Tuesday Rockpile: The old and the new of the Giants' lineup
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 12, 2010 7:13 AM MST
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PrintHopefully, no news this offseason will be good news for the Rockies. Colorado's top two NL West rivals last season are making some noise though:
San Francisco
Brian Sabean looks to have completed what he seems to think is enough of an overhaul to his pathetic offensive lineup by signing 1B Aubrey Huff. Kudos at least to Sabean for not cutting the Kung Fu Panda's value down by forcing him to move to first base, but how much does this improve their offense?
Of the eight position defensive positions, five will be manned primarily by new faces in 2010. Out are Randy Winn and Bengie Molina, while Travis Ishikawa, Fred Lewis and Emmanuel Burriss will be on the bench. The probable lineup (personnel likely locked, the order may change):
- Freddy Sanchez, 2B - 32, 9th year
- Edgar Renteria, SS - 34, 15th year
- Pablo Sandoval, 3B - 23, 2nd full season
- Aubrey Huff, 1B - 33, 11th year
- Mark DeRosa, LF - 35, 13th year
- Aaron Rowand , CF - 32, 10th year
- Nate Schierholtz, RF - 25, 4th year (1st as a starter)
- Buster Posey, C - 23, rookie
Using Baseball Musings' Lineup Analysis and CHONE projections...the lineup above would score 4.55 runs per game, a number that would have put them sixth in the NL and 17th in the majors [in 2009].
Production like that could put the Giants over the top, but don't worry just yet. There are two major assumptions in the above method. One - that all eight players would play all 162 games. Therefore, "4.55 runs/game" isn't comparing like data sets. Two - it is all based on projections.
Projections can be fairly reliable for a player who has started for a few seasons and consistently puts up similar numbers, like Brad Hawpe. However, there are two types of players that it can be difficult to nail down: one, young players without enough at-bats to develop a true MLB skill level, and two, aging veterans whose ability could completely vanish.
Look through that lineup. There's two completely unproven hitters and one who, while having a magical career so far, has yet to hit the sophomore season that even Troy Tulowitzki struggled with. The other five are at least 32 and/or in their 10th year, suggesting their best days are behind them. At least one is liable to go all Edgar Renteria on them.
Am I worried about their offense? In a word, not at all.
Los Angeles
Yahoo's Tim Brown tweeted yesterday that Dodgers are "working on a way to sign Joel Pineiro." On one hand, Pineiro has only two seasons where he was more valuable than Byung-Hyun Kim was for the Rockies in 2006. Starting pitchers always seem to be overvalued, and following a career season, he will get paid more than he's worth. He'll lose Dave Duncan. But don't forget - the Dodgers have rotation issues, and if they find a way to ink Pineiro, it makes them undeniably better. If he can show 2009 wasn't a fluke, he'll make losing Randy Wolf's production easier to stomach.
Ned Colletti signed a former Rockies' target to be Rafael Furcal's backup. Ken Rosenthal reports that LA signed Nick Green, so together with Jamey Carroll, the Dodger infield bench will have power to burn.
More links after the jump.
Rockie Bits
Royals Sign Matt Herges: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com
MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com
Francis to tune up for spring training in the Dominican | All Things Rockies (Renck)
The tune up is essentially a head start for Francis going into 2010 so he'll be primed and read when Spring Training opens. This tells me the club feels he's healthy enough that it isn't a risk to have him throw more, not less, than the rest of the rotation before the season starts.
The Rockies signed as a free agent catcher Anthony Aguilera out of San Jose St. That's a low level signing if ever there was one. SPLASH!
Mark McGwire
McGwire finally admits to steroid use - The Denver Post (Dave Sheinin, Washington Post)
Transcript: McGwire interview - San Jose Mercury News
Even baseball's confessed shame shouldn't open Hall of Fame - The Denver Post (Woody Paige)
Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa rescued baseball. But they couldnt save themselves.\
Gossage doesn't think McGwire should enter Hall of Fame - The Denver Post (Renck)
Rich "Goose" Gossage considers Mark McGwire one of his favorite teammates of all time.
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Hey PF - are there any pro-McGwire articles?
I’m firmly on the anti side myself, but I was wondering if in your trawl you found many that applauded his actions, suggested he should now get into the hall etc.
Hmm, not crazy about Atkins saying this doesn't change his view of McGwire
Unless, of course, his previous view was that he was a roid-engorged cheat.
I wouldn’t read a Woody Paige article about steroids if I had a gun to my head.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
What did you say about Big Mac..
on your radio show?
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I'm not going to read too much into that comment by Atkins
Maybe on a personal level he still likes the guy and respects him as a player. Or what you said.
Dear Rockies-Thank you for a wonderful season! Best turnaround in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-The clutchiest, most en fuego catcher the Rox ever had(IMO)!
Brad Hawpe- I wuv you THIS MUCH. Stop missing balls by that much too please:)
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
Mac was close to getting the Rockies hitting coach job in 2006
and over a couple of off seasons worked on hitting with some players including Holliday & Atkins. I think his personal relationship would color his opinion.
Pretty much everyone who’s ever played or worked with Mac thinks he an incredible person though.
I think McGwire is still a nice guy, steroids or no
So I guess that statement isn’t entirely out of line from Garrett.
"CarGo had to make some repairs to it. They called it a kitchen accident, but he was performing surgery. On teh lazor."
http://www.soundclick.com/hollidayrain
by Hollidayrain on Jan 12, 2010 8:48 AM MST up reply actions
there have been a few that applaud him for coming clean
And herald him as a nice guy. Many in fact.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 12, 2010 9:00 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
as for HoF candidacy
I know he has his supporters, though I can’t remember who it was that said they would vote for him. I believe espn has a fan vote up now on the topic, with a 65-35 split towards no
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 12, 2010 9:02 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Doing steroids means taking tremendous legal, professional, and health risks in order to benefit your team and help them win. Doing steroids is quintessence of being a team player.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 10:16 AM MST up reply actions
It can also hurt the team
with negative attention and cast suspicion on the rest of the great player on that team.
by bleedspurple on Jan 12, 2010 10:26 AM MST up reply actions
it's a side effect, because that player is putting everything they have into making sure their team wins
I don’t see how any suspicion or negative attention can outweigh a player doing whatever it takes to win.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 10:35 AM MST up reply actions
shhhh I don't think bleedspurple realizes I'm just being a troll
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 10:47 AM MST up reply actions
I guess I'm letting morality get in the way
You are right-if the only object in baseball is to win, then steroids only help to achieve this goal. However, I hope that baseball has been and will always be about more than winning. Winning in an underhanded manner or by flat out cheating negates the win; cheapens it. Though I’ve got to admit, a win (any win) in baseball=more money…
by bleedspurple on Jan 12, 2010 10:41 AM MST up reply actions
nah, morality's important, I just wanted to troll a little bit
It’s not that I condone PEDs, I just don’t care. Buck O’Neil said it best, that players have been looking for any way to get an edge since the game began.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 10:47 AM MST up reply actions
That is very true
I understand the mentality behind using steroids, and sympathize with the pressure to win (whether for yourself, your team, or the principle of winning altogether) and to level the playing field when you feel that everyone else is getting an advantage you don’t have. I just don’t like it. Which is odd, because gaining an advantage over others seems to be an ingrained part of basic human behavior.
by bleedspurple on Jan 12, 2010 11:00 AM MST up reply actions
To be more than human is to be human
I’m waiting for the scarring “bionics” scandals that rage across MLB
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:05 AM MST up reply actions
I wouldn't be outraged with bionics
I’d be downright fascinated! It would be like our own little experiment:D
by bleedspurple on Jan 12, 2010 11:10 AM MST up reply actions
BUT THEN THE GAME ISN'T PURE AND
BABE RUTHS NUMBERS ARE CRAPPED ON AND BRALSJHERLAHEIGBEWRGONWEJ
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:11 AM MST up reply actions
Haha
I see your point. I guess I wonder if there was ever a time that the game was “pure”. Like you said, we are always looking to gain an edge. I doubt that was untrue 100+ years ago.
by bleedspurple on Jan 12, 2010 11:13 AM MST up reply actions
I heard weird rumors and conjecture
of old timey guys taking like animal supplements or some gross stuff like that then too
better play = more money
horse meth = better play
horse meth = more money
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:14 AM MST up reply actions
Pud Galvin
Used the Brown-Sequard Elixir, which was essentially mashed up animal testicles.
Foxes are naughties
seriously?
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 9:46 PM MST up reply actions
that's alright
I knew I’d heard some sorts of rumors about old timey players using animal testosterone in some way shape or form, thanks for corroborating this
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:45 PM MST up reply actions
I would love to watch Honus Wagner
or Christy Mathewson.
Those guys were totally pure
ROCKEFELLER!!!
that's what you think...
some “trainer” has some of their blood samples stashed in a time capsule…you watch. :)
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
it's an old mason jar
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:16 AM MST up reply actions
lol..mason jar in a time capsule
buried under HOF in Cooperstown, I’ll tell ya!!
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
"well folks we have some really old blood here"
“Me and Bob Feller were out carousing one evening and he finally just went to the chirping birds and collapsed into the gutter. Well, knowing how much the doctors wanted to see what that man was made of, I saved a little of the bleeding from the newly-formed gash in his head into my one of my wife’s pickle jars and put it into my safe-deposit box at the bank.
“I’m sure that jar is fermented into something worse by now, it was already about 40-proof when he hit the cobble…”
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:22 AM MST up reply actions
He just so happens
to have one of his wife’s pickle jars handy. Always be prepared, right?
by bleedspurple on Jan 12, 2010 11:24 AM MST up reply actions
Stan Musial was a hell of a man
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:24 AM MST up reply actions
lol....
/applauds :)
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
Didn't Christy Mathewson have some sort of gas poisoning in WWI?
ITS WUZ STROIDZ
"CarGo had to make some repairs to it. They called it a kitchen accident, but he was performing surgery. On teh lazor."
http://www.soundclick.com/hollidayrain
by Hollidayrain on Jan 12, 2010 11:17 AM MST up reply actions
Can of worms just exploded over here
Pure to me (and this is off the top of my head without thinking philosophically for hours about this) is how the game was intended to be played as delineated by the rules combined with honor among competitors. But then, there is the issue of honor. What is honor?
by bleedspurple on Jan 12, 2010 11:22 AM MST up reply actions
what is life?
without your love?
who am I without you by my side?
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:25 AM MST up reply actions
is that what Jeff Francis is
whispering to Mr Late Night in your avatar?
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:28 AM MST up reply actions
yes I'm familiar :)
and I still want to know if that is what he is whispering in his ear :P
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
....
maybe
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:31 AM MST up reply actions
Probably something like
You better get clutchy real fast, mr. or else I’ll have to whip out my mason jar
by bleedspurple on Jan 12, 2010 11:31 AM MST up reply actions
If we are going to go down the morality path
then baseball is going to have redo ALOT of the HOF members. How many took amphetamines, cocaine, etc to gain an edge who are in the HOF?
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
I disagree...
I’m not going to point to the morality clause or purity clause here actually…
I’m going to point to Bret Boone. Clearly, he was on something when he put up 2 monster seasons with Seattle. So, Seattle inks him to a big contract, and he goes off the juice and is completely useless.
The team is hurt because they make significant financial commitments to someone based off an assumed level of performance. If that performance is not sustained (ie if the player has a change of heart and quits juicing) the team is trapped with dead money. Now, the team is faced with paying exhorbidant salaries to players that used in contract years to drive up their prospective value.
Additionally, teams within the same division feel compelled to either A) keep up with the Jones’ and make their own rash investments or B) conduct a firesale becuase they are unwilling to pay their good players the high rates secured by steriod infused sluggers/pitchers. So, now we have both teams and the league as a whole negatively impacted by steriod use.
In that sense, using steriods is the ultimate selfish player tactic, used only for the players’ gain, and detrimental to the team and league they play in.
by attackparrot on Jan 12, 2010 11:55 AM MST up reply actions
(if you read the responses, you'd know it was completely trolling)
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 12:15 PM MST up reply actions
realized the trolling bit...
just thought i’d approach from a more economic perspective rather than the morality or purity comment…
any comment that stimulates good conversation or new view points is good with me! just thought i’d add another log to the proverbial fire..
by attackparrot on Jan 12, 2010 12:41 PM MST up reply actions
I liked it.
I like where you went with that. It helps when you’re comparing apples to apples with people who actually do believe that. And they exist.
This quote is like saying that someone who robs a bank and brings the money home to his family who can just get by is the ultimate family man.
"On my tombstone just write, The sorest loser that ever lived." Earl Weaver
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 13, 2010 12:58 AM MST up reply actions
I think you're referencing..
the movie Fun with Dick and Jane?
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Never seen
Seriously
"On my tombstone just write, The sorest loser that ever lived." Earl Weaver
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 13, 2010 2:37 AM MST up reply actions
Never seen IT
"On my tombstone just write, The sorest loser that ever lived." Earl Weaver
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 13, 2010 2:37 AM MST up reply actions
It's not bad.
But then I"m a fan of Téa Leoni and Alec Baldwin.
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I thought it had its funny moments
Alec Baldwin- one of the best comic/character actors around…too bad he messed royally..
I like and dislike him at the same time..
I like Tea Leoni as well…
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
Tea Leoni
Loved her in Family Man…Her character in Spanglish almost made me scared of women
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 13, 2010 11:44 AM MST up reply actions
The robot guitar solo had been LOLing
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 13, 2010 11:43 AM MST up reply actions
As to the Jints aging veterans,
a stat I’d like to see (and I wonder if it’s been compiled … almost everything else seems to have been) is average age of a team’s lineup compared to games lost in a season due to injuries. My guess is that when a lineup averages over about 30 (Giants’ avg. is 29.5, including the untested Schierholz at 25 & Posey at 23), the games lost due to injury gets significant. If it’s a team like the Yanks or Red Sox that can go out & buy replacement players for injured vets, no big deal. For “normal” teams, it is a big deal.
Even the deep pocket Mets & Cubs couldn’t survive a host of injuries to old veterans last year. Basic point: it’s not just regression due to age that affects lineups like the Giants are planning, it’s also injury risk.
New decade, new result: time for a Rockies' division championship.
It's a very good question - I'd like to see such a stat too
Though it does beg glib answers such as “so you think if we dropped the Toddfather, we’d be a better team”?
Oh no you din'nt!!
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
I'm starting a new rumour
Biondino hates Todd Helton. I even spelled rumour the British way so we would know that it’s really about Biondino.
by controlled_slide on Jan 12, 2010 11:14 AM MST up reply actions
"This just in"
“Biondino hates america”
wait that might be true
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:15 AM MST up reply actions
Ouch!
I LOVE America. I hate some American things, mostly intangible things, but it holds a sway over me like nowhere else. I long to go back.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:31 AM MST up reply actions
that cracked me up
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
I thought a parrot
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
yeah that's a parrot
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:37 AM MST up reply actions
hmm...maybe i need to get a picture of a parrot in attack position for my profile...
by attackparrot on Jan 12, 2010 11:58 AM MST up reply actions
just show some lazors coming out of his eyes:)
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
lol...yes...:)
i’m a 6 to 7 hour sleeper, sometimes its increments but yes :)
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
Regarding McGwire
You know, I’m really struggling with whether or not he should be in the HOF.
More than likely a much larger number of players did the same thing as McGwire and Bonds(et al). And MLB and I think fans to a point, chose to play ostrich about the whole matter. It seems a little unfair to punish these players, considering baseball didn’t see fit too as well. And I don’t know if the asterisk plan really works either.
It confuses and saddens me that we as fans from the steroid era are going to be faced with these conundrums every season. I don’t know what to think…
just sayin’
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
think of it this way
He said he was thinking of retiring around 95. Instead, he extended his career with steroids and and ended with about 590 home runs, 70 in in 1998 alone. Would he have had HoF caliber numbers without the help of steroids? I have a hard time thinking so.
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 12, 2010 8:46 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
not to mention his .263 BA and only 1626 career hits. Yes, 36% of his hits were HRs
All the guy did was hit dingers, and he did that because of juice.
Steroid Era Fraud.
ROCKEFELLER!!!
I didn't want to get into this today
But he had 1317 walks and a .394 OBP. He did a little more than just hit home runs.
by controlled_slide on Jan 12, 2010 10:49 AM MST up reply actions
I'm not saying he wasn't a good player
but I think his numbers are inflated, especially the walks. If a guy is hitting a HR every 10 PA, you don’t throw him a pitch to hit. It’s that simple.
ROCKEFELLER!!!
He still walked a ton early in his career
Not as much as the roidy years, but still a good amount. Yes, I believe that his numbers were massively inflated by steroids. No I don’t think he belongs in the Hall. But saying that all he did was hit homers is a tad misleading. He also got on base a lot – partially because he was such a feared hitter, partially because he was also a good, patient hitter.
by controlled_slide on Jan 12, 2010 10:55 AM MST up reply actions
how many rookies do you know that hit 49 HRs?
Look at his career numbers and tell me where there isn’t a possible “roid year”
ROCKEFELLER!!!
I made a guy in OOTP who did
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:05 AM MST up reply actions
precisely my point
the “recovering from injury” excuse is exactly that. ALL of his numbers are inflated, the guy was a good hitter, but nowhere near the lines he put up
ROCKEFELLER!!!
On this point, is it at all possible
that he was clean at this point, but already knew how to hit in ways that opposing pitchers couldn’t figure out yet?
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
49 HR at age 23 with very little big league experience?
He must have been some kinda prodigy
ROCKEFELLER!!!
at least a progeny
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:10 AM MST up reply actions
Here's the point
It doesn’t matter when he was on steroids. Compare his on-base numbers with a contemporary who was also probably on steroids: Sammy Sosa. Even in the ’98 season, McGwire had 162 walks, while Sosa had 73. They were equally “feared”, yet McGwire had far more walks.
by controlled_slide on Jan 12, 2010 11:10 AM MST up reply actions
nerds dig the free pass
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:12 AM MST up reply actions
I am not saying McGwire wasn't a good-togreat hitter
He showed excellent patience at the plate, and when he saw a pitch he liked, he drilled it.
You can’t compare him to Sammy “Flash in a Pan” Sosa, you just can’t. They were two completely different hitters, McGwire was much better. But even those walk totals are inflated
ROCKEFELLER!!!
agreed on the inflation
and like quadruple agreed on the Sosa Flash in the Pan
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:15 AM MST up reply actions
I never disagreed on that
Just on your earlier “All the guy did was hit dingers” line.
by controlled_slide on Jan 12, 2010 11:18 AM MST up reply actions
I will correct that statement
Pretty much all the guy did was hit dingers
Would have been a very good hitter without the juice. But I seriously doubt there was ever a time he played professional ball without it.
ROCKEFELLER!!!
And the Sosa analogy was purposeful
In that you can’t compare them. They hit comparable numbers of home runs, but McGwire was clearly the better hitter, and roids alone can’t explain his exemplary on-base skills.
by controlled_slide on Jan 12, 2010 11:21 AM MST up reply actions
Hooray
Now we can stop talking about McGwire?
by controlled_slide on Jan 12, 2010 11:22 AM MST up reply actions
Agree!
/turns on ESPN
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:24 AM MST up reply actions
I'm perfectly happy to spend a day on this
As it’s big news and an interesting subject. But it gets played out so fast and then everyone reverts to the same old tired high horses and it’s awful.
Unfortunately ESPN has no concept of the term “played out”
by controlled_slide on Jan 12, 2010 11:25 AM MST up reply actions
my horse doesn't care
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:27 AM MST up reply actions
what if my horse isn't high?
we’ll he be allowed in the HHOF?
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
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Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
See this is the problem with PED's and the HOF though
There seems to be three diferent viewpoints. There is one group who will say “Well everyone was doing it so we really can’t judge”, there’s another group that will try to look at the numbers and see if they were they a HOF player before they took PED’s, and then there is yet another group who thinks that anyone who took PED’s should be out of HOF consideration. Before each person can go into a detailed arguement they must decide which group they belong to and if they can even have a worthwhile argument with someone from another group.
"On my tombstone just write, The sorest loser that ever lived." Earl Weaver
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 13, 2010 1:14 AM MST up reply actions
“anyone who took PED’s should be out of HOF consideration”
This is me. The users won fame and fortune by cheating, they don’t need the HOF.
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how about everyone from the 70s doing amphetamines
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 13, 2010 11:43 AM MST up reply actions
Did greenies cause someone..
to hit 70 HR’s? What kind of records were broken due to greenies?
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 14, 2010 7:03 AM MST up reply actions
I think he took Schizophrenia medication..
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Agreed
There was NO way he could have continued playing unless he didn’t have the ability to rehab so quickly. I’m guessing that was the biggest reason why they were so popular (based on what Andy Pettitte and Brian Roberts said).
"CarGo had to make some repairs to it. They called it a kitchen accident, but he was performing surgery. On teh lazor."
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by Hollidayrain on Jan 12, 2010 8:51 AM MST up reply actions
Only 2% of players make it to Cooperstown
I am perfectly happy with that 2% being made up of (as far as we can ever tell) non-juicers. I think it’s pretty easy to argue that a juicer may not have ended up in the 99th percentile if they hadn’t taken drugs.
In any case, and my opinion, juicing means you’re automatically disqualified on the “character and integrity” part of the deal.
but what about Barry Bonds?
he was an automatic HOF before he started juicing. Do the last few seasons of his career completely erase an already stellar pre-drug career?
ROCKEFELLER!!!
I think so.
Bonds was such a high profile player that the negative impact he had on the game by juicing outweighs his accomplishments prior to the PEDs, at least in my opinion. And with McGwire, while he wasn’t the only one doing steroids, he was one of the most prominent players to do so, and I think his success probably pushed a lot of other players to do it as well. People always talk about how even the marginal players had to use in order to keep up, but I think McGwire probably did more to promote steroid use than anyone else.
I disagree based on the notion
that there were like 2 players in baseball that could even FATHOM “keeping up” with Barry Bonds, and that’s ARod and Pujols.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 10:25 AM MST up reply actions
YES.
3 out of 4 sounds so much better than 2 out of 3...
by realmenwearpurple on Jan 12, 2010 9:15 AM MST up reply actions
I should add to that a bit...
He still was a great player, but when did he start juicing? He may have been on them or other PEDs for years before, then got really serious about them when he put on 60 lbs, his head grew three sizes, and he lost several “sizes” in… but I digress. My second and main point is he was part of a group that gave baseball a black eye that it still hasn’t recovered from, and I don’t think a player like that belongs in the Hall of Fame. Good numbers get you there, but his contributions to the game are almost all seen in a negative light now. It is not the Hall of Infamy.
3 out of 4 sounds so much better than 2 out of 3...
by realmenwearpurple on Jan 12, 2010 9:25 AM MST up reply actions
And now I see others made similar points while I typed this up.
I agree with RoxnSox09’s post below.
3 out of 4 sounds so much better than 2 out of 3...
by realmenwearpurple on Jan 12, 2010 9:28 AM MST up reply actions
Here is where we split on the topic
The Hall of Fame is a museum to memorialize the players AND history of the game. It serves both purposes. If we decide to eliminate any deserving candidates from the Steroid Age, there will be a 15 year gap in the history of the game.
Baseball really needs to have a separate display/section about this age of baseball because, like it or not, it’s a major part of the game’s history. Segregation was a serious black eye on the game as well, but we don’t forget about it. If we didn’t remember segregation in baseball, we would have no reason to remember Jackie Robinson. I feel the Steroid Era deserves remembering for the exact same reason.
ROCKEFELLER!!!
I've never been to the hall
So, my question is, do they have a display for the the Black Sox scandal, or the strike?
I have never been, either
and I can’t find a legitimate source confirming this. But directly from the Hall’s Mission Statement:
The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum is an independent, non-profit educational institution dedicated to fostering an appreciation of the historical development of baseball and its impact on our culture by collecting, preserving, exhibiting and interpreting its collections for a global audience as well as honoring those who have made outstanding contributions to our national pastime. (emphasis added)
ROCKEFELLER!!!
Well
I have issues with some of the wording. “Development, and outstanding contributions.” I don’t think it counts when you actually harm the sport.
there are two separate goals listed there
one is to preserve the cultural and historical significance of baseball, the other is to honor those whose contributions made the sport great.
It seems everyone is forgetting the first part of the mission statement here. The HOF is not there just as a bunch of busts in a room, it’s the national center for preserving the history of the sport.
ROCKEFELLER!!!
seems like a good argument save one thing
Mcgwire bonds and sosa can he mentioned and the steroid era chronicled in the HoF without them actually being inducted as players. Eric young is featured in the HoF for stealing sex bases in a game, but he wonlt sniff induction. Do the same with roiders. There will be enough players not associated with steroids during the era to get in – there won’t be a 15 year gap
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 12, 2010 11:38 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
good ol' sex bases
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:39 AM MST up reply actions
1st, 2nd 3rd and Home..
what’s the issue here ? :P
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
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Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
I am not saying include all these guys as HOF players
I am saying don’t discount the entire era and sweep it under the rug because you are ashamed of it. It’s now part of your history, acknowledge it, put it out there for people to learn from, and move on.
ROCKEFELLER!!!
There are ways to aknowledge it without
rewarding the offenders though
"On my tombstone just write, The sorest loser that ever lived." Earl Weaver
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 13, 2010 1:35 AM MST up reply actions
I giggled at the typo.
But to your point, I completely agree. I have no problem with the Hall having a section chronicling the steroid issue and having guys like Bonds and McGwire be featured there. In fact, I would say there SHOULD be such a section. But that’s a totally different matter than having those guys being inducted on their own “merits.”
The way you cover the first part is by making sure you
say for the people in the Hall who did not take steroids in this era that they put up these numbers against other players who were taking steroids. That lets people know what was happening and makes their accomplishments even more impressive
"On my tombstone just write, The sorest loser that ever lived." Earl Weaver
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 13, 2010 1:32 AM MST up reply actions
how did Barry Bonds or Mark McGwire hurt baseball?
Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa and KGJ (to a lesser extent) saved baseball. Bonds was just overkill.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 10:28 AM MST up reply actions
Because
Now, every player during that era will be looked at with a suspicions eye. There is not a single player during that era that we can say, for certain, was not a cheater. They may have simply used less, or were better at not being caught.
Also, I have a huge problem with this. It implies that these men are bigger than the game itself. That is so false. It also brings down players who are clean. You are implyign that players such as Mauer, Pujols, Tulo can not exist. They can not help baseball without being juicers.
in 1998, there were only 2 players, maybe 3 who mattered.
Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Ken Griffey, Jr. Baseball just came off of a strike, fan interest was terrible, and in 1998, everybody was watching Major League Baseball to see who would win the race.
Baseball would be nowhere near as strong as it is today without those guys.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 10:37 AM MST up reply actions
Maybe it wouldn't have been as strong, true
But to insist that they “saved” baseball. Baseball would have survived, easily.
And you can’t deny the damage they did to the credibility of every player during the period.
survived is not the same as flourished
Where’s all the hatred for players in the 70s and 80s who were so loaded up on amphetamines they played like hummingbirds?
McGwire and Sosa made baseball something exciting to watch again.
Should we have just let Joey Cora and Vince Coleman see how many perfectly executed Hit-and-Runs they could tally by season’s end? Everybody loves small ball!
Sometimes unpopular decisions need to be made for a long-term benefit.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 10:54 AM MST up reply actions
long-term benefit.
obscenely huge profits for the owners? At the expense of the players and fans?
Wouldn’t be too shocked if the roids were eventually linked back to the owners at the time.
oh I guarantee they were linked back to the owners
and even more so Bud Selig.
Chicks dig the long ball, it’s a fact. Just ask Heather Locklear – who is still hot btw – she knows what’s up.
I’d hate to see baseball somehow become a niche sport like Hockey where the diehards are the only people still regularly supporting the league (and don’t get me wrong, I love hockey, but the fanbase isn’t welcoming), and part of me wonders if baseball would’ve been a bigger version of that niche.
Funny how all them 200M contracts were dished out in like 2000, AFTER the whole McGwire thing.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:08 AM MST up reply actions
I tend to agree with this opinion
re baseball….
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
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Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
Heather Locklear
PES’* or not?
*Performance Enhancing Surgeries
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
hey when I get to be her age...
I hope I’m looking as good…..:)
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
well, how are you looking now
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:27 AM MST up reply actions
yes...that...
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:29 AM MST up reply actions
Do you think that maybe
We share a little too much for an internet forum?
by controlled_slide on Jan 12, 2010 11:29 AM MST up reply actions
it was a harmless dream!
lost somewhere in the sunday rockpile. We were all sitting, impatiently waiting until RMN finished his “carazy antics”
ROCKEFELLER!!!
/puts away arc welder
WHAAAAT?!
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:31 AM MST up reply actions
good, pretty good :)
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
prove it.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:28 AM MST up reply actions
yes, and you can
see how well peer pressure has worked on me…
*great sig line war of ’10
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
awww come on
play along, holly and maria and controlled_slide did
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:33 AM MST up reply actions
Waitaminute
Did you lump me in with 2 other girls because I had a girl in my picture. Dude, that’s my wife! I’m not a girl!
Jerk.
by controlled_slide on Jan 12, 2010 11:35 AM MST up reply actions
I know
but bio started the thread, so it’s not like he played along, muzia and I are attention whores, so it’s not like we played along
I guess I just didn’t take you as someone who WOULD share, so you doing so was impressive
GOSH
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:36 AM MST up reply actions
like you don't agree
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:38 AM MST up reply actions
I bet we can respond to each other
about 20 more times discussing this.
Yeah, okay. Fine. Whatever, I admit it.
I’m no RMN, but I am somewhat of an attention whore.
ROCKEFELLER!!!
Says the guy who posted a link to his movie
And still has the quote from that movie as his sig, even though he said it would only be there for a week.
by controlled_slide on Jan 12, 2010 11:43 AM MST up reply actions
oh ho!
throwing down the gauntlets, are we?
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:45 AM MST up reply actions
yours probably WOULD be more entertaining than mine...
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:48 AM MST up reply actions
but we're all the better for reading yours
mine would merely be a series of random phrases and quotations…
(I have become what I hate! WHY?)
Attention Whore.
diggin the sig
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 12:14 PM MST up reply actions
and was
promptly creeped out by you ;)
A hot dog at the ballgame beats roast beef at the Ritz. ~Humphrey Bogart
awww you totally set me up
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 12:43 PM MST up reply actions
ok ok ok
i asked for it with the hot dog picture…I really should find some in focus pictures of me not shoving foot long hot dogs in my mouth.
A hot dog at the ballgame beats roast beef at the Ritz. ~Humphrey Bogart
OMG CRIPPY
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:31 AM MST up reply actions
yeah I know
just sharing the creepy
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:33 AM MST up reply actions
okay boyz...its CREE. P.
man….
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:36 AM MST up reply actions
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:40 AM MST up reply actions
you should change the hat
to a Rockies cap :)
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
whatever
dudes dig the
uh
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:24 AM MST up reply actions
I'm going
to have to agree with you on this one. I can’t remember baseball being on the front page of major newspapers before that, or since that year (outside of the respective states where the WS champion is from).
A hot dog at the ballgame beats roast beef at the Ritz. ~Humphrey Bogart
Baseball would have thrived given time with or without steroids
Baseball has thrived after surviving two World Wars, the Great Depression, the trasition from a radio sport to a TV sport, the popularity of the NFL, segragation, sexism, expansion to west coast, a team throwing the World Series,collusion, a complete change to the playoff format, and an earlier play stoppage from the 1981 season. It is now thriving after the steroid mess as well and there is no way you are going to convince me that it would have not thrived again given the chance to do so without steroids.
This country is obsessed with baseball. There is no way people would have been able to stay away.
"On my tombstone just write, The sorest loser that ever lived." Earl Weaver
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 13, 2010 2:02 AM MST up reply actions
I give credit to Ripken too
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there is a man on base.
true...
can you imagine the fallout if he admitted to PED use?
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
Unfathomable
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there is a man on base.
RMN, yes.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 13, 2010 6:55 AM MST up reply actions
They hurt baseball because they damaged some of the connections between generations of fans
Roger Marris’s 61 HR’s should have meant the same thing to our generation as 60 HR’s did our grandfather’s generation. It should have been just one more fun thing to watch each summer. “Can someone challenge that 61 HR mark in a season?”
Hank Aaron’s mark of 755 should also have meant the same thing to our generation that 714 did to generations past. The point is that these douchebags destroyed records that connected generations and in tern made baseball better. That to me is one of the biggest reasons why people care so much about PED’s in MLB and not the NFL. Records in the NFL don’t connect generations the way they do in MLB.
"On my tombstone just write, The sorest loser that ever lived." Earl Weaver
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 13, 2010 1:46 AM MST up reply actions
Amen to that..
Steroid use damaged the game in the opposite way the color barrier did.
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Steroids ruined things for people who don't think
that baseball players are human, that they’re all Johnny Law Abiding Citizen and perfect humble people who WOULDN’T leap at any way to get ahead.
Steroids ruined the game for purists.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 13, 2010 11:44 AM MST up reply actions
People don't understand
how hard it is to say no to an oppurtunity that comes to your feet, basically garunteeing you tens of millions of dollars and will make you succeed in your career better then you could have ever done by yourself. and if that choice isn’t hard enough for you, consider that if you don’t take the offer it may cost you tens of millions of dollars and you may not be able to keep up with the competition for your job.
As humans, baseball players can be just as vunerable as the rest of us.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there is a man on base.
exactly
which is why I have a lot of trouble vilifying many of these players. I hardly condone, don’t get me wrong, but a lot of them may not have marketable skills once MLB is done with them (or at least not many), so I really have trouble with people trying to get ahead.
I realize that Big Mac and Bonds et al are in a different category here, but a lot of these guys are such fierce competitors that it probably just overtook them.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 13, 2010 11:57 AM MST up reply actions
I think you can argue, in a narrow sense, that steroids NEEDN'T ruin baseball
But when the HOF is judged on individual merit, and some players cheated to get an advantage over others, then PED use can only be viewed as a negative.
the HOF's "standards" are so retarded anyway
I don’t see why they should suddenly make this an arbitrary cutoff.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 13, 2010 1:31 PM MST up reply actions
The same thing could be said about WorldCom..
WorldCom CEO: “Well Enron was doing it, so we thought we had to try and keep up.”
70yr old retiree: “You lost my retirement savings because your company had to lie to stay in business?”
CEO: “Well we threw some great parties on the boats. Those were some big boats!”
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This is why those who put up the numbers and
didn’t take steroids should be rewarded by going into the Hall of Fame without the steroid users.
"Candlestick was built on the water. It should have been built under it." Roger Maris
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 13, 2010 8:04 PM MST up reply actions
I think I agree with you on this take Muzia....
I don’t think we should call it the Steroid Hall :)
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
There will still be great players from this era if you don't let the steroid guys in
You would still have guys like Pedro, Jeter, Griffy Jr., Mariano Rivera, Ichiro, Randy Johnson, Chipper Jones and of course Todd Helton to name a few. Quite frankly I’d be really pissed off if I were one of those players and had to go into the HOF with a group of steroid guys.
"On my tombstone just write, The sorest loser that ever lived." Earl Weaver
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 13, 2010 1:28 AM MST up reply actions
erase? no. tarnish? sure
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 12, 2010 9:15 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Bonds and ARod
are both HOF good even without take PED’s and should be considered for the Hall.
IMO – It is MLB’s fault for not nipping this problem in the bud before it got out of hand. But of course, after the strike in ‘94, MLB was hurting severly for fans competing with other major sports and the homerun chase in ’98 brought the fans back. MLB should shoulder a lot of this problem as it was part of the baseball culture. The McGwire’s and Bond’s will probably be the poster children for the PED era and will be made an example by the BBWAA and not be voted to the HOF. ARod on the other hand will probably make it…probably just for the fact that he is a Yankee and now has a ring.
Thanks for a great season of Baseball!
I'll be back next year for another ride.
Disagree
Here is where I think it gets real interesting. If Bonds is not let in, then the precedent has been set and it becomes very hard for any other PED users to get in. If Bonds is shut out, there will be a feeling that you have to keep all the PED users out of the Hall because Bonds is in by the numbers with or without PEDs
"On my tombstone just write, The sorest loser that ever lived." Earl Weaver
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 13, 2010 2:41 AM MST up reply actions
Soytenly!
Career 1
1986-1996 5 OPS titles, 3 MVPs, 380 SB, 334 HR
Career 2
1997-2007 4OPS titles, 4 MVPs, 134 SB, 432 HR
I have to thank our own Cody_Ransom for doing the legwork I just plagiarized.
My son and I drove 800 miles last summer to catch the first games I’d seen in SF since 1971.
Did we pick good games? In A* word, yes.
The dates? 8/30 and 31.
OK, I go now.
But I’m taking some of that panda porn with me, if you don’t mind…we have someone who might appreciate it!
"I don’t know why people feel the need to come up with reasons 'why' for everything..." - Missing Barry
by victor frankenstein on Jan 13, 2010 11:44 AM MST up reply actions
very interesting, thanks for sharing that
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 13, 2010 11:48 AM MST up reply actions
Bonds career peaked in 1996..
he would have been out of baseball by 2001 at the rate his career was spiralling. Instead he adds 500 points to his OPS. If you take away his HR’s from 2001 on he finishes with 494 HR’s, just below the HOF barrier.
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Just like Jim Rice and Andre Dawson
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 14, 2010 7:07 AM MST up reply actions
IAWTC
"On my tombstone just write, The sorest loser that ever lived." Earl Weaver
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 13, 2010 1:18 AM MST up reply actions
To me, it's not so much the steriods
as it is the way he handled it. What he said to the jury, and his subsequent disappearance just screams weakness. When I was growing up, he was an idol for strength, both in baseball and in character. But what he did in 2005 was so incredibly weak and feeble, running from the issue and hiding for 5 years, is beyond excusable.
If he had come out, faced the issue head on, and solved the problems that baseball had (which he could have himself), than he would be much closer than he is today.
I wouldn’t hesitate to call McGuire the most pathetic baseball player ever, just for that reason.
ouch. Most pathetic?
Considering that McGwire didn’t outright lie as far as I’ve heard, he didn’t admit it but he didn’t lie. Would he have been less weak if he had just lied? What about Clemens? what about Arod and his bald face lie on 60 minutes?
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
Yes, they made very poor choices
But at least they did something. Better than tucking your tail between your * and running. And I have a low tolerance for cowards like him.
what exactly has Clemens done other than claim that none of it is true?
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 10:31 AM MST up reply actions
I don't disagree with you on McGwire, but I take minor exception to the villification
He is neither hot nor cold, he is lukewarm. Nobody likes a fence sitter.
I wish he’d just said “yeah, I did. I was trying to be bigger than the game. I’m sorry. Forgive me?”
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 10:44 AM MST up reply actions
Well,
My hate for him is partially because I did look up to him when I was younger. I wouldn’t go as far to say he was my hero, but I did respect him a ton.
I did too.
Turns out people are human, who knew?
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 10:55 AM MST up reply actions
hm. a paradox.
let me make a spreadsheet
ok you’re in the clear
I guess I prefer baseball’s problems to basketball’s or football’s, so my perspective is a bit skewed.
“oh noes our hallowed numbers are in question”
“in other news today, 3 random NFL players were either caught with large amounts of controlled substances or shot today”
“NBA player waves gun at teammate, more after the film”
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:09 AM MST up reply actions
he's pointed the finger at everyone else
and when pettite admitted taking roids from the guy who supposedly gave them to clemens at around the same time period all he did was close his eyes, cover his ears and go la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there is a man on base.
so...he denied it was true...
I don’t recall clemens ratting people out, but I may be wrong on that
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 10:55 AM MST up reply actions
Sorry I meant to point out I was talking about Clemens
Clemens didn’t rat people out as much as he tried to power-trip them by saying accusations of his steroid use are simply people (McNamee) trying to make a buck off his good name.
I don’t believe Clemens for a second because A) he will always be too proud to admit his mistakes until he gets himself in to the situation Pete Rose is in, publicly begging for forgiveness not just for screwing up but for lying about it for so long. and B) He thinks he’s bigger then the game. HE was the one who set up the congressional hearing essentially, it was per his request, he just wanted the biggest media gathering he could so he could try to change as many minds as possible. He’s no longer ‘The Rocket’, one of the only comparisons we’ll ever get to see to Nolan Ryan to the pitcher who the media whore will jump through any hoops that don’t leave a syringe trail to get public opinion in his side.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there is a man on base.
I agree
he should’ve just come clean with pettitte
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:10 AM MST up reply actions
That Giants lineup looks better on paper
But if Buster Posey disappoints at the start of the season, Schierholtz doesn’t overachieve, DeRosa’s ugly second half continues into 2010, Renteria continues to play like an old man, Huff proves once and for all that he is a hasbeen, Sanchez continues to never get on base, and Panda doesn’t continue to destroy the league (all of which are completely possible, and probable in all likelihood), we’re not gonna have to worry too much.
The real question is, who will have a better offense, the Padres or Giants? Chew on that for a bit….
"CarGo had to make some repairs to it. They called it a kitchen accident, but he was performing surgery. On teh lazor."
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The offense went from bad to average
If their pitching is around the 2009 level (and I see no reason to predict that it would drop considerably) then I think there’s reason for concern but not panic. They were competitive for much of the season so even a moderate upgrade to the offense could have a decent effect. As has been mentioned though, they’re at great risk for injury and a couple DL stints could pull them back down.
Yeah
They don’t need to score many runs to win, that’s for sure. If Bumgarner pitches well, that rotation will be absolutely lights out.
"CarGo had to make some repairs to it. They called it a kitchen accident, but he was performing surgery. On teh lazor."
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by Hollidayrain on Jan 12, 2010 8:52 AM MST up reply actions
Yeah but don't forget
that the Giants actually overperformed their pythag win percentage last year. So these improvements, minus the luck, could simply get them back to the same place they were last year, in the high 80s for wins.
Not by much and I don't think you could say their offense overperformed.
I think they have a very good chance to be a bit better than 2009. However, since they’re not that deep, a setback or two could drop them quick.
i still wouldnt call that offense average
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 12, 2010 8:58 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Well, it should be far closer to average than 2009
and I’m convinced that even a small increase in run production will make a big difference for their team.
I'd actually be kind of surprised to see their pitching maintain what it did last year.
I understand that Timmah is special, but expecting Cy Young performance every year is asking to get let down. They lost a pretty decent second half Brad Penny. Cain benefited from an 81% (high) LOB%, and a difference in ERA/FIP of 2.89/3.89. They still also don’t have much in the way of a 5th starter, and MadBum is a major question mark still.
Hating Cubs fans since 1908
this exactly.
It’s going to take a pretty large break in their favor just to keep that staff as effective as it was in 2009.
Do you mean the PR staff?
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I think you are being really generous calling that an average offense
Agree it’s a little better though
"On my tombstone just write, The sorest loser that ever lived." Earl Weaver
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 13, 2010 2:06 AM MST up reply actions
no chewing necessary
Don’t forget to adjust for petco park. The padres had a 96 team ops+, pretty close to the NL average. Second base was the only position that was less than 96 in ops+
I still buy san Diego having a better offense. As for the giants, better is a relative term
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 12, 2010 8:55 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
if you go position by position
I would take our starting line up over theirs with only a couple of exceptions, probably take Panda over Stewart even thought Stewart is a better defensive player and Sanchez over Barmes. Other than that our offense should quite easily out perform theirs. Also they seem to have very little speed in their lineup.
They still come out on top when it comes to starting pitching though and that’s what puts them in contention for the West.
by BringItHome on Jan 12, 2010 10:24 AM MST up reply actions
remember, we had the most valuable pitching staff in the Majors last year, according to WAR...
there is a substantial difference between the perceived pitching gap and the actual pitching “gap”
ROCKEFELLER!!!
Very True
but I worry about how well that staff will show up this year. JDLR could regress and who knows what we’ll get out of Francis, Hammel and Cook. It seem like the Giants know exactly what they can expect from their top 3 and possibly Sanchez too. Their only real wild card is the new kid (if they go with him).
by BringItHome on Jan 12, 2010 10:30 AM MST up reply actions
and Cain being lucky for the majority of the season
and the loss of Penny/Johnson/ :(owski
and Bumgardner potentially starting even after a year of zero improvement (and possibly regression) in the Minors
They have quite a few wildcards in their rotation as well. It’s why they play the game, and why we are here talking about it in January
ROCKEFELLER!!!
Brettison BumGardner?
Awesome pitching prospect who can also steal bases and play elite CF defense?
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 10:46 AM MST up reply actions
we know what to expect from Cain
and probably Zito.
Past that, I don’t think we can fairly say “WELL TIMMEH IS GONNA GO FOR CY3” even though he very well may, and Sanchez has had a career of rampant inconsistency thus far.
Their rotation is as much of a question mark as anyone’s.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 10:34 AM MST up reply actions
Alright listen
You’re right and I’m pretty much wrong. I just got so tired of being dominated by those guys last year. I’m just hoping our offense can figure them out this time around.
by BringItHome on Jan 12, 2010 10:39 AM MST up reply actions
that was really frustrating
we were obviously more balanced, and yet we ended up blowing so many big games.
Let’s crush the gints
ROCKEFELLER!!!
huh?
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 10:45 AM MST up reply actions
if Sanchez is a sure thing, jdlr is an absolute lock to succeed
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 12, 2010 10:42 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
I'd give you that
but I said possibly Sanchez. I do would take JDLR over Sanchez for sure.
by BringItHome on Jan 12, 2010 10:45 AM MST up reply actions
I don't agree with Cain being lucky
Cain’s an ace that’s been in the making for the past 3-4 years. problem is i think lincecum slowed down his progress some because while Cain was supposed to be taking his bumps and bruises on poor Giants clubs and become the losing streak stopper, Lincecum shot thru the minors and never missed a beat once he got to the bigs, basically putting a ceiling on Cain in terms of just how important he can be to the team (because he’ll never be as valuable as Lincecum) and after taking some big steps in the right direction last year I think he’s going to continue to be a great pitcher, just hopefully not against the Rockies this year and not in the NL West with in a few years.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there is a man on base.
Matt Cain cracks me up
he’s had the same FIP his entire career, and he’s essentially been the same pitcher his entire career. He’s a good pitcher, but at this point, he’s more or less a known quantity. 200IP, mid-to-upper 3’s ERA, 3.90 FIP. Last year was pretty solid, good for him. He also had a career-low BABIP and a career-high LOB%, or in other words, he caught some breaks.
Good pitcher, yeah. Consistent pitcher, more than likely. Ace? ehhhhh
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:04 AM MST up reply actions
okay controlled slide
you’ve hit 2 dingers today. Are you roiding?
or did you sign up for Southwest Airlines notices?
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
Agree
I consider him a really solid #2 starter
"On my tombstone just write, The sorest loser that ever lived." Earl Weaver
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 13, 2010 2:10 AM MST up reply actions
He's the type of problem you want to have
Solid number 2 for not just your team, but a majority of teams in the league but not quite as good or have near the stuff as your best pitcher.
Cookie anyone?
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there is a man on base.
How would Charlie Brown's team stack up against the Giants?
For fifty years, Charlie Brown took the field with his makeshift ballclub – the piano playing Schroeder behind the plate, the apathetic Lucy in centerfield, the blanket-toting Linus at second, and Snoopy, the slobbery superstar, at shortstop – and took beating after beating.
"The Rockies signed as a free agent catcher Anthony Aguilera out of San Jose St. That's a low level signing if ever there was one. SPLASH!"
Ryan Speier, anyone? :p
Anyway, the Rockies medical camp starts tomorrow and lasts for ten days. We’re likely to get some first hand updates on the conditions of Francis and Buchholz.
any word on when they think Bucholz will be ready at this point?
by BringItHome on Jan 12, 2010 10:55 AM MST up reply actions
midseason
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 10:56 AM MST up reply actions
The word is still sometime between late May (overly optimistic) and late July (overly pessimistic)
Most put it somewhere between mid-June and the ASB. Hopefully we’ll get a newer estimate soon.
by Greg Stanwood on Jan 12, 2010 10:57 AM MST up reply actions
Other Rockies in attendance will include Greg Smith and Eric Young Jr.
Also, apparently Matt Belisle is going, despite not being injured. Just some extra practice?
by Greg Stanwood on Jan 12, 2010 10:58 AM MST up reply actions
heh
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
Good luck to both of them
especially Francis. His health is gonna be REALLY important going into ST
"CarGo had to make some repairs to it. They called it a kitchen accident, but he was performing surgery. On teh lazor."
http://www.soundclick.com/hollidayrain
by Hollidayrain on Jan 12, 2010 11:08 AM MST up reply actions
Any thoughts on Maddux as Cubs special assistant?
He was born to manage a team so I hope this is his first step towards that.
the Cubs?
Really?
But but the Braves and the Triumvirate and and
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 11:16 AM MST up reply actions
Braves are going to be screwed soon
They’re going to lost Bobby soon and I bet Chipper will be out the door with him. That team is going to have some MAJOR roster turnover in the upcoming years.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there is a man on base.
and John Kruk will still insist they will be Wild Card :)
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
John Kruk
Didn’t find out until last year that the country extends West past Chicago. He has become a bigger media whore then RMN
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there is a man on base.
Awwww
You can’t lump RMN in with Kruk. RMN’s a lovable little fuzzball.
by controlled_slide on Jan 12, 2010 12:37 PM MST up reply actions
a
creepy little fuzzball…still like him better than Kruk though…that guy is a douche.
A hot dog at the ballgame beats roast beef at the Ritz. ~Humphrey Bogart
hey!
be nice
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 12:44 PM MST up reply actions
hey
I did say I liked you better than I liked Kruk….that is nice .
A hot dog at the ballgame beats roast beef at the Ritz. ~Humphrey Bogart
"I like talking to you more than I like Genocide"
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 12:58 PM MST up reply actions
lol
Ok…I will be nicer to you. Promise.
A hot dog at the ballgame beats roast beef at the Ritz. ~Humphrey Bogart
seeing how i'm making everyone become a fan of your photography
/frumps
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 1:04 PM MST up reply actions
yes you did. Credit to Muzia.
and then I mandated it
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 1:09 PM MST up reply actions
and
I’m giving you a sweet deal on a print….
A hot dog at the ballgame beats roast beef at the Ritz. ~Humphrey Bogart
I'm sorry
RMN…thank you for being a fan, and for promoting me. Is there anything that I can for you in return?
A hot dog at the ballgame beats roast beef at the Ritz. ~Humphrey Bogart
call me
no, I’m just messing around. I mean, I like seeing pictures of the people here, but I’m teasing about most everything else. Except, you know, where the ball is teed up and people are expecting me not to swing…
just keep being an awesome rowbot how’s that. Oh, and thank Muzia for being the first to be a fan and the one gushing over the work more than the rest of us.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 12, 2010 1:12 PM MST up reply actions
I became a fan too...:)
Dear Rockies- What a fun ride! Best comeback in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Yorvit Torrealba-Our clutch has gone out,along with the best name in baseball. Sad Panda :(
Brad Hawpe- UZR isn't everything!
Dexter Fowler- The Bedazzler- Blinding speed, blinding smile, leaps Utleys in a single bound.
Are you the
one who shares my birthday?
A hot dog at the ballgame beats roast beef at the Ritz. ~Humphrey Bogart
