Why 2010 will not be like 2008.
In the Sunday edition of the Rockpile, RoxGirl touched on a topic that's a little sensitive to Rockies fans. It's a topic we all would like to avoid but it's also a thought that has probably crossed each and every one of our minds; "what if the 2010 Rockies end up just like the 2008 Rockies?". Injured, underachieving, embarrassed, and playing meaningless games in late September. It seems like a fair question to ask right? Both teams are coming off extremely successful seasons in which the Rockies clinched a playoff birth after a slow start, both teams saw the front office stand pat (for the most part) during the off-season, and both teams are relying on young and still somewhat unproven players to fill big rolls on the team.
Fear not fellow Rowbots because that's where the similarities end. Is it possible that the 2010 Rockies could be like the 2008? Sure it's baseball, anythings possible; but it's highly unlikely. Join me after the jump to find out five major reasons why.
1) Injuries
The 2008 edition of the Rockies had to deal with the injury bug all season long. It wasn't just that the team was never fully healthy, it was that the roster turned into a revolving door of players. During the 2008 season only four Rockies' players appeared in more than 107 games. While this may not sound significant, it means that only four everyday starters did not miss at least a third of the season; compare that with last year's Rockies in which eight players appeared in at least 133 games and it starts to show how depleted the 08 version of the team became. I understand the 09 team was lucky when it came to injuries but even the most pessimistic Rockies fan can't expect a repeat of 08 in which Tulo, Helton, Holliday, Barmes, Hawpe, Spilborghs, and Francis all spent time on the DL. (Note: Several other players went on the DL too, these were just the productive ones)
What would need to happen to the 2010 Rockies to be like 2008?
Let's see, the Rockies projected everyday starters are Helton, Barmes, Tulo, Stewart, Iannetta, Cargo, Fowler, and Hawpe/Smith. Pick a random six and imagine what would happen if they all went on the DL at some point in the season.
2) Stars that didn't Shine
In 2008 the Rockies were counting on Francis to be their Ace, Tulo to be their leader, and Helton to be Helton. None of these things came close to happening. Francis's win total fell from 17 to 4 while his ERA and FIP soared to 5.01 and 4.81 respectively, Tulo when he wasn't on the DL had an OPS of .732, and Todd Helton had what was unquestionably the worst year of his career hitting 64 points below his career average and 215 points below his career OPS. Yes all three of these were injury related and this point is connected to point number one, but it's important to understand how poorly these players played when they were not on the DL. It's very possible that when their careers are over, Francis, Tulo, and Helton will all be able to say that 2008 was their worst season ever production wise.
What would need to happen to the 2010 Rockies to be like 2008?
The Rockies would have to get close to nothing out of Tulo, Helton, and one of their top three starters. I'd say this is highly unlikely.
3) Ubaldo wasn't Ubaldo yet
While Ubaldo Jimenez was part of the magical 2007 Rocktober run, 2008 was still his first full season in the major leagues. By all accounts, Jimenez had a typical year for a young pitcher with a high upside; one that had its fair share of growing pains. By the end of June, Ubaldo was 2-8 with a 4.71 ERA and had only pitched more than 6 innings four times. (I would use more Saber stats here but they are not available in the game log feature of baseball reference) While he did recover and post strong numbers in the second half of the season, the Rockies as a team were already in too big of a hole to dig out of.
What would need to happen to the 2010 Rockies to be like 2008?
Ubaldo would probably have to get injured for half of the season to get a lack of production like this. While Ubaldo is a slow starter there would be no reason to expect him to pitch like this for three months. The Rockies have a pitcher in Ubaldo going into 2010 that they did not have in 2008. Sure Francis was considered the Ace but Ubaldo has the ability to become a truly dominant starter. One that opponents see on the schedule and say "Crap!!! Were probably going to lose that game."
4) Pitching, Pitching, and more Pitching
The Rockies are in soooooooo much better shape pitching wise going into 2010 than they were in 2008. On top of the Francis injury/ineffectiveness and Ubaldo's inexperience, the 2008 Rockies had to deal with a serious lack of pitching depth. Without any talent at the bottom of the rotation, Rockie fans were left to watch in horror as Mark Redman, Glendon Rusch, Greg Reynolds, Livan Hernandez, Kip Wells, Franklin Morales, and Valerio De Los Santos (Who the Hell?) all made MULTIPLE starts. That's right, the 2008 Rockies were so short on pitching that they actually let all of these tools start more than once.
What would need to happen to the 2010 Rockies to be like 2008?
ALL of the potential back of the rotation guys such as Jeff Francis, Greg Smith, Franklin Morales (again), Jhoulys Chacin.........ect would have to be this much of an atrocity. Again highly unlikely.
5) Willy Taveras and his God Awful .604 OPS won't be patrolling center on the 2010 Edition of the team.
Remember earlier when I said that only four Rockies played in more than 107 games in 2008? Unfortunately one of those players was Willy Taveras who somehow managed to make his way into 133 the Rockies played that season. While he did have 68 stolen bases, (which was even more amazing considering his .308 OBP) no amount of speed on the base paths can ever come close to making up for that .604 OPS. Sorry Willy it just can't.
What would need to happen to the 2010 Rockies to be like 2008?
Pretty much the only way the Rockies could have an OPS this bad from their center fielder in 2010 is to call up the Reds, trade for Willy Taveras, and play him 133 times in center. Seriously, he was that bad.
OK
Time to see what you think.
Eat. Drink. Be Merry. But the above FanPost does not necessarily reflect the attitudes, opinions, or views of Purple Row's staff (unless, of course, it's written by the staff [and even then, it still might not]).
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Good Post RIR
But topic #4 made me throw up in my mouth a little bit. Try to remember some people may have weak stomachs before you show something that gruesome
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there is a man on base.
Yeah I guess I shouldn't have posted this around dinner time for those of you in the Mountian Time Zone
Maybe I’ll put up a warning next time. :-)
"On my tombstone just write, The sorest loser that ever lived." Earl Weaver
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 11, 2010 8:26 PM MST up reply actions
Good work RIR
but you are calling Franklin Morales a tool?
Dear Rockies-Thank you for a wonderful season! Best turnaround in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-The clutchiest, most en fuego catcher the Rox ever had(IMO)!
Brad Hawpe- I wuv you THIS MUCH. Stop missing balls by that much too please:)
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
Well not Franklin specifically
He was just part of that 2008 group of epic suck. I mean in five starts that year he posted a 6.39 ERA, a 1.78 WHIP and a hideous 0.53 SO/BB ratio. I’m still not ready to give up on him but he was horrifying to watch in 08.
I agree he wasn’t the worst though.
Kip Wells for instance is a whole tool box. I will never and I mean never be able to get that July start against the Dodgers where he faced 10 batters and only retired one of them out of my mind. It was the only time I’ve watch a game and truly believed in my heart that I could have done a better job than the actual starting pitcher. OMG Kip Wells is the Grand Pubah of suck. The only good thing about this start was that he was soooooooooooooo bad that the Rockies had to move him to the bullpen and adventully off the team.
"On my tombstone just write, The sorest loser that ever lived." Earl Weaver
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 11, 2010 8:37 PM MST up reply actions
Sad thing about that Wells start
is that I can tell you that I was driving on I-70 coming back from a family reunion in Eugene, Oregon when that game came on. We were 10 miles east of Grand Junction when I told my dad to turn the radio off because I didn’t want to listen to that any more.
JFK
It's funny
When really good or really bad things happen to us we can remember exactly where we were when the occured. It just goes to show that this July start in the middle of a lost season for the Rockies was really that bad.
"There's no clock in baseball and we proved it" Clint Hurdle after the 22 inning game.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 16, 2010 2:09 AM MST up reply actions
HA!!! Luuuuuuv your new sig line :)
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
Enjoy it while it last
It will be gone in a day or too :-)
"There's no clock in baseball and we proved it" Clint Hurdle after the 22 inning game.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 16, 2010 1:06 PM MST up reply actions
RIRF
doesn’t quite roll off the tongue like RMN does.
Excellent article, though, and highlights a lot of what I’m feeling in regards to 2010. I think the biggest question marks right now are if Uball will become Deity Uball and if Tulo can avoid the slow start. If both of these occur, 2010 will be markedly better than 2008.
Also, I had to laugh when you dedicated a whole point to Taveras.
"Admirably obsessive." - Uni Watch, March 24th, 2009
NA34 | HK | RMN
"Even our depth has depth." - Silverblood
I know I'm not really one to speak
about abbreviated usernames, of course.
"Admirably obsessive." - Uni Watch, March 24th, 2009
NA34 | HK | RMN
"Even our depth has depth." - Silverblood
No you're right
Maybe I should just use RIR like RMN says sometimes or possibly only shorten it halfway to RIRoxfan. I’ll have to think about it. :-)
"On my tombstone just write, The sorest loser that ever lived." Earl Weaver
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 12, 2010 11:48 PM MST up reply actions
we'll just call you Rockie Rhode
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there is a man on base.
Or we could just pronounce it. It has a vowel.
Of course, it sounds like a dog barking, but hey. It’s a suggestion.
ah, I love my username
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 2:15 PM MST up reply actions
I love lamp

If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there is a man on base.
That's just because you want to see SD and I fight like cats and dogs :-)
"On my tombstone just write, The sorest loser that ever lived." Earl Weaver
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 12, 2010 11:49 PM MST up reply actions
Agree on the Tulo and Ubaldo points
With this young nucleus of players, Tulo is the most imporant (everyday) starter and Ubaldo is our most important pitcher. If both of these guys blossum into elite players, which I think they are very close to doing, the the hardest part of the table is set for the Rockies for the next five seasons. (We have both of these players under control if we want through 2014) I think you hit the nail on the head, Tulo and Ubaldo are the two biggest things that have me most excited about this team for years to come.
Willy Taveras was a whole lot worse than people think. I’m under the impression that a lot of Rockie fans remember him as the player hit .320 in 2007, played great defense, stole a bunch of bases, and was part of the 2007 Rocktober run and therefore gave him a pass on 2008. But you can’t let yourself forget how bad that .604 OPS and 0.0 WAR was in 2008. Also, it wasn’t like it was a fill in player doing this, Willy was in the lineup almost every single day and worse yet batting leadoff most of the time. How can you win when your leadoff guy has a .308 OBP? In 2009 the Rockies had a mix of rookies in the leadoff spot (Dex, Cargo, EY2, and Smith) and they still had a .351 OBP . I don’t want anyone to underestimate how important that was to our improvment last year and our hopeful success thies year.
"On my tombstone just write, The sorest loser that ever lived." Earl Weaver
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 13, 2010 12:25 AM MST up reply actions
Oh and one more thing on Taveras
If you want to feel bad for someone feel bad for Reds fans. After that dreadful 2008 season with the Rockies the Reds somehow signed Taveras to a two year deal woth 6.25 million. Last year Taveras was even worse than he was in 2008 and in 102 games, (how did he get in 102 games?) he had a .275 OBP, a .559 OPS, and a -0.3 WAR.
"On my tombstone just write, The sorest loser that ever lived." Earl Weaver
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 13, 2010 12:31 AM MST up reply actions
That's a pretty good WAR..
considering he had such offensive batting numbers.
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Agreed on Taveras
He was BAAAAD. On the upside I am looking for a great year from Fowler. He has .370 OBP ability if he really settles in at the plate. If you look at the Rockies top 3 it’s seems like a very real possibility that they all can have an OBP well over .350. What that means is that Tulo will come up with guys on base almost every time and I like that.
I’d say the only other thing I would add as to why 2010 will be better than 2008 is that the Rockies have a much deeper starting pitching arsenal to chose from if one of the other starters goes down. There are possible 5 young prospects who look to be very legitimate SPs that can be called up.
Great post RIR
Agree on Fowler and if anything I think you are underestiamting his potential
Last year Fowler as a 23 year old rookie making the steep jump from AA to the majors posted a .363 OBP. I was extremely impressed. He had a .431 OBP in 2008 in Tulsa so I don’t think that a .380 or even .390 OBP is out the question for 2010. (.390 might be a little high but I don’t think it’s impossible)
"Candlestick was built on the water. It should have been built under it." Roger Maris
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 13, 2010 8:36 PM MST up reply actions
I'd like to see him hit 40 2-baggers
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 13, 2010 11:07 PM MST up reply actions
He had 29 last year so that seems like a reasonable goal.
"Candlestick was built on the water. It should have been built under it." Roger Maris
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 13, 2010 11:18 PM MST up reply actions
It would be truly fantastic if Dex could move up another level next year
And there’s every reason to think he can. And I’ll put big $$$ on his UZR being way better this season, too.
That's like saying Yuniesky Betancourt won't have as bad of a WAR in 2010 :)
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 14, 2010 9:36 AM MST up reply actions
except he's 27
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 14, 2010 10:07 AM MST up reply actions
Sure, but from the premise of "there's no where to go but up"...
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 14, 2010 10:14 AM MST up reply actions
I'd like to see him steal the 2nd bag 40 times too
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 14, 2010 9:35 AM MST up reply actions
well I guess that too, if he can be more effective in doing it
but my point is I want him to really develop those gap skills
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 14, 2010 10:08 AM MST up reply actions
Well they don't have to be exclusive skills
Hit 40 doubles and steal 40 bags. Sounds good to me
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 14, 2010 10:14 AM MST up reply actions
I agree
my only concern is that with 40 bag potential Tracy will try and make him into a bunty slaphitter
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 14, 2010 10:21 AM MST up reply actions
Definetly a good cause for concern
I don’t see Tracy trying putting limitations on him tho, especially this early in his developement. My concern is how he does from the left side of the plate. I understand he’s only been switching hitting for three-ish years, but there were times last season where he didn’t look pretty at all from the left side.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there is a man on base.
it's not so much limitations as trying to make him like Dave Roberts
and making him do things that he may not really be meant to do.
EYJ, sure, bunt away, but let Dex get extra bases.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 14, 2010 12:00 PM MST up reply actions
Limitations wasn't the best word
i guess “putting ideas in his head” is a better term. I think over-emphasis on improving his small ball game will affect his developement with his swing and pitch selection.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there is a man on base.
agreed 700%
Dex could be a .380 OBP/.850 OPS guy with SB speed. I hope Tracy doesn’t try to limit him.
I also hope the FO would step in at some point and say “hey knock this crap off”
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 15, 2010 10:42 AM MST up reply actions
Agreed
they should also think about locking him up like they did Tulo if he has a good year this year. That’s probably not gonna with Cargo since his manager is Bora$$
by BringItHome on Jan 15, 2010 10:56 AM MST up reply actions
Yes and being on base with Helton at the plate
you know he will see a TON of pitches to the plate which should give him plenty of chances to steel. (also get his work out in by sprinting to second when the ball is fouled off). He is such a cerebral player that the learning curve will be short when it comes to stealing bases in the majors. The cerebral aspect will be great too when considering weather or not he regresses this year. I lean towards non regression since he is such a smart athletic player.
by BringItHome on Jan 14, 2010 12:14 PM MST up reply actions
I am of the opinion that Helton's regression will be in the form of a falling SLG
his AVG/OBP will remain SOMEWHAT stable, IMO.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 14, 2010 12:18 PM MST up reply actions
I was talking about a Fowler Regression
but I agree on Helton. Ironically a falling sluggin % might help to increase hi OBP. Also the more of a threat Tulo becomes the more decent pitches Helton will see which actually might help his Slugging percentage….SO I CAN CLEARLY NOT DRINK THE WINE IN FRONT OF YOU!
by BringItHome on Jan 14, 2010 12:26 PM MST up reply actions
see what I get for skimming
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 14, 2010 12:35 PM MST up reply actions
no worries
but I need SOME credit for my Princess Bride quote.
by BringItHome on Jan 14, 2010 12:38 PM MST up reply actions
inconceivable.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 14, 2010 12:52 PM MST up reply actions

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 14, 2010 1:00 PM MST up reply actions
I don't know how much Helton's SLG will fall
I mean he only had 15 HR last year and his OBP was really close to his career average.
"Candlestick was built on the water. It should have been built under it." Roger Maris
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 14, 2010 3:59 PM MST up reply actions
15 is not that many
If it was like 20 or 25 I could see what you are saying but 15 is very doable. Plus even if he dosn’t get there he will probably be so close to 15 that his SLG will probably stay about the same unless his OBP drops off.
"Candlestick was built on the water. It should have been built under it." Roger Maris
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 14, 2010 4:16 PM MST up reply actions
I also think 15 is doable
I think he will be close to to 40 doubles again and the doubles are what drives his SLG up because he does get quite a few of those.
JFK
them reply links are tricky
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 14, 2010 8:29 PM MST up reply actions
biondino still has the best F YOUR REPLY LINKS joke ever
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 25, 2010 1:38 PM MST up reply actions
http://www.purplerow.com/2010/1/18/1257120/monday-rockpile-biding-time-until#29053443
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 25, 2010 1:40 PM MST up reply actions
I don't think it's firefox
but make sure to let the page load fully. Sometimes clicking them won’t pop up the box if one of the trillion ads is still loading.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 25, 2010 10:16 PM MST up reply actions
yeah it's possible
and I do like the fact that he will see some better pitches with Tulo hitting behind him
I know it's probably a topic for another thread but don't you kind of see Todd becoming more of a #2 hitter with his high OBP?
"Candlestick was built on the water. It should have been built under it." Roger Maris
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 14, 2010 6:06 PM MST up reply actions
I was gonna say the exact same thing
he could hit #2 but the real problem then would be finding a #3. They are hard to come by.
Well if September/October Cargo is the real Cargo.................
"Candlestick was built on the water. It should have been built under it." Roger Maris
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 14, 2010 7:10 PM MST up reply actions
We've been seeing Helton as a 2 for about 3 years now
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 14, 2010 8:30 PM MST up reply actions
I have not seen it discussed here. Was the last time it was brought up last offseason?
Did it end up being one of those “well we see him as a two hitter but we really don’t have a three or a four hitter so there’s not much we can do right now” type of discussions? Or is there another lineup you think we should have out there?
"Candlestick was built on the water. It should have been built under it." Roger Maris
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 15, 2010 12:06 AM MST up reply actions
that or "he's slow so can't bat 2nd"
I somewhat subscribe to the new lineup construction idea that your best hitters should be your 2 and 4
In order of best to worst, 2, 4, 1, 5, 3, 6, 7, 9, 8
reason it’s built like that is to optimize the number of times you have runners on base for your best hitters.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 15, 2010 9:06 AM MST up reply actions
Your best would still be your 4 though right?
"There's no clock in baseball and we proved it" Clint Hurdle after the 22 inning game.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 15, 2010 12:09 PM MST up reply actions
So what about this lineup? (Depending on whetherSmith or Hawpe is starting)
1) Dex
2) Todd
3) Cargo
4) Tulo
5) Hawpe/Stewart
6) CDI
7) Stewart/Smith
8) Barmes
"There's no clock in baseball and we proved it" Clint Hurdle after the 22 inning game.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 15, 2010 12:12 PM MST up reply actions
no. he put it in order of best to worst
2 is best. It is very different than traditional thought so its counterintuitive. “best” is a relative term and it is slippery. The batters could have different obp/slg splits so that the “best” hitter didn’t fit at 2. I would guess Ryan Howard is of this mood. That’s why baseballmusings.com’s lineup calculation site is interesting
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 15, 2010 5:07 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
I'll have to check that site out. Sounds awesome.
Just so we are clear, when you say “best” is a slippery term are you saying that because in some spots in the order OBP plays “best” and in other spot SLG or OPS plays “best”?
"There's no clock in baseball and we proved it" Clint Hurdle after the 22 inning game.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 16, 2010 2:13 AM MST up reply actions
yes, thats exactly what i meant
The top lineups the site generates are never ones you’ll actually see, but it also gives an expected run production level for a specific lineup construction. That’s what BtB cited in the article I linked in Tuesday’s rockpile. I’m sure we will use it when the season draws nearer
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 16, 2010 8:51 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
And then we'll just throw it back out because it'll put Helton in the leadoff spot every time
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 16, 2010 9:57 AM MST up reply actions
i think it had spilborghs fourthl, barmes sixth, and iannetta ninth most times
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 17, 2010 1:11 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
really
I got an awful lot of Barmes 9
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 18, 2010 10:25 AM MST up reply actions
i could be remembering wrong
Are you using 2010 projections? I was trying to draw put of my fuzzy memory the results from 09 chone.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 18, 2010 3:19 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
yeah that'll probably make the difference
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 18, 2010 3:22 PM MST up reply actions
I think it would be funny if a manager actually used this stuff to construct a lineup.
Tony LaRussa has had the pitcher bat 8th before so maybe that’s a start.
"There's no clock in baseball and we proved it" Clint Hurdle after the 22 inning game.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 16, 2010 1:09 PM MST up reply actions
It depends
if he’s a better slugger, then 4
if he’s a better on-base guy, then 2
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 15, 2010 7:05 PM MST up reply actions
So, "classic" lineup theory says that you bat your best hitter #3
Which doesn’t very widely from you saying that your best hitters should bat #2 and 4. But what about the theory that you just bat your players from best to worst in OBP? Each successive lineup spot gets about 20 fewer plate appearances than the one before it, so your best on-base guys will bat more often over the year, and you’ll tend to have more baserunners in groups during a game. I’ve always wanted to see that done a few times.
by controlled_slide on Jan 18, 2010 10:15 AM MST up reply actions
it's not a bad idea in principle
but that’d be putting your Pujols’ up top, thereby wasting his otherworldly slugging
I bat Pujols…gee, I don’t know which, 2 or 4, he excels at both.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 18, 2010 10:26 AM MST up reply actions
Well yeah
Freaks like Pujols would be an exception. I think I’d put him 3rd or 4th if I was making a lineup with him in it.
by controlled_slide on Jan 18, 2010 10:37 AM MST up reply actions
well the reason I wouldn't put him 3rd
is just that over the course of the past however long Tango used to do this, the 3rd batter came up with runners on the fewest times, or basically had like the 4th or 5th most chances to create runs, whereas, 2, 4, 1 all had more
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 18, 2010 12:13 PM MST up reply actions
check dis
http://www.brewcrewball.com/2009/2/14/759668/lineup-construction
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 18, 2010 12:37 PM MST up reply actions
pioneerskies wrote one last March with our expected lineu
I presume the starting eight are more known this season, so a headstart might be worth it
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 18, 2010 3:46 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
think of how often
The 3 hole hitter comes up in the first inning with no one on base. Its a decent number of ABs where, besides hitting a home run, the batter has a minimal potential impact on run expectancy with his AB, which would he 1/4ish of his chances in the game
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 18, 2010 3:18 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
But isn't that why you put your best hitter #3
so that he CAN get on base and extend the inning for your #4 hitter. By best hitter I mean all around best factoring in OBP etc. That’s why Helton is such an ideal #3 hitter. In the case of Pujols I see your point. You don’t want to waste the RBI by having him bat with no one on base. In the our case though we have a much better chance of providing RBI opportunities for Tulo with Helton, Fowler and Gonazlez, who all have high OBP, in front of him.
that's why we want Helton in the 2
so that someone like Tulo or Stewart who will be higher SLG guys and good-but-not-great OBP guys can power him in
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 18, 2010 4:55 PM MST up reply actions
the issue is you can't look at a single game and have it make sense
because there’s always a situation where it can go to crap
it’s saying that over the course of a season, 2 and 4 end up seeing the most run-scoring opportunities
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 18, 2010 4:56 PM MST up reply actions
I see
Hard to envision that since I’m so used to the traditional style, but it would be interesting to see it played out.
You are not the first and will not be the last to make that observation
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 18, 2010 7:32 PM MST up reply actions
which means "kudos for the good observation"
not “dammit quit repeating us”
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 18, 2010 10:22 PM MST up reply actions
Right
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 19, 2010 6:18 AM MST up reply actions
I hesitate
To use anecdotal evidence in lineup construction. You remember all of the times that the #3 hitter comes up with 2 outs and nobody on, but there’s probably just as many times (well, not just as many, considering the average MLB OBP is something like .335) that he comes up with a man or two on. And in those situations, you really want a great hitter so you can get on the board early and give your pitcher the lead.
If there really is statistical evidence that the #3 hitter sees fewer men on base than the 2 and 4 hitters, then I’d totally be on board bucking the traditional lineup construction.
by controlled_slide on Jan 18, 2010 5:11 PM MST up reply actions
That's what I'm trying to convey
Tom Tango did all the heavy statistical lifting to calculate that 2 and 4 get the most run scoring opportunities. Since that flies in the face of traditional thought, I use the above anecdote at as a supporting starting point, but that’s not what I’m basing my assertion off of. What Tango found is. If you haven’t been told to read The Book by Tom Tango, let me be the first. You seem to be one who would appreciate it
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 18, 2010 7:35 PM MST up reply actions
Yeah, I realized that
About halfway through writing my comment. But I can’t deprive the world of my prose, can I?
I haven’t actually read very many baseball books surprisingly enough. I’ve been meaning to start, and that book sounds like a good place to start. I do read a lot.
by controlled_slide on Jan 18, 2010 8:18 PM MST up reply actions
It's a lot of numbers and research
It’s as dry as a science lab report, but there are some interesting notions
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 18, 2010 8:38 PM MST up reply actions
I think that's why I wasn't too broken up when I left it on the bus
I mean, I’m a horrible person, but… yeah
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 18, 2010 10:23 PM MST up reply actions
When Tango did this analysis
did he do it based on actual data of games or did he do it through simulation where all the hitters came up in different spots? The reason I ask is because if his data was based on actual games then it only means that the #3 hitter gets fewer good chances with a traditional lineup and maybe not in a different lineup situation. If you start moving people around, doesn’t that change who gets more run scoring opportunities?
"There's no clock in baseball and we proved it" Clint Hurdle after the 22 inning game.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 19, 2010 12:26 AM MST up reply actions
yep
but it’s not like any manager is gonna change anything anytime soon
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 19, 2010 7:07 AM MST up reply actions
Uhhhh, not so sure he sets up as a no. 2.
I still think #2 needs a modicum of speed. And I just don’t see Todd filling that role. As his skills erode, I could see him moving down to #6 or #7. Just my opinion.
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~Rogers Hornsby
But probably not for a couple of years yet
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~Rogers Hornsby
We only have him for 2010 and 2011 though.
I’d be extremely happy if the Rox experimented with non-standard batting orders.
I hope that we can re-sign him after that
We certainly won’t pick up his options, but I think that both sides will be interested in making another contract. Whether they can agree on a deal is another issue, but they’ll give it a shot.
by controlled_slide on Jan 18, 2010 10:19 AM MST up reply actions
You're thinking with a bit of an old-school mentality
Just because #1 and 2 hitters have historically usually had good speed doesn’t mean that they need it. If a guy is getting on base a lot without a lot of power, you put him in front of your guys who have power so they can drive him in. Yeah it helps if he can get extra bases with his legs, but it’s not as important as being on base in the first place.
by controlled_slide on Jan 18, 2010 10:17 AM MST up reply actions
Thinking with a bit of an old-school mentality? That's because I'm
older than dirt.
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~Rogers Hornsby
I somewhat agree here
If speed was out of the equation, Helton looks like Ricky Henderson, with gap power and a phenomenal OBP. I bat him leadoff all day long.
But seeing how speed IS in the equation, I still might bat him 2nd, but I like the idea of Dex in the 2.
Based on the fact that Helton is still one of our top batters, but his age has slowed him even more than he was in his prime, it does kind of ruin the strategy in the microcosm events.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 18, 2010 10:28 AM MST up reply actions

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