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Around SBN: Sob City: Clippers Swept By Spurs

Yet another offensive improvement made by San Francisco. Does this force Dan O'Dowd's hand?

almost 3 years ago No_bunting_tiny Bryan Kilpatrick 33 comments 0 recs  | 

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Pirates get Tim Alderson in return...

This may have been their best acquisition yet.

"What's money? A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and goes to bed at night and in between does what he wants to do." -Bob Dylan

by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jul 29, 2009 4:57 PM MDT reply actions  

I agree with that...

Good job Pirates.

And no, this doesn’t force O’Dowd’s hand.

by Rox Girl on Jul 29, 2009 5:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

His Hand Has Been Forced

however his wallet has been sealed

Will Roy Halladay take state of California IOU’s for pay? Maybe Toronto won’t know we aren’t in Cali….

Start Seth Smith! Free Eric Young Jr.!

by Redhawk on Jul 29, 2009 5:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree

It’s an upgrade, but I assume their plan otherwise was to plant Uribe at 2nd for the rest of the season. He gets a little of that shortstop to 2nd boost to his defense, so unless something’s radically changed this year, I’d have him a bit better than Sanchez (not as much as just doing a straight UZR comparison, but better).

Doing some back of the envelope calcs on their ZiPS rest of season woba’s, Sanchez looks like about a 6 run upgrade over 250 PA. Some of that would be eaten by defensive differences.

So it’s like the Garko trade…maybe a half a win upgrade. We’re lucky they didn’t replace Burris at 2nd earlier in the season.

Leave Dexter alone! You're lucky he even performs for you!

by FooMan on Jul 29, 2009 5:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

So overall they get about a one win upgrade,

Assuming no over or under play from the two, just normal expectancy. The Rockies trade for Betancourt and promotion of Chacin and Morales (I know it doesn’t seem like this given the results Monday night) should wind up giving us a similar boost. Right now it’s looking more like the Rockies forced the Giants to give up one of their better prospects just to keep up.

by Rox Girl on Jul 29, 2009 5:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

I guess so.

I dunno. Over on primer people are reacting as if Uribe is worse than both his rest-of-season projection* and is not a good fielder, I guess because he’s fat. (*His projection is better than his previous 3 yrs for the White Sox, but less than what he’s hitting so far this season…it does seem a bit high given his ridiculously low OBP’s with the White Sox.)

It’s definitely an upgrade over what they’ve had overall this season at 2nd, though.

Leave Dexter alone! You're lucky he even performs for you!

by FooMan on Jul 29, 2009 5:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

The Giants are looming

"A fine beer may be judged with only one sip, but it's better to be thoroughly sure."
-Czech Proverb

by NewMexicanSteven on Jul 29, 2009 5:07 PM MDT reply actions  

Really?

Alderson for Sanchez? I wouldn’t have done that one.

by Since1993 on Jul 29, 2009 5:22 PM MDT reply actions  

For which side?

You wouldn’t have done it for the Giants I’m assuming?

by CentralCaliRox on Jul 29, 2009 5:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

Right, I would not give up Alderson for Sanchez were I the Giants.

It’s not Scott Kazmir for Victor Zambrano but it’s not a smart trade in my opinion.

by Since1993 on Jul 29, 2009 7:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

yea i have talked to some Giants fans

who hated seeing the trade

we seem to have gotten over that HURDLE

by TuLoRocks2008 on Jul 29, 2009 8:20 PM MDT up reply actions  

I know this is probably an obvious point

but DOD shouldn’t be affected by anything SF (or anyone else) is doing. He should be looking to (responsibly) improve the team in any way possible, regardless of competiton. I’m generally down on DOD (and Matzek looms) but I’m happy with the moves he’s made recently. I like Betancourt a lot , despite Monday I’m wholly on board with Morales in the pen, and I’m optimistic that Chacin can be an impact guy. I won’t be upset if we stand pat, but that doesn’t mean that a good deal isn’t out there somewhere.

by Teekalong on Jul 29, 2009 6:16 PM MDT reply actions  

Terrible trade by the Giants

What are they thinking? Alderson is going to be a stud for a long, long time in this league. Sanchez is nothing special. Great trade Pirates. As Rockies fans, we have to love this one…

by noelman31 on Jul 29, 2009 6:35 PM MDT reply actions  

I'm partial to agree with you

this is definitely a short-term trade

if you're reading this, it means my undying support for your team will result in its failure.

by fantasyfencing on Jul 29, 2009 6:40 PM MDT up reply actions  

At least this compensation stings

earlier morning’s report of Bowker, Fransden, and Guzman was laughable.

Still, it will be interesting to see just what San Francisco gave up here, as I was a little skeptical of Alderson as a grade A prospect. The numbers this year are good for a 20 year old, but considering his polish, you’d still like to see more K’s. The scouting reports are good, but I’m not convinced of major upside here as a breaking ball specialist. Worst case may be Ryan Madson- type reliever, but I really don’t see best case being that much higher. Matt Morris maybe?

by David OhNo on Jul 29, 2009 6:41 PM MDT reply actions  

I disagree...

…more like the next Jair Jurrjens

by noelman31 on Jul 29, 2009 6:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yet two very different styles

Jurrjens and Alderson have two very idfferent frames to begin with, with Alderson being very big and lanky at 6’6 and 220, while Jurrjens has a sold build but in a much smaller package at 6’1 200 lbs. Both also throw from a very different arm slot, with Alderson almost side arm coming out of high school but now a more pure to low 3/4 delivery at max effort. It’s these mechanics that have some suggesting a switch to the bullpen. The stuff also varies, as Jurrjens typically sits at 92, peaking 94-95 in a game, while Alderson is said to in the high 80’s with a two seamer and peaking at 92.

Straight numbers comparisons do not work well for minor leaguers, as the factors vary too greatly between league strengths and age related to competition. Just using career numbers would suggest that Will Inman is superior to both, yet those that have seen all three pitchers would likely scoff at that notion. Jurrjens has turned out better than many had projected, pitching at the level as a lower division number two/ championshipcaliber number three. Maybe Alderson gets there, but Jurrjens is posting a better K rate and HR rate in the bigs now than Alderson in AA, and looks to have the better fastball to complement a solid breaking pitch and quality change. I’m not convinced Alderson has the fastball to reach number two status, and may have to get by as a starter that throws his breaking ball 30% of the time.

Again, I’m not saying Alderson won’t be a good pitcher, as even a role as a Ryan Madson type reliever has a lot of value. I just don’t think he’s attained A prospect status, and is closer to B+/B for me as a low floor HS righty, and should not be spoken in the same breath as Bumgarner as much as he has coming up.

by David OhNo on Jul 29, 2009 10:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

Interesting...

… I appreciate your insight. I read minor league baseball stats almost more than I read major league stats. But, as you say, those don’t tell tales of arm slot, and I’ve never thought about size and weight as a factor. Then again, Greg Maddox wasn’t exactly a huge dude, was he? But there, overall, is something to be said.

Where does your arm slot comparison and top speed data come from? How do I find that out about minor league players?

by noelman31 on Jul 31, 2009 3:43 AM MDT up reply actions  

I just poked my head in over at McCovey Chronicles

and I’m pretty sure torches and pitchforks are on the horizon.

by holly96 on Jul 29, 2009 6:54 PM MDT reply actions  

Ah San Fran...

I used to work at Bush and Montgomery and take the N Judah home to the Outer Sunset.

by Since1993 on Jul 29, 2009 7:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

now should be the time for dod to force his hand.. and enhance the pitching by adding offense

Now with todays game being postponed what does he have to do all day? Now he will have all day to think about trades for our club. hopefully, he makes an effort at the least. Maybe since the pitching market is limited and costly, he could look to add a bat. If theres no way to acquire pitching without depleting our farm, why dont we make a smart trade for an OF with power to place in left.

We already have a decent pitching staff, both in the pen and the rotation. But what seems like the glaring issue is how we seem to sometimes slow down on knocking in runs in the later innings and let teams back in the game. What would it take to pry Adam Lind from Toronto? He has 20 hr and a .902 OPS and hes hitting just a bit under .300. Maybe colonel/holcomb plus kindel/paulk to give them corner infield depth and if needed maybe a throw-in of whoever we get for hirsh? Lind is playing for around $400k this year, so it might take at the least.

Lind can hit in either the 3rd or 5th slot, but i think he could slide into the 3 slot and make a huge impact. Todd could move up to the 2 slot and take as many pitches as he wants to allow Fowler to steal 2nd anytime he wanted, a bonus being that Todd would be blocking a right handed throwing catcher (which is everybody) allowing Fowler even more protection. I feel comfortable with batting Hawpe in the 4 spot because he has handled it before. Tulo will continue to do fine in the 5 hole, Stewart and Barmes should both be near the bottom of the order at this point, because neither of them can hit breaking pitches, and CDI stays put.

Our lineup vs. righties would be scary:

1: Fowler (S)
2: Helton (L)
3: Lind (L)
4: Hawpe (L)
5: Tulo®
6: Stewart (L)
7: Barmes® or hopefully EY2 soon..
8: CDI

and vs. lefties we could go:
1: Fowler (S)
2: Barmes® (although going from 7-2 might hurt him)
3: Helton (L)
4: Lind (L)
5: Tulo®
6: Hawpe (L)
7: Atkins®
8: CDI®

Tell me what you think

by Jay Doubleyou on Jul 29, 2009 6:56 PM MDT reply actions  

There is no way in hell that Toronto gives up Lind for the garbage you suggested there.

Plus, I don’t think outfield is a huge concern for the Rox at this point.

"What's money? A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and goes to bed at night and in between does what he wants to do." -Bob Dylan

by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jul 29, 2009 7:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think if you added Alan Johnson to that proposal, it would get done.

Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.

by Franchise26 on Jul 30, 2009 7:08 AM MDT up reply actions  

Hahaha

"What's money? A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and goes to bed at night and in between does what he wants to do." -Bob Dylan

by Bryan Kilpatrick on Jul 30, 2009 3:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think

that we don’t need another outfielder. We’re already having a hard enough time finding playing time for Fowler, CarGo, Smith, and Spilborghs in addition to Hawpe starting full-time. Throw in another OF and we go from a logjam to a clusteryoucan’tsaythatwordonpurplerow. While having the bat of Lind would be nice, we would definitely need to give up some major league talent for him, and hopefully we would give up some of our extraneous outfielders.

"Admirably obsessive." - Uni Watch, March 24th, 2009
NA34 | HK | RMN

by oo_nrb on Jul 29, 2009 9:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'll pass

I’m ok with our current OF. We need another reliever.

by noelman31 on Jul 29, 2009 6:57 PM MDT reply actions  

Congrats to the Pirates and 2011 Rockies

    I like this trade. Think it’s hard sometimes to be a Rockies fan? Imagine what it’s been like the last two decades in Pittsburgh. Now with this (and to a lesser extent the Wilson/Snell trade to Seattle) they have something to start building around. As for the Rockies…. Well there’s no question this upgrades SF. Perhaps even more than most have suggested. I think that when you have a really bad offense and are still in contention because of exceptional pitching, even an average hitter is bound to go further than if you’re just adding bats to an already potent line-up. On the other hand, I am really starting to get nervous about the long-term look for SF’s rotation. Lincecum, Cain, Bumgartner, Sanchez, Alderson. That was sick. Now it just makes me ill. Long-term plus for the Rockies.
     As for the Rockies countering… Not much we can do really. We’ll live or die with the offense we already have (which I think is the right move) and Halladay’s just not going to happen (even though I secretly daydream about it). That leaves a second left-handed reliever like Sherrill on the top end or Beimel on the low. Either would be a decent addition in my opinion, but I wouldn’t give up the type of prospect I fear they may require. One thing about it though… All of today’s trades and the price the contending teams had to pay, really makes me appreciate the job DOD did landing Betancourt for Graham.

by IowaRockie on Jul 29, 2009 8:09 PM MDT reply actions  

Cliff Lee came relatively cheaply

Esp. compared to the types of names tossed around in the various Halladay rumors. He’s quite a good pitcher and is very reasonable next year at $9 Million.

Leave Dexter alone! You're lucky he even performs for you!

by FooMan on Jul 29, 2009 10:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

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