Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: NFL Owners Vote to Change Trade Deadline

Auditing the 2010 Colorado Rockies: Second Base

Despite their respectable conventional stats (3rd in the NL in runs, T-2nd in average), the dirty secret of 2010 is that the Colorado Rockies' offense just wasn't very good this year. This is especially true when you look at everyone not named Carlos Gonzalez and Troy Tulowitzki. While CarGo (42.1 weighted runs above average) and Tulo (31.9 wRAA) were studs, the next best offensive player on the Rockies in 2010 was either fifth outfielder Ryan Spilborghs (5.0 wRAA) or utility infielder Melvin Mora (3.1 wRAA). As I wrote two weeks ago, that's not the formula for a playoff team, no matter how good your top two hitters are.

In fact, the position players outside of CarGo and Tulo were 25.9 runs below average (with pitchers included, they were -80.7 wRAA). Even with CarGo and Tulo, the offense was still below average (-6.7 wRAA). In other words, the 2010 Rockies were a two man show on offense. If those two weren't hitting well, by and large the team wasn't winning. To refresh your memory, wRAA is the counting stat batting component of WAR. I explain how it is calculated here

Who was the biggest single culprit for this offensive ineptitude? Anyone who played second base, really. More so even than the Rockies' woeful contributions from first base, Colorado's second sackers dragged the whole team down offensively. When compared to all other MLB second basemen, Colorado's 2B were 23% worse than average (77 sOPS+). The three worst position players in terms of wRAA for the Rockies in 2010 all played the majority of their time at second (Jonathan Herrera -4.7, Eric Young Jr -7.9, Clint Barmes -17.1 -- worst of any Colorado player).

So with that ugly truth in mind, it's time to audit Colorado's second basemen. For those of you who missed it, here is the premise and methodology of this series.

Second Base

Expectations

Second base has long been a problem spot for the Rockies. As such, going into 2010 Rockies fans were not expecting that much from de facto starter Clint Barmes. Barmes had come back from the dead to return to roughly league average status in 2008 (1.9 WAR) and had followed that performance up with a very streaky 2009 that ended up around where 2008 left off (1.7 WAR). Last year Barmes stroked 23 homers and played very good defense (8.7 UZR), so we were somewhat willing to overlook the fact that he was pretty terrible offensively (-14.8 wRAA, .312 wOBA, 80 wRC+).

However, there were certainly calls for Barmes to be replaced by a better player (Orlando Hudson or Kelly Johnson anyone?) and there was plenty of concern when the Rockies' front office talked about a multi-year contract for Barmes during the offseason. After talks broke down, Barmes settled for a one year $3.35 million contract to avoid his second year of arbitration.

Most fans were probably hoping for Barmes' power surge and great defense to continue, but they probably knew that he was due for some offensive regression.

As for other players, Melvin Mora was brought in to back up Barmes at 2nd and 3rd base. Expectations were low for the 38 year-old reserve, though he had proven to be a valuable player in the past. Since Mora didn't actually play much at second this year, I'll only touch briefly on him today.

Meanwhile, Eric Young Jr. had shown off his speed in a September callup in 2009 and was expected to play a role off the bench when he was called up. Jonathan Herrera was completely off the radar, as well he should have been given his pathetic 39 wRC+ in 66 PAs in 2008. Chris Nelson was a former first round pick coming off an injury-shortened 2009 and was trying to prove himself in his first season at AAA Colorado Springs.

Star-divide

Results

Well, let's just say that it was a tough year for Clint Barmes. Barmes not only had to deal with the tough mental burden of an ailing father, he also wasn't hitting the baseball well. Barmes started off with a sOPS+ of 66 in Mar/Apr and 68 in May. He did rebound with a 134 sOPS+ June in which he hit .313/.371/.488 (good for a .358 wOBA and 117 wRC+), but that was his only above average month at the plate.

Barmes tapered off to a still respectable 94 sOPS+ in July, but then fell off a cliff in August with a sOPS+ of 1 (yes, one). At that point, Jim Tracy had seen enough and replaced Barmes with Young full-time. In limited playing time as the season wound down, Barmes performed respectably in a reserve role. His first half sOPS+ was 96 and his second half sOPS+ was 44. Barmes was equally poor at home (83 sOPS+) and on the road (81), but he did hit lefties relatively well (102) though he really struggled against righthanders (73). In all, Barmes was worth 0.4 WAR due almost entirely to his positive defensive value as a middle infielder.

While Barmes was struggling in the early going, first Mora and then Young were called upon to play key roles. Each of them failed: Mora had a 91 sOPS+ at the position with bad defense at 2B, while EY2 put up a 91 sOPS+ in a limited sample before suffering a broken leg that kept him out for three months. Once EY2 was given the job full-time after his return from injury, he was much worse than in the first half, posting a meager second half sOPS+ of 62 over 152 PAs.

As a second baseman on the year, EY2's 60 sOPS+ was worse than Barmes' 72, while he also provided negative defensive value (-2.3 UZR) in admittedly small sample. As bad as he was at home (82 sOPS+), Young was flat out awful on the road (39 sOPS+), and the switch-hitter was bad against both lefties (52) and righties (68). Yes, he stole 17 bases, but he was pretty awful at getting on base (.312 OBP out of the leadoff spot). In all, Young finished with a woeful .244/.312/.285 line in 189 PAs (.281 wOBA, 65 wRC+). Yikes.

With all of this failure all around and the injury to Troy Tulowitzki in June, the man brought in as an injury replacement, Jonathan Herrera, performed better than any other Rockies second baseman this year. The most interesting part apart Herrera's year was that he got the most amount of credit for what he did when Tulowitzki was out, but it was during that time that he played his worst (or as I like to call it, probably where he'll end up if given the job for a full year in 2011).

During June, Herrera hit .279/.297/.292, which ends up a pretty bad .248 wOBA, 45 wRC+, and a 63 sOPS+. In other words, basically what he did in his 2008 call-up. Given consistent playing time despite this poor start (and lots of seeing eye singles), Herrera improved to a 98 sOPS+ in July (.323 wOBA, 93 wRC+) and even hit a home run. After Tulowitzki returned, Herrera was sent back to the minors for most of August but returned late in the month in a savvy move by Dan O'Dowd that preserved the last of Herrera's minor league options (less than 20 days were spent in the minors after Herrera had been placed on the 40 man roster). After that, he incredibly became an average offensive player (.329 wOBA, 97 wRC+, 106 sOPS+ in 65 Sept/Oct PAs).

To be honest, the fact that Herrera contributed a 93 sOPS+ and 0.7 WAR to the Rockies this year (roughly on pace for a league average 2 WAR over a full season) is one of the things that went miraculously right for Colorado this year. For that, Herrera's career year should be celebrated, even if it was mostly due to his success at Coors (106 sOPS+ at home, 75 on the road). Just don't expect it to happen again.

As for Chris Nelson, we can only wonder how he would have responded if he had been given more playing time at the major league level. His line at AAA (.317/.379/.498, .384 wOBA, 125 wRC+) certainly suggested great offensive potential for the former first round pick. In almost two months with the big club though (potentially costly ML service time), Nelson only saw action in 17 games (most as a pinch-runner), getting only 27 PAs. Yes, he stole home, but what else did Nelson do at the major league level? Nothing much (.280/.308/.320 in that small sample). As a result, Nelson is an unknown commodity at the major league level going into 2011.

 

Analysis

Given his contract status, Barmes is a no-doubt non-tender this offseason, though he could return for much less money in a utility role in 2011. In my opinion, that's always been the role Barmes was best suited to play anyways. If Mora does return, it probably won't be as an option for second base.

Meanwhile, Young, by virtue of playing THE WORST of any of the terrible second baseman for Colorado in 2010, is the early favorite to win the job going into 2011. I have yet to see Young distinguish himself in any way that makes him a decent option in my eyes. Young has one elite skill (his speed) but DOES NOT by any means belong anywhere near the starting job in 2011 and especially not at the leadoff spot in the lineup, not until his hitting improves, anyway.

Hopefully EY2 isn't Willy Taveras 2.0 (after all, he is still young, he did perform fairly well in the minors, and had the excuse of being injured this year), but the numbers he put up this year don't point to him succeeding at the big league level.

Herrera was magic last year, especially near the end of the year, but I have trouble seeing his success as anything but a fluke. Talent-wise, Herrera is a very poor man's Juan Pierre (without the speed but with a better arm), the kind of utility player that is great to have as a 25th man late inning defensive replacement but not great if he's your starting second baseman. There's just no offensive projection there at all. If he does play in 2011 at a rate much greater than the one 25th man Omar Quintanilla played in 2009, Colorado is probably in trouble.

Without a question the player with the highest ceiling of the three primary in-house candidates for the 2011 second base job, Chris Nelson is a man in limbo. The Rockies' brass obviously didn't trust the former shortstop to play over the others this year, perhaps because of his injury history (though by that token they should also be suspicious of EY2) or an over-emphasis on "the little things" provided by Herrera or maybe even because they fell dangerously in love with the pure speed of Young.

Whatever the case, despite his talent and numbers Nelson hasn't had the opportunity at the big league level to succeed the way that both Herrera and Young have. That's why most are placing Nelson third in the pecking order in the fight for the starting job and why they see him returning to AAA to begin 2011. Unfortunately, I think that's what is going to happen.

If EY2 or Herrera is starting at second for Colorado in 2011, we will most likely be settling for a below average offensive player (again) at second base. With Nelson, there's a decent chance that the result could be much closer to acceptable offensively for the position. Or the Rockies could choose to go the free agency route with a player like Orlando Hudson for what will likely be an expensive marginal update.

I say give the keys to Nelson and see what he can do with them. Yes, there is definitely the possibility that he flops, but it could hardly be much worse than the performance of the Rockies' second basemen in 2010.

Next Up...Third Base

Comment 59 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

EY2 and Nelson should be on the roster all year

one of these two should become a 290/370/400 type hitter at the major league level add Barmes in a super utility role and sign Nady or trade for Willingham and fill the LF/1B issues

Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have? Frank Chance 1908

by TomCat009 on Oct 27, 2010 2:16 PM MDT reply actions  

What about Herrera?

You can’t completely ignore the season he had.

Yeah, my username says it all.

by CentralCaliRox on Oct 27, 2010 2:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yes we can!

It’s pretty easy once you look at his career minor league numbers and see that he was way over his head.

by deacs on Oct 27, 2010 2:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

I hope we can!

But he has no trade value because he’s not even a AAAA player.

by deacs on Oct 27, 2010 2:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

???

Untrue.

Yeah, my username says it all.

by CentralCaliRox on Oct 27, 2010 2:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

Herrera's career AAA OPS = .699

His 450 ABs at AAA in 2009 produced a .692 OPS.

by deacs on Oct 27, 2010 2:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

I actually like him as a bench player

As a starter, no way.

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 28, 2010 1:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

The kid sure got on base an awful lot though.

Strikeouts are boring - besides that, they're fascist. Throw some more groundballs. Its more democratic. - Crash Davis

by DAWNMARIE01 on Oct 27, 2010 4:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

That would make no sense, as an audit consists of looking at what has occurred, not what will occur.

Hence, Melvin Mora will play a prominent role.

The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Oct 27, 2010 2:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

Woah

We don’t all work for KPMG.

by deacs on Oct 27, 2010 2:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

I was only kidding

Of course I knew Mora would be in there a lot. I just feel next year should be all Ian Stewart.

Yeah, my username says it all.

by CentralCaliRox on Oct 27, 2010 2:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

Is Barmes totally out at second ?

Maybe the new hitting coach could work with him ? Defensively he appeared much better than the others to me. Why would he be good as a utility man if he is such a poor hitter ?

by butterfly on Oct 27, 2010 2:35 PM MDT reply actions  

You said it yourself, he's a great defender.

Plays all over the field. That’s really all you want in a utility guy.

Yeah, my username says it all.

by CentralCaliRox on Oct 27, 2010 2:40 PM MDT up reply actions  

Late-inning defensive replacement

or someone to start once a week when the groundballest of groundballers is on the mound.

by deacs on Oct 27, 2010 2:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

Presumably.

He wouldn’t play SS or 3B, and hopefully he won’t be an upgrade at first.

by deacs on Oct 27, 2010 2:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks deacs and GoRockies,

For some reason I just couldn’t get this approach straight in my mind. Now it makes sense ! My old brain is tired I guess. :)

by butterfly on Oct 27, 2010 3:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

To further clarify: he could be a late-inning sub at 3rd, SS or 1st, I just don’t see him making a start anywhere but second.

by deacs on Oct 27, 2010 3:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

2B Audit

EY2: Does O’Dowd have the guts to trade an EY away from this franchise? Nope….I see him as the AAA starting 2B.
Herrera: He is gone - should use him as part of a trade package for any other deal. He is good contact hitter and a decent fielder. Unfortunately, there are alot of those infielders in the major leagues so I question is trade value except as minor part of package.
Barmes: Let’s not dismiss his stellar defense at SS when Tulo was out. If he gets a great offer from another team, he should take it. Otherwise, if he is reasonable in re-signing, Rox should do it.
Nelson: Can he be the starting 2B? I agree that he should be the frontrunner in 2011. With Barmes as backup, Rox will be OK.

This assumes we do not make a MAJOR upgrade trade at 2B. Frankly, I think an outfield bat is a more likely position upgrade.

But here is the problem with the article’s analysis: We need a 2B that gets on base! Look at the Rox lineup! If O’Dowd is rightly looking for another power bat (and he SHOULD be), then that player is not for #1 or #2 in the lineup. So….what other player (other than Dexter) is that high OBP player in the lineup? Assuming we stick with Stewart (see below), and a new catcher is not an OBP/speed guy, the Rox are left with the same top of the order problem.

By the way, in anticipation of the 3B analysis, I am not a Ian Stewart fan. While not an exact match, he is a Barmes’-like player in my humble opinion. It wlll become obvious after a couple more years of fanning at the plate, and most everyone have remorse about his failure in trying to “develop.” But O’Dowd will likely stick with him because he was a high organization pick and to give time to Lansford as the new hitting coach to turn him around. That is OK, I suppose, but all the more reason that Rox can’t ignore the 2B position as a high OBP guy.

by RoxSox on Oct 27, 2010 4:31 PM MDT reply actions  

I bet you a Klondike bar you will eat your words about Ian Stewart after 2011. A freaking KLONDIKE BAR!

Yeah, my username says it all.

by CentralCaliRox on Oct 27, 2010 5:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

Deal.

Yeah, my username says it all.

by CentralCaliRox on Oct 27, 2010 5:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

Nelson had a .379 OBP last year in AAA. Is that high enough for you?

That’s the thing about Nelson — he really does profile as that top of the order guy but also gives you the bonus of power potential.

As for Stewart, you and I have a different opinion of his abilities, but I think next year he’s at worst a league average player.

The writer formerly known as Jabberwocky
READ and LEARN about the business of baseball at Purple Row Academy
Eschew Obfuscation!

by Jeff Aberle on Oct 28, 2010 1:20 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't trust Nelson's OBP numbers from last year in AAA becasue he played in Colorado Springs

His career minor league OBP is .342 and it’s never been higher than .357 on any level before he came to CS. Worse yet is that his home OBP this season was .412 while it was just .335 on the road.

I have yet to see anything that shows Nelson can be a high OBP guy outside of the Springs.

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 28, 2010 2:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

A .355 - .360 OBP

could be pretty valuable for us.

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Oct 28, 2010 2:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree

I just don’t see Nelson giving us that

Yankee Haters Encouragement Group Member #1

by RhodeIslandRoxfan on Oct 28, 2010 3:21 PM MDT up reply actions  

if

and its a big if, if Nelson bats .280 at the big league level and he maintains a 9% walk rate, he would give us about a .350 OBP (through around 550 plate appearances). But who knows how he transitions though.

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Oct 28, 2010 3:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

Does anyone else think

that Fowler will be the key to what happens at 2nd base next year? Seems like the long look they are giving EY is primarily because the team is grasping for a leadoff hitter. Carlos has obviously slugged his way out of any further consideration for that role, leaving CF and 2B as the only positions at which this team really has any speed. If Fowler would make better contact, look less overmatched at the plate, and establish himself as more of a base stealing threat, I think the team would be more inclined to go with Nelson or Herrera, or some combination of the two, at 2B and bat them wherever they fit best. But if Fowler doesn’t show some progress at a leadoff man, EY’s leash gets a little longer.

by Rockpile Interloper on Oct 27, 2010 4:37 PM MDT reply actions  

This is an interesting point

along the lines of RoxSox’s OBP point above. It seems to me that Fowler is not, yet, a top of the order bat. Somebody has to be. In my ideal world, we’d land a legit 4-hole hitter to play OF, and move Tulo to the 2-spot. Still leaves the problem of 1-spot though.

The 2b/1-spot issue may be the defining point of the offseason for DOD, given the unlikelihood of a true impact bat coming in, and the increasingly-boring “which catcher is not worse” debate. We have what seems like a lot of options, but its kind of illusory since none of these guys can be relied upon with any confidence. I echo the prevailing view that the best case is Nelson grabbing the job and running with it, but if he doesn’t get a fair shake and/or he isn’t good, we’re just grasping at straws with the myriad of weaknesses among the rest of the candidates. Very concerning, given the likely fact that the winner is going to be hitting at the top of the order.

by Teekalong on Oct 27, 2010 4:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

Sorry but I don't see Tulo

being displaced as the #4-hole hitter, not as long as the Rockies are unwilling to consider acquiring a full-time first baseman. If they are as hell-bent on a multiposition player as they seem to be, finding one that can hit cleanup is a pretty tall order.

As far the starting 2B batting leadoff, I only see that happening if it’s EY. Maybe Nelson projects as a leadoff man, but I’ve never sensed that’s what the Rockies have in mind for him. And while I’m a bigger fan of Herrera than most here are, I don’t see him leading off except in a real pinch. Could maybe see either of them hitting in the #2 hole though, if Fowler steps up his game and becomes the leadoff man.

by Rockpile Interloper on Oct 27, 2010 5:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

MM could be an option for high in the order

How about Mora? The man has a bat and play almost anywhere on the field. For an old guy he is still pretty fast.

by Real Perspective on Oct 28, 2010 12:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

Does anyone else think

it might be worth it to bat CarGo second, Tulo 3rd, and Stewart or whoever 4th?

I feel like there’s a lot of preoccupation with finding a suitable #2 hitter. Since we really don’t have one, I’d rather we get our strongest hitters the most at-bats possible…

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Oct 27, 2010 6:47 PM MDT reply actions  

yea

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Oct 28, 2010 2:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

I would be totally in favor of that,

if the guy hitting behind Tulo is a legitimate cleanup hitter. But if it’s just going to be Melvin Mora by default, probably not.

I agree with your point, however, that teams sometimes get fixated on finding a stereotypical #2 hitter instead of just putting somebody in the #2 hole who can swing it.

Not sure how Stewart would respond to being a cleanup hitter. While I think the guy is gushing with untapped ability and big-time power, at this point I can’t say it sounds very promising.

by Rockpile Interloper on Oct 27, 2010 8:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

per your logic

your strongest hitters, per wOBA/OPS should bat 2nd and 4th, where the more OBP heavy of the two bats 2, the SLG heavy bats 4. Reason being is that the 3 hole comes up with empty bases too often, and basically the cleanup gets the most drive-runs-in opportunities.

by Andrew Martin on Oct 27, 2010 11:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yea, I remember reading about that idea lineup stuff

Last year, Tulo and Cargo were basically identical with OBP and IsoP. I guess I’d bat Cargo 2 then because he’s faster?

So with this stuff in mind, would you bat Cargo/Tulo or Tulo/Cargo as 2 and 3, OR would you separate Cargo and Tulo and bat Stewart 3rd since it’s the weaker spot?

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Oct 28, 2010 3:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

A contrarian view...

 I agree we need an OBP guy for leadoff and that supposes a base stealer. I am willing to forgo the base stealer if who ever hits first, firsts gets on base. IMHO EY2 is the big loser here. He has no position and does not get on base. If he can learn to in AAA; he might become a professional pinch runner. If Nelson is a good enough contact hitter and has a good enough eye for balls/strikes; then he doesn’t have to steal a lot of bases to set the table.
  Dex did not seem that adept at moveing runners and did not get on base enough to lead off or hit number two. The three people on the team last season who worked best at moveing runners to scoreing position were our three best role players. Mora, Spilly, and Herrera. That said; as much as love these guys; none of them are every day players. Barmes for all his power does not get on base enough either to hit second either.

  Without an OBP guy at the top of the line up you are limiting Cargo and Tulo’s RBI opportunity. Todd and Seth both project to me as number six hitters and Stewart is too streaky to hit number five. So what does that leave? Answer a Roster with too many holes to fix with just one bat. As far as CDI and Miggy are concerned; I hope nobody considers them
two hole or leadoff hitters so that point is mute.
   
  Unless you get both a Willingham/ Swisher type to hit behind Tulo he’ll get too many IBB’s and if you don’t get an OBP guy up top you have nobody to drive in. You need to trade either Stewart or CDI to get both.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Oct 27, 2010 11:59 PM MDT reply actions  

if you don’t get an OBP guy up top you have nobody to drive in. You need to trade either Stewart or CDI to get both.

Proven, perhaps. Though not even that (that’s what prospects are for). A little progression by Stewart and Fowler fit those roles fine. Like it or not, mid-market GM’s have to bank on the farm contributing big-time pieces sometimes.

I agree Herrera was better at situational hitting, but are you aware that Fowler’s OBP was just 5 points lower than Herrera’s? It’s safe to say Fowler is likely a better OBP candidate moving forward given their work over the last five years, and I’d value OBP more than bunting, productive groundouts with the sluggers hitting 3-4

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Oct 28, 2010 12:06 AM MDT up reply actions  

I wasn't pushing Herrera over Dex and just said Herrera wasn't an every day player.

 I said Herrera is better at advancing runners tha Dex. I’d rather have better OBP from contact hitting than either of them. What we need is for Nelson to be a young Polanco and get on base by never giving up an AB. I don’t know if he can do it; because I haven’t seen enough to tell.

 By your logic Herrera can’t ever develope. What makes you think that CDI’s line this year isn’t the real him and 2008 wasn’t a fluke ?! There is some reason Tracy isn’t playing him and I think more than one. As for Stewart PHLP left enough questions about him and infered that others on the team are in the same boat. That’s why Lansford was brought back. The farm must contribute and I agree. I just don’t see how you get 2b, 1b, lead off and the two hole and a five hole hitter all in one player or with both CDI, Stewart and Todd all on the same team.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Oct 28, 2010 12:39 AM MDT reply actions  

You're right, there definitely has to be someone acquired

Because best case scenario is Fowler becomes a leadoff hitter, Nelson blossoms into a fantastic rookie two hole hitter and Stewart finally takes a huge jump. We can agree there’s a small possibility of all three occurring at once, and if there isn’t a big production leap from Nelson and/or Stewart, 1B will be a huge liability. One player like a Willingham could make the difference there, and the offense should be viable.

And that’s the plan we have to live with. If we presume the contention window is for three more seasons, trading away big league pieces with potential cannot help. Helton’s not going anywhere. There isn’t a very good hitting catcher available. And Stewart’s greatest value is the potential to become a stud himself allowing us to use free money to address other issues. I suppose it depends on how likely you feel that jump is, but really, the only way to have two big new bats next year is to acquire one and hope Stewart becomes one. Stew can’t be traded for a big bat any more proven than himself.

Essentially, I’m saying the only way (not even selling out the farm, because of raised payroll) to have huge improvements in the lineup is to stick with the upside guys and supplement with outside help.

As for Iannetta, I don’t think 2008 was the real him. Nor do I think 2010 was either. He was pretty unlucky in 2010 and pretty lucky in 2008. He’s probably somewhere in the middle. While I think he’s underrated by those who value batting average and contact most, I by no means have blinded faith that he will return to be a significant force as a starter. There’s reason to believe he can, but I have doubts just like everyone else.

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Oct 28, 2010 1:16 AM MDT up reply actions  

Just out of curiosity

why do you think Iannetta was lucky in 2008?

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Oct 28, 2010 3:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

BABIP>lg avg and BABIP>xBABIP

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Oct 28, 2010 3:53 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

oooo

by a lot in both cases?

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Oct 28, 2010 4:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

Stewart and CDI are the only two tradeable position players we have that still might have an upside for someone elsewhere.

Stewart has holes to fix and his splits suggest to me he won’t fully blossom till he leaves Coors. I have given up on CDI personally, but understand the statistical arguement of his admirers. Right now if either being traded could get me a proven 1 or 2 hole hitter and we acquire an FA #5 hitter or number 3 or 4 hitter that could drop Cargo to 5; I’m for it.

 Niether of them would probably go alone in a trade. Both Nelson and Herrera can play third if need be as could Barmes and Mora if either is retained. I could live with a platoon there if not a L/R one. That would take some of the pressure off Nelson to be great from the git. I am also intriuged by the idea of Cargo being a second leadoff at the 5 hole and bigtime protection for the 3 and 4 hole.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Oct 28, 2010 9:44 AM MDT reply actions  

Agreed. Stewart and CDI are definitely tradeable. Can we get anything in trade for Barmes? I like Herrera. He has been around long enough to be properly evlauted and looks fine. But I do not think we have seen enough of Nelson to bank on him. I agree that EY2 would do us more good from a AAA slot. I would hope someone has enough sense to hang on to Mora.

by Real Perspective on Oct 28, 2010 12:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

Do you really think it makes more sense

to trade Stewart and hang onto Mora?

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Oct 28, 2010 3:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

One thing that I think is funny

is that everyone is talking about how we need much better on-base ability out of the leadoff spot, and I’d bet we’d all be happy with Carl Crawford as our leadoff hitter. But Crawford’s career OBP is .338, and his last 4 healthy seasons has been .355 as an average. Fowler this past year was at .347 and the year before was at .363, which you guessed it, averages out to .355. (And just for the record, once Jose Reyes really hit is stride, he was averaging a .355 OBP as well)

That’s not to say that Fowler and Crawford are equivalent, but it is to say that I think that if we batted Dexter leadoff all year, we’d get a .350 OBP from him which isn’t so bad and is a similar OBP to what these amazing leadoff hitters produce. Also, if Dexter makes some small improvements, like say he bats .275 (still not that amazing) next year, we’re looking at a guy who could provide a .360-.370 OBP which would be pretty excellent.

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Oct 28, 2010 3:22 PM MDT reply actions  

thank you for this

I don’t understand everyone’s short leash on Dex

"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious." - Albert Einstein

by Andrew T. Fisher on Oct 28, 2010 3:54 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

Both him and Stewart man

Rather than acknowledge the positives and that they’re above average, cheap assets with a lot of upside who did actually improve this year, everyone seems more willing to harp on them for not being Tim Raines and Scott Rolen…

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Oct 28, 2010 4:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

I am not trying to trade Dex and there is room for him to mature.

  There is a lot to like in Dex, but I’m starting to see a ceiling closer to Scott Posednik’s at the plate. He’d be even better defensively if he ran some better routes. Some of his routes have improved. At the moment I’m more comfortable with him batting eighth or ninth than at the top.

 Stewart is a plus defender at third and there is no denying his power. If he doesn’t improve his pitch recognition and alter his approach to outside pitches; he will not improve. Can he grow into it? I think this year will tell if the Rox think so.

  I admit that I’m a CDI hater so call me irational. I see multipe problems. A lot of them are subtle and nuanced to me in a way I find very grateing because Chris is supposed to be so smart. I wish Jamie Quirk was still here to teach him. He’s my version of “Bush derangement syndrome”.
  
   Bottom line they are intechangable parts and not the core of the team. My big problem with the Roster as currently constructed is we seam to have a team of number six hitters and and we have too many of them. The exceptions are Cargo, Tulo, Spilly, and a lesser extent Mora. Dex and Herrera are below average at the top of order but need to be at either end of the order to do what they do best.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Oct 29, 2010 1:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

I followed you fairly well

until this part

My big problem with the Roster as currently constructed is we seam to have a team of number six hitters and and we have too many of them. The exceptions are Cargo, Tulo, Spilly, and a lesser extent Mora.

If I’m reading that sentence correctly, the players that we have that are better than #6 hitters include Spilly and Mora? If so, I totally disagree about them.

"These are thin mints. I put them in the freezer. My favorites. So good."
--Reds outfielder Adam Dunn, on the girl scout cookies he keeps in his locker

by Resolution on Oct 29, 2010 4:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

Spilly and

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Oct 30, 2010 12:06 AM MDT up reply actions  

Spilly and Mora hit whereever they are put.

They are not everyday players though. in that sense you are right. They would not be my first choice as three and four hitters; put they have both produced there for short periods of time. They have been the least sensitive to role changes at the plate recently not named Tulo and Cargo.

"Why are they outlawin' the spit pitch? The curveball is a cheap 'n easy pitch; the spitter aint" Ty Cobb
"When I was pitching 90's in the seventies; I never thought I'd be pitching 70's in the nineties!" Frank Tanana

by Oldfoagie on Oct 30, 2010 12:14 AM MDT up reply actions  

I'd love to see Nelson get a legit shot with the big league club.

I’m not at all sold on EYJR based on what we saw the last two years, and I think Herrera is a utility guy long term.

As long as they don’t try to stick Barmes back in the starting spot, it’ll be progress in the thought process of the front office, IMO. Barmes would be a good utility player, but nothing more. That’s what he always should be/should have been.

As for Dex and Stewart, I give them all of next year to see how they develop at the least. Giving up on either of them at this point would be a big mistake.

by blooming rock on Oct 29, 2010 10:39 AM MDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about the Colorado Rockies, established 28 April 2005.

Community Guidelines
RockiesRoster.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Kheditorshot_small
Sitting down with Tulsa Drillers co-closer Coty Woods
2rr10yf_small
Death By Underachievement
N63804317_31527791_2216_small
The Cause of Our Hitting Woes
Kheditorshot_small
Sitting down with Tulsa Drillers first baseman Kiel Roling
Small
This is how the Rockies should look like
Img_1229_small
PRMLB May Thread
Goatee
Purple Row Pick 6
Small
xBABIP part 2
Carloscover_small
Predicting wins with basic stats
12895243481351292663_1_f2092652_small
These guys are hard to take...

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Yahoo_full_count

Colorado Sports Blogs

Mile High Report (Denver Broncos)
Mile High Hockey (Colorado Avalanche)
Denver Stiffs (Denver Nuggets)
Burgundy Wave (Colorado Rapids)
The Ralphie Report (CU Buffaloes)
SB Nation Denver

Top 30 PuRPs

  1. Drew Pomeranz, LHP - AAA
  2. Nolan Arenado, 3B - AA
  3. Wilin Rosario, C - MLB
  4. Chad Bettis, RHP - AA DL
  5. Tyler Matzek, A (Adv)
  6. Alex White, MLB
  7. Kyle Parker, OF - A (Adv)
  8. Tim Wheeler, OF - AAA DL
  9. Josh Rutledge, SS - AA
  10. Charlie Blackmon, OF - AAA DL
  11. Rosell Herrera, SS/3B - A
  12. Trevor Story, SS/3B - A
  13. Edwar Cabrera, LHP - AA
  14. Tyler Anderson, LHP - A
  15. Rafael Ortega, OF - A (Adv)
  16. Peter Tago, RHP, unassigned
  17. Christian Friedrich, LHP - MLB
  18. Joe Gardner, RHP - AA
  19. Corey Dickerson, OF - A (Adv)
  20. Thomas Field, 2B - AAA
  21. Will Swanner, C - A
  22. Kent Matthes, OF - AA
  23. Albert Campos, RHP - released (4/19/12)
  24. Jordan Pacheco, C/UT - MLB
  25. Cristhian Adames, SS - A (Adv)
  26. Ben Paulsen, 1B - AA
  27. Josh Slaats, RHP - A (Adv)
  28. David Kandilas, CF - A
  29. Jayson Aquino, LHP - unassigned
  30. Hector Gomez, SS - DL
HM:
Edgmer Escalona, RHP - MLB
Dillon Thomas, OF - unassigned
Sam Mende, IF - A
Mike Zuanich, 1B - AA
Dan Houston, RHP - AA

updated 10/25/2011.


Managers

Rox_girl_small Rox Girl

35l7yvb_small Andrew Martin

Staff

Jeff_aberle_small Jeff Aberle

No_bunting_small Bryan Kilpatrick

Avatar2_small Andrew T. Fisher

Wittgenstein_small Greg Stanwood

Special Assistants to the GM

Rockies_lost_americana_small holly96

2rr10yf_small RhodeIslandRoxfan

Pic2_small CBake33

Image_small Rafael Rojas Cremonesi