKE MCCOY
by Andrew Martin on Jul 21, 2009 3:49 PM MDT up reply actions
Halladay *could* demand a trade at the end of this season
for being dealt in the middle of a multi-year contract.
"Good is not good when better is expected." -Vin Scully
Purple objects in mirror are closer than they appear.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Jul 21, 2009 3:59 PM MDT up reply actions
if he is traded at all.
"Good is not good when better is expected." -Vin Scully
Purple objects in mirror are closer than they appear.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Jul 21, 2009 4:00 PM MDT up reply actions
Oh yeaaaa
He has a full no trade clause right?
Coors is the last place anyone wants to get traded to. Bummer.
The Rockies need some oldschool purple/white striped high socks. The team’s problem is it’s lack of swagger. I feel strongly that these socks will provide the swagger necessary to tap the potential that are the Rockies.
The reason why Rockies fans think he'd come to Coors is because he grew up in Colorado
by bballrox4717 on Jul 21, 2009 6:45 PM MDT up reply actions
I wonder
if that ever works. I doubt it will with Halladay and it sure didn’t with Teixeira going home to Baltimore…
The Rockies need some oldschool purple/white striped high socks. The team’s problem is it’s lack of swagger. I feel strongly that these socks will provide the swagger necessary to tap the potential that are the Rockies.
NY outbid Baltimate and Washington, only Boston came close to their offer
plus, since we’re in front of the wild-card, we’re in position to win, another of Halladay’s wants.
by bballrox4717 on Jul 21, 2009 10:59 PM MDT up reply actions
Baltimate?
did I miss a joke?
Chris Iannetta status: DOOM
Seth Smith status: FREE SETH SMITH
Matt Murton status: Prisoner Exchanged for CarGon
Mike McCoy status: FREE MIKE MCCOY
by Andrew Martin on Jul 22, 2009 9:08 AM MDT up reply actions
no, I just suck at typing :P
Baltimore**
by bballrox4717 on Jul 22, 2009 11:35 AM MDT up reply actions
Halladay
I guess the wager is…….would you bet that Marquis, Hammel & De La Rosa continue pitching this strong the rest of the year? Or would you deal a few guys out of a system with depth for one of the top 3 pitchers in baseball the next 1 1/2 years.
I’m in the boat that I enjoy the ride that Marquis, Hammel & Rosa have been on, but I don’t trust them. I don’t trust our rotation in a playoff series if its Cook, Jimenez, Marquis…….at the same time, if we’re trotting out Halladay, Cook, Jimenez, i think we become the NL favorite or at least 1A/1B with LA.
If our goal is to make the playoffs, we can do that without Halladay. If our goal is to win the WS, then I think you need to be serious about making a trade. When every serious WS contender is kicking the tires on a Halladay deal, then you should be too.
The thing is, with Halladay, if they were to trade him, they want a prospect who could eventually replace him
Now who do you think in the Rockies organization comes close to being good for Halladay? There are two people: Ubaldo Jimenez, and Jhoulys Chacin. Any deal would have to start with one of those two. Throw Jimenez into the equation and this deal becomes a lot easier to put out, and we lose less prospects. However, we lose the closest thing the we have to an ace for someone who walks away after 2010. If we center a deal around Chacin, it becomes harder to make a deal, and our farm system takes a hit. We may lose a hitter from the lineup, Stewart being the most likely. We also lose Gomez and Rosario and another good pitching prospect. That’s five players for 1 and a half years, and we also subtract by inserting Atkins back in the lineup full time. One may insinuate that the Rockies can afford to lose Gomez and Rosario + because of Iannetta and Tulo, but this is not true. There is no guarantee that they are crazy skilled like they are in years to come. Tulo could revert back to 2008 form, or Iannetta could continue to hit for low average and have injuries. What then? There’s also the fact that Chacin is one of THE best prospects in baseball. Next year, he could step into the rotation and pitch like a ROY candidate. Think for the future, because the five star young pitchers we have: Jimenez/Chacin/Morales/Rogers/Friedrich may become of the best rotations in baseball. I know, it hurts to know we could have Halladay, a hometown guy, but the Jays are just waiting for some team who wants Halladay so bad that they give up the future. I don’t believer the proposed Mets deal one bit, because that’s a package for an All Star pitcher, not THE best pitcher in baseball. Look at the Philles and what they might be forced to give up (Drabek, Brown, Taylor, Happ) or the Dodgers (Kershaw) and wonder to yourself: Is it worth it in the end?
by bballrox4717 on Jul 21, 2009 5:11 PM MDT up reply actions
A few things
First, the trade doesn’t work if we give up Jimenez or Stewart. The point is to improve for this year’s playoff race, not to hurt it. The only player on the ML roster I’d be willing to give up is Carlos Gonzalez, but he hasn’t exactly done enough at the ML level to make a believer out of people. That said, an offer of Chacin, Gomez, McKenry & another “B” grade arm like Weiser, Hynick or Roe would get the deal done.
Second, Chacin doesn’t project to be an ace. He has a ceiling of a #2 or #3 starter (if he reaches it). There’s no sure thing here. Yes, I’m quite glad we kept Jimenez but we could have gotten a lot in return for Morales a few years ago and now it looks like his future is in the bullpen. Halladay is a sure thing, these other guys aren’t. Say what you want about the Florida Marlins, but flags fly forever. They have two rings by “going for it” and we have none. THe NL is weak this year and adding an arm like Halladay would be enough to put this team on par with the Dodgers and Phillies in the hunt for the NL berth into the World Series.
If your team has a shot now, I say take it. I consider McKenry & Gomez both expendable due to MI and C depth in our system. As for Chacin & the “B” arm…..TNSTAPP (“There’s no such thing as a pitching prospect”). Go for the sure thing.
If you listened to any of the Rockies rumors surrounding Halladay
they asked for Jimenez/Stewart /plus/plus
by bballrox4717 on Jul 21, 2009 6:41 PM MDT up reply actions
rumors are rumors
Rumors also say that the only way Dodgers do a deal is if either Billingsley or Kershaw are included in the deal.
Don’t believe it……rumors have almost never proven to be true this far away from a trade.
True, it's early
but it’s actually been confirmed that JP asked for Kershaw when the Dodgers called him. The Blue Jays want the guy with the best stuff in the organization, and for us, it’s Jimenez. Seriously, I would advocate for such a deal if the price came down, but JP is shooting for the world in this trade, because he needs sure things, and if he screws up, it’s his job. He needs this deal to turn out like the Teixiera trade or the Bedard trade.
Oh, and my supposed offer if I had to make one would be Chacin/Hammel/Gomez/one of McHenry or Rosario/Holcomb.
by bballrox4717 on Jul 21, 2009 10:45 PM MDT up reply actions
It's not about what you would give up for Halladay
it’s what the Blue Jays want from you for Halladay. This is why no deal has gotten close yet, because their asking price is absolutely ridiculous.
The ceiling of the #2 or #3 for Chacin came before this year, he’s ranked to be better now.
by bballrox4717 on Jul 21, 2009 6:44 PM MDT up reply actions
Chacin
Baseball America recently put out their mid-season Top 25 prospects. Chacin didn’t make it. Both Rogers and Chacin were in the Top 50 but finished outside the Top 25. Chacin does not project to be a #1 pitcher (as much as I’d like him to be).
Chacin was 30, Rogers was like 48 or something like that
I think that he was the 10th best pitching prospect overall. Plus, he’s still developing his pitches, so it’s tough to put out a true projection out for him.
by bballrox4717 on Jul 21, 2009 10:32 PM MDT up reply actions
"Still developing his pitches"
You realize every pitcher on that list is still developing his pitches right?
All I’m saying is that 2 years ago Morales was the best left-handed pitching prospect in the game. Where is he now? Middle relief. There’s no sure thing with these guys that they pan out.
well he's in middle relief
because we have better, more polished starting options. It’s not as if Morales is forever in middle relief, there’s still potential for him to make the rotation next season.
Chris Iannetta status: DOOM
Seth Smith status: FREE SETH SMITH
Matt Murton status: Prisoner Exchanged for CarGon
Mike McCoy status: FREE MIKE MCCOY
by Andrew Martin on Jul 22, 2009 9:17 AM MDT up reply actions
You say
“middle Relief” like its a bad thing. A solid arm in the pen is still a very good thing. And something the Rockies need..not another #4 starting pitcher
Start Seth Smith! Free Eric Young Jr.!
The point I was trying to make....
was that Morales was the best left-handed pitching prospect in the majors 2 years ago. We could have packaged him in a trade for a pitching upgrade.
Now we have Chacin & Rogers. They might become the next Jimenez….but they also might become the next Morales (bullpen) or Tsao (and get a career-threatening injury prior to making the majors).
Well it's not as if he is without value now
He’s not in the bullpen because it’s all he can do. He’s still a pitching prospect for us, and he’d be in the rotation if it weren’t already crowded.
Chris Iannetta status: DOOM
Seth Smith status: FREE SETH SMITH
Matt Murton status: Prisoner Exchanged for CarGon
Mike McCoy status: FREE MIKE MCCOY
by Andrew Martin on Jul 22, 2009 12:45 PM MDT up reply actions
Oh, and Friedrich was right after Chacin at 32
by bballrox4717 on Jul 21, 2009 10:33 PM MDT up reply actions
Exactly....
We have three guys who look great. No reason not to flip one of them at the deadline to help the team this year. The only thing I know for 100% certain, is that 3 years from now, Chacin, Rogers & Friedrich won’t all be great ML starters. It just doesn’t happen that way.
One will turn out really good, one will turn out better in the bullpen and one will get injured or flame out.
New Report: Rockies to mke an offer for Halladay!
On Wednesday night SportsCenter a reporter from the Toronto Star reports that “the Rockies were going to make an offer for Halladay” Also Toronto was going to scout some Phillies minor league pitcher. A reporter from NY, said that the Mets were going to offer a package of 4 prospects, but none were considered “top” prospects.
Looks like Toronto’s GM has scared off trade partners.
Start Seth Smith! Free Eric Young Jr.!
hmmmmm?
I don’t know if this is sarcasm or not, my sarcasm detector sucks :P
by bballrox4717 on Jul 22, 2009 4:43 PM MDT up reply actions
no...it's real
on ESPN sportcenter tonight, they had a Report from the Toronto Star (I didn’t get his name) on the phone. They asked him about Halladay and what his status was. He said what I wrote above. ESPN then went to a reporter on the phone from NY about the Mets
Now is it more legit then the Pirates rumors? I don’t know…I’m just passing on what I just heard.
Start Seth Smith! Free Eric Young Jr.!
I don't know what to say to this
because everything in my mind says not to believe it.
by bballrox4717 on Jul 22, 2009 4:48 PM MDT up reply actions
Mine too which is why I had to post it here.
the Toronto Star Reporter seemed to imply that the Jays scouting the Phillies pitcher was as he said “to generate interest, and to increase options”. Like they don’t have a lot of options or interest with out generating a little from the Jays side.
That’s what I meant when I added Looks like Toronto’s GM has scared off trade partners. If it’s the Rockies and luke warm interest from the Phillies, and half assed from the Mets, this isn’t going to be the job saving blockbuster that the Jays GM was hoping it would be.
Start Seth Smith! Free Eric Young Jr.!
I gotta believe O'Dowd
he came out and just straight up said we weren’t dealing for Halladay. I’d believe my own guys before any national media outlet.
by bballrox4717 on Jul 22, 2009 7:33 PM MDT up reply actions
Ohh please....all GMs do this
You never want to say you are trying to trade for a guy, because if you fail, then it shows lack of confidence in someone like Hammel or JDLR. This is standard practice in the “GM Handbook”….deny, deny, deny.
Think about it, O’Dowd says we aren’t going to make an offer. So when we don’t trade for him, no one says anything. If we land him, O’Dowd looks like a genius.
If O’Dowd says we’re going to try and get him……and we don’t…..everyone talks about how O’Dowd didn’t give up enough to try and get him.
O’Dowd admitting we’re trying to go after Halladay doesn’t help O’Dowd at all. If anything, it opens up a scenario where it hurts him. When it comes to trade rumors, don’t believe anything you hear from the GM OR the reporters. Seriously….don’t believe anything.
He also said Hurdle wasn't getting fired.
Chris Iannetta status: DOOM
Seth Smith status: FREE SETH SMITH
Matt Murton status: Prisoner Exchanged for CarGon
Mike McCoy status: FREE MIKE MCCOY
by Andrew Martin on Jul 23, 2009 8:50 AM MDT up reply actions
If the Rockies are serious about the post-season
They have to make an attempt. If nothing else to block Philly or LA from getting him. We cannot be serious about winning a post-season series if we’re relying on 3 starts from Marquis and Hammel/JDLR.
If the Rockies can get Toronto to take Atkins as part of the package, that would seriously help the money situation in this year’s budget.
Updates!
MLB.com’s Ken Gurnick passes on comments Dodgers GM Ned Colletti made this morning on KABC Radio. Colletti says the Jays want two or three current Dodgers, including a young pitcher, or five or six prospects.
I’m guessing Kershaw and Martin were the starting points, or maybe Kershaw and Broxton
Jon Heyman of SI.com says the Phils are “trying hard” to obtain Halladay. He’d be surprised if they don’t acquire him.
I don’t see how they do it without Drabek.
Chris Iannetta status: DOOM
Seth Smith status: FREE SETH SMITH
Matt Murton status: Prisoner Exchanged for CarGon
Mike McCoy status: FREE MIKE MCCOY
Further rumors
Danny Knobler of CBS Sports says the Phillies remain the favorites to acquire Halladay, but the teams don’t appear to be close to completing a deal.
Knobler says the Brewers are “basically out” of the Halladay talks because they don’t want to give up Alcides Escobar or Mat Gamel. Boston’s representatives also left Toronto today.
Chris Iannetta status: DOOM
Seth Smith status: FREE SETH SMITH
Matt Murton status: Prisoner Exchanged for CarGon
Mike McCoy status: FREE MIKE MCCOY
by Andrew Martin on Jul 24, 2009 3:05 PM MDT up reply actions
Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor, Jason Donald and Lou Marson.
is what the Jays are considering accepting.
Chacin/Rogers, CarGo, Gomez, and Rosario easily tops that. Come on DOD! If the Jays want that crap then give them those four!
by bballrox4717 on Jul 24, 2009 4:10 PM MDT up reply actions
I seriously might throw something if the Philles get him for that. That's just BS with what the Jays asked from the Dodgers.
Kershaw >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drabek
by bballrox4717 on Jul 24, 2009 4:27 PM MDT up reply actions
that good?
How do you figure?
Chris Iannetta status: DOOM
Seth Smith status: FREE SETH SMITH
Matt Murton status: Prisoner Exchanged for CarGon
Mike McCoy status: FREE MIKE MCCOY
by Andrew Martin on Jul 24, 2009 4:28 PM MDT up reply actions
Drabek is seriously overrated as a prospect
His whole ace potential only comes true if his third pitch works out, if not.
Kershaw is younger, has way better stuff, and despite being lucky, has accomplished some things at the MLB level.
It’s already a kick in the face that the Philles may get him, but for that crap, then it may as well be a stab to the gut.
by bballrox4717 on Jul 24, 2009 4:31 PM MDT up reply actions
Yes!
5:31pm: MLB.com’s Jordan Bastian hears from a source that reports of Halladay being traded to Philly within the next 24 hours are inaccurate.
Thank god.
by bballrox4717 on Jul 24, 2009 4:34 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm ok with this trade
but I want to substitute Nelson for Gomez. Gomez to me is the untouchable in the organization.
Now…going back to the Jays demand on the Dodgers with Kershaw and Martin….are they on crack? That hurts the Dodgers as much or more then it helps them. Why would they even consider that?
It also doesn’t jive or come close to the Phillies proposal, which is far, less. Which tends to make me think that the Phillies rumor is from the Phillies side, and not what the Jays are asking, and the Jays price is driving off suitors, thus making the Phillies offer the best.
Get in there O’Dowd!
Start Seth Smith! Free Eric Young Jr.!
oh, it's an official offer from the Jays now
and the Phillies are balking.
by bballrox4717 on Jul 25, 2009 10:09 AM MDT up reply actions
Phillies denied the Jays offer
Angels are reportedly after him now. Can’t see what they could offer besides Walden and Wood though. The door is WIDE open for the Rockies to swoop in and get Halladay in a trade that’s not overdealing.
by bballrox4717 on Jul 25, 2009 12:46 PM MDT up reply actions
It depends
If Colorado want their prospects or a run at a WS.
I think either of your top 2 SP prospects, Carlos Gonzalez and two 2nd tier prospects is a much better offer than what Phillie are offering which is:
Drabek
Happ
Brown
If I were a Rockies fan I would not want to make the trade based on even with Halladay I don’t think they’re any better than LA.
It would probably mean Wild Card and then elimination it also depends if you want to offer Halladay an extension.
Anything can happen in the playoffs, it's why the Dodgers and Phillies want Halladay even though they are dominating their divisions
Personally, I’d be more willing to give up Esmil Rogers, though Chacin could leave if the Jays wanted him more. Are you a Jays fan? My offer is Chacin/Rogers, CarGo, Gomez, and Hynick, given the Phillies offer. Both pitching prospects could pitch for the Jays now, CarGo is a high upside outfielder, and Gomez gives them a SS of the future.
by bballrox4717 on Jul 25, 2009 10:08 AM MDT up reply actions
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