A few words about Clint

by brian8065 on Jul 25, 2009 2:06 PM MDT Comment 32 comments

There are several Purple Rowers that would like to see Eric Young Jr. brought up to take Clint Barmes’es job. I cannot disagree anymore. Especially reading Brian Cartwright’s analysis on Baseball Prospectus as to where EY2 would do at the Major League level.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=1337

Let my argument for how good Barmes is start out with how awful he is about taking a walk. Somebody on Purple Row stated that Barmes will swing at a pick off to first. This is what stops him from being an All-Star. To a baseball stat person, which is a lot of the Purple Row community, this is an unforgivable shortcoming. He is getting better at it, as his stats this year have improved considerably.

With that out of the way, Barmes should be the NL Gold Glove winner. He is, or is very near, the best defensive second baseman in all of baseball. He was a very good defensive shortstop when he played there. I remember going to a game in 2006 where he made several difficult plays at short. I bet Clint Barmes could play any position. If pressed, he could catch. If really pressed, I bet he would be one of the best position players to pitch. He is a terrific athlete, with a good arm, who plays a smart defense. A switch from Barmes to Eric Young would be a big drop off defensively. I have read that Eric Young is a serviceable second baseman.

It is easy to look at Eric Young’s offensive numbers in Colorado Springs, especially his .388 OBP and 50 Stolen Bases, and want that up on the Rockies. Brian Cartwright from Baseball Prospectus does not think he will do nearly this well, as he projects a .255 BA and a .326 OBP. Even at that, his OBP is better than Clint’s, who is at .313 this year, and .304 career. Clint hits for power though. He may end up with 20 HR this year. His Slugging Percentage is .468, which is second in the league for Second Basemen. His OPS+ is 99 right now, which for second basemen, is pretty good. Chase Utley is far and away the best offensive second baseman, with an OPS+ of 150. Here are the National League second basemen that qualify for the batting crown by OPS+:

Player	Team	OPS+
Chase Utley	PHI	150
Freddy Sanchez	PIT	114
Orlando Hudson	LAD	109
Skip Schumaker	STL	107
Brandon Phillips	CIN	106
Dan Uggla	FLA	102
Felipe Lopez	MIL/ARI	100
Clint Barmes	COL	99
Luis Castillo	NYM	99
David Eckstein	SDG	87
Kazuo Matsui	HOU	72

Five teams do not have a second baseman with enough at bats to qualify for the batting title, so I did not include them.

I just do not see EY2 in the same category as Clint Barmes. I believe Barmes is a better hitter and offensive player, and a far better defensive player. When you consider his defense, Clint is in the top tier of a group of players that are all close to being the second best second baseman in the league behind Chase Utley. EY2 would not even be in this group, at this time.

I am not down on Eric Young. I hope he continues to improve, and becomes our second baseman someday. Right now, he is decidedly blocked.

Eat. Drink. Be Merry. But the above FanPost does not necessarily reflect the attitudes, opinions, or views of Purple Row's staff (unless, of course, it's written by the staff [and even then, it still might not]).

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I...

completely AGREE. Barmes is the real deal and he’s getting better at the plate looking at more pitches. EY2 I believe is overrated and won’t do anything what he’s doing in the minors here in Denver. Barmes should be our longtime second baseman as I’ve never seen a better defensive second baseman. EY2 should be used as a trading chip.

by GoRockies!! on Jul 25, 2009 2:20 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree

I just don’t know how he’ll handle the real camp competition next spring. Remember 2007? He lost out to some 22-year-old (that admittedly turned out to be quite a ballplayer) at SS. Remember 2008? Some bush-league scrub named Jayson Nix beat him for the 2B job. He was pretty uncontested this year. I hope that he handles the competition from EY2 next spring better than he has in the past. Maybe Tracy has the magic touch with him.

"Speak softly and carry a big (hockey) stick." - Theodore Roosevelt

by wtnelson on Jul 25, 2009 2:24 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Well to be honest here

Hurdle never really gave him a chance after that terrible 2006 season; face it, we all thought he was done as a Rockie after that horrible performance, and that Jayson Nix and Troy Tulowitzki were 1st round picks and were supposed to be the SS and 2B of the future until Hector Gomez and Chris Nelson came into their own as prospects. Barmes only started in 2008 because he played himself back, Nix was awful, and when Hurdle couldn’t play Stewart or Baker at 2nd anymore. Trust me, Hurdle tried very hard to turn Stewart and Baker into 2nd baseman because of Atkins and his own distrust of Barmes.

by bballrox4717 on Jul 25, 2009 5:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

First of all

I started this Post, and then had to go. I did not think I was going to be gone long, but it turned out to be all day. I am back now

by brian8065 on Jul 25, 2009 10:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

It is funny you say that about Hurdle

I could never understand the way Hurdle handled Barmes. That was the base problem with Hurdle. Hurdle was so close to his players on a personal level, yet did not do well by them. Maybe the biggest key to Tracy’s success is putting Barmes at second permanently.

by brian8065 on Jul 25, 2009 10:34 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Of course that was a big impact decision

Letting a real 2nd baseman play 2nd base with good defense made tons of sense. Tracy put a lot of trust in the players, which is why he’s enjoyed lots of success. Hurdle had trust in only “his” guys, like Atkins, Torrealba, Baker, and tried to get them as much playing time as possible, which was a gigantic mistake because he often miscast them in the field for the lineup.

by bballrox4717 on Jul 25, 2009 11:28 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just a couple notes before the storm begins

1) I thought this would be about the other Clint. Heh heh.

2) OPS+ may not be the best tool here, as it overrates a player like Barmes (low OBP relative to slugging) and underrates those like Luis Castillo (the opposite). For example, Statcorner has Castillo with a .347 park adjusted wOBA and Barmes at .340. (I do not recall how they do park adjustments, and whether they calculate the base wOBA exactly the same as fangraphs…fangraphs doesn’t park adjust wOBA IIRC.)

Leave Dexter alone! You're lucky he even performs for you!

by FooMan on Jul 25, 2009 5:05 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree completely

OPS+ is the best tool to use because it is well understood. It is not as good as other tools though, and worse for a player with a high SLG and a low OBP.

by brian8065 on Jul 25, 2009 10:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

The two players are really close

Castillo is better offensively, and Barmes is better defensively. The net is a WARP of 2.5 for Castillo and 2.3 for Barmes. If Barmes continues to play like he has, he will pass Castillo in WARP by the end of the season.

by brian8065 on Jul 25, 2009 11:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is my issue with projected stats

They always assume that the player will have an even .300 BABIP, which is not going to happen. Could EY2 go into the majors and succeed, and see a Francouer like drop because of his high BABIP? Sure. If you look here, http://firstinning.com/players/Eric-Young-b/, you’ll see that EY2 has always had a consistent high BABIP rate, and his wOBA has always been above average. This is why projections sometimes mean nothing.

Here’s the thing with EY2: he’s a wildcard. We don’t know how he’ll translate to the majors, because while scouting reports grade him as a 3rd tier prospect, every statistic shows that he’s a consistent guy with good walk and K rates, and that he always adjusts to the level of the minors he’s at.

I like Clint Barmes, he’s a great defender with power, and a good fastball hitter, but his success has been because of hitting in front of Helton and Hawpe. We’ve seen it, his career stats in the 2 hole are much better than those where hits lower in the lineup. His success isn’t going to last at the major league level when the pitchers figure him out. Besides, he can’t flipping hit on the road, his home/road splits are worse than almost everybody on the team. Now, while I’m a supporter of EY2 starting, I’m not suggesting that the Rockies sit him now when we need stability. I’m saying that sooner or later, we have to give EY2 his chance because he’s earned it. Next year, I do expect to see Barmes as the utility man to EY2 starting at second.

by bballrox4717 on Jul 25, 2009 5:08 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Not true--not all projections are the same

E.g., CHONE, by the same fellow who does the historical WAR used in various articles on site. I’d be surprised if PECOTA always used a league avg there. It would be very unusual for him to carry a .350 BABIP to the majors, though, so I’d guess they regress that fairly heavily.

Leave Dexter alone! You're lucky he even performs for you!

by FooMan on Jul 25, 2009 5:44 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Okay about the projections

as for the BABIP: speed guys generally always carry high BABIP to the MLB unless they are unlucky. If you look at the top BABIP over the past 3 years, you’ll see that it’s the best/luckiest hitters in the league, and the speediest ones in the league. Would EY2 be one of the speediest guys in the league? Absolutely. While his BABIP wouldn’t stay at .350 like has been the past 3 years, it certainly won’t automatically go to .300 unless he has some serious trouble with MLB pitching.

Seriously, the issue with EY2 is whether he’ll adjust to the MLB, and he’s shown that he’s adjusted really well to every new level he’s been introduced to over the years. While he won’t be a .290 hitter immediately, (like .260-.270 I think) he’ll be fine.

by bballrox4717 on Jul 25, 2009 6:02 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's not necessarily a very high BABIP for Young

BABIP in the minors is always much higher, at least for those with MLB talent

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 27, 2009 12:55 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

As Majorette of the EY2 bandwagon

I guess I should say something.

I like EY2 and think he should be in the majors. I think his hitting and speed will be assets. His defense, I don’t think will be so bad as many claim him to be. It’s 2nd base, and he has speed/range, and two hands….read some projections and he’s going to be a worse fielder then those playing blind baseball (which is really amazing to watch by the way!)

But not as the starting 2nd baseman NOW. Barmes isn’t the long range answer at 2nd. He’s at his peak years now. He has little to no plate discipline, and he really only hits at Coors Field. However, he’s a plus defender, and isn’t afraid to put a bat on a ball, and put it in play (Rockies need more balls in play as it is).

At this point in a playoff race, You don’t fix what’s not broke. There the team chemistry. Roles are established. It’s not about next year, or 2 years from now…it’s about winning now. Barmes has shown he should be the starting 2nd baseman now. However, I’d bring EY2 up now, and have him on the bench. He could pinch hit, start a couple times a week to rest Barmes at 2nd, and Tulo at SS (with Barmes starting there a game). He could pinch run. Jr would add a deminsion and depth to this team that it does not have now. Would it hurt his development to not have regular at bats for the next month? I don’t think so, not with what he gains just being around veteran major leaguers. I’m sure he will have to adjust to major league pitching, and would not hit like he has in the humidor-less Springs air, but lets make that transition where/when it doesn’t hurt, when the Rockie have a 2nd baseman, and in a bench role.

So Free EY2…just don’t anoint him the Rockies starting 2ndbaseman.

Start Seth Smith! Free Eric Young Jr.!

by Redhawk on Jul 26, 2009 8:34 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

start a couple times a week to rest Barmes at 2nd, and Tulo at SS

Should we bring back Clint Hurdle too?

by brian8065 on Jul 26, 2009 9:47 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Those might actually be fightin' words to the good natured Redhawk

Leave Dexter alone! You're lucky he even performs for you!

by FooMan on Jul 26, 2009 10:21 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like your signature

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Jul 27, 2009 12:56 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Players do need breaks

Tracy has done a good job of getting his OF’ers playing time, yet keeping the starters starters.

And yes please bring Hurdle back…..i’d love for him to be on Fox-RM

Start Seth Smith! Free Eric Young Jr.!

by Redhawk on Jul 26, 2009 10:32 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's way easier to platoon outfielders than infielders

I don’t want to get rid of Q, because he has no options left, I don’t want to just leave a brilliant defender in the dust, and if the Rockies are serious about starting EY2 anytime in his career, it’s either now or next year. They should just get his feet wet in the majors in September and then let him fight for the starting job next year.

by bballrox4717 on Jul 26, 2009 10:49 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

don't get married to marginal talents

Q is very marginal and is the definition of replacement player.

If you read my post I said, several times the EY2 should not start this year over Barmes. But you are 1) over valuing Barmes and 2) completely dismissing Eric Young Jr. of having any value. If you don’t think he has value as a back up player, then you lose credibility on any of your arguments. Why August and not September? It’s one month of development…but he would be eligible for post season rosters.

Start Seth Smith! Free Eric Young Jr.!

by Redhawk on Jul 26, 2009 10:59 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Her doesn't have eligibility for the playoff roster if he joins the team in September?

1) I’m not a start Barmes everyday fan at all if you have read any of my posts, I want it to be EY2 with the starting job and Barmes in a utility role…next year because yes, destroying the stability of Barmes starting everyday at 2nd would be bad to this team right now.

2) I didn’t know about the playoff rosters eligibility, so that changes my views for this year. In that case, yeah, EY2 should be in the MLB, but he should be starting about 2 games a week then…..

I’ve been on Barmes case a lot because he is such a streaky hitter, and while he can an enormous asset when’s he hot, when’s he cold, he’s hurting the team.

by bballrox4717 on Jul 26, 2009 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

He'd be a damned good pinch runner late in games as well....

by bballrox4717 on Jul 26, 2009 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

sorry I wasn't paying attention to who I was responding to

Playoff eligibility, is tricky and can only replace players that were injured if they are not on the active roster at some point BEFORE the rosters expand the first of September

I wouldn’t make him the starting 2nd baseman over Barmes at this point in the season. But I don’t think sitting on the bench hurts a young player. In some cases I think it’s a help, to be around the big league guys, and watching and learning from them, and getting a little playing time here and there. In this case it’s only a month (August) that he would lose and as close to the bigs as he is….I’d have him on the team.

Start Seth Smith! Free Eric Young Jr.!

by Redhawk on Jul 26, 2009 6:28 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Altitude has Bill Hanzlik

as a studio guy for nuggets games so I guess it could work. That guy was coach when they almost won the fewest games in NBA history. (Though, in his defense he probably had one of the sorriest collection of players ever assembled in the NBA.)

President of the Don Draper fan club.

by jcd823 on Jul 26, 2009 12:41 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

EY2...

Maybe I’m alone here, but I think EY2 is a good trade candidate. In context (in Colorado Springs) his stats aren’t that impressive (aside from the SBs) and his defense is reportedly mediocre. Given all the recent attention paid to him and his famous name, I think teams may be overvaluing him. I’d look to see if I could get a decent RP for him.

As for Barmes, defensively he is very good and offensively he is okay—which makes him an acceptable starter, but not one that couldn’t be replaced if someone better comes along. Keep in mind, he historically has extreme home/road splits, which may indicate that much of his value is tied to Coors.

by DenverBears on Jul 26, 2009 8:35 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

not one that couldn’t be replaced if someone better comes along

Who would you suggest? After Chase Utley, who is worth going after? Should we work a deal for Ian Kinsler, Robinson Cano or Aaron Hill? That could be expensive, and the improvement would not be great. Barmes is having a much better season than Dan Uggla. There are 30 teams out there, and our 2B is one of the best. Should we make a deal like Chacin for Ian Kinsler?

And to suggest that EY2 is better just isn’t looking at the facts.

by brian8065 on Jul 26, 2009 9:35 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure you are talking about me....

but it was in response to my comment—-I would not suggest EY2 is better than Barmes—certainly not right now. Perhaps in a couple of years (and I’m not even sure about that), but certainly not now.

As for someone better coming along…calm down. I mostly agreeing with you, Barmes is doing an decent job, but to say he is one of the best 2b is overstating it. He has been awful with the bat on the road for his career—and the team still plays half of its games on the road.

I wasn’t thinking of anyone in particular, but since you brought it up…I wouldn’t target anyone nor would I be looking to replace him, but I do view 2b as a place where the team could improve. In other words, if an opportunity to obtain a top MI prospect—either through trade, draft or free agency came along, I wouldn’t turn it down because we are set there. I would agree that trying to get Kinsler or Cano would not be worth the price, but I disagree that it wouldn’t be much of an improvement.

by DenverBears on Jul 26, 2009 11:56 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Trade EY2

I agree with what you said about trading him.

by brian8065 on Jul 26, 2009 9:53 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, I think we all know that the Pirates want EY2

but do we want the Pirates relief pitching? Capps is going to take more than EY2, and a half year of Grabow isn’t worth him, nor is a year and a half. Grabow is a Type A, but I don’t see teams willing to give up their 1st or 2nd round pick for him, meaning that he could accept arbitration. Freddy Sanchez is going to be worth EY2 +, but while it would be an improvement, I think it would hurt a great club chemistry. As far as I know, the Pirates are the only team that really wants him.

by bballrox4717 on Jul 26, 2009 10:45 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Barmes is 30

He ain’t gonna get any better than what he is right now, and will likely regress back to his hacking at low-outside pitches soon. Baylor has given him as much help as he can, and it doesn’t appear to be enough to get him to stop hacking at pitches he will NEVER be able to hit.

Q is a waste of a roster spot. He doesn’t get into the game (10 games since 6/24, all but 1 for 1 AB) so why keep him? For sentimental sake? See if anyone wants him, and if no one wants to trade for him, release him. The Rockies have a “good glove-no hit” IF and thats Barmes.
If nothing else, EY2 has speed, and that has value late in a close game when getting a runner into scoring position can get another win, so bring him up and utilize the roster spot to have a gain of a different metric.

by rockieprogress on Jul 26, 2009 11:14 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Completly Agree

Q for EY2 makes alot of sense.

by lizardlad01 on Jul 26, 2009 1:26 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Barmes' defence

is one of THE things I love about actually watching my team. He’s quick and graceful and reliable and saves a whole load of hits. With Tulo he makes a fantastic middle infield pairing and the security they offer must really help the team on a psychological level as well as on a practical one.

by biondino on Jul 26, 2009 3:25 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs