2010 Hall of Fame Announcement Discussion
by Russ Oates on Jan 6, 2010 11:52 AM MST
in Miscellaneous
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PrintDiscuss the Hall of Fame announcement as it happens. Full results compared to SBN's vote when available.
The Class of 2010 chosen by the BBWAA is Andre Dawson.
|
Name |
Votes |
Percentage |
|
Andre Dawson |
420 |
77.90% |
|
Bert Blyleven |
400 |
74.20% |
|
Roberto Alomar |
397 |
73.70% |
|
Jack Morris |
282 |
52.30% |
|
Barry Larkin |
278 |
51.60% |
|
Lee Smith |
255 |
47.30% |
|
Edgar Martinez |
195 |
36.20% |
|
Tim Raines |
164 |
30.40% |
|
Mark McGwire |
128 |
23.70% |
|
Alan Trammell |
121 |
22.40% |
|
Fred McGriff |
116 |
21.50% |
|
Don Mattingly |
87 |
16.10% |
|
Dave Parker |
82 |
15.20% |
|
Dale Murphy |
63 |
11.70% |
|
Harold Baines |
33 |
6.10% |
|
Andres Galarraga |
22 |
4.10% |
|
Robin Ventura |
7 |
1.30% |
|
Ellis Burks |
2 |
0.40% |
|
Eric Karros |
2 |
0.40% |
|
Kevin Appier |
1 |
0.20% |
|
Pat Hentgen |
1 |
0.20% |
|
David Segui |
1 |
0.20% |
|
Mike Jackson |
0 |
|
|
Ray Lankford |
0 |
|
|
Shane Reynolds |
0 |
|
|
Todd Zeile |
0 |
219 comments
|
0 recs |
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Bert Blyleven
fell short by 0.8%
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Needed
five votes to reach 75%
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that's some crap right there
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 12:13 PM MST up reply actions
He's getting closer though
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf." - Tug McGraw after being asked if he liked grass or Astroturf better.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 1:14 PM MST up reply actions
He deserved better
I hate how most voters will leave people who are deserving off the list because they feel they have too many names on their ballot as is. This whole games the voters play where they try make the inducted class for that year as small as possible has become ridiculous. I bet it will continue until there is a year that not a single name on the ballot is voted in. It’s becoming petty and almost juvenille, kind of like the jerks who don’t cast a vote for Cal Ripken Jr and Tom Seaver and I’m sure when Maddux and RJ have their names on the ballot they won’t be unanimous either. There’s a difference between over-thinking and being ignorant and that’s certainly the impression most voters give.
Voters are justified for having their beef for not putting McGwire on their ballot, and will be as more suspected juicers appear on the ballot, but vendettas seem to be what ultimatly persuades their votes. It’s gotten to the point where voters spend more time thinking of who to leave off their list rather then put on it and that’s a shame.
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they're not voting him in because he doesn't have 300 wins
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:35 PM MST up reply actions
Those 250 loses don't help either
His WHIP is awesome though
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf." - Tug McGraw after being asked if he liked grass or Astroturf better.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 1:50 PM MST up reply actions
so he's not in because his teams weren't good enough?
super awesome, I guess him and his absurd number of career complete games and career 3.28 ERA just didn’t WILL the win enough
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:52 PM MST up reply actions
I agree
I just think that’s a big reson why he’s not getting in.
He’s actually the only one I would vote in this year. (I’d have to look at Alomar closer)
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf." - Tug McGraw after being asked if he liked grass or Astroturf better.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 2:04 PM MST up reply actions
Those 250 losses
Blyleven pitched for some awful teams in his career. It’s criminal that he’s not in the HOF when pitchers like Don Sutton are.
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That's not an atrocity...
this award he was given in 1908 was an atrocity.
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"Viola and Blyleven, and pray for 7"
Was the mantra for the 1987 World Series. That has to be worth something
Hating the Yankees since 1918 (and no, not all is forgiven)
Nah, I don't credit Mattingly for being nicknamed Donnie Baseball
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 2:09 PM MST up reply actions
Not so much the mantra
But the value he and Frank Viola meant to that club – they had the worst regular season record of all World Series champs.
Hating the Yankees since 1918 (and no, not all is forgiven)
They did
That honor now goes to the 06 Cards
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf." - Tug McGraw after being asked if he liked grass or Astroturf better.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 2:33 PM MST up reply actions
Alomar was short also.
Five ballots left blank.
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Galarraga
appeared on 22 ballots, making 4.1% of the ballots. He will not appear on the ballot any longer.
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what percentage do you need to be on the next years ballot?
Dex Knows
Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. -C.S. Lewis
5%
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Full results
Andre Dawson 420 (77.9%), Bert Blyleven 400 (74.2%), Roberto Alomar 397 (73.7%), Jack Morris 282 (52.3%), Barry Larkin 278 (51.6%), Lee Smith 255 (47.3%), Edgar Martinez 195 (36.2%), Tim Raines 164 (30.4%), Mark McGwire 128 (23.7%), Alan Trammell 121 (22.4%), Fred McGriff 116 (21.5%), Don Mattingly 87 (16.1%), Dave Parker 82 (15.2%), Dale Murphy 63 (11.7%), Harold Baines 33 (6.1%), Andres Galarraga 22 (4.1%), Robin Ventura 7 (1.3%), Ellis Burks 2 (0.4%), Eric Karros 2 (0.4%), Kevin Appier 1 (0.2%), Pat Hentgen 1 (0.2%), David Segui 1 (0.2%), Mike Jackson 0, Ray Lankford 0, Shane Reynolds 0, Todd Zeile 0.
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Too much.
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That's one insanely close vote.
"There are only two important things in life: baseball and breathing. But at least you can survive without breathing for 3 minutes."
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Well
how many years does Bert have left? Alomar is almost a lock for next year, and I think some people didn’t want him getting in on the first ballot so they didn’t vote for him.
JFK
Two more for Bly.
Barring a disaster, he should be in in 2011.
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if he isn't the HoF is a complete joke
as if it wasn’t getting there already
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 12:22 PM MST up reply actions
Also
I think it’s dumb that McGriff got such a small number of votes. If Fred had managed to hit 7 more homers in his career, he would have been shoe-in today. 7.
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Here are next year's
first-timers: Jeff Bagwell, Rafael Palmeiro, John Olerud, Kevin Brown, Larry Walker, Juan Gonzalez, Tino Martinez, B.J. Surhoff, Marquis Grissom, John Franco, Bret Boone, Al Leiter, Benito Santiago, Carlos Baerga, Raul Mondesi, Bobby Higginson, Wilson Alvarez, Rey Sanchez, Charles Johnson, Jose Offerman, Ugueth Urbina, Ismael Valdez, Dan Wilson, Paul Quantrill, Cal Eldred, Kirk Rueter, Steve Reed
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Some of that list
is pretty strong. And with 14 people coming back next year will have a lot of candidates.
JFK
Strong, but
strong enough to gain how many votes. Bagwell, Olerud, Walker, and Franco should receive a bunch of support, but I’m not sure on the others.
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We're getting heavily into the steroids era with that list.
The more ‘roiders eligible, the harder to figure out who gets the McGwire treatment & who doesn’t. Palmeiro does for sure, because he lied about it in a very public way. Bagwell?
Much-rumored to be a user, but never proven & never admitted it. Walker? Don’t recall if he ever admitted use or not.
It gets harder each year to assess the steroid taint. On the way: Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, P. Rodriguez, Tejada, Giambi, with most of those being shoe-ins but for the ’roids.
New decade, new result: time for a Rockies' division championship.
To answer your question, I think they’re all going to get the ‘McGwire treatment’ because if there’s one group of people who NEVER miss a chance to climb onto a high horse, it’s sportswriters.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
Of those, Bagwell and Walker are the only ones that get my vote. Well, them and Steve Reed, greatest pitcher in Rockies history.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
Brent Mayne is the greatest pitcher in Rockies history.
by Greg Stanwood on Jan 6, 2010 1:08 PM MST up reply actions
There's no doubt about it.
That game was epic
"There are only two important things in life: baseball and breathing. But at least you can survive without breathing for 3 minutes."
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ubaldo jimenez is the greatest pitcher in Rockies history
book it :)
Dear Rockies-Thank you for a wonderful season! Best turnaround in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Garrett Atkins-So Long, Farewell, Auf weidersehen, Goodbye!! You were a great Rockie!
Yorvit Torrealba-Thank you for your clutchiness, en fuegoness and 2 point take down of Matt Kemp!
Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
Aside from Brian Bohannon
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and Denny Stark
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:35 PM MST up reply actions
Damian Moss
And Ritz Crackers was the man
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there is a man on base.
Bryn Smith..
first Rockies pitcher to win a game.
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Of those, Bagwell is the only one that ever gets in the HOF
Larry Walker will get sorta close
That’s actually a pretty weak list, as far as HOF voting goes. Guys like Olerud won’t even be on the ballot more than three years, tops.
Which makes next year the best year for Larkin and Edgar Martinez to ever get in.
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Bagwell's the only one I'd consider
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf." - Tug McGraw after being asked if he liked grass or Astroturf better.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 1:20 PM MST up reply actions
You wouldn't consider Larry Walker?
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I actually would
It’s just that I’ve already looked at him a lot and I don’t think he should get in. I think the prehumidor Coors Field really helped him. He never hit more than 23 HR’s in a season before he came to Colorado
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf." - Tug McGraw after being asked if he liked grass or Astroturf better.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 1:28 PM MST up reply actions
I would and wouldn't
it’s tough to say. The man was a force at the plate, Coors or no, but his injuries really hampered his career.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:29 PM MST up reply actions
I consider him an elite hitter just not a HOF
For me I don’t like guys getting in unless they are a slam dunk.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf." - Tug McGraw after being asked if he liked grass or Astroturf better.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 1:36 PM MST up reply actions
pretty much
the HoF is getting too watered down by these borderline players. I mean, excellent as compared to the unwashed masses, but as compared to the True Elite?
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:39 PM MST up reply actions
But the HoF
is filled with crappy players who made it in because of connections. Look at the players inducted in the 40s.
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Rick Ferrell is the most hysterical instance of cronyism getting a player inducted.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
so open the floodgates
I wouldn’t have allowed cronies in either
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:46 PM MST up reply actions
I would...
He was very special (the good way) at the plate and a very good fielder as I recall.
Also, he was part of one of the most memorable moments in all star game history. I still love switching to righty after RJ threw one past his head!!
by attackparrot on Jan 6, 2010 5:25 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Agree he was a special player
I just don’t think he was quite good enough for the Hall
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf." - Tug McGraw after being asked if he liked grass or Astroturf better.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 6:06 PM MST up reply actions
Bagwell should be a lock
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:28 PM MST up reply actions
List of moments I Can't Wait for Next Voting Season
1) To see Raffy Palmeiro be on camera for the first time since lying to the world and making a total ass of himself, and maybe even talk about juicing and some of the players he suspected of using.
2) The possibility of Raffy Palmeiro talking about Brett Boone juicing. (because he totally did)
3) LLLLLLLLLLLLLL-ARRY WALKKKKKKK-ER
4) To see if John Olerud will be the first (and probably only ever) player to be wearing a helmet on his plaque in Cooperstown.
5) To See if Jose Offerman throws his bat at the voters for not giving him any votes and thus removing him from eligibility.
6) To see if anybody leaves Uggy Urbina off their ballot after he sends them weeks and weeks worth of threat mail from his prison cell.
7) To hear Kevin Brown be asked everytime about a contract he signed 10 years ago rather then his career.
8) To see that CR logo on plaque on Cooperstown!!!!
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there is a man on base.
Let's hear it for The Hawk (Andre Dawson)
I’ve only been to a few games at Wrigley Field, but one of them was when Andre Dawson was in his prime.
He was intentionally walked 5 times, which was a new ML record at the time. No one wanted to face him.
Before his knees gave out (due to years playing on essentially concrete in Montreal), he was the classic 5-tool player: he could run, he could hit for power, he could hit for average, he had a cannon arm, he was one of the best outfielders in the game.
If CarGo gets anywhere close to Andre Dawson’s skills level, we’ll all forget about Matt Holliday.
I was concerned that Dawson’s shortened career, due to his knees, might cost him HOF selection, but I’m glad to see that didn’t happen.
New decade, new result: time for a Rockies' division championship.
I can't believe he got in with that career .323 OBP
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf." - Tug McGraw after being asked if he liked grass or Astroturf better.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 1:29 PM MST up reply actions
completely concur
Dawson had some good years, but overall I’m not wowed by his career line. He’s worse than Jim Rice. And Rice doesn’t belong in either.
but if he gets in, Walker needs to get in.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:30 PM MST up reply actions
I hate the "oh if this guy got in than this guy needs to" stuff
I feel the more people you let in the more it dilutes the talent there. I want it to remain as exclusive as possible.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf." - Tug McGraw after being asked if he liked grass or Astroturf better.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 1:39 PM MST up reply actions
I agree completely
I’d rather neither of them make it.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:48 PM MST up reply actions
Bob Costas
thinks Walker has to get in.
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MLB Network.
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There would be worse Hall of Famers than Larry Walker. Andre Dawson, for instance.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
There are plenty of players
in the Hall that shouldn’t be and even more that deserve to be but aren’t in the Hall. I just worry that combination of the Coors effect and steroid suspicions (esp due to his injuries at the end of his career) will undermine what he did in the minds of some writers.
That’s a slippery slope when it comes to ‘steroid suspicions’ – if that becomes any kind of factor then we won’t have any Hall of Famers that debut between Jose Canseco and the release of the Mitchell Report. You could suspect them all and nobody really knows anything.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
Some writers are very touchy about it though
and when you combine it with the Coors perception in (many of the same) writers minds I think it could affect his chances. That’s why I hope there’s a push to make his case over the next year.
I read an article from Jayson Stark yestesrday
and he said he specifically didn’t vote for Andres Galarraga because of one word: Denver.
"There are only two important things in life: baseball and breathing. But at least you can survive without breathing for 3 minutes."
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well who cares what Jayson Stark says..
the only thing I like that he writes is the Strange but True stuff…:)
Dear Rockies-Thank you for a wonderful season! Best turnaround in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Garrett Atkins-So Long, Farewell, Auf weidersehen, Goodbye!! You were a great Rockie!
Yorvit Torrealba-Thank you for your clutchiness, en fuegoness and 2 point take down of Matt Kemp!
Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
Well, take a look at his career in Colorado
and his career Out of Colorado
yeah
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:30 PM MST up reply actions
but that's the issue
it’s not the hall of “not too bad”
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:36 PM MST up reply actions
It's not the Hall of "elite MLB players" though, either...
I mean, if we’re talking about what the title of the Hall actually is, The Big Cat gets in way before Blyleven.
that's tough for me to make a case for or against
I wasn’t alive during the best years of Blyleven’s career, so I’d only heard of him like in a SI retrospective book.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:40 PM MST up reply actions
No
Blyleven was an elite pitcher. The fact he didn’t get to play on the Dodgers, Yankees, Reds, Cardinals teams of the 70s and 80s should be held against him.
Not to sound all “holier than thou”, but those who grew up after the age of Sportscenter never got to really appreciate him.
Seven times he threw over 275 innings. Something like 5th all time in strikeouts.
But how many wins can you ask for when your career included five seasons with the early 80s Indians, two with the Rangers, and three with the Angels before they got decent?
If he pitched that amount of his career with good teams, he’s easily at 330 wins.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
see, now someone can bring up the
same argument used against guys who played hurt or whatever, it’s the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of What If
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 2:10 PM MST up reply actions
But it's not a What If
Because it’s not “what if” he played for better teams. I’m saying his actual performance numbers stand completely on their own, but that writers have penalized him for the quality of teams he played on.
Because, you know, Pitching Wins really tell you who’s a better pitcher.
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I didn't say it
somebody else said it
I’m starting to rub off on you people
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 2:51 PM MST up reply actions
I'm just saying the Blyleven and Walker cases are different
Under any reasonable review where pitching wins aren’t underscored, Blyleven gets in, and should have years ago.
Walker…you can argue that his counting stats just aren’t anywhere near HOF level, even if his skill and ability in his prime were.
Now those who say Walker was so much better than Dawson, the truth is, Andre Dawson was in many ways Larry Walker before Larry Walker was Larry Walker. Pitchers feared him, opposing runners absolutely feared him, and opposing managers feared him.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
thing is, Walker's bat was miles beyond Dawson's
even if you nerf the numbers a bit for Coors Field.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 3:06 PM MST up reply actions
But here's where Walker fails despite that
I’m not saying it’s right and just, I’m just saying that’s what is.
As much as I’ve always dug Larry Walker (even as an Expo…they day we got him was one of the happiest in my fandom), if you take his career counting numbers, and then nerf them for Coors, they’re no way at the level of HOF outfielders.
In Dawson’s case, the raw counting numbers are at least in the ballpark of HOFers.
(Though his OPS basically guarantees Holliday the HOF someday in comparison, lol.)
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
you have to consider
That guys like walker and the big cat spent the prime of their careers, so comparing their stats to “outside Colorado” does them a great disservice. Griffey Jr sure isn’t a HOFer as a white sock
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by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 6, 2010 1:51 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
it does a great disservice
but if we’re pretending that the mid-to-late 90s didn’t massively inflate offensive numbers at Coors Field, we’re fooling ourselves.
Andres Galarraga had 3 seasons with 150+ wRC+ – 2 in Colorado, 1 in Montreal.
Career 119.
That’s not even close. Not even borderline.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:54 PM MST up reply actions
Or you still believe the standard
interpretation of the rifle musket/Coors Field.
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zuh
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 2:11 PM MST up reply actions
Yes, well,
wait a few years until I start delivering history-oriented baseball lectures at the annual SMH meeting.
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or just explain?
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 2:39 PM MST up reply actions
I explained
the whole rifle musket/Coors thing back in December.
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by Russ Oates on Jan 6, 2010 3:06 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
cool i missed it
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 3:11 PM MST up reply actions
wait nm found it
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 3:11 PM MST up reply actions
While his career tOPS+ is only 80 on the road
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf." - Tug McGraw after being asked if he liked grass or Astroturf better.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 1:57 PM MST up reply actions
If you wipe away everyone who had any suspicions, there's not hardly anyone left
Craig Counsell would be in the Hall of Fame.
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by Andrew T. Fisher on Jan 7, 2010 12:44 PM MST up reply actions
I would like to know what stats they are talking about
"They fired me for being too old. I'll never make the mistake of turning seventy again." -- Casey Stengel after being let go by the Yankees
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 7, 2010 12:54 PM MST up reply actions
this made me smile broadly :)
Dear Rockies-Thank you for a wonderful season! Best turnaround in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
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If I recall correctly
he said, “Some people might says Coors (maybe Denver), but he has to be in.”
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yep...I heard that as well
Dear Rockies-Thank you for a wonderful season! Best turnaround in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Garrett Atkins-So Long, Farewell, Auf weidersehen, Goodbye!! You were a great Rockie!
Yorvit Torrealba-Thank you for your clutchiness, en fuegoness and 2 point take down of Matt Kemp!
Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
Well, I’d say things look good for Alomar and Larkin moving forward. McGwire, on the other hand, isn’t getting in. And at the risk of starting a conversation that always takes a passionate turn – that’s too bad.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
Beyond the Boxscore has a nice method for examining a player's HOF candidacy.
Here. From that you can tell that Blyleven not only belongs in the Hall, he would be one of its better members. Also, Dawson does not belong. He seems to benefit from some of the Jim Rice “most feared” nostalgia. Also, if Raines doesn’t get elected it will be a shame.
by RoxnSox09 on Jan 6, 2010 12:40 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
I gotta disagree
For several years, Dawson was the best position player in the game. Jim Rice never was.
Rice’s HR numbers were also inflated by the Monster’s short LF porch; Dawson played more in cavernous Olympic Stadium than anywhere else. Defensively, Rice wasn’t anywhere near Dawson
I’m ambivalent about Blyleven. On “pure stats”, yes, he belongs. But was he ever the best pitcher in the game for any stretch of time during his career? I’d say not.
These type of debates boil down to how much full-career stats should determine HOF status & how much “peak of his career” performance should count. I lean toward the latter. If only full-career stats (especially total pitching wins, total HR’s, total RBI’s, total doubles, etc.) count, then Sandy Koufax & Dizzy Dean probably don’t make it, though both were among the best pitchers ever at their peaks.
Ditto with Andre Dawson as a position player.
New decade, new result: time for a Rockies' division championship.
When was Don Sutton "the best pitcher in the game"
Gaylord Perry? When did that become a qualifier for the HOF?
And also, I don't see how you can say
that Dawson was among the best ever at his peak. He had one season where he hit 49 HR, but his next best was 32. He stole over 30 bases in three seasons. His best OPS+ was 156. (For comparison, Edgar Martinez passed that mark on seven occasions.) The way I see it, he had one season where he hit a bunch of homers and drove in a bunch of runs, and he was playing for the Cubs at the time, so people think he was great.
Edgar Martinez was a DH.
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so what
Andre Dawson had bad knees
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:31 PM MST up reply actions
Did he actually play baseball?
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Martinez, that is.
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before I launch into this
I’m assuming you’re saying he was a career DH and doesn’t belong in, right?
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:37 PM MST up reply actions
I'm saying that's
an argument. Whether I believe it is another matter.
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This is me, right now, reading your opinion:
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
I'm not a fan of the Red Sox
Ted Williams is in the Hall.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:44 PM MST up reply actions
I suppose we had better take American League pitchers from the DH out of the Hall, too. They only did one thing on the field. Guess they weren’t baseball players either.
And don’t get me started on relief pitchers. Didn’t even play the whole game. Not baseball players. Get Bruce Sutter the hell out of there.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
All those Mariano Rivera
supporters are going to be disappointed.
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no way Mariano doesn't go...
Selig would not allow that to happen :)
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sarcasm
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 6:26 PM MST up reply actions
I'll respond to this one because it's not ambiguous.
I don’t support the DH rule. But that’s not Edgar Martinez’ fault. He took advantage of a RULE of baseball – a RULE in the RULEBOOK, that is perfectly sanctioned and allowed for by all Major League Baseball Clubs.
The man could not field because he was injured early in his career as a 3B. It better benefited his team for him to be a DH, rather than A. usurp Tino or B. risk ending his career by getting hurt further attempting to field.
Just short of Half of Major League Baseball plays and recognizes the DH. Yes, from our stance, it is a gimmick, etc. But it is in the rules, it is baseball, even if it isn’t exactly how we like it.
Edgar deserves it.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:44 PM MST up reply actions
I agree
His stats for his career and his longevity for consistently putting up those stats is great. I want to see him in the HoF.
JFK
yet he's a career DH
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:48 PM MST up reply actions
Flat-out a great hitter
Not Ted Williams, but one of the best in recent history – he should be in.
Hating the Yankees since 1918 (and no, not all is forgiven)
I can understand some people wanting to penalize DHs.
If you want to apply some sort of positional adjustment, then go ahead, as long as you can justify it rationally. Banning all designated hitters is not a rational adjustment. When you look at the ordered WAR distributions at BtB, Edgar is HOF worthy even with the positional adjustment.
(By the way, I didn’t mention Edgar earlier because I have a huge interest in him as a player. I was pointing out that, at least offensively, he provided much more value to his team than even Dawson’s peak years. I do want Edgar to make it, though, because I am a huge Frank Thomas fan, and if the voters decide they don’t like DHs then Frank is in trouble.)
It's funny, but I don't think of Andre Dawson as a Cub
I always think of him as an Expo…but that’s probably because he was a Denver Bear before he became an Expo :)
Dear Rockies-Thank you for a wonderful season! Best turnaround in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
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Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
He should go in as an Expo.
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agreed.....
I really hope he does. That’s totally up to the player right? Do you think they have pressure from the league to go in under one team vs another?
Dear Rockies-Thank you for a wonderful season! Best turnaround in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Garrett Atkins-So Long, Farewell, Auf weidersehen, Goodbye!! You were a great Rockie!
Yorvit Torrealba-Thank you for your clutchiness, en fuegoness and 2 point take down of Matt Kemp!
Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
Cooperstown
determines it after teams started promising all sorts of things to get a player to wear their cap into the Hall.
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ohhh...well that stinks...
and doesn’t bode well for the Expos I fear….
Dear Rockies-Thank you for a wonderful season! Best turnaround in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Garrett Atkins-So Long, Farewell, Auf weidersehen, Goodbye!! You were a great Rockie!
Yorvit Torrealba-Thank you for your clutchiness, en fuegoness and 2 point take down of Matt Kemp!
Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
Actually
they might let him go in as an Expo because he would probably be the last player who you could make that case for.
JFK
Tim Raines
"There are only two important things in life: baseball and breathing. But at least you can survive without breathing for 3 minutes."
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Not looking good right now for Raines with just 30% of the vote.
We’ll see if that picks up as the dinosaurs of the media establishment start to die off.
That's true
He still has a lot of eligibility though, so you never know.
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I'm on the fence about Raines
with very little further research, a 137 wRC+ is very good. It’s on the border of “should be in” and “stupid sportswriters who can’t value OBP whatsoever won’t vote him in”
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:34 PM MST up reply actions
SB totals are great though
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:34 PM MST up reply actions
I agree he's on the border but fo rme border guys don't get in
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf." - Tug McGraw after being asked if he liked grass or Astroturf better.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 1:43 PM MST up reply actions
I agree
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:44 PM MST up reply actions
We're agreeing a lot today
That’s unusual :-)
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf." - Tug McGraw after being asked if he liked grass or Astroturf better.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 1:59 PM MST up reply actions
That's a no
for RJ as an Expo?
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RJ probably goes in as a Diamondback
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He won a WS as a dBack.
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6 years, 4 Cy Youngs
and his actual pitching improved drastically.
Dback for sure.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 4:37 PM MST up reply actions
Does anyone know what McGwire got during his other years of eligability?
Is there a trend developing with the steroids things?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf." - Tug McGraw after being asked if he liked grass or Astroturf better.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 1:39 PM MST reply actions
23 percent, 21 percent, and now 23 percent again. The needle isn’t moving. (erm… pun not intended.)
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
Well at least it's not going up
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf." - Tug McGraw after being asked if he liked grass or Astroturf better.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 1:43 PM MST up reply actions
I'm completely on the fence about McGwire
I feel he should be in based on record-breaking accomplishment, but I’m not going to stand too firmly on that.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:46 PM MST up reply actions
I would vote for McGwire, and I would vote for any player who was not suspended under the rules of Major League Baseball’s drug policy post-2007. Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod… they all have a place on my ballot. I realize this is not a majority opinion, but it’s mine.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
In fact, I’m not wedded to keeping anybody out of the Hall who wasn’t expressly banned from baseball for life based upon steroid use, punished or unpunished, admitted or whispered. But I’m a long way from joining the BBWAA anyway, so I’m just tilting at windmills with this, I guess.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
I pretty much agree here
They need to indict these guys or let them go. If they’re let go, they need to be absolved, if they’re indicted, do with them as you will. But something needs to be done.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 1:55 PM MST up reply actions
Exactly
It’s kind of unfair to leave these guys floating in limbo; I mean, yeah, they did something bad, but if people aren’t going to do anything about it except make dark hints, they should just drop it already.
They can drop it, definitely
After these guys confess, admit their mistake and sevre their time.serve their time
The question pretty much comes down to do you want PED users to be in the Hall?
I would vote no but that’s just my opinion.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf." - Tug McGraw after being asked if he liked grass or Astroturf better.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 2:01 PM MST up reply actions
The problem I have with a blanket exclusion like that
is that once you’re beyond the batch of admitted users how should a writer decide? Not everyone used obviously, but we don’t know every user with certainty.
I think the writers should vote based solely on numbers
I think anyone caught should be off the ballot. True you won’t catch everyone, but I want it as clean as possible.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf." - Tug McGraw after being asked if he liked grass or Astroturf better.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 2:06 PM MST up reply actions
We know with certainty that McGwire used them. But what he used wasn't illegal at the time.
But it was still performance enhancing. He’s a solid no from me.
We actually don't know he wasn't using roids
He admitted using andro, but that does not mean he didn’t use actual anabolic roids.
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From the ever-reliable wikipedia:
On March 12, 2004, the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2004 was introduced into the United States Senate. It amended the Controlled Substance Act to place both anabolic steroids and prohormones on a list of controlled substances, making possession of the banned substances a federal crime. The law took effect on January 20, 2005. Surprisingly, andro was legally defined as an anabolic steroid, even though there is scant evidence that androstenedione itself is anabolic in nature.
(and fwiw I was referring directly to PEDs without specifying which)
I know andro was legal when he played
But what we don’t know is what he was doing as far back as the 80s, when he had pretty much the same build, and with Canseco’s allegations that he was using them.
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Yeah, I too strongly suspect that he abused steroids or other PEDs
And am firmly against him ever making it into the Hall. But the reason for the above post is that, whatever else he did, we KNOW he used performance enhancing drugs. And the only real mitigating argument – everyone was doing it – is no argument at all, especially since the HOF does have a requirement for integrity.
I personally say yes
They still had to him them.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 2:11 PM MST up reply actions
But they destroyed sacred records in the game doing it.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf." - Tug McGraw after being asked if he liked grass or Astroturf better.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 2:17 PM MST up reply actions
Nothing is sports is ‘sacred’.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
This is a different argument alltogether
From a baseball sense, those records were sacred. Just like the 07 Mets collapse was not a disaster or devistating in the real world but it was a disaster and devistating in a baseball context.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf." - Tug McGraw after being asked if he liked grass or Astroturf better.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 2:37 PM MST up reply actions
But you wouldn’t declare a national day of mourning for the Mets folding, or require the other teams to have moments of silence. I see what you’re saying, but I don’t like the idea of ‘sanctity’ keeping people out of the Hall of Fame, particularly considering there are people in the Hall currently who violated that sanctity in other ways.
"You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around the whole time." - Jim Bouton
don't care, they hit the dingers
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 2:40 PM MST up reply actions
And that's why you're gonna love Olivo
ZOMG DINGERZ!!
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nah
but I hear belts some taters
I love me some taters
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 2:52 PM MST up reply actions
Juicers got their money and recognition while playing..
they don’t need to be recognized again by the HoF for cheating.
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I can't buy that logic
That would be like if a kid stole a copy of the test before he had to take it and found out what all the questions were. Now he still had to study, look up all the answers, remember them and get all the questions right but that doesn’t mean he deserves an A.
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf." - Tug McGraw after being asked if he liked grass or Astroturf better.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 6:14 PM MST up reply actions
my issue is I just don't care about steroids.
They just need to decide and then stand by it.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 6:27 PM MST up reply actions
That's the problem
Selig does nothing
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf." - Tug McGraw after being asked if he liked grass or Astroturf better.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 6:58 PM MST up reply actions
Dawson
I say this as a Dawson fan from back in the days he played in Denver. I don’t think he deserved it, but since he made it, I’m happy to see him there. I hope he wears an Expos cap.
I do think it should have been Blyleven, Raines (another former Denver Bear), Larkin (former Denver minor leaguer) and Alomar and maybe Edgar Martinez. I’m not too worked up about Alomar, who probably deserves it most, since it is his first ballot and the threshold for first ballot hall-of-famers is always higher.
I don't see Larkin as being any better than Dawson
but he was still an effective but slightly-below-average player in 2004 with Cincinnati.
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 4:31 PM MST up reply actions
Larkin was the 2nd best SS during his prime..
after the Wizard of Oz. For someone that doesn’t like DH’s you gotta give Larkin credit as a defensive SS.
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absolutely I do
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 6, 2010 4:38 PM MST up reply actions
even though he stole the MVP from Bichette
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there is a man on base.
Is that Holliday or Cargo wearing No5?
Dear Rockies-Thank you for a wonderful season! Best turnaround in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Garrett Atkins-So Long, Farewell, Auf weidersehen, Goodbye!! You were a great Rockie!
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Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
Holliday
"They fired me for being too old. I'll never make the mistake of turning seventy again." -- Casey Stengel after being let go by the Yankees
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 7, 2010 8:01 PM MST up reply actions
It's a righthanded CarGo.
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Ha...I didn't even notice the glove hand...
my bad….I looked for the bed of sunflower seed shells…but that didn’t help..lol
Dear Rockies-Thank you for a wonderful season! Best turnaround in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Garrett Atkins-So Long, Farewell, Auf weidersehen, Goodbye!! You were a great Rockie!
Yorvit Torrealba-Thank you for your clutchiness, en fuegoness and 2 point take down of Matt Kemp!
Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
The little World Series thing at the top of the jersey gave it away too
"They fired me for being too old. I'll never make the mistake of turning seventy again." -- Casey Stengel after being let go by the Yankees
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 7, 2010 9:03 PM MST up reply actions
I didn't notice that either...but I feel stupid
Dear Rockies-Thank you for a wonderful season! Best turnaround in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Garrett Atkins-So Long, Farewell, Auf weidersehen, Goodbye!! You were a great Rockie!
Yorvit Torrealba-Thank you for your clutchiness, en fuegoness and 2 point take down of Matt Kemp!
Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
Fire the entire BBWAA
on a rocket ship into the sun
To all of the doubters, to all of the haters, one simple message:
We will be back! Our purple knights will be victorious once again.
by The Lodo Magic Man on Jan 6, 2010 7:06 PM MST reply actions
Can we put ARod on that ship?
"I dunno. I never smoked any Astroturf." - Tug McGraw after being asked if he liked grass or Astroturf better.
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 7:14 PM MST up reply actions
As long as Kruk is the pilot, anything is possible
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He'll steer towards Atlanta
missing the Sun altogether…
Dear Rockies-Thank you for a wonderful season! Best turnaround in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Garrett Atkins-So Long, Farewell, Auf weidersehen, Goodbye!! You were a great Rockie!
Yorvit Torrealba-Thank you for your clutchiness, en fuegoness and 2 point take down of Matt Kemp!
Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
Unless you tell him the sun is a big ball of cheese
"They fired me for being too old. I'll never make the mistake of turning seventy again." -- Casey Stengel after being let go by the Yankees
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 6, 2010 8:29 PM MST up reply actions
Put it between him and his back end
And he’ll spin round and round chasing his tail
Don't hate the player, hate the game, except all Yankees players.
but he'll insist that Atlanta will catch the Sun
Dear Rockies-Thank you for a wonderful season! Best turnaround in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Garrett Atkins-So Long, Farewell, Auf weidersehen, Goodbye!! You were a great Rockie!
Yorvit Torrealba-Thank you for your clutchiness, en fuegoness and 2 point take down of Matt Kemp!
Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
And he'll continue to insist that Atlanta is right in the race to catch the Sun
even after it goes supernova.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
why
Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 7, 2010 9:53 AM MST up reply actions
I hate ARod
Remeber the least favorite Yankee thing?
"They fired me for being too old. I'll never make the mistake of turning seventy again." -- Casey Stengel after being let go by the Yankees
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 7, 2010 12:31 PM MST up reply actions
oh, nothing really deep
fair enough, can we put Dave Roberts in there as well
Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 7, 2010 1:24 PM MST up reply actions
You can I don't hate him that much
I think each Rowbot should get to put one person they dislike on it.
"They fired me for being too old. I'll never make the mistake of turning seventy again." -- Casey Stengel after being let go by the Yankees
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 7, 2010 8:03 PM MST up reply actions
um you mean baseball player right?
and I love Casey Stengel quotes…:)
Dear Rockies-Thank you for a wonderful season! Best turnaround in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Garrett Atkins-So Long, Farewell, Auf weidersehen, Goodbye!! You were a great Rockie!
Yorvit Torrealba-Thank you for your clutchiness, en fuegoness and 2 point take down of Matt Kemp!
Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
Preferably baseball players
but if you want someone else on it be my guest and add them to the list.
Glad you like the quote. I think what I’m gonna do with my sig for a while is keep putting up a new baseball quote every couple of days. I have sooooo many great ones and I think people will enjoy it. So be on the lookout :-)
"They fired me for being too old. I'll never make the mistake of turning seventy again." -- Casey Stengel after being let go by the Yankees
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 7, 2010 9:07 PM MST up reply actions
you should just put about 5 at one time
each on a different line :)
Dear Rockies-Thank you for a wonderful season! Best turnaround in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Garrett Atkins-So Long, Farewell, Auf weidersehen, Goodbye!! You were a great Rockie!
Yorvit Torrealba-Thank you for your clutchiness, en fuegoness and 2 point take down of Matt Kemp!
Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
Other posters might get lost every time you and I had a conversation
"They fired me for being too old. I'll never make the mistake of turning seventy again." -- Casey Stengel after being let go by the Yankees
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 8, 2010 11:02 AM MST up reply actions
I know..lol
Dear Rockies-Thank you for a wonderful season! Best turnaround in MLB history to become NL Wild Card Champs.
Troy Tulowitzki-MLB's BEST shortstop..nuff said
Garrett Atkins-So Long, Farewell, Auf weidersehen, Goodbye!! You were a great Rockie!
Yorvit Torrealba-Thank you for your clutchiness, en fuegoness and 2 point take down of Matt Kemp!
Brad Hawpe- I hope I get to see you in a Rockies uniform again!
Dexter Fowler - prowling CF, WC in his talons, leaping Utleys in a single bound!
That's what
the avatars are for. If they get lost then they can read a couple of the sig lines and tell who is who
JFK
BANNED
Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
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by Andrew Martin on Jan 9, 2010 10:45 PM MST up reply actions
I'll miss you SDcat
"The Dodgers are such a .500 team that if there was a way to split a three-game series, they'd find it." Vin Scully: On-Air Radio Broadcast (1990)
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Jan 10, 2010 12:08 AM MST up reply actions
aaaaagreed
Purple Row: Take this personally
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockiesmagicnumber
Learn about Batting Metrics
Learn about Pitching Metrics
by Andrew Martin on Jan 7, 2010 9:53 AM MST up reply actions
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