Sunday Rockpile: Rockies going through final rinse, hoping to make it through spin cycle

by Rox Girl on Aug 30, 2009 9:42 AM MDT in Rockpile

Yep, there you go, the baseball season as a load of laundry in the wash metaphor. I had something much longer planned this morning about how we as fans assess players, how we tend to look for replacing parts rather than fixing them, whereas coaches and the F.O. would much rather take the opposite approach. Which side is right will depend on the players themselves, it seems. Some are truly beyond fixing and with these the fans calling for their ouster will be correct, but others have the talent within them to be successful with contending teams with some correction.

Chris Iannetta may be a poster boy for this. Some feel he's the most overrated of the Rockies here, but if you read the comments to last night's game thread you will note that the number calling for him to be removed outnumber those of us that aren't. I really think he's shown that he can be a quality catcher, last season as well as his rapid rise through the minors, and I think the lows we're going through with him this year are just a part of his development. I understand completely that this is not the only viable conclusion to come to with our slumping catcher, and that these lows could represent an irreversible turn for the worse. I just don't think there's enough evidence either way to say for sure which side is correct yet.

If Iannetta does come out of it in September, as he's convinced himself that he will, I won't have any feeling of vindication, it will just be one of those situations where the glass we can't really see right now turned out to be more than half full.

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Comments

Tough stretch

Maybe it’s just because I have highly bizarre ways of looking at things, but I haven’t been able to get myself too worked up about this stumble. If it were the end of the season I’d probably be more concerned, but we still have a whole month of baseball to play. The 2007 Rockies run hasn’t even begun yet if we go back there. We blasted out of the gate of the second half and it’s entirely understandable to have a bit of a slump at this point in the season. Sure, they picked some bad series to do it, but hey. There’s still time.

Of course, I’m sure there are thousand of reasons why I really SHOULD be concerned right now. But I just can’t summon the energy to do so. We’ll be fine.

That said, get ’em today boys!!!!!

by Squeaky on Aug 30, 2009 9:59 AM MDT reply actions

There's concern and then there's concern...

It’s a bad stretch to lay an egg, and a win today would be really good. Obviously you’d rather have a 4 game cushion than end up tied. Even so, I still like their chances, despite there being things to worry about. The Rockies have more home games than the Giants, and appear (given their records) to be the better road team as well. I didn’t think this was a .600 team entering the season, but they played at that stretch for a good chunk of games. I think they can rebound and beat the Giants to the finish line.

Leave Dexter alone! You're lucky he even performs for you!

by FooMan on Aug 30, 2009 1:04 PM MDT up reply actions

Iannetta is a more talented and better player than Yorvit Torrealba in every facet of the game...

except perhaps exuberant celebrations.

I can only hope that CDI figures it out in the next few weeks.

Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Aug 30, 2009 10:00 AM MDT reply actions

Yorvit appears to be a faster runner

But like celebrations, that also doesn’t seem to be the most important facet of a catcher’s game.

Leave Dexter alone! You're lucky he even performs for you!

by FooMan on Aug 30, 2009 12:59 PM MDT up reply actions

Too Soon to Judge

This seems like as good a time as any to stop lurking, and join the conversation. It’s too soon to really judge whether Iannetta will be a great catcher, or a perennial backup. We already know he’s a better backstop than Yorvit.
Rox Girl, you are absolutely right that his bat could go either way. A catcher needs a good 4 or 5 years of regular duty to show what he’s got. Since this is effectively Chris’ 2nd year, I’d say we need to give him 2 more years as our #1 guy. If he’s still flirting with the Mendoza Line at that time, then we’ll know.

"There's nothing bad that accrues from baseball." — Bart Giamatti

by Nominal Egg on Aug 30, 2009 10:41 AM MDT reply actions

Welcome,

Two more years seems like a long time . What do we do in the mean time?

by butterfly on Aug 30, 2009 10:48 AM MDT up reply actions

Rely on His Defense

And keep playing him. He’s not exactly costing us games.
I guess the point I’m trying to make is that catchers take time to fully blossom.
Be patient.

"There's nothing bad that accrues from baseball." — Bart Giamatti

by Nominal Egg on Aug 30, 2009 10:59 AM MDT up reply actions

If you look around the league NOW

you will see a lot of catchers that didn’t do much of anything this year.

by Redhawk on Aug 30, 2009 11:03 AM MDT up reply actions

CDI benefits from the Thornton Mellon theory

“If you want to look thin, hang out with fat people”…or, if you want to disguise your unappealing stats, compare them to other catchers…

by Teekalong on Aug 30, 2009 11:06 AM MDT up reply actions

Baseball career arcs are going to be changing

and I think they are as we speak. In the past, it was a fairly steady rise to their 27 b-day..then they had 2 or 3 or maybe 4 years of being at their peak. Then once they hit 30 or 31 their was a huge drop off. Only the hall of fame type exceptions to prove the rule. ‘Roids changed that, many players looked great earlier, and later. Now that we don’t have ’roids, things will change, but not as they were before, as there is greater physical training, diet then before.

As for Iannetta (or any real prospect) there is usually three years or so. If they get more then that it’s cause they’ve either shown enough flashes, to get more time, or there just isn’t a better alternative in the system to replace them. For Chris I think next year will be make or break. Same with Stewart.

But the Rockies (I hope) want to win every year. Having a player fail doesn’t help them win. There is a point where they should be replaced. Fans and organizations do get too married by marginal talents. They wait around for their “can’t miss prospect, next big thing” to live up to the billing. And if they don’t while the team is waiting that player is bringing the team down. Can’t miss guys miss all the time. It’s why building from with-in is so hard to do. It’s not like the Indians or the Royals aren’t trying to do the same thing…but their guys aren’t coming through like the Rockies and Twins have lately.

and welcome

by Redhawk on Aug 30, 2009 10:56 AM MDT up reply actions

agreed here

CDI needs to grab a stranglehold on the job next year. This is already his 3rd year with the opportunity to clearly separate himself, and so far he’s shown some of the “flashes” you talk about and he’s obviously not among the worst Cs in baseball, but he hasn’t locked it down either.

But that’s a long time away, I’m more worried about him helping us in this little September stretch coming up. He can make us all forget these issues with a strong month here…

by Teekalong on Aug 30, 2009 11:02 AM MDT up reply actions

CDI can help us in September by throwing out baserunners and blocking pitches in the dirt, and throwing in an occasional base hit with men on. If you want more offense, we need Hawpe to get back to his first-half self, and Barmes needs to stop popping everything up. Those guys have been frustrating me more than CDI.

(And thanks for the “welcomes”!)

"There's nothing bad that accrues from baseball." — Bart Giamatti

by Nominal Egg on Aug 30, 2009 11:18 AM MDT up reply actions

My dad had an interesting observation...

Which is of course based on nothing but pure speculation, but he remarked that during the first half Brad just seemed to be bringing a different attitude to his at-bats. Everything was a battle; he never gave in and just swung at stuff, and he ground out the at bat until he got what he wanted. To me, it almost seems like he’s not taking control of the at-bat and is more cruising through it. Maybe it’s just because he’s a streaky hitter, but that’s just what I’ve noticed.

And Barmes needs to learn how to not pop up. It seems to be all he does these days.

by Squeaky on Aug 30, 2009 11:29 AM MDT up reply actions

I want those things

Plus more offense. Not too much to ask, right? You are correct that Hawpe and others also need to carry their burden, but for the most part, they have. We’re trying to make the playoffs here, and unless our starters suddenly all start shutting everyone out like SFs do, then we’re going to need more productivity from everyone. CDI doesn’t get a pass just because his defense is better than Yorvits’.

by Teekalong on Aug 30, 2009 11:35 AM MDT up reply actions

I think this is mostly irrelevant to the Rockies

even if it were true. I don’t really see them investing big bucks to keep players during their FA years, with the possible exception of the true stars. This is the right way to go, steroid-fueled late 30’s productivity or not, if the team isn’t going to invest $100 million in payroll. The Tulo/Ubaldo/Hawpe type deals where they give guaranteed contracts in return for buying out a FA year or two are much better bets. Assuming you have a decent success rate in choosing the players, you’re paying out less money than a FA deal, and the players will likely be as productive.

Leave Dexter alone! You're lucky he even performs for you!

by FooMan on Aug 30, 2009 1:12 PM MDT up reply actions

we will get the wild card. i can feel it

by Kittiesroxursox on Aug 30, 2009 10:53 AM MDT reply actions

Even after this week

I still think the Rockies will win the division in that final 3 games in LA at the end of the year.

Here’s why it’s too early for doom and gloom: The Rockies have had a rash of injuries, unlike any they have had in a few years. They lost 2 position starters in Fowler, and CarGo, and their #3 (and opening day #1) starter in Cook. This happens.

but the good news is: The Rockies play a lot of games at home, against, not good teams, that will be scouting talent for next year. This will help them get some wins. CarGo could be back this week. Fowler in a little more then a week. So the Rockies will be getting healthy. Furcal won’t get any younger, the SF Giants won’t get a starter back. The Rockies do. I expect the Rockies to have a good September, better then the Dodger and Giants, and win the west in that last weekend.

by Redhawk on Aug 30, 2009 11:02 AM MDT up reply actions

I can't see

catching the Dodgers (though I hope you are right) and I foresee a dogfight down the stretch with SF and Atl (too much good pitching for either to slip). But it’ll be fun nonetheless. Really, before the season if you would have told me that the Rox would start September no worse than tied for the WC lead, I would have taken it with a big smile. Now its showtime.

by Teekalong on Aug 30, 2009 11:05 AM MDT up reply actions

I agree that CDI

is more talented than Yorvit, I don’t think anyone has ever disputed that…but he is flat out not getting it done right now, and the team needs him to get it in gear.

A quick perusal of Yorvit’s August suggests that he’s just been more effective — he’s on a 9-game hitting streak when he starts, and the last 3 have been multi-hit games. 14 hits and 4 walks in 11 starts (41 abs), whereas CDI has 11 hits and 8 walks in 16 starts (57 abs). From a non-stats perspective, Yorvit has also been passing the eye test, getting on board in late innings in close games. Giving his team a chance to win.

Now, obviously Yorvit isn’t killing it to the point where it seems clear a change is the best choice, and I suspect Yorvit might not continue to produce at this level with a heavier workload (or even at the current rate anyway). But it might make sense to ride Yorvit more while he’s hot. I know I’m one of the few posters here that doesn’t hate Yorvit and isn’t head-over-heels for CDI, but fact is our backup catcher is doing his job right now and our starter is not and we need to figure this out or we’re going to be looking up in the standings soon.

by Teekalong on Aug 30, 2009 10:58 AM MDT reply actions

I totally agree

my only issue really with Yorvit, is he has SUCH a weak arm. Iannetta is average, but looks like a cannon in comparison. If we play a running team, I’d play Iannetta. But Yorvit has earned more playing time….and Iannetta hasn’t

by Redhawk on Aug 30, 2009 11:06 AM MDT up reply actions

All True

But you are focusing exclusively on offense. How many passed balls/wild pitches has Yorvit allowed in that same time frame? Too many.
Don’t get me wrong. I like Yorvit. He’s a pretty good backup catcher. We are better at the position than we have been in a long time (maybe ever).
I just think CDI’s best years are ahead of him, Yorvit’s are not.

"There's nothing bad that accrues from baseball." — Bart Giamatti

by Nominal Egg on Aug 30, 2009 11:08 AM MDT up reply actions

I agree with your conclusion re the future value of each

No question really. CDI has a chance to be great still, Yorvit is what he is. I also agree that CDI is the superior defensive player, but I’m not sure that its a materially significant difference in terms of w/l. Yorvit’s miscues are amplified around here, and CDI’s are understated. But in either case, not often that I feel that C defense has cost us games when Yorvit is playing. (Perhaps CDI’s defense is actually winning us games, to be fair, and I just don’t pick it up, but it doesn’t seem so). We had won the 7 straight Yorvit starts in August before the last two, the Padilla game and last night, neither of which were impacted by Yorvit’s poor defense.

Whatever, I’m not advocating a major shakup, just perhaps mixing in Yorvit more while he’s hot and hoping that CDI figures it out fast.

by Teekalong on Aug 30, 2009 11:16 AM MDT up reply actions

I don't know the statistics..perhaps someone could find out

Is the higher number of passed balls/wild pitches primarily due to Torrealba catching mostly for the typically more wild Jimenez and DeLaRosa?

by SDcat09 on Aug 30, 2009 11:30 AM MDT up reply actions

I haven't looked up the numbers either...

…but I don’t think so. I think it’s more a technique thing. CDI tends to get his body in front of a ball in the dirt better, and keep it in front of him. Yorvit seems to try to glove everything without moving his feet. And that’s just lazy.

"There's nothing bad that accrues from baseball." — Bart Giamatti

by Nominal Egg on Aug 30, 2009 11:35 AM MDT up reply actions

I may be reading baseball reference stats wrong

But I can’t find WP stats for this year, and only 2 passed balls for each guy. Last year, CDI had 37 WP and 6 PB in 837 innings, Yorvit had 24 and 4, respectively, in 581 innings. I’m sure some advanced stats guy will come along soon enough to tell my why I’m wrong, but overall those numbers seem pretty equal. In any event, impossible to draw real conclusions from numbers without actually seeing the plays in question, and again not saying Yorvit is better (or even close to as good)….but rather just noting that I’m not sure that the difference is really hurting us in a material way.

by Teekalong on Aug 30, 2009 11:58 AM MDT up reply actions

Good point

I’m a big fan of playing the hot guy.
Resting Iannetta more right now is probably a good idea. But in the last 2-3 weeks, and playoffs, I’d rather see Chris.

"There's nothing bad that accrues from baseball." — Bart Giamatti

by Nominal Egg on Aug 30, 2009 11:22 AM MDT reply actions