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Baseball Prospectus' Jay Jaffe opines about Todd Helton's Hall of Fame chances on ESPN (Insider required) and concludes that Helton falls short of the HOF standard due to his WAR production (which takes into account park factors).

The analysis is pretty fair and comprehensive in my opinion, though I hope that Helton does make the Hall.

almost 3 years ago Jeff_aberle_tiny Jeff Aberle 10 comments 0 recs  | 

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Regardless of what this guy says about Helton

He is a stupid sabermetric snob, and he and all of his kind, and their made up statistics should be banned from the game permanently.

"Good teams win games, horse**** teams have meetings." - Ozzie Guillen

by free7694 on Aug 13, 2009 1:05 AM MDT reply actions  

LOL

I don’t completely disagree.

"Speak softly and carry a big (hockey) stick." - Theodore Roosevelt

by wtnelson on Aug 13, 2009 11:34 AM MDT up reply actions  

Made-up stats like batting average?

I assume you’re joking. But on a serious note, if Helton gets in, it will likely be due to the influence of sabermetrics on how we read stats. HoF voters love batting average, and he does well there. But they also want HR and RBI out of a first baseman, and his current totals of 321 HR and 1181 RBI are not impressive for a player in this era.

I think a non-saber type is more likely to over-discount his stats based on the park (due to simplistic thinking like looking at road stats alone to determine his “real” level of ability). A saber type is more likely to appreciate Helton’s strongest stat, his OBP.

Leave Dexter alone! You're lucky he even performs for you!

by FooMan on Aug 13, 2009 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

With all due respect

Discrediting Helton for his park is complete BS. It’s not his fault that he played there. I’m not an insider, so I haven’t read the article, but it’s just bogus. Nobody discredits Dodger pitchers for playing in Chavez Ravine, or Padres pitchers for pitching in Death Valley. Nobody discredits Babe Ruth a few hundred homers for being a left-handed hitter with the short porch in right in Yankee Stadium. The “Coors Field…” argument is a cop-out, an excuse for not paying attention, statistical analysis or not.

I’m of the belief that Helton should be in when all is said and done, but I have no problem if somebody believes differently for a real reason. “Coors Field…” is not a real reason. It doesn’t make him any less of a player.

"Speak softly and carry a big (hockey) stick." - Theodore Roosevelt

by wtnelson on Aug 13, 2009 11:37 AM MDT reply actions  

You have to adjust for park

Without reading the article, it’s hard to know if he “discredits” Helton for his park. Knowing some of Jaffe’s work, I doubt he’s done this. There are some folks who know just enough stats to be dangerous, and do things like only look at road stats. Jaffe’s been at this a while, I don’t think he does that.

Fact is, Helton had his peak years when Coors field boosted offense by 40-50%. On has to account for that. A run in such an environment just doesn’t bring a team as close to a win as a run in a neutral scoring environment. (Otherwise, those teams would have won many more games, scoring 900 runs/yr). Now, as for the “luck” of finding oneself playing home games at Coors: you can make an argument that an individual player isn’t helped as much by the park as the general park adjustment due to some sort of characteristic, like a right-hander playing in pre-70’s renovation Yankee stadium, and thus, his stats shouldn’t be adjusted downward as much I think it’s hard to make that sort of argument for Helton, though. So far as I know, Coors helps both lefties and righties in power numbers and batting average, and Helton’s splits show a boost in these categories.

Now, it’s true that voters (and writers and the public in general) have not been that sophisticated when adjusting for park over the years, if they’ve done it at all. There have probably been some marginal HoF types who wouldn’t have made it had voters adjusted for park (one could point to Jim Rice, though there’s a lot of reasons to argue that he shouldn’t have made it in). Thing is, though, if you adjust for Ruth playing with the short porch, or Ted Williams playing in a park that boosts doubles and batting avg for lefties, well, they’re still HoF’ers.

Like all but the greatest players, Helton’s a marginal candidate at age 35. His career totals aren’t impressive at the moment and his peak is not impressive as his raw numbers would suggest. It doesn’t help his case that there were a large number of really good first basemen around the time he played (Mark McGwire, Frank Thomas, Jeff Bagwell, Jim Thome, Jason Giambi, Rafael Palmeiro, Albert Pujols to name a few) – he doesn’t stand out as the best at his position.

So like most candidates, he’ll have to keep playing well to make a better case.

Leave Dexter alone! You're lucky he even performs for you!

by FooMan on Aug 13, 2009 12:20 PM MDT up reply actions  

The other guys took steroids..

except Albert (I hope)

"I've never known a man worth his salt who in the long run, deep down in his heart, didn't appreciate the grind, the discipline... I firmly believe that any man's finest hour - this greatest fulfillment to all he holds dear is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle, victorious." - Vince Lombardi

by nodakroxfan on Aug 13, 2009 5:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

If Bagwell, Thomas, and Thome took steroids, why not Todd?

Leave Dexter alone! You're lucky he even performs for you!

by FooMan on Aug 13, 2009 5:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

Bad wording

I wasn’t thorough enough in my post, but I don’t mean to discredit the author. I completely understand that there is a Coors Field factor, but it does not, and never has, made anybody less of a player. Until someone uses another park as a factor in postseason awards voting or HOF voting, I will never buy the argument. It’s a cop-out, and that’s all it’s ever been.

"Speak softly and carry a big (hockey) stick." - Theodore Roosevelt

by wtnelson on Aug 13, 2009 6:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

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