Franklin Morales Starter or Reliever
by SimchaWard on Sep 8, 2009 9:37 PM MDT
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PrintI know we have to finish this playoff run first, but something about Morales replacing Street as our closer has really had me thinking.
First, I think placing Morales in the ninth inning role over Betancourt is first and formost to give the kid an emotional boost, and secondly to test the his future value to the Rockies in a late inning/high pressure role. Betancourt is gone next year, and we already know his value, and as a solid vet I dont think getting bypassed for temporary closer meant much to him. But it means a lot for Morales
Morales is staying in the pen for the rest of the year and playoffs. He will not usurp Streets closing job, and will go back to a setup role when street is back.
But next year, Is morales coming into camp battleing for a back end start job with Chacin, Francis, Hammel, and (???)
Or is he fighting a healthy Taylor and Manny for the bridge to Huston in the pen
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for a back end start job with Chacin, Francis, Hammel, and (???)
I don’t think he’ll be in the rotation mix simply for the three names already on this list. If we keep Marquis and De La Rosa around, then we have one rotation spot open and these three names are already above Marquis as rotation-caliber pitchers. I think that this season has proven that Morales is very effective out of the pen, and probably is most effective in that role. We all have seen how frustrated he can get when he starts missing the strike zone, and a limited role where he can just pound the zone repeatedly is probably the best fit for him.
tl;dr Morales will make a perfect 7th or 8th inning guy next year.
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er, above Morales
Both start with M, have 7 letters, wear purple uniforms…
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I hope against hope that the Rockies will put him back as a starter...
even as a dominant closer, Morales would have less value to the team than if he were a serviceable 3/4/5 starter, which he definitely should be.
Eschew Obfuscation!
And I should add that Morales' ceiling is a 2-type starter, which is MUCH more valuable.
Eschew Obfuscation!
I agree
I don’t know what they will do, and I don’t know if Morales will stick in the rotation given that he’s had some issues with walks and injuries in the past (depends on how patient the team is, I suppose). But I’d like to see them give it a shot.
This year’s rotation worked out great, and all the top prospects in the system are starting pitchers, but building a rotation is not that easy. Pitchers, incl. Morales, can always be moved to closer.
Leave Dexter alone! You're lucky he even performs for you!
ahh, thank you!!
morales upside is far far higher than a bottom of the rotation guy.
he’s 23 – give him some time to work on his control, and the mental side of the game. he’s already shown a LOT of improvement.
98 mph with his breaking stuff – coming from the left side???
ubaldo and franklin, coming down the tracks 1… 2….. booom!!!!
I wouldn't be surprised
if two rotation spots are open next year. I assume that Jason Marquis will leave as a free agent, as the Rockies are unlikely to match a multi-year offer that he will almost assuredly receive from someone. Also, I think that the Rockies may shop Jason Hammel during the offseason. His splits at Coors Field are ugly, he’s arbitration eligible, and could help restock our system with a mid-grade prospect or two.
Between Francis, Morales, Chacin, and Rogers, I think that we can fill in two spots in the rotation. My early choices would be Francis (if healthy) and Morales, with Chacin gaining a year of experience out of the pen. Of course, DOD has also repeatedly demonstrated a knack for salvaging someone else’s unwanted starter into a serviceable rotation piece.
a couple of thoughts
Hammel has really improved over the last month. Scraping his 2 finger, sinking fastball, has helped him a lot. Because he’s still controllable I don’t think he’s going anywhere. BUT he would have value if traded and the Rockies do have depth at SP which is always in demand, and a team can never have too much of (but It looks like to me the Rockies might push that and have too much)
Right now the Rotation for 2010 is:
Jimenez
Cook
JDLR
Hammel
OPEN
And 5th spot would be between Rogers, Chacin (year at AAA injury fill-in wouldn’t hurt him), Francis (if healthy…I could see him starting in the bull pen as a long reliever/lefty to build up arm, and regain form.) Morales, Greg Smith, and the unknown outside the organization scrap heap project. (and I’d love for Marquis to come back)
Morales long term will be more valuable as a starter. Any starter is more valuable then a reliever, even a dominant closer, or set up guy. BUT mentally it looks to me that Morales has enjoyed being in the pen. He likes the closer role, and has that “Hit THIS mf’er fastball, you som b#$%H” attitude.
SO, ultimately I think it’s up to Morales. He would be more valuable as a starter…but if wants to be in the pen, and feels better there, like Bucholtz, then it would be best to put him where HE feels best at. So the Choice, will be Morales.
Good pt about Morales's mentality
His approach will have a big influence. Some players do prefer to be in the pen and he’s getting a taste of being the closer.
As for the Rockies having too much depth, they’re not there yet. Rogers, Chacin and Friedrich could fail and/or get hurt. One of this year’s guys could get hurt, too. (Heck, Cook already is, though so far, so good, knock on wood, etc.)
Leave Dexter alone! You're lucky he even performs for you!
I
agree. Watching him start used to drive me crazy with all of his fidgeting and lack of concentration. And he didn’t throw 97 and 98 as a starter. His whole demeanor on the mound seems better out of the bullpen.
by DieHardRox on Sep 9, 2009 9:50 AM MDT up reply actions
can't find references
(sorry about that) but i know tracy said that morales is not a starter and added something to the effect that if morales goes too long in a game bad things happen. i also believe i read a couple of weeks ago that morales actually said what you wrote, redhawk, that he is really enjoying bullpen work.
my guess is that with street’s future money, the rockies will want to find him expendable and look to morales as the closer.
that said, i’d like to see him try starting again. he’s so much better mentally and control-wise than he was before.
I
don’t agree. His 2 inning stints have not been as impresive.
by DieHardRox on Sep 9, 2009 9:55 AM MDT up reply actions
this was all i could find...
regarding the closer role:
“That’s a good role,” Morales said. “I’m very happy for that.”
i guess i’ll go with inconclusive. :-)
I remember the Tracy line
I don’t remember Morales saying one way or the other (which doesn’t mean I didn’t miss it either way) his preference. But it looks like to me coming out of the pen Morales doesn’t have to think. He looks to me to be one of those guys that’s got that mental tape player running, and the more it runs, the more doubt and insecurity comes out. But in the pen, he doesn’t have to time to listen to that crap.
It’s easier to see Morales as a dominate set up guy or a closer, cause he’s doing it now. I think he could be dominate starter…but it will take more time and work to get from good to great.
All good points
I’d just like to interject that Morales has a pretty good repertoire of pitches he can throw (fastball, curve, and slider), which is probably better suited for a starter than a reliever. Let’s also not forget that he’s a pretty good hitter. When he was originally recruited by the Rockeis weren’t they trying to figure out whether he was going to play the outfield or be a pitcher? Before he was injured earlier in the season, he was doing alright in the starting rotation. In short, I think he’s too talented to relegate to the bullpen.
by Geriatric Gerry on Sep 9, 2009 11:14 AM MDT up reply actions
exactly what i was thinking
only better said. i remember in 2007, espn had an mlb scout on talking about rockies pitching and he basically said, yes, ubaldo’s got talent and great upside, but the guy to watch is morales. okay, so he was probably wrong, but still… you put it in a nutshell—there’s just too much talent there and that’s what kind of nags at you when you see him only going for 3 outs.
the catch is, like everyone else is saying, if the talent’s there but the mental makeup isn’t…
Why not resign Marquis?
And keep Francis and Morales in the pen, Letting Francis re-gain his form and letting Morales learn more control from the pen.
Signing Marquis would be the ideal situation.
But it is also cost prohibitive.
I think Morales’ time in the pen (esp. in the closer’s role) has already done its job in helping him learn control. What I’d like to see from the off-season and ST is working on improving his lesser pitches and stretching him out so he can go back into the starting rotation. I am not wholly optimistic that this will happen, though.
On a related side note
Street is going to arbitration and will probably make more money because he’s had a great year. We’re already paying Corpas closer money because we thought he would be the closer of the future when Fuentes went down. Why do we need another closer (Morales)? I know he will get the normal raise but I don’t want to lose Street and Corpas has too much for what he’s giving. Morales should get a chance to start again, if he is unsuccessful, as many have pointed out he could be, then back to the bullpen full-time.
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JFK
because then we'll have so many awesome bullpen arms we'll be able to re-rest our starters next season
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by Andrew Martin on Sep 9, 2009 11:59 AM MDT up reply actions
Morales may stay a reliever next year
for no other reason than the Rockies will have a shortage of left-handed arms in the pen. Will Embree and Beimel come back next year? Do we sign someone in the offseason? I don’t think Randy Flores is the answer. Assuming Francis is healthy, he’s likely going to be a starter.
by Geriatric Gerry on Sep 9, 2009 1:13 PM MDT up reply actions
that makes too much sense.
… i’d like to see us go with every fifth day being “hodgepodge day” and have the relievers all just take an inning or two in no particular order. this would have many promotional possibilities as well…
this is hilarious
I was just thinking pitchers only go like 4-5 innings, bullpen eats souls, game over, so they’re all rested and we make the postseason.
But your idea is funny. I like it.
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by Andrew Martin on Sep 9, 2009 1:37 PM MDT up reply actions
You could even put all their names in a hat and have fans pull one out every inning or two.
How awesome would that be.
Corpas is only sort of making closer money
Obviously he got the contract because they thought he’d be playing a bigger role than he has, and a middle reliever wouldn’t make what he’s set to make during his 1st 2 arb years. Next year (his first bought out arb year), he’ll be at $2.75M, then $3.5M (or $4.5, apparently there’s an escalator clause, seems unlikely he’ll hit it with the injury), with a $250,000 buyout for 2012. That would be a pretty normal deal for a FA middle reliever who’s good-not-great. Hopefully Corpas can actually be good when he returns. He seemed like he was getting things together the month before he got hurt.
Leave Dexter alone! You're lucky he even performs for you!
you don't lock up young relief pitching
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by Andrew Martin on Sep 9, 2009 3:10 PM MDT up reply actions
How about this rotation...
Jimenez, Cook, JDLR, healthy Francis, good Morales (in no particular order beyond Ubaldo)
kinda makes me drool over the possibilities
That's a very good rotation.
But pretty unlikely. I see it as being Jimenez/Cook/DLR/Hammel/Francis. Chacin held in AAA until someone gets injured or Francis blows up.
Morales will probably be allowed to compete for a starting spot in spring training, but our lack of left handed relief pitching leads to him being used as a LOOGY and set-up man. By 2011, he’s a closer. It just seems like that’s where this is headed.
LOOGY insinuates 1 out.
Morales is not a LOOGY. I think we all need to move past that phrasing.
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by Andrew Martin on Sep 9, 2009 11:49 PM MDT up reply actions
Hammel belongs in that rotation
period
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by Andrew Martin on Sep 9, 2009 11:48 PM MDT up reply actions
This is a little late, but I need to put in my 2 cents
I’ve said it many times before, but he needs to be in the rotation. I know Morales has looked great in the pen, he gives us a left handed arm in the pen, he seems to be pitching better in that role, etc., etc. However, here is my thought on this, and this part has been said before, but a starter is more valuable than a reliever and bigger than that, is his upside. He has more upside than any guy not named Ubaldo in the current rotation and any guy that is close to MLB ready. From what I’ve seen of Chacin he doesn’t have the same stuff, Friedrich doesn’t seem to have quite the stuff, and that leaves maybe Matzek who is not even close to ready (obviously).
There were some good points about his fastball not being the same as a starter, but is that because he can just let it go when he only has 1 inning to pitch or is that because he is healthier and has figured out his delivery. I wonder this because he used to pitch in the upper 90’s as a starter in the minor leagues, and I think he can recapture that. If he can it is worth trying. Having 2 dominating starters is huge to help win in the playoffs, and we don’t have that right now. We have a very deep rotation that is pitching very well, but I still don’t think if Marquis is on the mound I know we will win. I only feel that extreme confidence w/ Jimenez, and I think Morales could give us a 2nd extremely talented starter that can dominate a game.
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If he's going back to the rotation, he has some work to do
To refute an earlier point, Morales hasn’t figured out his delivery persay, he’s gotten rid of it. Morales throws exclusively out of the stretch now and has assumed the “closer’s” delivery. Morales has extended his arm action, especially in the backend, which adds violence as he speeds up to his release point. This max effort has also generated a bit of recoil in his finish, and Morales no longer seems concerned in trying to finish in any sort of consistent position. In other words, he’s selling out for power.
There’s nothing wrong with that, but none of it is really conducive to starting. Morales’ increased power is helping to mask his still erratic command and control. The fear would be if he had to give back some power, costing him in K/9 and H/9, his BB/9 near 4 would become a larger issue. Add in that Morales is generally a flyball pitcher, and you could see some negative trending in his numbers.
On a pure stuff level you’d like to see the conversion back, but I’m not convinced it translates. For starter’s, he’d have to show he can carry over his success to the windup, which he no longer has (which is still only used 1/3 of the time pitching anyways). Then, he’d have to show a smoother, shorter arm action and a more consistent release point, as he will likely be 91-93 instead of 97 starting.
I believe Morales has made the mechanical adjustments you typically see in converts to relief that shows he’s likely going to settle in this role. The Rockies have a plethora of depth in their starting ranks that they don’t need to attempt to re-program Morales.
you just sayin what I'm thinkin
but you actually have something to say rather than my vague “he can go balls-out as a RP, but he has to water things down as a starter”
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by Andrew Martin on Sep 10, 2009 10:35 PM MDT up reply actions
While you are obviously more closely watching his delivery than I am
although I have noticed him pitching exclusively out of the stretch, I didn’t look closely at all the arm positioning issues that you bring up, so I would tend to trust you in all of that. I however strongly disagree w/ your last statement. I guess I don’t disagree that we have depth, I disagree that we shouldn’t try and re-program him. I have yet to see a guy in our system that touches his stuff. I have not seen Friedrich in person, but from what I read he will settle into a fastball sitting 90-92, and I am not hearing that it has the same life that Morales has on his, so I don’t think he compares. The only guy, as I said earlier, that might compare favorably to Morales is Matzek, and he migh be even better. I hope Matzek is better and is a stud in our rotation, but he won’t be for at least 2-3 years. We need a true #2, or at least I think it would help to have a true #2, Morales is the only guy I’ve seen on this roster w/ the potential stuff to be that.
I think we can win w/ several #3’s as we are this year, and I may be off on DLR. DLR might be a guy that could be a true #2 if he figures out the mental side, but I think our shot at making a serious run in the playoffs would be considerably higher w/ a true #2. Another poster compared Morales to Wainwright in moving him from dominant pen arm to dominant starter and thats what I am envisioning. If all that you say above is true and he can not be converted back to starter or is unsuccesful in doing so, I am all for him as a future closer/setup man, but I think it is more than worth the try.
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