Tuesday Rockpile: Josh Willingham - Trade Target?
"We need an impactful bat, another piece to enhance (Cargo and Tulo). It makes so much sense," Jim Tracy said. "We will be looking for something like that." - Denver Post
I am going to suggest a name, and that name is going to be Josh Willingham of the Washington Nationals. He has not been linked to the Rockies yet, but perhaps he should be. I have long been a fan of the underrated slugger, and there has never been a time like this offseason to pursue him. Let's examine the situation.
Pros
If Dan O'Dowd could sculpt a player to put into Colorado's lineup, it would be a proven right-handed power bat at an affordable salary. That's exactly what Willingham is. The Nationals' left-fielder has posted a .363 wOBA in each of the last five seasons, an accomplishment that none of Carl Crawford, Jason Bay, Andre Ethier, Corey Hart, Jayson Werth and Vladimir Guerrero can boast. In fact, with all the press Vlad has gotten for his resurgence this season, his 2010 .360 wOBA would represent Willingham's worst season since 2005, when he had 28 PA. Josh is a quiet star.
While wielding considerable pop, he has also consistently gotten on base, posting a career .367 OBP, which peaked at .389 this season, a figure that would have led the Rockies in 2010. His 23% strikeout percentage puts him on par with Carlos Gonzalez, and his walk rate rose to nearly 15% in 2010, better than every Rockie not named Giambi. If Jim Tracy wrote Willingham on the line-up card, the Rockies would be assured of at least three premier performers.
Even better, he's a selfless player who is willing to play first base - and he has experience there, effectively filling the need of Helton's right-handed platoon partner. From a Washington Post article:
If asked, Willingham would be open to playing first. "He'd be open to doing anything he could for the team," (Willingham's agent Matt) Sosnick said. "They could use him out of the bullpen."
He entered the minors as a third baseman and was moved out of the infield due to defensive purposes. However, his experience leads him to be a possibility at both corner infield positions. Perfect.
Troy Renck has been hinting at a suspicion that Dan O'Dowd will make a notable move this offseason, most likely via trade. With a good collection of interesting prospects, O'Dowd could find a match in a trade for Willingham.
Even better, Willingham would be reasonably affordable for 2011. After making $4.6million in 2010, he would be due for a raise to $6-7million in his last season of arbitration, leaving open a slight possibility of retaining Jorge de la Rosa.
It's starting to sound like a guy Washington wouldn't want to part with, but as discussed at Federal Baseball, a trade might be possible. Mike Rizzo's number one priority is retaining Adam Dunn, who wants to stay in the NL. Not many NL teams are going to be a fit for Dunn, who isn't a defensive asset anywhere, so Washington's chances of retaining him are slightly increased.
Washington's contention window is still a few years away, and the Nationals would probably benefit from adding another young player or two to arrive in that window rather than allowing Willingham to leave in free agency or even play out the non-competitive years. As Patrick Reddington wrote at Federal Baseball:
Are Dunn and Willingham, both of them over 30-years-old, the answer for a team that feels it will be competitive a few years down the road?
Moreover, the money reserved for Willingham in 2011 could also be used to help the Nationals retain Dunn, who is a much bigger personality in Washington than Willingham. Though he has yet to be officially be made available, Rizzo would certainly listen to the right deal.
Cons
He isn't particularly a very good defensive player, and while he has improved, his fielding would get tested even more at the cavernous Coors Field. His career has been marred by a myriad of injuries (never exceeding 144 games), the latest of which was a torn meniscus in his left knee which robbed his 2010 season of the final six weeks. In part due to his anonymity in Miami and Washington and in part due to his late arrival in the majors, Willingham is surprisingly old and will start the 2011 season at the age of 32.
Willingham's arbitration years will run out after 2011, making him a free agent for the first time. That would leave O'Dowd with two options. One is to sign Willingham to a multi-year contract, buying out 2011 and a couple years of free agency. That would likely run 3 years and $30million, a contract Willingham has specifically said he is looking for. That fits well with the Rockies' contention window but likely pushes the possibility of re-signing Jorge de la Rosa out the window. Moreover, they would be paying him eight figures in his age 34 season.
The other option is to let him leave in free agency after 2011. He projects to be a Type A free agent, so the compensation draft picks prevent a horrible loss, but considering the price the Rockies would pay to acquire Willingham, just one year of services would hurt.
What would it cost? Consider that Mike Rizzo is known for asking way too high of a price in trade discussions. He asked for Madison Bumgarner or Jonathan Sanchez at the 2010 trade deadline for Willingham. So when Rizzo asks for Jhoulys Chacin, Dan O'Dowd will hang up and never call the Nationals again. While no team will likely deal a top prospect for one year of Willingham, there would be several teams calling Rizzo if his LF were made available, and the Rockies are never going to try to (nor should they try to) win a bidding war. But if O'Dowd can get Rizzo to bite on a prospect outside the top five, or a couple B prospects, the Rockies would have a legitimate threat in the lineup.
Lots of interesting news after the jump.
Rockies optimistic De La Rosa will sign as he enters free agency - The Denver Post Troy Renck reports that the Rockies have essentially closed the book on contract talks with Jorge de la Rosa for now, hoping still to sign him in the free agency period. Also, Renck writes that the Rockies are leaning against exercising Miguel Olivo's option, citing new hitting coach Carney Lansford's relationship with Chris Iannetta.
Baseball union head says players open to expanding playoffs - ESPN Union head Michael Weiner says there is a substantial sentiment among players to expand the playoffs, possibly adding more wild card teams as soon as 2012 and/or expanding the LDS series to seven games. No word on preventing Christmas baseball games.
Lee's stellar pitching lifts Texas, but free agency is looming - USATODAY.com If Cliff Lee listens to his wife, he will sign with the Rangers. His wife Kristen endured savage taunts from Yankee fans while sitting in the family section at Yankees Stadium during the ALCS. Plus, Texas is close to their Arkansas home. An interesting angle that might mean a lot.
GTR Newspapers | Find Local Tulsa, Bixby, Broken Arrow, Jenks, Union, and Owasso News, Sports, and Entertainment:Drillers to Host Rockies at ONEOK
The Rockies will play an exhibition game in Tulsa on March 30, 2011 before the season. It is a good way to reward the Driller fanbase for supporting former Drillers like Troy Tulowitzki, Ubaldo Jimenez and Ian Stewart.
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I like Willingham, and would be okay with going up to Purp #13 to acquire him.
PROJECT LIBRA: Depth / Transactions
"The highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others." - Socrates
Ben Paulsen seems like a good fit.
Their best 1B prospect is Chris Marrero, who is weak as far as first base prospects go. They could pretty much use help everywhere except for pitching and third base.
I'm willing to go higher than #13 to acquire him. I love Willingham and think he's a perfect fit.
any player below #10 that’s not heading to Asheville this season is fine by me.
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Hates Tulo. Loves Galiardi.
SB Nation Denver
Interesting name, but...
let’s see: getting old fast due to injuries, poor defensively, high strikeout ratio, high salary and steep asking price. Hmmmm
Keep looking
by Curt in Florida on Oct 26, 2010 7:59 AM MDT reply actions
Depends on the cost
I’d actually be okay with getting Willingham, not likely not at what Rizzo’s likely to ask for….but Willingham’s a better candidate to actually improve us in 2011 than Orlando Hudson or any of these other players bandied about lately. I just wouldn’t overpay for him.
So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?
Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?
by Mondogarage on Oct 26, 2010 10:07 AM MDT up reply actions
From FanGraphs,
It’s a quick read that calls for Chris Iannetta to play and being bullish on a lineup that has EY, CarGo, and Fowler in it.
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
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Who do we hate over there again? Jack Moore?
Zach Sanders forever Jack Moore never!
two Icehouse 24 oz beers = $3.20 two "fancy" Bud Light 24 oz beers = $5.00
NOW who comes out on top?
by frightened inmate #2 on Oct 26, 2010 8:42 AM MDT up reply actions
It alternates between whoever is trying to take a dump on Ubaldo's talent.
Usually Jack Moore’s smugness. To wit, this article re Ubaldo’s 5-1 W over the Twins back in June.
I know Gallardo’s arm is going to fall off one of these days (Moore is a Brewers fan), but don’t crap on other team’s star players to make yourself feel better.
that was really short and really awful
your standard issue “lolSABR” “piece”, where he cites a couple of stats that the SABR crowd looks at and ignores an awful lot of the other bits and pieces.
by Andrew Martin on Oct 26, 2010 9:39 AM MDT up reply actions
It makes more sense if you look at it from a fantasy perspective (as Sanders is probably doing). Both EY2 and Iannetta are better fantasy options, if played full time, than their counterparts. Though EY2 is debatable because Nelson should have some power and a decent average.
noted
it was still a pretty awful piece
by Andrew Martin on Oct 26, 2010 9:47 AM MDT up reply actions
haha I like this comment after the article
DrBGiantsfan says:
Whattheheck? Were you drunk when you wrote this?
by purplesocks on Oct 26, 2010 10:06 AM MDT up reply actions
So did we hire Iannetta is own personal hitting coach?
Why would this make any difference toward keeping Olivo? We still need two catchers…..
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
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Paying $2.6 million
for a backup catcher doesn’t make that much sense.
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
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Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.
Agreed
I don’t look at it as starting catcher and backup. I look at it as two starting caliber catchers whose roles change as needed. I think this is smart, and the only reason I dump Olivo’s contract is if Rosario or McKenry are ready to jump into an MLB starter level of performance.
Bleed purple
So, we're back to where we were last off season?
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
But $8.3 million over 3 years
For a guy who annually coughs up the starting job – that’s a good deal?
by Rockpile Interloper on Oct 26, 2010 8:27 AM MDT up reply actions
If the team's
finally willing to commit to him as the starter without having someone stalking over him, yes.
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.
But we don't really know why he wasn't starting at the first of last season.
Tracy isn’t saying. I like Iannetta, don’t get me wrong. I really do think Tracy dislikes the kid for who knows what reasons. Even when Olivo tanked, he still didn’t start Iannetta. Help me understand, Russ….seriously…cause I don’t.
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Iannetta did start at the beginning of the season
He had a few ofers and olivo caught fire and the role changed after two weeks. I have no idea if Tracy is on board with keeping Iannetta over Olivo
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Oct 26, 2010 8:46 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Okay, technically that's true.
Two weeks isn’t very long don’t you think? It’s not like it was September and we were in a pennant race where a hot hand is seemingly more important
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Unless, they are planning on bringing up Rosario?
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Rosario wont be ready to play in games by opening day due to his knee
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Oct 26, 2010 8:59 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Isn't McKenry fine for the backup role?
by black_knight101 on Oct 26, 2010 9:13 AM MDT up reply actions
he should be ready for that role this season, if needed
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Hates Tulo. Loves Galiardi.
SB Nation Denver
The club seems to love having two quality catchers
Which is why I don’t think they will trust McKenry. Maybe if he was tearing it up, but he isn’t. I think they end up keeping both.
Games in April count just as much as games in September as far as standings go
Olivo was incredibly hot at the start of the year. 933 April OPS and 929 May OPS. You can’t fault Tracey for riding him then.
Like you, I agree it was questionable why Tracey kept with Olivo down the stretch although Chris didn’t perform that much better but we all know this. Amart wrote that great piece on the topic a few weeks back.
by purplesocks on Oct 26, 2010 10:13 AM MDT up reply actions
Oh good lord
Maybe they should bring in Corky Miller or Eli Whitside or someone who has “Nothing More than Career Backup” branded into his forehead. Would that give Chris the confidence he needs?
by Rockpile Interloper on Oct 26, 2010 8:50 AM MDT up reply actions
What makes you think Chris is lacking confidence?
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Well JD Closser
is still floating around the Dodgers’ organization. Maybe the Rockies could sign him? Although he might tell Iannetta some scary ghost stories about losing the starting job to Danny Ardoin, and that would foil the whole plan.
by Rockpile Interloper on Oct 26, 2010 8:57 AM MDT up reply actions
Also, this business of not signing Jorge...
does this bode badly that we didn’t re-sign him yet? Reminds me a little bit of the talk before we didn’t resign Torrealbo. Of course Jorge is much more valuable but it sounds very similar…..
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Not necessarily a bad sign.
The Rockies are probably betting on the market for his services not being as robust as Jorge thinks it will be, which is the smart move. Jorge, on the other hand, was probably always going to test the water unless the Rockies came up with something ridiculous (4/$48M).
The one thing that will really help the Rockies here is JDLR's Type A status
Other teams having to pay JDLR and give up a first round draft pick while the Rockies only have to pay him really gives them the inside track.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 9:00 AM MDT up reply actions
On the other hand, JDLR is relatively young and still, presumably, on the upward part of his career arc. A team will likely consider that an acceptable trade off for losing the picks. And, if a team already decided that giving him 4yr/$48M is a good idea they probably aren’t the type to be too concerned with the picks in the first place.
The good news on that front is that the Mets cleaned house
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 9:05 AM MDT up reply actions
They may not be as willing to throw crazy money at any latin player as they have been.
That’s the good news.
Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.
I used to be normal until I met these losers I now call my friends.
"Cheap tacos are rightous!"-My Daughter
I don't think it's a sign of anything
FA’s getting any hype at all very rarely sign before the FA period opens, because their agent would be doing a disservice recommending signing unless the offer is a clear blow-him-away-offer.
So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?
Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?
by Mondogarage on Oct 26, 2010 10:27 AM MDT up reply actions
Question: Who is now the Rockies president?
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
To the best of my knowledge
they have not filled that role, yet.
Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.
I used to be normal until I met these losers I now call my friends.
"Cheap tacos are rightous!"-My Daughter
I like this tidbit from Renck
I am in World Series mode. Not thinking about Cactus League. As Allen Iverson might say, "You’re talking about practice…..’’
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Golly gee.
Don’t expand the playoffs: DON"T DO IT.
I believe in the future, the reality of the present, the sweet memories of the past, living is more than breathing, spring will came if we wait, patiently, believing, hoping. But the winter is long and we must endure its cold. I believe in the future, the reality of what is to come, the sweet memories that are yet to occur, probably, eventually, someday.
And I believe in hope and anticipation: the idea that we’ll meet again, and counting down the days until we do.
I think a 7 game division series is fine
Start it earlier. Have less days off, like the regular season. Another wild card, I have to think about.
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
NOooooooooooooooooooo
the 7 game first round in the NBA and NHL are terrrrrrrrrible. It’s so unnecessary to drag the playoffs out for an extra week or more just to get two games in.
But that's because they have too many days off in between games. And they have 3 rounds of playoffs.
and twice as many teams. I think two more games would make a huge difference in the division. Starting pitching becomes much more interesting, because having a 3 headed monster like we faced at Philly becomes a little less significant.
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Of course, NHL players do need a little more recovery time.
Boxing and playing hockey in one game takes its toll
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
I doubt MLB will agree to fewer days off than already exist
if more games are being played.
I was speaking to an individual round taking an extra week. Every year it seems like there’s a first round series in the NHL or NBA that sets the playoff schedule back a week because it goes 7 and everyone else is done in 4 or 5.
The Phillies can roll Halladay out for games 1 and 4, in your scenario, and only would need one game without one of the big three (game 5).
Death to seven game first rounds.
I'm with you SDC
I hate the 5 game format. For a sport that prides itself so much on the uniqueness and difficulty of making the postseason as compared to the other sports, its almost disgraceful to see a team kill itself for 162 games, spray the champagne, and then get rewarded with 2 weekday day games that half the fans can’t even watch due to work and then hopefully make it to the weekend. No more teams, but hell yeah to 7 game div. series.
Holy crap! you agree with me...
/looks for zombies
Is the apocalypse here?
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
we ain't so different...
or, even if we are, we’ll always have Yorvit.
awww.....good point!
^4
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Not only do I believe that the first round should be 7 games
but I also think that the team with the best record should have games 1,2,5,6, and 7 at home while the Wild Card winner should only have games 3 and 4 at home. In this scenario (borrowing a sweep) the Wild Card team will HAVE to close out the team with the best record on the road.
I want to reward the division winners and make the Wild Card teams face a real uphill climb.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 10:09 AM MDT up reply actions
awful
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Hates Tulo. Loves Galiardi.
SB Nation Denver
No, I don't.
It’s plain awful and not worth my time arguing about.
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Hates Tulo. Loves Galiardi.
SB Nation Denver
Have I angered you somehow?
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 10:19 AM MDT up reply actions
The years of a 95 win WC team in a league with an 83 win division winner pretty much end this argument
So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?
Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?
by Mondogarage on Oct 26, 2010 10:46 AM MDT up reply actions
The 83 win team would NEVER play the 95 win team in the first round
Also, those were in different leagues
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 11:09 AM MDT up reply actions
Sure they could, if an 82 win team won the other division.
And either way, to give the 95 win team only two home games in a 7 game series is ludicrous, to penalize the 2nd best team in its league solely by virtue of its geography.
Muzia was right, this isn’t even worth arguing about.
So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?
Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?
by Mondogarage on Oct 26, 2010 11:16 AM MDT up reply actions
Why isn't it worth discussing? The MLB seems to think it is...
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
This is a totally different argument.
The MLB is discussing going to 7 games. Mondo is talking about RIRF’s proposal of having the WC team only get 2 home games in the series.
I thought the MLB players union is willing to accept another wild card team?
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
That too.
But the discussion was still about RIRF’s proposal about WC teams only getting 2 home games in a 7 game series. MLB would never, ever do that. For good reason.
What I don't understand here
is why everybody is mollycoddling the Wild Card teams. The Wild Card is a loser, it may be the best of the losers but it still lost it’s division. Why shouldn’t a team who had 162 games to win it’s division and failed not have to work a little harder than the team who beat them over those 162 games?
(This is not directed at you Holly, it’s just a general question to the community.)
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 2:16 PM MDT up reply actions
Because the “coddlers” are looking at records. The final standings indicate that the WC is not always a loser; in many cases they are substantially better than at least one other division winner. Also, they likely play in the best division in their league, making the fact that they have a superior record than a division winner that much more impressive.
Same idea, different question:
Why should a WC team that has a superior record to a division winner have to work harder than the division winner with fewer wins, who plays in a weaker division?
Because the first objective of the regular sesaon is to win your division
That’s the way the game is set up. At the start of the season the task is to beat the other three, four or five teams in your divison (whatever the case may be).
If you want to reward a team in the east for having a better record than the division winner in the Central then it defeats the purpose of having divisions in the first place.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 2:47 PM MDT up reply actions
That may be the way you’d like it to be set up, but that is not the way it is set up. It’s set up to reward the best records, sort of, or is halfway between rewarding the best records and the top division winners.
The game is the game, yo.
Yes it is the way it's set up
That’s why MLB allows division winners, regardless of their record, to have the home field advantage over the Wild Card team in the playoffs. That clearly shows that MLB is trying (although failing) to give the division winners an advantage over the Wild Card.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 3:18 PM MDT up reply actions
It's failing because while meant to put the Wild Card teams at a disadvantage they are making it to the World Series as much as any of the other slots
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 3:33 PM MDT up reply actions
Maybe that just means there is not a great disparity
in how good the WC is compared to the division winners.
Also, the degree to which the division winners should be rewarded (or the WC team punished, I guess), is a matter of opinion.
I agree
I don’t think there is much of a difference in talent between the WC and the division winners in general.
I’m saying that the divsion winners are champs and should be rewarded for that and that the WC are just the best of the losers.
You’re also correct in saying that the amount the division winners should be penalized is a matter of opinion. I just think they should be punished more than most.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 3:50 PM MDT up reply actions
Also, wouldn’t this require, in the interest of eliminating the possibility of an 89 win division winner playing a 95 win wild card winner, that division foes face each other?
That’s boring. And unfair to the AL East, or whichever division produced multiple dominant teams.
It would mean rivals face each other more often but wouldn't guarantee it
Quite frankly I think teams from the same division facing each other is a good thing because it helps build rivalries.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 11:29 AM MDT up reply actions
Rivals face each other plenty
18 times a year, unbalanced schedule, yo.
So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?
Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?
by Mondogarage on Oct 26, 2010 11:32 AM MDT up reply actions
But the games don't mean much if the loser has the safty net of the Wild card to fall back on
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 11:42 AM MDT up reply actions
They mean plenty if the WC leader doesn't have a 6 game lead over the next team in the WC chase
So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?
Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?
by Mondogarage on Oct 26, 2010 11:53 AM MDT up reply actions
Look at it this way...
Biggest division 6, smallest division 4 so, to win your division, at most, you have to beat five teams. Average is 4 for all but two divisions. OK, so the AL wildcard team had to beat out 10 teams (14-3 div. winners – themselves) and the NL wildcard has to outlast 12 (16-3-1.) So hardly losers. Add this: Our Rockies have won the wildcard thrice and I;m not gonna sit here while you call them losers! :)
Go Bruce!
Yeah, talk to people from outside the NE corridor
Most of them are pretty sick of the Fox Saturday afternoon and ESPN Sunday night games being the Red Sox-Yankees 15,000 times per summer. The rivalry is interesting, but it gets boring by July.
Even I think it’s irritating, as it’d be better for baseball and everyone if more teams were showcased (not the Pirates or Royals, but more good teams).
That's why we need to create more rivals
Make teams have to fight for their supper by forcing them to win their division.
The Red Sox Yankee rivalry really took off (at least this version of it anyway) when they as two teams from the same division had to bttle in the ALCS in back to back seasons
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 11:44 AM MDT up reply actions
But what happens when one division monopolizes the WC? Then you get more of the same old.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
One division won't
Things go in cycles. At one point the AL West won a bunch of Wild Cards in a row.
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 11:57 AM MDT up reply actions
I know they go in cycles, but that still doesn’t make the disproportionate revenue share any more reasonable. See below about how you argue consistently that the Yankees’ revenue gives them an impossibly unfair advantage in gathering talent and replacing their mistakes. It allows them a greater opportunity to return to the playoffs. Does that thinking not apply to whether they’d disproportionately reap the benefits of your lopsided revenue arrangement?
So, your argument is:
1) Make the first round 7 games, because 7 games is significantly less fluky than 4, and lessens the impact of a Cliff Lee.
2) Make the WC play the team with the next best record, regardless of whether they come from the same division, and let the WC’s opponent host 5 of the games because that would make the WC/Divison winner race meaningful.
If that correctly encapsulates your argument, I… You spend a significant amount of time complaining about the unfair revenue advantage the Yankees have, and then you want to set up a scenario where it’s possible that they could take 5/7 of the revenue while the Rays get 2/7. Meanwhile, an 84 game winner could be battling it out with an 83 game winner in the other series that no one outside of the host cities would watch. And a team should be punished, and fans subjected to an even longer wait (MLB will only add or sustain the current extra days off if you put more games into the post-season) for playoff series that they don’t care about to finish so that they can watch the WS.
The Rays would get 5/7
They won the division.
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 12:11 PM MDT up reply actions
Right, but that doesn’t make it right. This WC opponent hosts 5 games scheme is completely contrary to everything else RIRF has argued about revenue.
When it comes to the playoff I want to reward the teams who won their division
I want winning the division to mean something becasue I don’t think it means much now (as long as you win the wild card)
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 2:18 PM MDT up reply actions
So you want to reward the losers?
If a division winner has fewer wins than the WC, they are losers. They are also deserving of scorn because they played more of their games against weaker competition and failed to win as many games as the WC.
I'm sorry I have yet to see a banner proclaiming the success a team had becasuse they won more games than another divison winner
Yet the Dodgers still have one for that 84 win division title in 2008. The “winners” are the teams who WIN their division and the “losers” are the teams who don’t win their division.
I’m not arguing that the six division winners are the six best teams, however they were the six winners and I believe they need to be rewarded for that.
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 2:52 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm pretty sure there are banners for Wild Card appearances
Just because a team chooses not to put an addendum on it that reads, “Finished with better record than [1 or 2] division winner[s]” does not mean that the WC winner didn’t, in fact, do better than someone who won their division with fewer wins than the WC.
Do you dispute that the Dodgers’ division championship is even further diminished because they had 6 fewer wins than the WC Brewers?
I think this is the crux of our disagreement
While I don’t think that the 08 Dodger team was very good, I still look at them as winners becasue they won the West. Yes the Brewers were better but I don’t think that means they should be rewarded for that.
If you want to reward the teams that won the most games, strip away the divisions altogether.
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 3:25 PM MDT up reply actions
I look at them as shaming the NL West. There were 5 other teams with better records than the Dodgers.
If the goal is just to win your division, why do teams play any games against opponents outside of their division?
Because you win your division by winning more games than any of the other teams in your division
Not necessarily against them.
(Also because MLB can make more money)
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 3:36 PM MDT up reply actions
That still doesn’t answer the question that if the goal is to be the best in your division:
why do teams play any games against opponents outside of their division?
For instance, if the goal was truly to be the best in your division then the division should be determined by your record against division teams only, and records against the rest of the league could be only for seeding purposes come playoff time
Becasuse to be the best in your division you have to prove yourself against different opponents
show that you can survive long road trips across the country as well as play well against others in your division.
This ensures that the team who wins the division is not one dimentional (that it can’t only beat teams in it’s own division).
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 3:55 PM MDT up reply actions
You explanation is inherently contradictory and self-defeating.
To prove it is the best team among the teams in its own division, a team must go outside the division and play teams from other divisions that have nothing to do with that team’s division?
As opposed to say, playing and beating the teams that comprise the division by which you are judging success?
You can't take a road trip across the country unless you go outside of the division
You can’t prove that you can be success agaisnt a huge variity of pitchers and lineups unless you go outside of the division.
Forcing teams to go outside the division makes them battle tested.
(Also, MLB making more money is still a huge factor here)
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 4:04 PM MDT up reply actions
There will never a a season where one division winner wins 83 games and another only wins 82 games
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 11:27 AM MDT up reply actions
This statement is mathematically untrue.
Show your work.
The likelihood of it happening is extremely small.
As was the likelihood of the Tampa Bay Rays ever being good enough to be a .500 club, much less make it to a World Series.
So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?
Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?
by Mondogarage on Oct 26, 2010 11:33 AM MDT up reply actions
I dunno
despite being completely unrealistic in terms of ever happening, the point of the wildcard is to ensure that a team that is really, really good but plays in a division with a great team is not squeezed out at the expense of some 82 game winning division champ. I’m not sure how your method really rewards the right team.
In my scenario the team with the best record would play the Wild Card team
The team with the best record in the league is being rewarded and the team that failed to win it’s division is being penalized
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 10:21 AM MDT up reply actions
In your scenario, it's the Yankees/Rays fault they play in BY FAR the best division in baseball
if two teams share a division, and both have the two best records in the League, they get screwed.
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Hates Tulo. Loves Galiardi.
SB Nation Denver
That's exactly my issue
In that instance, the WC team is doubly screwed. RIRF obviously sees the WC as more of a gimmick whereas I see it as a “catch-all” to protect against division imbalance. (and even if it is a gimmick, its a good one. Hail 2007)
by Teekalong on Oct 26, 2010 10:27 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I like the wild card
My issue is makes winning your division meaningless (as long as you win the wild card) I want teams fighting like hell to win their division (especially division rivals) instead of the crap we saw the Yankees and Rays pull down the stretch. That’s bad for baseball.
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 11:18 AM MDT up reply actions
your issue should be that the AL Central was sooooo bad that teams were tanking to try and play their champ.
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Hates Tulo. Loves Galiardi.
SB Nation Denver
You are simultaneously arguing that home field advantage matters (reward division winners, punish WC winners) and that it doesn’t matter (teams don’t bother to fight hard for the division). That’s inconsistent.
It matters in my scenario becasue of revenue
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 11:45 AM MDT up reply actions
That just absolutely F's teams like the Rays
and Rangers, for that matter. The Rangers might have been able to re-sign Lee due to the new TV contract, but with the revenue generated from this run, they’ll definitely have money to make a real bid on him.
Dude, the Rays won the division and the Yankees were the Wild Card
This means that the Rays and Rangers would have had the extra revenue and more home games regardless of who faced the Yankees in the second round.
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 12:00 PM MDT up reply actions
The Yankees have only won that division once in the last four years
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 12:12 PM MDT up reply actions
You’re talking about one and four year samples, and in the four year sample, the Y or RS won it twice. The Rays also only won the division by a game this year, which means that a number of things could have broken differently and the Y would have won it.
How about going back to the beginning of the WC? In the 16 years of Wild Card play, the Y or RS have won the division 13 of 16 years. And the non-small market Orioles won it once. So… who does that benefit?
I saw no evidence the Yanks or Ray were coasting or "pulling crap" down the strectch
That race went down to the last day.
Go Bruce!
They were resting people all over the place and both teams lost a bunch of games down the stretch
It seemed like the Yankees’ pitching got bombarded every night while Tampa got shut out every night. It was really ugly.
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 8:28 PM MDT up reply actions
You're assuming that even in the pre LCS days
Teams didn’t rest their key players in the days leading up to the World Series when they had big leads in their league.
So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?
Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?
I think the fans are the ones who got screwed
If the two best teams in the AL were in the same division (as we both believe they were) I want to see them have to battle against one another at some point. However, because there is really no difference between having the best record and winning the wild card, the Yankees and Rays both halfassed it down the stretch becasue they didn’t really care if they won the division. Once Cliff Lee came into the picture and shut down Tampa twice in five games Tampa was out and we never got to see the two two teams with the two best records battle.
As a fan I feel robbed of that.
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 11:16 AM MDT up reply actions
I think the best team won.
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Hates Tulo. Loves Galiardi.
SB Nation Denver
In a short series I agree
Over the course of the 162 game season I don’t think Texas was as good
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 11:46 AM MDT up reply actions
Why does that matter? You're talking playoffs to determine championship
regular season just determines seeding
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Hates Tulo. Loves Galiardi.
SB Nation Denver
Exactly
If we’re going to play around with the playoffs and cook up scenarios where the “best” team from the regular season gets so many advantages they can hardly lose a series, why bother with the playoffs? Let’s just go back to putting the team with the best record from each league in the Series and call it good.
I’m sure right now we’re all feeling terrible pangs of regret that we aren’t watching the Rays and Phillies tomorrow night…
We're trying to win a (#)(*@$%#)@#&$#)^ argument here!!!!
Bazinga!!
SD Cat 09 is still awesome
by Junction Rox on Oct 26, 2010 11:51 AM MDT up reply actions
It's not about right now
It’s about the Rays games meaning nothing the last week of the season when we culd have had a nice rivalry develop between the Yankees and Rays. (Well, we could have if Rays fans actually existed)
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 12:05 PM MDT up reply actions
Stands at the Trop looked pretty full...
And again the battle went down to the last day…no evidence of dogging it on either team’s part.
Go Bruce!
Neither team went full throttle
and Giradi even admitted the Yankees were not going to push guys on New York radio.
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 8:30 PM MDT up reply actions
I want teams to always have something to battle for
Just being in the playoff should not mean you coast to the finish line. Nobody wants to see that out of the best teams
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 12:03 PM MDT up reply actions
so how would you "fix" the Mariners team that won 116 so they have something to play for?
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Hates Tulo. Loves Galiardi.
SB Nation Denver
That would be an exception
I hope people would just want to watch that for the historical value
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 12:13 PM MDT up reply actions
why not try and fix them too, handicap them
your whole plan is devised to screw the Yankees. End of story.
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Hates Tulo. Loves Galiardi.
SB Nation Denver
That's not true
If we wanted to screw the Yankees we could organize the divisiond by payroll :-)
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 12:23 PM MDT up reply actions
Which still wouldn’t screw them since payroll does not equal wins.
And they already play with the RS, the Blue Jays aren’t on the discount rack, and the Orioles are fully capable of moving up to a top ten payroll if they ever get the talent in place at one time.
You guys are funny
If you want it to be FAIR then what you need to have is one division with 30 teams in it, each of whom play each other tha same number of times. Then you can choose what playoff to have on the basis of a fair final table.
Arguing the intricacies of the playoff system when the division system is so massively unfair (6 teams in one division! 4 in another! Baltimore and Toronto never able to win anything ever!) is like polishing a turd.
The divisional structure is a practical necessity for a sport with teams across the country. A more balanced schedule would be delightful, however, and many many people agree on that (though not that the balance should extend between the AL and NL).
The 30 team division where everyone plays each other equally is not any more fair since it favors teams located in metropolitan corridors like California or the NE United States, who would do much less traveling than a team like the Rockies, whose nearest opponent would be 605 mi away (KC, MO).
I don’t think there really is such a thing as “fairness” in a sport where everything is determined by a series of commissioners with different priorities and concerns. I just want to see as little tinkering as possible to the things that are best about baseball, like its playoff structure.
In practice I don't think what I've suggested is at all feasible
It was just to demonstrate than in such a wildly unfair structure, arguing about the tiny things is pretty much pointless.
I do maintain, though, that all divisions need to be 5 teams, and I think the AL/NL divide is tradition over common sense. But that’s just me.
Your opinion is your opinion, but I’m not sure what your point is about two sides arguing the intricacies of a playoff structure when both are aware that the structure is part of a larger system that was designed with insurmountable inequities. There has to be some structure in order to have a league, and that structure is likely to favor some in some ways and hurt others in other ways.
If that’s accepted, and people then agree that the current structure is generally fine save for some minor alterations (or without those minor alterations), then it’s legitimate to argue.
It’s not as if everyone’s blind to the peculiarities, but it’s sports so it doesn’t need to be deconstructed to the absurd.
There are not two more cities that can support major league clubs
So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?
Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?
I'm very skeptical about
Salt Lake, Vancouver and Charlotte
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Oct 28, 2010 12:08 AM MDT up reply actions
All of this just amplifies my hate of the wild card...
Make another division and the team win something. This second place winner crap chaps my hide
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
I can appreciate what you’re saying, but wouldn’t it also chap your hide if three teams that won between 82-88 games made the playoffs, and the team that finished second to the best team in the league won 93 games but did not make the playoffs?
No it wouldn't because they got beat!
No matter how you arrange a play off system; someone unfairly gets excluded. You can expand the playoffs to the ridiculous like Nascar, NBA, NHL etc and the best team may not even make the finals. Basket ball season ends for me after the final 4 is done. The NBA playoff system turns me off that much.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
True.
It was that way until 1969, and then, to a lesser extreme, from 1969 until ’93.
I have no idea if Brooklyn sportswriters advocated for a bigger playoff system after Bobby Thompson hit his HR, but there was definitely no extra thread given to the Dodgers. Which, apparently, was pretty exciting to people.
Actually...
The Jays won two World Series’ in a row (’92 and ’93) and the Orioles were once a powerhouse.
Go Bruce!
I can't win
You think I’m trying to screw the Yankees and deacs thinks my idea will give them a bigger advantage.
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 2:22 PM MDT up reply actions
Also, why does a dominant starter need to be neutralized?
It’s precisely because Lee pitches two of five games in a series that brings his lore to new heights. In a seven game series, you’d just see more of the crappy starters.
Becasue this isn't basketball where you only need a couple of players to be great
You need a deep team
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Are the Rangers not a deep team?
Or, are the Phillies not a deep team?
And, I disagree that you need a deep rotation. You don’t. Your one and two starters can go 5 of the 7 games if needed, so your 4th and 5th starters don’t really matter for dick.
Not if we switch to the almighty
11 game series!!
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Cliff Lee never throws on short rest.
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Yes, but if it isn't Cliff Lee
we could talk about Halladay or Sabathia or Schilling or Johnson or whoever.
Exactly
So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?
Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?
by Mondogarage on Oct 26, 2010 12:33 PM MDT up reply actions
What Ubaldo?
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
never heard of him
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Believe it or not, I know of another person named Ubaldo
So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?
Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?
Well pooh, leaving out on stupid word makes all the difference
What ABOUT Ubaldo?
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
At least in the seven game series you need two great starters instead of one though
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 2:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Or, with days off, you'd see Lee three times
Games 1, 4, 7, yo.
The history of WS is rife with ace starters who have pitched in three games.
This who thing is a solution seeking a problem.
So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?
Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?
by Mondogarage on Oct 26, 2010 12:32 PM MDT up reply actions
90 wins isn't good in the AL West...?
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Oh it is
I just don’t think they were as good over the course of the season as the Rays and Yankees
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 12:05 PM MDT up reply actions
cancel the playoffs
the best record in baseball is the best team.
by Andrew Martin on Oct 26, 2010 12:42 PM MDT up reply actions
That's not what I'm saying at all
i just think that the teams that win the regular season should have an inside track to the World Series. I believe they have earned that by being the best over 162 games.
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 2:25 PM MDT up reply actions
So, what, a bye week then? Make the WC play with a 20-man roster with injury allowances?
by Andrew Martin on Oct 26, 2010 6:09 PM MDT up reply actions
I say all postseason rosters should be 30 man
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
I want the Wild Card team to be penilized
I’ve brought up the two best wild card teams having to play each other before as one idea and now I suggested to give them fewer home games in the first round of the postseason.
The disagreement I am having with everyone is that I think the teams who win the division need to be rewarded more while the wild card team needs to be penalized more.
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 8:40 PM MDT up reply actions
I see what you're getting at
but I don’t find this particularly cogent.
I also don’t think there is any remedy to this as it just seems more dependent upon yearly variation. It just so happens to be that the two best teams are in the same division currently – that can change.
Also, the Yankees and Rays maybe half-assed it because they were safe. However, a team like Texas ran away with their division – they too probably half-assed it.
Additionally, by having the two best teams in the same division, while we don’t get to see them fight it out in the playoffs, we do get to see them face each other 18 times during the regular season.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
18 times yes but the importance of those games are severly diminshed by the Wild Card
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 11:47 AM MDT up reply actions
Only if the wildcard is guaranteed to come out of the same division
which really only applies to the AL East since they tend to produce the two best teams typically – though not always.
I really don’t think this is even a problem at all in the National League.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
One of the reasons that there is little difference between WC and a division winner is because home field advantage means relatively little in baseball compared to other major sports.
So, what really ends up happening is that the WC team and city gets screwed out of revenue by only hosting one or two games (depending on the length of the series).
All the more reason to fight to win your division then
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 11:46 AM MDT up reply actions
No it doesn't
A small market team who had the best record like the Rays would get more revenue this way.
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 12:06 PM MDT up reply actions
According to your own logic re the advantage given by larger revenue streams, the Rays winning the division this year was an outlier. Teams with larger revenue streams will, again according to logic that you’ve espoused, give those teams a disproportionately better chance of winning the division, which would also give them a disproportionate share of the revenue from the first round.
Also, does the WC get punished if they advance to to the LCS?
The Yankees would get it more often but it would mean less to them becasue their payroll is already enormous
It would help a team like the Rays much much more when they did get it even if they get it less often.
As far as the LCS goes I’m fine either way one we get to that point
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 12:20 PM MDT up reply actions
Holy cow.
When the Yankees get more money, someone else is getting less. That means if the Rays are good enough to make the playoffs, and be better than the other two division winners, they get screwed because your system gives that money to the Yankees.
In order to give money, you have to take money from somewhere else.
NO
Right now the Yankees Payroll is three times as big as the Rays. If I give the Yankees 2/3 of the next 100 million then I have closed the gap percentage wise because I have introduced a more balanced revenue stream (although still not equal) into the picture.
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions
It's not the problem of the World Series to fix owners' revenue disparity
So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?
Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?
by Mondogarage on Oct 26, 2010 12:35 PM MDT up reply actions
Honestly, I have no idea what you mean by this:
If I give the Yankees 2/3 of the next 100 million then I have closed the gap percentage wise
I’m not going to get into a revenue squabble, particularly since the history of the AL since the WC suggests that there is a high probability of the division and WC coming from the AL East, with the division winner being a high revenue team. The caveat that domination or periods of greatness is cyclical is one that you always knock down as inferior to the strength of a high payroll.
Since the division winner generally seems to be the Yankees, and the WC goes to the second place team, your suggestions sets up a scenario that is antithetical to your concerns about the high revenue teams.
Even if it only happens once in the next hundred years, your plan will needlessly punish a low-revenue 90+ game WC winner by limiting their playoff revenue intake, and that’s unacceptable.
But both the Rays and Rangers won their divisions...
Your scenario would not have stopped Cliff Lee from shutting down the Rays in two games. You could play the Lee (or Halladay) cards to justify a 7-game DS but not your 5/2 argument.
Go Bruce!
I think you're right :-)
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by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 11:19 AM MDT up reply actions
Could you explain why you think the first round should be seven games?
Is there a significant additional benefit to the fans, or to the teams, if it goes seven games? Is seven games significantly less fluky than a five game series?
I think the seven game series is much less fluky than the five game series
Look at each of the last two seasons. Both the Rockies and Rays got screwed by having to face Cliff Lee twice in a five game series. That means Cliff Lee on normal rest represents nearly 50% of a team’s rotation when during the regular season he represents 20%. In a seven game series the only way a team could start a dominant ace like Lee three times is if they did it on short rest twice.
I just think a seven game series reflects who a team is much more than a five game series because it makes the rotation less top heavy.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 11:24 AM MDT up reply actions
That doesn’t hold water. During the regular season, teams play 2, 3 or 4 game series. Therefore, a particular starter may represent 25-50% of the rotation depending on the schedule. Also, because the schedule is not set up in a way that each team plays each other a number of times that corresponds equally to the rotation, a team may face the 1 or 2 starter 50-57% of the time (in the 7-8 games between non-divisional opponents).
And in a seven game series, the best starter can still go three times. In order for there to be seven games in the first round, the schedule will probably allow for enough games that the best starter will almost certainly go three times. 2/5 or 3/7. Not much difference.
During the season teams have to use a five man rotation
Who you get there is mostly luck and will even out (for the most part) over a 162 game season.
And if a team want to start a guy on short rest twice in a 7 game series (games 1, 4, and 7) I have no problem with that. It’s not nearly the same as having to face a guy twice on full rest in the regular season.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 11:53 AM MDT up reply actions
How else should the playoffs be handicapped to prevent a dominating player from too greatly influencing
from too greatly influencing the outcome of a series?
I don't think this is meant as a handicap
It’s meant to get reward teams in the post season the same way team’s are awarded in the regular season. In the regular season, having 5 very good but not dominating starting pitchers is definitely a good thing. In the post season with a 5 game series, not so much. The 5th guy will probably only pitch in long relief, and the 4th guy might pitch once. The advantage of having a deep rotation is much less in a 5 game series than a 7 game. A 7 game series gives that 4th guy a much better shot at helping his team. If your 4th starter is much better than your opponent’s 4th starter, your opponent will have to decide to pitch their #1 on short rest or have the large pitching disadvantage. Obviously, rotations don’t always line up perfectly in the playoffs, but 7 games should should still give some help to those deeper rotations in a similar way the regular season does.
On a side note, taking your argument to the extreme, why don’t we have 5 days rest between every game so the dominating player can pitch every game of the series on normal and have a much greater influence on its outcome?
I'm fine with the latter part of your suggestion
It would produce some very, very interesting baseball games, though I have no idea how you deduce that as the logical extreme of my argument.
Also, you and RIRF both miss something quite obvious:
In a 5 game series, the best starter goes twice. The team needs only one other win from its 2-4 starters.
In a 7 game series, the best starter goes thrice. The team needs only one other win from its 2-4 starters.
The margin is the same, either way you cut it, so assuming the best starter is unbeatable, his influence is not curbed.
It's not the same because the best starter going three times goes twice on short rest
The short rest is the game changer and also pumps more stategy into the series becasue now the managere has a crucial decision to make.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 2:30 PM MDT up reply actions
Going once on short rest is a game changer? In a seven game series, the best starter will only have to go once on short rest (probably game 4). It also already happens in the later rounds, and managers don’t seem to give much thought to not using their best starter three times if the series goes 7 games.
Not sure how a common occurrence is a game changer.
The ace will have to go on short rest twice
Day 1: Game 1 (Ace pitches)
Day 2: Game 2
Day 3: Off Day
Day 4: Game 3
Day 5: Game 4 (Ace pitches on short rest)
Day 6: Game 5
Day 7: Off Day
Day 8: Game 6
Day 9: Game 7 (Ace pitches on double short rest)
The seven game series is much harder to control than the five game series with one outstanding pitcher because A: going on short rest is not as easy and B: you give the opponent an extra chance to beat the ace.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 2:59 PM MDT up reply actions
My bad, you’re right about the scheduling.
Still, there is nothing abnormal about a pitcher going on three days rest in the playoffs. Teams anticipate that, and Cliff Lee is the exception to pitching on short rest, not the rule.
So, still not conceding the point that pitching on short rest is not a “game changer.”
If it's not harder to pitch on short rest then how come pitchers don't do it all season long?
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 3:28 PM MDT up reply actions
They could!
And many people advocate a return to 4 man rotations.
And, in many cases during a close race in August and September, or when injuries destroy a pitching staff, the best pitcher will pitch on short rest.
Who are "many people"?
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 3:37 PM MDT up reply actions
David Pinto
He advocates it constantly on Baseball Musings, as well as some of the Fangraphs people, and… I’m having trouble coming up with a comprehensive list of people I’ve read who have advocated returning to a 4 man rotation, but I’d be happy to do a Google search and provide evidence of the plethora of people who think the idea is fine and safe.
But by and large anymore a 5 man rotation
and limiting pitch counts is still the norm.
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
It is the recent norm. Recent as in within 20 years. There is no consensus on whether a pitcher can throw 120+ every game, just that a pitcher who hasn’t been trained to throw 120+ every time should not be throwing 120+ with any regularity.
Nolan Ryan’s philosophy for Rangers’ minor league pitching is an example of a potential reversal in the trend.
It will be interesting to see how long it takes
before he has a stable full of Strasburgs’
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
I'm just saying good luck..
I’m not sure what I think of this
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
And it doesn’t matter how many people advocate for it during the regular season because it is the norm during the post-season.
It's really not the norm
The Rangers won’t do it with Lee
The Yankees didn’t do it with Sabathia (this season)
The Giants didn’t do it with Lincecum
The Phils didn’t do it with Halladay
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 3:58 PM MDT up reply actions
No it's not
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 4:05 PM MDT up reply actions
Turns out you're right about that.
But it’s still not rare.
Even still, the idea of expanding to 7 games expressly to punish a team for having a dominant ace is entirely punitive and arbitrary to me.
This isn't the only reason.
It would just make it a better series. Limit days off, start everything earlier and barring bad weather you’re done by November…:)
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
I can't say this enough
There is no way that MLB would complete three seven game series by October 31.
You absolutely cannot add two games to the schedule and expect that, without some major, major changes in Selig’s thinking and the broadcasters’ schedules.
A seven game series is fine, until it ends up being like the NBA and NHL and then the season lasts a month longer than it should.
Why do you think there is NO WAY
they will do this? And it’s never going to be like the NBA and the NHL. I don’t know why you say this…
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
It’s not going to be like the nba or nhl in terms of number of rounds, but it will feel unnecessarily long like the nhl or nba because even if the current seven game mlb series schedule is used, it will add at least three extra days, maybe up to five depending on how much time between series. The playoffs run too long as it is, and that’s after Selig eliminated some gratuitous days off.
The only way that I can see to make the post season shorter is have day games on travel days, travel at night, and then play the next night, or not wait for both ds to finish before starting the lcs and don’t wait for the lcs to finish before starting the ws
by deacs on Oct 26, 2010 5:47 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm not trying to punish those teams
I just don’t want it to be the end all be all. Pitching depth should play into it as well.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 8:43 PM MDT up reply actions
This I do agree with...
Plus, If they were to eliminate one of those days off, you would have to win with a deeper staff. I’m in favor of that.
Go Bruce!
You were implying that RIRF wants to handicap teams with 1 dominant SP
Allowing that dominant SP to pitch every game of a series is the opposite of handicapping those teams. It wasn’t meant as a reply to your overall argument, just that last post.
That’s still not the logical extreme, as I never advocated for giving an advantage to the ace. We have a status quo, the current playoff system, which is neutral in this context. I was advocating for keeping that, not for maximizing the advantage of having the best pitcher in the series.
I’m just saying that a 5 game series does give an advantage to the team with the shallow pitching staff with one dominant starter, and you don’t feel there’s much difference between a 5 game series and a 7. Taking that advantage to the extreme would be to give that dominant starter the option to pitch every game. I guess I just took my perception of your argument to the extreme, instead of just your argument. I’m not sure if that made any sense, but I think I understand it.
And the pic is of the Gore Range in East Vail. I figured a pic of the Colorado Rockies would be apropos.
So what, until not too many years ago, the first round was 2 out of 3
The World Series used to be 9 games.
So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?
Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?
by Mondogarage on Oct 26, 2010 11:35 AM MDT up reply actions
absolutely.
We should have less off days between the games: as much as I want it to last, baseball in November is ridiculous.
I believe in the future, the reality of the present, the sweet memories of the past, living is more than breathing, spring will came if we wait, patiently, believing, hoping. But the winter is long and we must endure its cold. I believe in the future, the reality of what is to come, the sweet memories that are yet to occur, probably, eventually, someday.
And I believe in hope and anticipation: the idea that we’ll meet again, and counting down the days until we do.
by prettyinpurple on Oct 26, 2010 11:44 AM MDT up reply actions
So, limit the days off. There is no reason the WS MUST START on a Wednesday
except Fox says so. The WS could have started on Monday. Give teams 2 days for travel and rest.
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
MLB absolutely will not limit the days off if you add games to the playoffs.
They just will not do it because they build it around the broadcasters’ schedule, and because of the competitive disadvantage.
The arrangement might stay the same (still making the playoffs 3-5 days longer), but equally likely additional time between the games at the end of series will be given or more time after the first round will be given (thus pushing the playoffs an additional 5-7 days).
True...
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
although no one in Dallas cares about the Cowboys currently
They are all about the Rangers right now..:)
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
This!
I loath the Cowboys more than any team in professional sports!
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
I 'd watch no matter what
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 11:54 AM MDT up reply actions
At least you wouldn't get nailed by having to face a dominant ace twice though
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 11:54 AM MDT up reply actions
I wouldn't mind 7 game division series'
More baseball to watch (without really extending the playoffs), more incentive for teams to make the playoffs as there’s more revenue to be had. Also, with a lot of the shitty umpiring going on, losing a game that way in a 3 game set seems soo brutal.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
This...I was going to include that as one of my arguments..but thought I'd get lambasted
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
The shitty umpiring is not a reason to further lengthen the season
It’s an extremely valid reason to terminate shitty umpires and eliminate the virtual lifetime tenure of umpire jobs.
So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?
Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?
by Mondogarage on Oct 26, 2010 11:36 AM MDT up reply actions
Or in the case of Hunter Wendelstedt...
several lifetimes. I’m sure his kids and grandkids already have a job waiting for them.
by Rockpile Interloper on Oct 26, 2010 11:45 AM MDT up reply actions
well,
even if they had really, really good umps, there would still be mistakes.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Mistakes, sure
But there’s a difference between a mistake and a cataclysmically horrible call that changes the outcome of a game or a season.
There’s been a relative rash of the latter over the last five years.
So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?
Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?
I think I sort of did
but to me it just seems cheap. Baseball has the longest season imagineable, then we turn around and jam the first round down everyone’s throats so fast its dizzying. What’s the damn rush? Sure, the NBA drags out so long, but that’s the nature of that sport — the playoffs are the show. I love baseball’s long reg season, but even then I’d much rather they cut the season by 10 games (I know, not happening) if playing into Nov is the concern. In any event, its purely my preference. I’m not going to cry about 5 game series.
I should sue MLB for copying my idea with the Wild Cards :-)
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 9:04 AM MDT up reply actions
I think you should!!
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
I would but I want the one game playoff between the Wild Card teams :-)
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 10:10 AM MDT up reply actions
for those of you with xm radio
Bob Apodaca will be on Power Alley with Jim Memolo and Kevin Kennedy at 12:05pmEST/9:05amPST
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Oct 26, 2010 8:57 AM MDT via mobile reply actions
dunno
I have xm in my truck, but its not functioning. Plus, I was still in bed then
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Oct 26, 2010 10:51 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I really hope
O’Dowd keeps up his streak of awesome trades as it is looking less and less likely that we make a big signing.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
FA hasn't even started yet...
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Hates Tulo. Loves Galiardi.
SB Nation Denver
I really hope
O’Dowd keeps up his streak of awesome trades as I’m starting to get the impression that it may be more difficult than I originally anticipated to make a big signing.
Happy?
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
ah, yes. Carry on. :D
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Hates Tulo. Loves Galiardi.
SB Nation Denver
JDLR
I just read that he wants a 4-5 year deal. If the Rockies sign him to a 4-5 year deal in the $40-55mm range, I can’t wait to read what Purplerow thinks of that. Big if, I know.
raygu
www.faketeams.com
www.sbnation.com
I think he should take less money
annually if he wants a deal that long.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
I think the Rockies will terribly regret giving him anywhere near 5/50
Remember, this is still a pitcher who’s never had a single 200 inning season, or even a single complete 162 game season of effective pitching.
No way do I go over 4/38 at absolute max. Really uncomfortable with anything longer than three years, but would do four at a lower average value. Won’t do over $30m for a three year deal.
So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?
Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?
by Mondogarage on Oct 26, 2010 10:49 AM MDT up reply actions
Oh Stewie, you were so close
IStewart9 Back in Cali visiting the fam
One more letter in “fam” and you would have won some support on PR.
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Hates Tulo. Loves Galiardi.
SB Nation Denver
by Muzia on Oct 26, 2010 11:42 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Hope he enjoyed Maui
Time to start working…
Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.
I used to be normal until I met these losers I now call my friends.
"Cheap tacos are rightous!"-My Daughter
He was is Hawaii???
I believe in the future, the reality of the present, the sweet memories of the past, living is more than breathing, spring will came if we wait, patiently, believing, hoping. But the winter is long and we must endure its cold. I believe in the future, the reality of what is to come, the sweet memories that are yet to occur, probably, eventually, someday.
And I believe in hope and anticipation: the idea that we’ll meet again, and counting down the days until we do.
by prettyinpurple on Oct 26, 2010 11:52 AM MDT up reply actions
*in
I believe in the future, the reality of the present, the sweet memories of the past, living is more than breathing, spring will came if we wait, patiently, believing, hoping. But the winter is long and we must endure its cold. I believe in the future, the reality of what is to come, the sweet memories that are yet to occur, probably, eventually, someday.
And I believe in hope and anticipation: the idea that we’ll meet again, and counting down the days until we do.
by prettyinpurple on Oct 26, 2010 11:52 AM MDT up reply actions
Yep
Ignorance of the American League is a sign of good moral character.
I used to be normal until I met these losers I now call my friends.
"Cheap tacos are rightous!"-My Daughter
wow, thanks.
man, hawaii.
I believe in the future, the reality of the present, the sweet memories of the past, living is more than breathing, spring will came if we wait, patiently, believing, hoping. But the winter is long and we must endure its cold. I believe in the future, the reality of what is to come, the sweet memories that are yet to occur, probably, eventually, someday.
And I believe in hope and anticipation: the idea that we’ll meet again, and counting down the days until we do.
by prettyinpurple on Oct 26, 2010 12:09 PM MDT up reply actions
WHY ISN'T HE DEAD YET
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
Well, that part will come. Apparently he lives in Windsor now...
Score a goal. Unit. Basket. Go squadron! Do good! Defeat the opponents soundly in this...skirmish.
Seriously?
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
No.
Score a goal. Unit. Basket. Go squadron! Do good! Defeat the opponents soundly in this...skirmish.
It took me way too long to figure out what the four letter word you were referring to was.
Thus proving why I suck at Scrabble
i have a ? 4 purple row
what due you guys& gals think of adrian beltre @ 3rd base for the rockies?
I think he's too expensive and blocks Stewart in the most important season of his career
I like the player though.
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Hates Tulo. Loves Galiardi.
SB Nation Denver
Yay
We agree on something
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 11:56 AM MDT up reply actions
I would take him in a heart beat
Moving Stewie to 1B isn’t a bad thing. But, considering he will be getting mvp votes, I can’t see him coming cheap.
I'm staring to really sour on DLR
Yeah, we still need another pitcher for the rotation, but at this point, I feel that DLR is going to be a huge disappointment for what he signs. I would prefer to spend half or a quarter on Westbrook, and use the cash elsewhere. Sign Westbrook and Fuentes, and trade for Willingham.
I can't see what's change. DLR wants a proper payday, he deserves one and he'll get one.
He’s not dicking anyone around, least of all the Rockies. He’s THE best free agent pitcher not playing in the WS, and he would be a massive boon for the club during The Window if they can lock him down.
I guess I keep realizing
That a pitcher who has had such minimal success is not worth his price tag. Especially when that price tag has gone up to the point it is.
I think he has proved himself, though
No-one would argue he had a tricky early career but he’s not that person any more. Very few people would see DLR as a risk nowadays which indicates how far he has genuinely come.
Most people see him as a risk
The massive amounts of comparison to Perez prove it. And I’m going to say that half of 09, and a few stretches from last year are not enough evidence for me to toss a 5/50 contract at.
He's proven himself as worth the risk of a multi-year deal
He’s not proven himself worthy of a 4-5 year deal at #2 starter money.
So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?
Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?
the problem as far as I see it
is that he’s just so close to sucking again. If his walk rate increases a little bit, he’s really going to be all over the place.
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
LH Power pitchers are good to find/ have.
OT you asked for a single metric to explain my like of Herrera. Ask RIRF to explain WPA and how WELL Herrera did by that metric compared to the rest of the team.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
I'm not really sure why you are bringing up Herrera
And in any case, I don’t thing WPA is a very good stat to evaluate a player. It’s very random, and is usually based on the situation of the game, and the role that player has, not on actual talent.
The point is Herrera's talent is how he plays situations....
Bio and I have had a previous discussion about Herrera that he wanted a quantification of by a single metric. Scince I am biased towards Herrera I wanted RIRF to explain it as a neutral party that saw a similar statistical conclusion as I. He can explain the Metric better than I. I saw things in Herrera more the old fashion and not exactly the SABR way.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Yes, I agree that Herrera's talent is his play situationally.
Which is all the more reason why he should be a bench player.
No disagreement
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Well, ok
Not sure why the discussion then. I have never said I didn’t like him, no have asked anyone to prove their like for him. I just feel his talent level is best suited for the bench.
I was making a very belated reply to Biondino
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
if he plays situations well
let’s just use him in situations, and not bother starting him
by Andrew Martin on Oct 26, 2010 7:35 PM MDT up reply actions
Does that mean we play Ianetta only when we want some one to take a walk or swing for the seats? (ducks supersonic number vomit)
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
WPA has shown roughly zero predictive value
which suggests it’s a performance metric, not a skill metric
by Andrew Martin on Oct 26, 2010 7:12 PM MDT up reply actions
On large samples, pretty much
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Oct 28, 2010 12:08 AM MDT up reply actions
I think
this is the thread you are looking for where I defended Herrera using WPA.
Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1
by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 26, 2010 3:31 PM MDT up reply actions
Sign Westbrook and Fuentes
Guh??
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Hates Tulo. Loves Galiardi.
SB Nation Denver
$$$$$$$$
Who knew that Muzia’s love is like a rock tied to your feet, dragging you to the bottom of the ocean?
Hates Tulo. Loves Galiardi.
SB Nation Denver
Considering the market,
I see him being the one guy left behind. The closer market is really stacked.
SAVES
someone will pick him up as a closer
by Andrew Martin on Oct 26, 2010 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions
I see a situation
Where you have a high asking price, a large stock of alternatives, and significant doubt. I can easily see him sitting around in March still waiting.
Yeah, that's what I thought too.
I believe in the future, the reality of the present, the sweet memories of the past, living is more than breathing, spring will came if we wait, patiently, believing, hoping. But the winter is long and we must endure its cold. I believe in the future, the reality of what is to come, the sweet memories that are yet to occur, probably, eventually, someday.
And I believe in hope and anticipation: the idea that we’ll meet again, and counting down the days until we do.
by prettyinpurple on Oct 26, 2010 12:10 PM MDT up reply actions
OMG...Are the Rangers trying to lose the WS? Vlad to start in RF in Game 1 WTF
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
But in RF at ATT park...the corner of doom?
Put him at 1B…I dunno, this just reaks of disaster……
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
I would definitely put Vlad in LF
Rather than RF. He’ll be bad either way, but too much ground for him to cover in right. And while the Giants are a somewhat of a RH-hitting team, guys like Posey and Freddy Sanchez take a lot of balls the opposite way.
Do what the Giants do with Burrell. Put him in LF until the late innings, then get him out of there.
by Rockpile Interloper on Oct 26, 2010 12:28 PM MDT up reply actions
This sounds reasonable.
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Vlad has never played 1 inning in his 15 year career at 1B and you want to throw him there for the first time in the World
I’ll trust Vlad in RF over 1B although I agree that he should be playing in LF over RF
Fine not 1B just not RF ....
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
So...??
he’s their cleanup hitter.
Yeah, my username says it all.
by CentralCaliRox on Oct 26, 2010 12:20 PM MDT up reply actions
I would very much like Josh Willingham on my team.
Score a goal. Unit. Basket. Go squadron! Do good! Defeat the opponents soundly in this...skirmish.
I like the idea of having him on the team in 2011
I just wouldn’t want us to then give him a contract for 3 years after that…
"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker
sounds like he wants an extension
That would buy out two FA years. So the 3 year deal would end in 2013
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Oct 26, 2010 12:59 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Willingham
Now we’re talking.
Yeah, my username says it all.
by CentralCaliRox on Oct 26, 2010 12:20 PM MDT reply actions
willingham is a nice answer for us
Good write up and thoughtful research. lets go do it….
Of course the kicker is….who is it going to cost us? Madison Baumgartner for Willingham is silly crazy.
The Big Purple Machine will make a believer outta you!
I've made this suggestion before...
I’d make a run at the Mets’ Dan Murphy and play him at 2b and back up/replace Todd at 1b. The Mets rushed him like TB rushed Cantu; but he is young enough to fix. I like his line drive bat. He needs to tweak his approach and not worry about carrying the team Like he had to do his one full season. He really is a second baseman who has been forced to play other positions by other injuries on the team and was just starting to settle in as a 1b when he got hurt last year.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
I am not against Nelson....
Murphy is a LH bat too. I just think he kills two birds with one stone short term. I don’t have a clue why they have not played Nelson more unless he reminds them of Jayson Nix or they think he wants to be a RH Stewart or something.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Have you guys seen the 50 most bizarre baseball moments?
I like the one where the little kid that was the son of one of the Giants ran out to homeplate on some sort of kids day. The Giant player was running to homeplate and grabbed the little tyke before he was run over by the player behind him.
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
That was in 2002 when the Giants were in the playoffs (can't remember if it was the WS or before that).
It was Dusty Baker’s son. He was a sort of bat boy. I believe it was JT Snow who executed the clutch and grab.
Ahhh...that was pretty sweet grab and go...
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
It was a whole big controversy at the time.
There may even be a rule now about ages of kids on the dugout that came from that.
That would make sense
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Is this the list
that included the Phillies helping the Coors Field grounds crew get control of the infield tarp in that 2007 windstorm?
I wasn’t at that particular game, and I’m not a Phillies fan at all. But I have to say, that was pretty cool. Bunch of millionaires charging out on the field, grabbing sandbags and helping anchor the tarp.
by Rockpile Interloper on Oct 26, 2010 4:31 PM MDT up reply actions
Yes, same list. I hope it will be updated this season, to include Dex's going over the wall for his glove.
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Me too. Classic!
Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis
Also, that tarp was gonna end up in the stands....
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Yeah it was really shaping up to be
an ugly situation. It wasn’t like the Phillies just ran out there for a photo op. They really, really helped the crew out in a big way.
by Rockpile Interloper on Oct 26, 2010 4:36 PM MDT up reply actions
They were trying to avoid loseing their 10k game by avoiding the rain out weren't they?
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
I just asked Troy Renck on twitter about the "best case scenario" for the offseason.
He said that he isn’t sure about “best case,” but he thinks the most likely case is that:
1. JDLR leaves
2. Rockies trade for a James Shields-level pitcher (hopefully NOT James Shields IMO)
3. Rockies get Mike Napoli.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
What would we want with Napoli?
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
RH power bat to play 1b/C
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
But isn't he like really OLD...(facetious)
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
As in older than you?
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Nice try
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
I like Napoli as a Platoon catcher only.
He hits like Ianetta when he bothers to hit.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Napoli was a great catcher 3 years ago...I like him, but
it just seems like he’s fallen off quite a bit, so much that Mike Scoscia(former catcher) didn’t start him anymore.
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Napoli got overexposed playing both 1b and C last year.
Not his fault but team injuries.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Agreed
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
OT if you are staying in Sand Dog how will we ever have that PR date?
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
I have not made a final decision yet.
Many things pending currently. It’s 50/50 right now…but I haven’t forgotten Foagie :)
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Do what's best for you.
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
When in doubt procrastinate!
"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana
Oh believe me..
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
I'll get right on that
Tomorrow.
So let's just win 12 more games next year, mmmkay?
Will the Gints complain about the non-humidor balls in Citizens Bank Ballpark when they lose there, too?
Well, there are more extenuating circumstances developing....
But thank you Foagie :)
2011 Colorado Zombies--Will rise from beneath homeplate with the shards of a broken season in Tulo's hand!
Brad Hawpe - Thanks Brad, you were a class act.
QPU #4, YHEG #4, Proud Member PR Gynocracy
Honestly though
The very thought of James Shields makes me ill.
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
NAPOLI YES!
Yeah, my username says it all.
by CentralCaliRox on Oct 26, 2010 5:39 PM MDT up reply actions
this is the perfect time to trade for Shields
he’s just had his career low year, he struck out more guys than ever, got dicked a bit by homers and a lot by BABIP, seems like a perfect bounceback candidate
by Andrew Martin on Oct 26, 2010 7:34 PM MDT up reply actions
I see your point
A bounceback year from Shields would be great, but i would think that his career BABIP (.316) numbers would only go up at Coors. A steal if it works, a burden if it doesn’t. Then again, he might be basically free if the Rays eat the remainder of his salary.
Still:
JDLR > Bounceback James Shields
Rocktober is not a time of year, it is a religion.
Renck just mentioned Willingham could fit.
I’m assuming he either saw it hear first or saw PR folks have tweeted him about it.
Not too familiar with Willingham...
but base on his numbers, cost, and where he can play on defense. I think he would indeed be a nice fit for the team
Ubaldo "Iron Arm" Jimenez
Seth Smith’s beard looks on in anticipation.
Zomtober!!!
No one is familiar with WIllingham
He’s spectacularly underrated
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Oct 27, 2010 7:56 AM MDT up reply actions
willingham used to have catcher availability in fantasy a couple of years back
i picked him up halfway into a season when he was in Florida. Thats the only reason i know who he is.
Oh fantasy, you make knowing who the 3rd baseman for the KC Royals is, fun.
The Big Purple Machine will make a believer outta you!
by El Paso Jeff on Oct 27, 2010 8:03 AM MDT up reply actions
He's been the fashionable RH OF choice for a couple years
Luke Scott is the other half of the hip choice platoon.
I'm going to be in Denver this weekend, staying kind of near Coors Field.
I’ve never been there. (I live a 7-hour drive from Denver.) Do they run tours at this time of year? On Saturday afternoons? Would it be worth going? (Worth going more than hanging out at the Tattered Cover for several hours, which is what I normally do if I’m in downtown Denver with hours to kill?)
"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.
Yes, they do.
At noon and 2:00.
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.
And
halfway through this album you’ll see pics from when I took a tour of the place back in June.
"No Mission Too Difficult, No Sacrifice Too Great—Duty First" - 1st Infantry Division Motto
Purple Row - Covering all your Rockies needs!
SB Nation Denver - The regional hub for Denver sports!
Diplomatic and Military History Book Review - My other blog where I go all historical on you.
Your description of that trip is what gave me the idea.
I’ll see what time I get into the city.
"Are they called the Rockies because they rock?" - 7 y.o.
I received an email from someone who claims to be a friend of Willingham's for the last 26 years
He says
Josh is a great player but an even better person. He has great respect for the Rockies organization and the high character guys that they try to attract (Helton, Holliday, Herges, just to name a few that we have discussed). The distance to home that Denver would be wouldn’t be a preference for him, neither would be having to play in San Diego (a pitchers’ park for sure) 19 times a year, but if the Rockies want him and he will play everyday, I am sure he would be fine with playing for such a wonderful organization that is dedicated to winning.
And yes, I did let him know the Rockies only play at Petco nine times
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein
by Andrew T. Fisher on Oct 27, 2010 7:57 AM MDT reply actions






































