The Real '07 World Series Winners
by prettyinpurple on Aug 3, 2009 1:30 PM MDT
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PrintI laughed this week when two more cheaters David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez (who we already know is a cheater) were revealed. Both were key members of the '04 and '07 World champion Red Sox (ugh!).
Now, I'm not going to argue about '04 since the Sox played the Yankees to get there, and the Yankees have issues too, but the Red Sox sweeping our Rockies is just not fair.
We probably wouldn't have won the Series in '07 if these players were clean, but we might've not got swept!
Who are The Real 2007 World Series Champions!
Eat. Drink. Be Merry. But the above FanPost does not necessarily reflect the attitudes, opinions, or views of Purple Row's staff (unless, of course, it's written by the staff [and even then, it still might not]).
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This assumes that no Rockies were on Steroids
Cansaco has said that around 75% to 80% of al players were on steriods. I saw Peter Gammons who said the other day (when all of this was breaking) that he thought the % pitchers on steroids would be higher then position players.
So….don’t assume that anyone was clean. The Red Sox still swept us.
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The real champions are the Red Sox.
They beat the Rockies four straight, as I recall.
I also recall neither David Ortiz or Manny Ramirez being suspended during the 2007 season.
I also recall a rather prominent member of the Rockies bullpen in 2007, Matt Herges, being tied to steroid use in the Mitchell Report.
Your options are these: either prove either every member of the Red Sox was drinking steroid milkshakes during October 2007 while the Rockies were subsisting on milk, vitamins, and belief in Hulkamania, and then you’ve got an argument that maybe we weren’t on a level playing field… or forget about it and enjoy the fact that we played deep enough into that season to get beaten by what was, steroids or not, a superior ballclub.
Trust me, bitterness about being ‘robbed’ of a championship doesn’t really get you anywhere. (Says the man who is still convinced the Seahawks would have won Super Bowl XL had a competent officiating crew been assigned to the game).
Staying on the sunny side of Blake Street since 1993.
The Shawn Chacon Experience - Life as a Rockies fan, one day at a time: Because we're all still recovering from those nine blown saves.
Well...it's good to not hold bitterness this I agree with
but still….I’ll go to my grave up set over the OU vs Texasgam in 84 that ended 15-15
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And since you bring up Oklahoma,
this FanPost reminds me about the argument a couple of seasons ago when Oklahoma had to vacate their wins from the 2005 season: Oregon fans wanted the “W” for the Holiday Bowl (not that I was one of those fans), but it’s still a loss.
"If we never try, we shall never succeed." - Abraham Lincoln
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and OU won the appeal and got all those wins back
The Ralphie Report - University of Colorado Athletics
The Red Sox.
"If we never try, we shall never succeed." - Abraham Lincoln
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As much as I hate the Red Sox
Say if the whole Red Sox team was juicing, and the whole Rockies team was doing it the real way. That gives the Red Sox an unfair advantage, and the Red Sox would lose the title. However, would you really want the title in that way, by accusing the other team of cheating? It’s better to win the real way, fair and square, and the Red Sox beat us, fair and square because I’m sure some Rockies were juicing too, most of the ML was juicing. With steroids on the way out, and with us leading the wildcard right now, we could possibly win this year clean. Isn’t it better that way?
Here's the ugly part of 'roids
are you SURE the Rockies are all clean? Maybe we are just taking better fertility pills. Just cause people aren’t getting caught…doesn’t mean everyone is innocent.
And that shadow will hang over baseball for ever (although it should also hang over other sports too)
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Dude it does
Big time. The sports where it doesn’t, it will. I read earlier today baseball described itself as having the most thorough drug policy in sport. That’s a joke – cyclists are tested dozens of times a season, for example. And the punishments are laughable too.
TODD HELTON IS A SAINT I WILL HEAR NOTHING TO THE CONTRARY
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 3, 2009 2:53 PM MDT up reply actions
Only a bit of steroids in his chin
They helped him touch the plate!
by ShadowPenguin on Aug 4, 2009 1:28 PM MDT up reply actions
I'd blame the week off before the series that the Rox had
instead of any steroids. A week off from real baseball after the marathon that is the season, and then the sweeps against the Phillies and Dbacks? They came out rusty against a good team, that’s the way it is.
Yep
If the Indians had put the Red Sox away like they were supposed to, they would’ve faced a 2 or 3-days of rest Rockies team and the series would’ve been MUCH tighter. You can simulate games all you want, but if you have 8 days off before a game you should probably be thankful that 12 runs was all the difference was.
"Admirably obsessive." - Uni Watch, March 24th, 2009
NA34 | HK | RMN
it just would've been a more fun WS
but I’m also P sure that the NLCS would’ve been more fun, too, had the Rockies not been on such a torrid pace.
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 3, 2009 2:53 PM MDT up reply actions
game 4 of the NLCS was the most fun i have ever had at any sporting event
i cant imagine it getting any better.
The Boston Red Sox won the 2007 World Series
Much as I wanted to jump from the upper deck and go on a killing rampage of all the red jerseys swarming the lower deck of Coors Field after Game 4 and infesting its hallowed gates with Red Sox stench….
I don’t know where I’m going with this. We lost fair and square.
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Nothing worse than being bitter over losing a championship...
that your team actually had the opportunity to win. Whether the Sox (or Rox) were using steroids or not, at least the Rockies got the chance to play them and the chance to show that they were the better team, which they were not.
Now, if you want to talk about being bitter about not winning a championship because you didn’t even get to play for it due to a terrible system (see 2008 University of Utah Football), then we can talk…
"What's money? A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and goes to bed at night and in between does what he wants to do." -Bob Dylan
by Bryan Kilpatrick on Aug 3, 2009 5:21 PM MDT reply actions
go utes
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 3, 2009 6:23 PM MDT up reply actions
Boooo!!!!
Go Cougars! Lets’ have no more talk about Utah football teams. It could get ugly.
The whole 'Roid/PED thing will have longer term implications
on HOF inductions for the next 10-15 years. We’re starting to see it now. Mark McGwire is a case in point. Definitely one of the most amazing power hitters I’ve seen. I saw him launch a ball completely out of Coors when he was with the Cards. But chances are, he won’t get in. And, IMHO, he shouldn’t. Same with Manny, despite his complete lack of respect for the game, he [cough][gag] is one of its best hitters. But then again, I believe Dwight Evans should be in the HOF, simply because he was my favorite player growing up, so what do I know.
Right now, a lot of voting members of the BBWAA are struggling with this. I know that would have a hard time bringing my son to see Barry Bonds’ plaque there. Beyond just the obvious names that have been leaked from the Mitchell Report, there are others we don’t know about. But, we have our suspicions.
Even players like Alex Rodriguez who admitted to using PEDs in the past, and has several potentially productive years ahead of him, may likely have the numbers that would make him eligible. So how do you discount the “PED years” from the non-PED years? I watched as a 19-year-old kid in Seattle (before he went to Texas, where he admitted to PED use), and was completely amazed by him. Now, I’m more disappointed by him, irrespective of his off-the-field shenanigans (Ty Cobb was a complete jerk by many accounts). So what should the BBWAA do with players like him?
Yep, we know Papi and Manny cheated. Matt Herges was on the list too. I’m not defending the Red Sox. I think the whole think stinks. Period.
There’s a part of me that believes that players like Clemens, Bonds, McGwire should be treated the same way as Pete Rose. Great players, but cheated the game. There’s another part that says that “everyone” was doing it, so the playing field was (artificially) level, and baseball wouldn’t remember some of the greatest players in our lifetime, so let them in.
What is the Hall of Fame if it’s not a museum, a time capsule of the greatest moments, players and teams throughout the history of the game? That’s all it is and pretending it’s anything more and that there’s some sort of pious value to the place is absurd.
McGwire might have used something to boost his performance. But, like it or not, he is one of the 50 most important figures in baseball history. Perhaps even higher.
Steroids don’t turn Greg Norton into Mark McGwire. They probably added a few dozen home runs. A pretty petty, victimless amount.
by LawrenceDavis on Aug 3, 2009 5:55 PM MDT up reply actions
They need to make a decision
Either Yes or No. And then stand by it, and not let any more questions influence things. Even though they still will.
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 3, 2009 6:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Who's "they"?
the HOF voters are pretty much the general sports reporters. Should baseball and Hall say "Don’t not vote for someone, just because they may be suspected of taking ’steroids when it was no illegal, and when it was illegal we did nothing to test or enforce the rule…and actively looked the other way?
actually I don’t know….would like to hear opinions, on how “they” can tell the other “they” how to vote/handle the issue. What is the solution?
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I guess I mean more in terms of the record books
762*
73*
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 3, 2009 8:09 PM MDT up reply actions
They the reporters
probably knew who was taking steroids, because the reporters were around the clubhouse and have very keen hearing and eyesite.
I still think all the McGwires’, Bonds’, and Clemons’ should be included into the HOF because, their numbers without ’roids probably would have gotten them there any way.
Like LD said it is a museum and this should be recorded as the steroid era. So maybe there is an asterick indicating the era by their name, they will always be a part of baseball and there was a lot of people that grew up watching them play. The era will not be forgotten, so include it and the players in the HOF.
S you're basically saying it's fine to cheat, guys
because even though your stats are fraudulent not only are we going to reward you for it, but we’re going to assume that actually they made no difference and you’d still have been a true legend?
There is a strong likelihood that the juicers juiced for most of their careers. I mean, why not – if everyone else is doing it. Perhaps all their seasons of excellence were because of PEDs? A-Rod, for example. Only used for three years? Really? What made him stop? Manny – perhaps he had a bad milkshake in 2003 and whatever the hell he did this year, and was clean as a whistle in between. Or perhaps he took drugs before 2003, took drugs after 2003, and his whole career is an obscenely inflated sham?
It takes a lot to get into the HOF. There’s not a lot of margin for mediocrity. For every roider who had the genuine talent to qualify clean, how many would have been yet another unrecognised ballplayer?
The other side
is how do you KNOW they are roiders. Just cause they weren’t caught, does that make them clean? If the blanket of suspicion goes to a whole generation of players, do you kick out a whole generation? Or only the few unlucky enough to be caught. Remember there was no testing for about 15 years or more while roids become prevalent.
So do you know that Ivan Rodriquez was on ‘roids? I mean he lost 30 lbs of muscle when testing came in…but does that make him guilty? His production has dropped…but he’s also pretty old especially for a catcher.
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There is a strong likelihood that the juicers juiced for most of their careers
You had better be able to back that up with something harder than hearsay and happenstance.
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 6, 2009 8:27 AM MDT up reply actions
I absolutely don't have to back that up
It’s not an accusation or a statement of fact, it’s a supposition based on logic.
The odds of the juicers ONLY juicing for the brief period for which they got caught are miniscule. If cheating works, and you don’t get caught, there’s going to be a hell of a temptation to keep going.
There’ll be players who doped once, felt terrible, and vowed to never do it again. There’ll be players who only used coming back from injury. There’ll be players who got scared and stopped. And there’ll be players who saw their stats and saw their paychecks and were very happy to continue.
You’re good with stats, so if you’d like to analyse those of proven dopers (or the Bonds and McGwire types if you like) and give me an idea of when you think they were and when they weren’t using, I’d love to see what you come up with.
Stats don't necessarily prove anything.
For a lot of these guys, it’s more the fact that they were AAAA players who couldn’t really crack the bigs; their minor league numbers were indicative of a MLB roster spot but their MLB rosters were indicative of a AAA spot. I could say “wow this proven juicer batted like a replacement level player!” and that would prove absolutely nothing.
You’re still making tall claims by saying that everyone who has done it once has done it their entire career. Have you ever lied? Liar. Have you ever stolen? Thief. I’m not saying a guy who did it once, felt awful, and then never did it again deserves a “boys will be boys” pass, not at all, if they’re rung up, they’re guilty.
Even with your rationale that “cheating worked? Sweet, I’ll keep doing it” may be a logical reason for players to keep doing it, it’s terribly unfair to paint everyone with the same brush. “All their careers” could be a long time, there may have been a period of time when they thought it was a great idea. You’re making the assumption that as a fresh faced rookie they got their bat, their glove, their new, clean uniform and cleats, and then immediately went to the corner store and bought bull elephant testosterone and began pumping their rookie veins full of it immediately. I sincerely doubt that’s the case.
It’s like my baseball sim game. As the season progresses, some players take hits, some get boosts – that is to say, their talent ratings will increase or decrease. Some MLB players may just lose a step over the offseason, and at the risk of losing their job to another fresh faced young farm hand, they do something to get the edge back. Eventually, they get that moral nudge, and quit.
I’m not saying every player has that story of redemption to fall back on, but without hard facts, my story is just as plausible as your claim of “juiced for most of their careers”.
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 7, 2009 8:30 AM MDT up reply actions
balls, typo
their minor league numbers were indicative of a MLB roster spot but their MLB numbers were indicative of a AAA spot
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 7, 2009 8:31 AM MDT up reply actions
You're right in that my comment was overstated
I’d like to replace “There is a strong likelihood that the juicers juiced for most of their careers” with “there is a strong possiblity that many juicers used drugs for considerable lengths of time over their careers”. The main implication being that while there will be people who made a one-off mistake, there will be many others for whom it became a way of life.
The AAAA guy whose juicing meant that a teammate was relegated to AAA? That’s the kind of subtle, personal malice I’m referring to. Whether Manny gets $12m a year or $20m a year is, in a sense, less important. On a sporting level the latter matters more – if a World Series is won by cheats playing non-cheats (and I’m not for a second saying we can truly know this, but theoretically it’s sound), then that is taking the integrity of the sport and taking a great big dump on it in front of a hundred million people.
Personal Malice seems a harsh way to put it
I doubt that Mike McCoy is shooting up in AAA thinking “I hate that Omar Quintanilla so muchhhhhhh”
But yeah, there’s going to be a mix of those involved, I don’t think we can make too many blanket statements about this.
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 7, 2009 9:26 AM MDT up reply actions
I just LOLed my balls off at the McCoy example!
Real, out-loud belly-style laughter. I’m glad my office mate isn’t here right now :D
While I'm in the "the Steroid era" was just that an era
like the dead ball era or the “High mound era” of the 60’s, and players should be judged in relationship to their peers I have to question this one:
Steroids don’t turn Greg Norton into Mark McGwire. They probably added a few dozen home runs. A pretty petty, victimless amount.
Would Bonds have hit 80 in a season? Would McGwire? Would skinny little Sammy Sosa? I seriously doubt it on all accounts. 62 was the Home Run Record for a very long time….look at the home run totals now…few make it into the 30’s. Or the pitchers…..like Clemens and his k’s. Or Pedro Martinez ….hey…he was never caught. What about one of my hero…Nolan Ryan?…..again…never mentioned..in the HOF..but was on that Rangers team with Palmerio, Ivan Rodriquez, Camanette, Juan Gone, Cansacco…and Ryan pitched harder in his 40’s.
Here’s a question on a slightly different aspect….How does punishing those players we either know or suspect of ‘roids….fair to those that just didn’t get caught, and may never really even suspect?
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The cat's out of the bag.
We already know some of the names. In some ways, it’s like a corked bat. We don’t know that a player is using an illegal bat until it breaks to reveal the innards. At that point, the player is removed from the game, likely with a suspension to follow. But everything a player did with the bat up to that point (hits, RBIs, etc.) isn’t taken away.
More importantly, the player loses credibility, at least for a while. This was my point about A-Rod, and others also. And this is where I’m torn. If they can prove that they were capable of producing the same results without the “corked bat”, then they’ll earn some of that credibility back – otherwise they’ll be remembered as frauds.
The problem is that we can’t do that for players that have already retired. So we’re caught between a rock and a hard place to believe that players like McGwire honestly broke Maris’ record, and likewise for Bonds. I hate the whole thought of putting asterisks on everything.
Is the HOF simply a "museum"?
I respectfully disagree. Using the same argument would suggest that Pete Rose should be enshrined, based on the notion that his “crimes” were petty and victimless. It didn’t boost performance.
I look at PED usage as more egregious than Rose’s betting on baseball, and here’s why: for the gambling to truly pay off in baseball, there are so many factors that have to go right that pure random luck (a AAAA player hitting for the cycle, a no-hitter, a run-saving catch, etc.) can, and will, cause losses. Even in the event that a team was “throwing a game,” it relies on collusion – more than a few players have be involved in the scam to stack the odds in your favor – but it sure won’t help anybody’s cause for HOF ballots. With PEDs, McGwire, et al., were stacking the deck entirely in their favor (and I discount any argument that would suggest that they were doing it ‘for the team’). Yeah, they have/had God-given talent to start with, but the numbers they produce(d) aren’t valid (metaphorically, I liken this to Mayor Daley’s, “vote early and often”). So now you have to question whether or not a McGwire or a Bonds would/could have broken long-standing records if they weren’t using PEDs. That has a significant impact on whether they should be honored in the museum.
Rose deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. So does Shoeless Joe Jackson, but that's a little different matter.
Eschew Obfuscation!
Given the current predicament with PEDs
And what Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose did in their careers, I agree. But a friend of mine sees it differently: Rose cheated. Period. End of story. In that vein, I concede the point, because he did willingly and knowingly break a well known taboo in baseball. It makes it harder in some ways to allow him in now, especially with the problems the BBWAA will have in the coming years.
I don't think he cheated though
he broke a well known taboo, sure, but unless they can prove he bet against the team he was managing, I don’t think there’s any way he can have cheated as such,if you take cheated to mean “altered the outcome of a game by unfair or illegal means”.
Shoeless Joe cheated cheated, though, and for that I don’t think he can be forgiven.
It's never been proven that Shoeless Joe actually cheated...and IMO neither did Pete Rose.
Eschew Obfuscation!
Hmm, Wikipedia backs up what you say
Very interesting. Sounds like he might have been innocent after all…
Field of Dreams
makes particular note of the Shoeless Joe experience
"We made too many wrong mistakes." ~Yogi Berra
"The ballplayer who loses his head, who can't keep his cool, is worse than no ballplayer at all." ~Lou Gehrig
JFK
Or in book form
really want to read the book. I understand it’s a lot different than the movie.
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I read it, but it's been awhile.
I remember it was different, but now how much or in what way. But I enjoyed it.
And you actually want just Shoeless Joe, not Shoeless Joe Comes to Iowa (that’s a collections of stories).
Except Pete Rose admitted it.
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 6, 2009 8:30 AM MDT up reply actions
Not what I'm talking about.
He admitted to gambling on his own team, which to me is not cheating.
Eschew Obfuscation!
define "cheating"
because the rules say no gambling
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 6, 2009 1:48 PM MDT up reply actions
Did it affect the course of the baseball game? No it did not.
I see no problem with Pete Rose gambling on his team. Are owners of horses not allowed to gamble on their mounts?
It may be a rule, but it’s a stupid interpretation of the rule.
Eschew Obfuscation!
i agree.
If he were betting against his team that would be different, because it’s a lot easier to determine the outcome that way (sabotage). But he wasn’t. He was betting for his team. I see nothing wrong with that.
But what about the days where he chooses not to bet?
It’s not the same as betting against, sure, but he’s in essence saying “I don’t think we can win this game.”
Yes but
no-one else will know whether he’s bet or not, apart from his bookie perhaps (which I guess could change the odds!). Also, not betting on baseball isn’t against the rules :)
You're right, it's not.
But it would still make me uncomfortable. I just feel like there’s too much potential for shenanigans to allow betting, even if it’s only on your own team to win.
For example, I could see him doing things differently than he might normally for games he didn’t bet on in order to set things up for the next game. Or maybe he overuses the bullpen in one game because he knows he didn’t bet on the next day’s game so it won’t matter if they’re spent. There are definitely ways that betting could have affected game outcomes even if he never bet against his team.
If he bet against the Reds it sure as hell would affect the outcome of the game
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 7, 2009 8:32 AM MDT up reply actions
I know that.
He didn’t, so that is immaterial. If he did that’s a different issue.
Eschew Obfuscation!
How do you know he didn't?
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 7, 2009 9:16 AM MDT up reply actions
oops
actually I “think” he said he only bet ON the Reds..not against the Reds….but it’s been awhile
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he claimed he only bet ON the Reds
And I believe him.
But then again, he’d also said he did nothing for 15 years prior. He published a book though, let’s believe him now!!!
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 7, 2009 9:27 AM MDT up reply actions
Look, if Pete Rose's dishonesty is all that you're building your case on...
there’s no point arguing with you.
I see your point, hopefully you see mine and understand that your point simply doesn’t apply in this situation.
Eschew Obfuscation!
It completely applies!
How many steroid users lied about what they did? They also broke rules, albeit fuzzy and poorly defined rules.
I don’t see how you can simply exclude dishonesty. He managed a baseball team.
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 7, 2009 9:38 AM MDT up reply actions
Since the Black Sox scandal
It’s been a well established rule in every clubhouse, every team, every organization:
There is No Gambling Allowed.
Period.
End of Story.
Black and White right there.
Rose Gambled, therefore breaking the rule.
However, during the height of steroid abuse, there wasn’t clear language, no clear definitions of what constituted using illegal supplements.
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 6, 2009 8:30 AM MDT up reply actions
Think of the difference between gambling (breaking the rules) and doping (cheating) this way:
- betting on your own team to win does not affect the outcome of the game, it does not affect the performance of a team or of individual players.
- roiding gives your team a higher chance of winning, and gives the individual a MUCH better chance of earning fame and big contracts, at the expense of the non-cheats who move one place further down the pecking order for every cheat who slots in above them. Whether you miss out on being the 2nd baseman for the Yankees, or get shoved off your club’s 25-man roster because they gave a huge contract to a slugger, you are directly and negatively affected by another player cheating. And you have tarnished the purity of the game itself.
There’s a fundamental moral AND practical difference between the two. Perhaps the morals of using insider information against bookies isn’t whiter than white, but it’s a lot harder to have sympathy or the bookies.
I am Reds Manager
There are 2 outs in the 9th and my team has a runner on 1B.
The opponents have a catcher with a laser rocket arm.
I give the steal sign.
The runner is out by a mile.
Reds lose.
Did I forget to mention I was betting on the opposition? That is to say, against the Reds?
It doesn’t have to be a bad steal, it could be bringing in a garbage reliever in a tight situation or pinch hitting with Omar Quintanilla instead of Seth Smith.
It may not affect the performance of the specific players, but it will certainly affect the team. And yeah, despite my attempts as manager to sabotage my team so that I win, it’s not always gonna work. The throw might go into CF. Matt Belisle might suddenly pitch a 1-2-3 with 2Ks and a groundout.
But Steroids don’t make every batter suddenly bat .700. The best of them batted .364 in a season. That’s still a pretty big failure rate. (I recognize the season where he walked 200+ times, but he has a naturally superhuman batter’s eye, and he was IBB’d like time and a half more than his NIBB’s that one season.)
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 7, 2009 8:39 AM MDT up reply actions
Again, RMN, betting on your own team, not against it...
you don’t have a leg to stand on with Rose. I see your point, but it doesn’t apply here.
Eschew Obfuscation!
You can't prove he didn't
I see your point, but mine still stands. My legs are just as strong as yours.
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 7, 2009 9:17 AM MDT up reply actions
Well, by and large we're going on an "innocent till proven guilty" basis here
Otherwise we may as well argue on the assumption that EVERYONE’S a cheat in which case the whole point is moot!
While there are suspicions Rose bet against the Reds (and that’s what your example says – it’s facile to suggest there’s a difference between betting on the Reds to lose or on the Reds’ opponent to win), he was acquitted of that particular charge. Now if you want to continue to pursue that avenue YOU have to find the hard evidence you accused me of lacking upthread!
I'm simply providing conjecture
One cheat shouldn’t be given a pass just because he cheated in a nice way.
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 7, 2009 9:28 AM MDT up reply actions
It's only cheating if you get caught...
and Pete Rose, well, got caught. If you’re betting on your own team, that’s motivation for you to play better. Is there anything wrong with that?
Given his career numbers, I’m inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he was probably doing his best to help his team win, not lose.
it would stand to reason
And like I said above, I believe him, but I’m not going to stake anything on it. He’s lied about this the entire way, I don’t see it beyond the fathoms of reason to say that he gave away a meaningless game or two.
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 7, 2009 9:39 AM MDT up reply actions
It's funny that you guys think a player can only bet..
for or against his team. What if Rose bet for his team to win with a 2 run handicap? Or what if he bet the Reds would beat the Pirates by at leat 7 runs? Either scenario could have changed the way he managed the game.
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As long as he wants the Reds to win
Then I’m struggling to think of a circumstance whereby he cheats, the club or the fans.
As long as integrity is a pre-requisite for election to the hall
ANYONE who used PEDs shouldn’t even make it onto the ballot. McGwire and his innocent-till-proven-guilty buddies may get on the ballot but the voters have made their feelings on that pretty clear. I’m cool with that.
I don't think the red sox should hand over their trophy,
but I think when you’re playing a game,
1. Quitters are losers
2. Cheaters are losers
I guess that losers are still losers, though.
Go Rockies!
P.S. Looks like my first Fanpost was a success ; )
Yes it was
Very timely topic, and one that I’ve been interested in for some time. I have had many discussions with fellow brethren of the “Church of the MLB” about this issue. There’s no clear cut answer. In short, MLB has handled the problem very badly.
The latter years, yes, were poorly handled
But MLB had just come off of a strike and interest was very low in baseball. Bud Selig turned a blind eye to juicers, and the long ball once again became in vogue.
McGwire, Sosa, and Griffey saved baseball by having that massive home run race.
http://www.flipflopflyin.com/flipflopflyball/info-1998hrchase.png
While it was using ends to justify means, we might not be enjoying the baseball we once did were it not for these juicers (and Griffey) clubbing baseballs into the stratosphere.
Seth Smith status: Finally Getting Playing time
Mike McCoy status: FREE MIKE MCCOY
by Andrew Martin on Aug 6, 2009 8:34 AM MDT up reply actions
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